Development Blog Update - Unknown Worlds Podcast #17



  • LenardLenard Join Date: 2008-02-12 Member: 63636Members
    edited February 2008
    <img src="" border="0" class="linked-image" />
  • RoCityRoCity Join Date: 2006-12-06 Member: 58930Members, Constellation
    edited February 2008
    Awesome news! Im exited!
    Would be nice that if the commander selected you and gives a waypoint, you can see a transparent route directing you were to go. Good for new maps, and gives alot more direction and motivation to move in the right direction. ( Like a blue transparent line )
  • BuzzouBuzzou Join Date: 2006-12-14 Member: 59056Members, Constellation
    lol lenard <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/smile-fix.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":)" border="0" alt="smile-fix.gif" />
  • RideRide Join Date: 2003-11-11 Member: 22511Members
    mmmh, teacher babblers who jump into the hud. i like!
  • BigDBigD [OldF] Join Date: 2002-10-25 Member: 1596Members
    <!--quoteo(post=1670320:date=Feb 12 2008, 04:38 PM:name=Buzzou)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Buzzou @ Feb 12 2008, 04:38 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1670320"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->lol lenard <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/smile-fix.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":)" border="0" alt="smile-fix.gif" /><!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
  • afratnikovafratnikov Join Date: 2003-08-05 Member: 18931Members
    Tutorial video: that's a good idea! Charlie and Max already have a lot of experience at doing podcasts, so they would just need to record a game-play video and comment on it. It could be developers' comments like in all HL2 games, except it wouldn't be interactive (which isn't too big a loss). People could choose to listen to it if they're interested or just play NS2.

    @ invader Zim: It would be safe to assume that players will be familiar with the FPS genre. People playing NS would at least have heard of HL2 and would have tried it. The 2 ppl for whom NS2 will be the first FPS - they will have to learn. I always hated tutorials (also in RTS games) that teach me how to use mouse and direction keys.
  • UncleCrunchUncleCrunch Mayonnaise land Join Date: 2005-02-16 Member: 41365Members, Reinforced - Onos
    I'm for a tutotrial with training since NS v2

    If you have a tutorial:
    -you can have a more complex game wich become rich and eventually have several layers.
    -More strategic possibilities players can implement because they know the possibilities. <b>That IS A KEY POINT</b>.
    -Less newbies that don't know the *ù$! where to begin. And of course telling them to RTFM have no effect. I did read it... who did?? <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/smile-fix.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":)" border="0" alt="smile-fix.gif" />
    -More friendly talks in FFA. "hey i'm noob; where do you need me". Things can organize better because a minimum basic stuff is here.

    If you don't implement any tutorial :
    -To appeal to people, the game will have to be dumb (in a way). An easy game, just to avoid player frustation.
    -Rely on basic skills like aim instead of stealth behavior, covering buddies, anticipation, teamwork.

    What interest me in NS (less lately due to servers and community) is that even if i'm at my very best, we still can be beaten by a team that develop something smart, fast, and efficient. After these games i said : darn, we fought well but we got beaten. but no regret... a hell of an epic game this one was !!! And the opponent to say: hey, you gave us a hard time, see ya tomorrow.

    Then the next day we come with a new plan to beat em. And we just switched replies. Next day we switch again (grrrr). This was cool to be in some kind of competition because <b>There was something to reach to</b>. Not just a score board.

    I think failure is OK with me. Despite some cultural differences between USA where failure isn't bad but still not apreciated, and Europe where failure is like a life time mark on your a$$. Being beaten by the oponent means that your team lacked the means to make a good and smart action or defend correctly against a new plan. Most of the time, it's about strategy (and a little bit of luck). If the game becomes dumb, why bother being smart ? Soon the it become a Aimbot contest. Counter Strike in space is not really a relief nor a new thing in the game market...

    I really don 't want a 'easy to catch' game. Because most of the time, it's the kind of game i get rid of, first...

    My 2 cents.
  • RadixRadix Join Date: 2005-01-10 Member: 34654Members, Constellation
    And the game doesn't have to be dumb to appeal to new players, it just has to be fun for people on all points of the skill curve, even if they're not spawncamping.
  • UncleCrunchUncleCrunch Mayonnaise land Join Date: 2005-02-16 Member: 41365Members, Reinforced - Onos
    I must explain: "Dumb (in a way)"

    hmmm... have you ever see a cat playing with a mouse ? At first, the cat don't bite the mouse. The cat plays for a little while before eating that unlucky mouse. The cat do that a the precise moment he gets bored.

