3rd-Person View
Vman
Join Date: 2007-09-11 Member: 62251Members
Join Date: 2007-09-11 Member: 62251Members
<div class="IPBDescription">A Small Optional and highly suggested idea</div><u><i><b>Being stated before</b></i></u> which i have noticed people have wanted it or compleatly hated it. For me a 3rd person view would be superb at certain times. It could be a optional-Zoom in and out Camera that would allow you to set it yourself or leave it alone as a 1st person view camera. Yes there would be problems, but a over the shoulder camera shouldent hurt too much.
I would love for a way to be able to implament this without seeing so many exploitable "Look around the corner with my camera!" people using it like that. I realize that problem but I still say we need Third person view. NOT as a default! as a option.
I would love for a way to be able to implament this without seeing so many exploitable "Look around the corner with my camera!" people using it like that. I realize that problem but I still say we need Third person view. NOT as a default! as a option.
Comments
There are two problems I have with TPV:
1.) TPV camera in a small enclosed place
2.) Having to smoothly switch between TPV and FPV when going from melee to mvt abilities(which happens very fast)
Some people take issue with 3.) being able to look around walls, but I see that more as a benefit.
<!--quoteo(post=1674424:date=Mar 27 2008, 03:56 PM:name=spellman23)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(spellman23 @ Mar 27 2008, 03:56 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1674424"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->already on another thread.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I guess you didn't see my first 3 words sir.
Also, if you want TPV for melee purposes then I'm going to have to disabuse you of that idea. The depth in Aliens' playstyle is not in their melee attacks - in fact there's very little depth to it, they're mere tools, you get close enough, you chomp/slice/gore - instead, it's in their movement abilities and speed of movement. There's no melee system to speak of as there is only one function - attack. It's not like a fighting game where there are hundreds of variations of different attacks and combos (where it is important to see how your character moves, and how your opponent moves and how their character responds to your attacks).
However, there are two advantages (or rather, solutions to disadvantages), which may actually be necessary; much better spatial awareness and depth perception. You can see more of what's going on around you, and you can know if you're within biting/slashing distance or not. But again, that has very little to do with "melee combat"; but rather, it eases the difficulty of LANDING melee attacks - that is, better allowing you to actually USE the only weapons that Aliens have. But there are other, perhaps less effective, solutions to either of these problems (eg. simulating depth perception through artificial visual indicators of distance [close enough to bite], and simulating periphery of vision or spatial awareness through artificial visual indicators of proximity to enemies [close marine is to your right/left]).
That's why. You can't ignore the facts by creating another thread. Over the shoulder camera wouldn't be much use for aliens and I doubt you could aim that good as a marine. You would for example have difficulty tracking anything moving below the waist level of your marine.
You think.
1.) People will always be looking around corners
True. But this could add to the ambush/suspense factor, and as i stated you can switch from first person view to third person view.
2.)It wont be optional/switchable
In my idea i clearly stated that what i wanted it to be was optional; you guys shouldent knock down the idea before it takes off.
3.) Marine third person view failure!
Yea, and no. When aiming yes, when looking around no. Why give aliens a look around and not the marines? Which adds to my it should be "Switch-able" Idea from 3rd person to First.
4.) as far as tracking things
In most 3rd person views you can look UP and DOWN and LEFT and RIGHT. All directions even in 3rd person, zooming in and out might also be a great idea.
...
I don't think you guys even read my thread, you just see the subject title and go omfg, then skim through it :\
I'm not trying to sound like im 100% right on this idea, yes there is problems, but you never learn unless you try.
And I don't think you read our replies. We've already addressed every aspect of your idea in our replies.
And i answered them, if i missed a few please! be the god you are and tell me Harimau!
So instead of spamming one new thread per hour, how about searching for threads already attending these ideas and discussions and just bump them to restart discussion about a certain idea/topic.
Seriously, we need another Zunni and a I&S FAQ listing all the posted or already rejected ideas.
True. But this could add to the ambush/suspense factor, and as i stated you can switch from first person view to third person view.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
The whole point of parasite is to see where marines are going and to make ambushing easier. Why allow people to just peek around corners if the parasite ambushing is more teamwork oriented and creates interesting situations here and there? Who cares if its optional as long as the enemy spots you before you are in his line of sight.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->2.)It wont be optional/switchable
In my idea i clearly stated that what i wanted it to be was optional; you guys shouldent knock down the idea before it takes off.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
See the above
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->3.) Marine third person view failure!