    For humans, it's the same. If the game is too simple, it becomes repetitive due to lack of possibilities. Then we get bored...

    It reminds me the NS_nothing map on 1.04. Every marins team was relocating to 'generator', upgrading to get Jet pack and send one guy in the famous vent to destroy the hive with his shinny HMG. Frankly, playing that map in clanplay was boring to me. It's like an exam you already passed 10 times. You know all the answers.

    Or even Crysis. They said, before the games was out, that you could play the game in different ways. Like using the topology of the map to do things, stratégic things. Well... Obviously, it was a lie. But a lot of people thought it was possible (indeed it was; we had some examples on FarCry). The game is out and nobody have doubts about that topic now. Strategy in this game is choose betwen 'left of the barrack' and 'right of the barrack' (but you will enter the barrack). In fact this is just a 'tube' where you go forward and shoot. go forward and shoot again.

    Ok the game is beautiful but awfully 'empty'. I finished it (delta mode), and i will probably never play it again. Just because i'm sure i'm gonna see the same things again. It's a fiasco.

    What makes NS rich (yes my NS is rich) is that you HAVE possibilities, so you have choices. The element of surprise is not only the fact a skulk can cloak or walk on the cieling... A surprising strategy is far more exciting.

    So if you get the player to be surprised because the oponent managed to combine possibilites; I think this player will be more interested in the game beacause 1: he got surprised and 2: he will be able to reproduce it another day. 3 : he's got possibilities to explore.

    Even if you get fun with something simple, you get bored repeating it. It's like a joke you heard 10 times before.

    But i stop here. it brings another question about NS2 which is not the topic.
  • ThiefThief Ownage Join Date: 2003-08-09 Member: 19214Members, Constellation
    tutorial would be nice.
  • resresresresresres Join Date: 2007-10-16 Member: 62652Members
    <!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Max: I think people are capable of learning.
    Charlie: Of course, but it’s so brutal watching someone for the first time! It just kills me!
    Max: It’s painful for you to watch them,
    Charlie: No, it’s painful for other people –<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->

    YES, IT IS PAINFUL. If you've ever played an MMORPG (Or any multiplayer game for that matter).. you realize there are quite a number of people who ...develop "new skills" a lot more slowly than other people/players...

    I like N3's idea of a short video. But I was thinking of an offline tutorial also. Where there is a short level of explanation for either side.
    Duck here, Shoot here, build this, bite that, weld icon etc.. as well as what the UI icons mean.. health, armor, abilities, etc

    <!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Max: If you put it in the manual, then it’s OK, you can do whatever you want. That’s a pretty weak argument, because nobody wants to read the manual. Reading manuals is not fun.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->

    I'm one of the few who like to read the manuals.. "rtfm" is a lot quicker than stumbling around trying to wing it.. although.. sometimes im too excited to have a new game and just skip it all (relying on my vast experience in FPS/RTS's and jump into the action <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/wink-fix.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=";)" border="0" alt="wink-fix.gif" />

    Hopefully the UI has had a buff also: no longer stacking abilities, putting a 1, 2, 3 instead or maybe a graphical upgrade too - much
    like the power ups of Altered Beast, each one would increase the Buff-ness of the character/avatar you controlled...
    so 1x scent of fear is a small, half open green eye, 2x is an open one, 3x is an orange open one - reminiscent of Sauron's from LOTR trilogy..

    Also, Can't wait to hear/read more about those future devs/podcasts <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/biggrin-fix.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":D" border="0" alt="biggrin-fix.gif" /> GL @ GDC - would love to see some new screens of gameplay
    <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/skulk.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid="::skulk::" border="0" alt="skulk.gif" />
  • HarimauHarimau Join Date: 2007-12-24 Member: 63250Members
    <!--quoteo(post=1670320:date=Feb 13 2008, 08:38 AM:name=Buzzou)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Buzzou @ Feb 13 2008, 08:38 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1670320"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->lol lenard <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/smile-fix.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":)" border="0" alt="smile-fix.gif" /><!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
  • Lt_HendricksonLt_Hendrickson Join Date: 2003-03-21 Member: 14761Members
    Personally I would vote for a mandatory tutorial covering all basics such as weopons commanding and waypoints before multiplayer can even be unlocked. The reason being is I don't care if your too lazy and whiny to learn to play the game because "o I just want to play and have fun. Turtorials waste my time" because it only takes one new person to join and ruin the the 15 minutes of time for 10 other people. Yes you can be expected to be nub still but at least you'd have some concept of whats going on and not waste everybody elses time. Some on us like to play all day. Some of like to play for 15 minutes and I sure as hell feel bad for those who want to sit and play for 15 minutes to have to sit there everytime and pamper a whiny nub who didn't want to pay attention to the tutorial.
  • locallyunscenelocallyunscene Feeder of Trolls Join Date: 2002-12-25 Member: 11528Members, Constellation
    If you want to see a video tutorial for NS2 and are willing to help create it then please visit <a href="" target="_blank">this topic</a>.
  • CanadianWolverineCanadianWolverine Join Date: 2003-02-07 Member: 13249Members
    edited February 2008
    I realized that if they went to GDC, does that mean Unknown World's Devs got to see this and maybe even meet Yahtzee Croshaw?

    <a href="" target="_blank"></a>
  • seraph787seraph787 Join Date: 2008-02-20 Member: 63700Members
    edited February 2008
    I think it would be great to add a really short single player/tutorial part. You know similar to how COD4 did it. Really short single player and emphasize multi-player. If you really need ideas you could always just have a story writing contest for the the single player part, if you plan to make one at all. I think it would be a great addition. BTW, Tutorials should always be optional.

    Though I do agree Commander chair does need some practice so I suggest that in order to become a commander you have to have completed the tutorial. Otherwise I think everything else should be fair game.

    I can imagine the tutorial/Single player being really cool:
    "The year 2xxx, x years after the start of hive wars. The humans have been pushing the aliens back towards their homeworld. However, the humans have forgotten the power of natural selection."

    Then it goes to the perspective of a marine, you, and you are with a team of men following orders on a alien planet. You start fighting all the old creatures. Then near the end you fight a new species/ could be a boss or something that is not playable but more of a super weapon which the marines objective would be to destroy. So you would see possibly more alien world stuff in contrast to mainly marine stuff. So after much trouble and many weapons you finally defeat it/ or not. but basically you are the only guy left that escapes to go back to headquaters to tell them what happened.

    this sets the backdrop of the whole game is to prevent this super alien or something from evolving. Could be reason behind the combat maps. NS maps could still be the same old just wreaking war havoc etc etc.

    Then after this it goes to the alien perspective. of the same map of the same battle. which goes through all the incarnations of aliens and also explains what the super alien is or whatever.

    Another idea for the timed map is to prevent the marines from creating a super weapon like a siege weapon that can destroy everyhitng. Basically a reason for a siege map. after the timer hits one can build an "super siege." basically a siege turret that has the range of the whole map with 10x power.
  • freebirdpatfreebirdpat Join Date: 2004-04-10 Member: 27826Members, Constellation, Reinforced - Shadow
    edited February 2008
    You really need a tutorial.

    How many times do you hear some new player say "How do I get a gun?"

    "How do I get a jetpack? I want to fly"

    "all I do is die when I run straight at marines as a skulk, how do I kill?"

    The first time I played this game, I didn't "get it", I uninstalled it about a day later and only played for a short time, probably minutes.

    Eventually I came back, and "figured it out". Now imagine all those players that don't "get it", and never come back, ever!

    Basically, a tutorial should cover the basic questions players would have about playing this game, cover the core concepts that new players struggle with when they start playing. I am sure others will come up that players will struggle with, but if you give them the basics on how to be a player that a team would enjoy having instead of getting a player that knows nothing about how to play and being an actual hinderance to the game.

    I think the basics should include things like, what the lifeforms do, what the buildings do, why placement of certain buildings is crucial, (like how DCs behind a hive being sieged works, how OCs have a range limit(rarely encountered but definitely a issue that needs hit). One of them should show how a turret is built behind a barrel and it can't hit you, but you can hit the factory). Some of the tutorial should tap into the "advanced" strategy of the game(which some of what I mentioned probably is), but it shouldn't give away everything. Leave some things to the imagination but give a really strong base for a player to see what there is to do.

    Right now new players have no base, they get thrown in, and generally play combat first which to be honest is a tutorial game of "how do I shoot as a marine and play these lifeforms". When it comes to strategy, Natural Selection is like chess, combat is like tic-tac-toe. What you need is a tutorial that gets players to start thinking on how to play "chess".