Yea, and no. When aiming yes, when looking around no. Why give aliens a look around and not the marines? Which adds to my it should be "Switch-able" Idea from 3rd person to First.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Why not look around in the 1st person? Its much quicker and easier to shoot from there. Unless you want to peek around the corners of course.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->4.) as far as tracking things
In most 3rd person views you can look UP and DOWN and LEFT and RIGHT. All directions even in 3rd person, zooming in and out might also be a great idea.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I highly doubt you can keep a track of a cele skulk that's running on the ground right in front of your character, assuming that you even have a line of sight through the body of your marine, not to speak of shooting at it.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I don't think you guys even read my thread, you just see the subject title and go omfg, then skim through it :\
I'm not trying to sound like im 100% right on this idea, yes there is problems, but you never learn unless you try.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
You forgot the fact that there's not a single well working 3rd person camera for cramped indoor locations, that ns is all about. In my opinion its better to focus on something else than a revolutionary 3rd person camera. Its a small dev team after all.
As for the skulk positioning on walls, it might be a nice to have some kind of a solution, but I think the downsides are way over the positive ones here. The only thing I feel uncomfortable is the skulk positioning while biting the rt. The rest is quite easy to figure out I think. At least I don't recall getting spotted because my skulk is in some weird position and exposed to marine fire.
So instead of spamming one new thread per hour, how about searching for threads already attending these ideas and discussions and just bump them to restart discussion about a certain idea/topic.
Seriously, we need another Zunni and a I&S FAQ listing all the posted or already rejected ideas.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Sorry pSyk0mAn yea i missed the other thread, so why do people have to flame me for it? its not like my thread is a exact copy of theirs, mine is just as good and i don't see their post up at all. (I don't use the forums search feature allot)
<!--quoteo(post=1674537:date=Mar 28 2008, 11:39 AM:name=Bacillus)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Bacillus @ Mar 28 2008, 11:39 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1674537"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->The whole point of parasite is to see where marines are going and to make ambushing easier. Why allow people to just peek around corners if the parasite ambushing is more teamwork oriented and creates interesting situations here and there? Who cares if its optional as long as the enemy spots you before you are in his line of sight.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
While i could say that the marines dont have parasite that easily could be knocked down by motion tracking. I know my idea has allot of flaws but what is the sence of NOT being able to look around corners? You are right on allot of things but still.
<!--quoteo(post=1674537:date=Mar 28 2008, 11:39 AM:name=Bacillus)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Bacillus @ Mar 28 2008, 11:39 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1674537"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Why not look around in the 1st person? Its much quicker and easier to shoot from there. Unless you want to peek around the corners of course.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Yea it would be hard, and peeking around corners is the most usefull thing that could come of 3rd person view other than having a secondary view-point which would really help reduce the feeling of being closed in by walls.
Yes i know this game isnt a vast-open field and being in vents at 3rd person view is hard. But just to get a look around with it would be helpful. The combat use of 3rd person view for THIS game is highly strained, i dont think it would work for combat but just on the basis of glancing around your position.
<!--quoteo(post=1674537:date=Mar 28 2008, 11:39 AM:name=Bacillus)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Bacillus @ Mar 28 2008, 11:39 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1674537"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I highly doubt you can keep a track of a cele skulk that's running on the ground right in front of your character, assuming that you even have a line of sight through the body of your marine, not to speak of shooting at it.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
As i added above it could be used for a look around.
<!--quoteo(post=1674537:date=Mar 28 2008, 11:39 AM:name=Bacillus)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Bacillus @ Mar 28 2008, 11:39 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1674537"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->You forgot the fact that there's not a single well working 3rd person camera for cramped indoor locations, that ns is all about. In my opinion its better to focus on something else than a revolutionary 3rd person camera. Its a small dev team after all.
As for the skulk positioning on walls, it might be a nice to have some kind of a solution, but I think the downsides are way over the positive ones here. The only thing I feel uncomfortable is the skulk positioning while biting the rt. The rest is quite easy to figure out I think. At least I don't recall getting spotted because my skulk is in some weird position and exposed to marine fire.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I noticed this, and yes i realize that Ns as i stated before isn't a vast open valley. Yes they could focus on other things, and you do make a very good point. I guess 3rd person view in most standards is completely useless in this game...