    It would be great if a tutorial was not needed, but I think it is the easiest way to introduce a player to a game because it would be a consistent tone. Instead of throwing the player to the sharks that is the NS community and saying "try to have fun, try to learn how to play, and hopefully you will find people kind enough to teach you, and hopefully you won't have an extremely negative experience because the commander is mad that you don't know how to do a few simple things.

    Edit: by the way I am a big fan of combat, but I think it is what I say it is, so don't hate
  • HarimauHarimau Join Date: 2007-12-24 Member: 63250Members
    edited February 2008
    my idea is a hands-on 'simulation' of a real match.
    basically you're thrust into the middle of a (scripted) battle, you follow orders, and learn everything you need to know about the game over the course of a (lengthy) simulated match.
    situations change, objectives change, at some points you get ha/jp, different weapons, and have to enter the command chair.
    you can be killed and threatened, but you can't lose since it is a tutorial, you just respawn.
    until you learn certain things, demonstrated by your completion of certain objectives, the "match" won't go ahead, you kill, you die, but until you activate certain triggers, the situation in the scripted match won't change and you won't go on to the next objective/'lesson'.
    It'll take a simpler, straightforward map, waypoints, voice-overs, AI-controlled allies+enemies and scripted events.
    you can explain general map objectives, how the game works, and the storyline through the tutorial.
    there should be a similar (in terms of application) separate 'tutorial' for the alien team.
    ->the biggest drawback is that it'll take time. a lengthy time for the devs to create the tutorial. and a relatively lengthy match simulation for new players to play through that's not at all indicative of the length of or number of different situations in a real match (which can't really be helped if you wanna teach players the whole game, unless you split the tutorial up into standalone matches (phases) that each teach a selection of progressively harder/complex parts of the game, but that's even more work and somewhat daunting for both developer and player).

    in addition, there should be an in-built bot mode, for learning to shoot, and more importantly learning the individual maps.
  • WarmongerWarmonger Join Date: 2003-02-04 Member: 13126Members, Constellation
    I'm not a big fan of having a tutorial in NS. That's one of the best reasons to have a really good spectator mode (as NS does). This way a new play can spectate a few matches to get the feel of what's going on. That's what I did when I first installed NS. After spectating about two games I had a good feel for how things worked. Everything else I figured out in-game. Tribes was the same way. Hopefully the devs won't dumb-down the game (which seems all the rage these days) in order to make the game accessible to every two-bit idiot who can't be bothered to invest a little time to learn a game. Then the game will have no depth, and therefore no longterm playability.

    Personally, I like the idea mentioned above where the community makes video tutorials. This way the devs have time to concentrate on making the game great and others from the community can get involved and contribute.
  • HarimauHarimau Join Date: 2007-12-24 Member: 63250Members
    edited February 2008
    no one ever does, or should ever have to, turn to community forums, manuals, tutorials, videos; just to learn the game. accessibility is key.
  • NiBzNiBz Join Date: 2008-02-23 Member: 63720Members
    edited February 2008
    <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/tsa.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid="::tsa::" border="0" alt="tsa.gif" /> Turtorial is a good idea helps the new players to play better and understand the game faster!!
    In NS1 that im still playing i seen some new player latly and wow its hard for them to know whats going on when other people are angry with them!! And the old player dont always have time or dont wont to teach the new players!! So in game tutorial/guidelien system would be defenetly good!!

    BTW I like the Marine turotial that has been made by Darth!! Relly good to new players!!!

    You can check it out @ <a href="" target="_blank"></a>

    +rep to Darth Real nice Tutorial for Natural Selection
  • Raza.Raza. Join Date: 2004-01-24 Member: 25663Members, Constellation
    <!--quoteo(post=1671262:date=Feb 23 2008, 11:56 AM:name=Harimau)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Harimau @ Feb 23 2008, 11:56 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1671262"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->no one ever does, or should ever have to, turn to community forums, manuals, tutorials, videos; just to learn the game. accessibility is key.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->

    That's so true. I use that stuff to learn about details, but never to prepare for my first round of a game.
    Also, the spec-mode might be good, but NS is pretty complex and hard to understand for someone who never actually played the game.
    So it's not really an alternative for a good ingame tutorial.
  • resresresresresres Join Date: 2007-10-16 Member: 62652Members
    I agree with free bird pat, but oppose any idea of a hands on tutorial; should be a visual doco/tutorial or demonstration-
    Reason: if the dev team are too busy working on bots for the single player, they are compromising time better spent
    fine-tuning/refining/bug hunting...

    a clear, basic but fun tutorial (with some ns2 graphic style) ala Team Fortress 2, will help point out basics:
    now, should it be:
    o per map (detail of objectives, hive locations, marine start point, etc)
    o a ~15 step guide to 'basics' and also a quick overview of each class (strategies, basic demo of abilities, what buildings do)


    <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/skulk.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid="::skulk::" border="0" alt="skulk.gif" />
  • Dalin SeivewrightDalin Seivewright 0x0000221E Join Date: 2007-10-20 Member: 62685Members, Constellation
    You know...
    If the community feels they need a tutorial to help people play the game, they could just make something up in Lua+Map Editor and release it to the community. Then perhaps certain servers could take it on and give an option to players on their servers if they want to run the tutorial or not.
  • locallyunscenelocallyunscene Feeder of Trolls Join Date: 2002-12-25 Member: 11528Members, Constellation
    <!--quoteo(post=1671262:date=Feb 23 2008, 05:56 AM:name=Harimau)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Harimau @ Feb 23 2008, 05:56 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1671262"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->no one ever does, or should ever have to, turn to community forums, manuals, tutorials, videos; just to learn the game. accessibility is key.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
    Well the thing is even after people decided they like the game and want to learn more about it, there isn't really a good resource right now to learn the game. So they know that gorges drop the hive and that both teams are trying to get a node. They still don't know how they're dying to all those skulk ambushes or how to fight a fade or what "sticking together" and "covering" really mean. Those are the kind of gaps a tutorial can fill, not "spacebar is jump" or "you shoot aliens to win" I commonly see in tutorials.
  • HarimauHarimau Join Date: 2007-12-24 Member: 63250Members
    edited February 2008
    I don't understand. What's your point? That doesn't change that no one ever really does, of if they do - they shouldn't have to, turn to community forums, manuals, tutorials, videos; to learn the game.
    it's inconvenient, unnecessary and it turns people away from the game. "I've got the game, why should I have to waste my time searching for and reading fan-made tutorials?"
    The most popular- and the best-made- games are the ones where you get everything in the single package. Everything you need (to know) to play the game, you get <b>with</b> the game.
    I'll say it again, accessibility is key.

    sure, for those that want to learn <b>advanced</b> maneuvers, tactics, and such; then they'll be actively searching out those things anyway, or experimenting on their own. <b>Details</b>--as Razagal pointed out. Then sure, have a database of community-based tips and tricks, but that is an entirely separate consideration to tutorials or a learn-as-you-go method.
  • Meat_PopsicleMeat_Popsicle Join Date: 2003-08-09 Member: 19254Members, Constellation
    An offline mode with bots is probably the best way of teaching people the game..

    Im sure Cheeseh will help...
    <a href="" target="_blank"></a>
  • SinterSinter Join Date: 2003-03-05 Member: 14347Members, Constellation
    I think some sort of offline tutorial would be good as well.

    Also since it will be so heavily scripted, it would be cool if you could sort of integrate a little bit of plot in to the end of the tutorial where it sort of "leads-in" to a multiplayer game, and maybe even goes as far as auto-connecting you to a server.

    Just imagine the immersion of having finished the tutorial (whatever it may be), when suddenly, warning klaxon go off and say that a nearby ship is under attack! Your final task in the tutorial would be to follow a waypoint to a dropship where your screen would fade-to-black (discreetly connect you to an online game) while continuing to play some instructional audio in the background as it loads...
  • locallyunscenelocallyunscene Feeder of Trolls Join Date: 2002-12-25 Member: 11528Members, Constellation
    <!--quoteo(post=1671657:date=Feb 28 2008, 06:21 PM:name=Sinter)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Sinter @ Feb 28 2008, 06:21 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1671657"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Also since it will be so <b>heavily scripted</b>, it would be cool if you could sort of integrate a little bit of plot in to the end of the tutorial where it sort of "leads-in" to a multiplayer game, and maybe even goes as far as auto-connecting you to a server.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
    I think that's what they want to avoid, they'd rather put time and energy into the game itself.
  • HarimauHarimau Join Date: 2007-12-24 Member: 63250Members
    if it's an actual tutorial, then <b>of course</b> it's going to be scripted.
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