The only use i would say would to be look around but that would really be game changing if you think about it.
<b>Thx for the post.</b>
Also, I wouldn't say it's been rejected, just that overall, as someone else mentioned, it appeared the costs outweighed the benefits. It allows better awareness peripherally (more like in real life) and helps gauge melee attacks better (see JK2: Jedi Outcast). However, tight quarters and peeking around corners are serious drawback when a large portion of the game is in close cramped halls and surprise ambushes are key.
?? I don't understand what that example demonstrates, considering NS doesn't really have any melee system to speak of while the Jedi Knight series does.
Also, that it helps gauge melee attacks is only half-true: it helps gauge distance, or enables 'depth perception' - which is necessary to use the single-use melee attacks that are the only weapons that aliens possess. (But it's not completely true because NS doesn't have a melee system, and Aliens' strength/depth lies in their speed/freedom of movement / movement abilities, rather than their melee attacks)
But like I've said, there are (less effective) artificial solutions to simulate either 'depth perception' or rather why it's important: "biting range" - OR 'spatial awareness' / 'periphery of vision' or rather "tracking marines". So long as these are somehow implemented, third person view has very little practical use.
mousewheel should do a good trick for smooth transitions, as well as auto 1st person view for vents
looking around corners shouldnt be a problem since you can already hear through walls with pinpoint accuracy
And here:
<a href="http://www.unknownworlds.com/ns2/forums/index.php?showtopic=103898" target="_blank">Who loves the skulk in mouth view?</a>
Others have already listed its benefits in this thread, so I will just jump to the one that seems to be over looked:
Cover
When you are a Kharaa, marines have huge ranged advantages on you, and one of the most frustrating is when you model / hit box <b>unintentionally</b> sticks out from behind cover or your hiding spot where you are planning to ambush from. If you could see if your Kharaa lifeform sticks out from somewhere, you would move to somewhere that provides better cover, yes? That has to be the single best benefit to TPV for a melee centric gameplay vs ranged centric gameplay, being able to minimize your risk to being shot at and avoid detection till you are close enough to use your talents and tools.
On parasite and TPV corner peeking, I don't think 'peeking' negates something that can improve information for the whole team across the map, rather it could just be considered an extension of Kharaa's good senses or Marine's technology. Even if there wasn't TPV, as a NS player, I always thought it was a bit remiss that I couldn't lean left or right to peek around a corner in that fashion, just so I could avoid detection hopefully by exposing as little of my character as possible.
As Harimau nicely pointed out, there are First Person View (FPV) solutions to spatial awareness in melee, such as a cursor that gives you an awareness if a person is within range for an attack and highlights showing which direction to turn to continue to engage a marine up close - this can even extend to cover, by way of showing a hand or appendage that rests against the surface of your cover to show you are behind it but goes away once you 'stick out'. And now that I think of it, it really would be more work in animations, art assets, and Graphical User Interface indicators than just using the models and animations you were going to use anyways because other players are going to see your character and visa versa while in FPV.
Is the vent really that much of a problem? Assuming the TPV camera isn't floating too far behind the NS character, say a maximum distance of just 'over the shoulder', then what would be so bad to having the model of the player's character go opaque, a see through outline, that can be seen through to easily see through the model while in vents or other close spaces.
Another benefit of TPV is 'up/down' awareness. Sure, you can flip the model any which way you want, but you never lose awareness of what is considered the wall, the floor and the ceiling. I would find wall walking considerably more intuitive (aka get disoriented less) in TPV:
<a href="http://www.unknownworlds.com/ns2/2007/12/skulk_view_rotation_from_the_archives" target="_blank">Look near the end of this video, be honest, which view makes stomach lurch more? And doesn't it look cool to watch your skulk breath & run? Can you get a better idea where the lil guy can hide?</a>
When I brought up smooth transitions I meant leap-bite and blink-slash. It's going to look very jerky at best and not work at worst. M-Wheel wouldn't cut it without a script and that's something the devs want to avoid(not all scripts but forcing players to script for movement).