Commander spells/abilities
afratnikov
Join Date: 2003-08-05 Member: 18931Members
Join Date: 2003-08-05 Member: 18931Members
<div class="IPBDescription">What are your ideas?</div>Here is the developers' plans regarding spells for NS2 (Taken from <a href="http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=103013" target="_blank">Podcast 7</a>):
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Max: Yeah, sort of active abilities that the commander can use, so he is not directly shooting guys... So the commander is not interacting in the same way, but give him other ways of interacting, and bringing those, you know, which are somewhat present in Natural Selection, but making them a bigger part of Natural Selection 2. So like, the hacking, hacking was a part of Natural Selection 1, but it was kind of a small part, ... I think making that a bigger part of the game, giving him more active things, like the scanner sweep, that he can do to complement the guys on the ground.
Charlie: Like buff the marines... they’re on your units, is the key. Or, like, on a specific area, or there’s timing involved.
Max: But this is kind’ve a neat thing the commander has. It’s not like you rely on the guys on the ground to participate in that
Charlie: So we think that we can decouple the two and improve it a bit from NS.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
And this is regarding alien comm's abilities (<a href="http://www.unknownworlds.com/ns2/forums/index.php?s=&showtopic=103427&view=findpost&p=1664131" target="_blank">Charlie's comment </a>on 14th podcast):
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->... The alien Comm would have totally different abilities or "spells" - not droppable medpacks and energy packs!<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Post your ideas on new comm abilities for marines and aliens. How could they work? How would they look? What would their use be?
Also, think about old spells: would you like med and ammo packs make a return? What could be changed/improved about them?
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Max: Yeah, sort of active abilities that the commander can use, so he is not directly shooting guys... So the commander is not interacting in the same way, but give him other ways of interacting, and bringing those, you know, which are somewhat present in Natural Selection, but making them a bigger part of Natural Selection 2. So like, the hacking, hacking was a part of Natural Selection 1, but it was kind of a small part, ... I think making that a bigger part of the game, giving him more active things, like the scanner sweep, that he can do to complement the guys on the ground.
Charlie: Like buff the marines... they’re on your units, is the key. Or, like, on a specific area, or there’s timing involved.
Max: But this is kind’ve a neat thing the commander has. It’s not like you rely on the guys on the ground to participate in that
Charlie: So we think that we can decouple the two and improve it a bit from NS.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
And this is regarding alien comm's abilities (<a href="http://www.unknownworlds.com/ns2/forums/index.php?s=&showtopic=103427&view=findpost&p=1664131" target="_blank">Charlie's comment </a>on 14th podcast):
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->... The alien Comm would have totally different abilities or "spells" - not droppable medpacks and energy packs!<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Post your ideas on new comm abilities for marines and aliens. How could they work? How would they look? What would their use be?
Also, think about old spells: would you like med and ammo packs make a return? What could be changed/improved about them?
Comments
Also, there is the question of how the comm would pay for these abilities: resources, separate energy, a timer, or a combination of all these!
How much should the commander be able to influence the game and how much does he depend on marines? - Ability that adds damage to marines still relies on them to hit their targets. But, some kind of area attack that damages everything in an area would separate comm from his teammates.
Then there is the alien comm: what should his abilities be? Should they be completely different from marines'? - If marine comm' spells buff the marines, maybe the alien comm would instead be able to do direct damage or debuff marines?
This is just a flow of my ideas. My main point is: there are a lot of abilities that can be made up and I would like to learn your ideas, reasons, and their impact on NS2.
<a href="http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=103094" target="_blank">http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/index....howtopic=103094</a>
<b>Pys Strike (Kharaa) or Rail Canon (Marine)</b> * note: these are just names I made up on the fly, I am open to suggestions for better names.
Story Synopsis: Each of these 'spells' assumes the two sides are embroiled in a larger conflict. The commander of either team calls in support from outside the map, let us pretend there is a Marine Space Ship or Kharaa Asteroid (or whatever they use) nearby the map the match is being played on, and they are waging war on each other.
Result: They basicly vaporize anything, foe or friendly within an area, maybe even making the area impassable for while as the half-life of the radiated stuff does its thing. But if a Hive or Command Chair is in the blast radius, it fails because the other side's space vehicles intercede and polish off the support that was called in.
Hope you guys like it.
<b>Other ideas</b> I have would employ hacking the map for a spectacular map placed event, using Kharaa "terra forming", giving the Infestation terrifying and terrible (for marines) vines / tentacles, programing nanites to self destruct, opening a section of the map so it floods / exposed to vacuum / exposed to inhospitable atmosphere... Hmm, that is all I seem to have brain stormed at the moment. Hope it helps.
You wouldn't want something like a rail cannon or asteroid piercing the ship in the middle of space - that wouldn't be very ideal <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/tounge.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":p" border="0" alt="tounge.gif" />
I'd thought of a damaging ability too. Why not just use what is already there? Nanites and bacteria? You could probably just as easily simulate an 'airstrike' (that materialises from nanites and/or phases in) for marines, and possibly a biological weapon for kharaa. I think the difference would be that an airstrike of sorts would deal raw damage (to aliens and buildings, armour and health), while the biological weapon would only deal hp-damage and only to marines (but likely effectively) - and/or it could, as was said, 'debuff' the marines.
I think it <b>should</b> cost resources, or if it doesn't, that's fine too. But a 'timer' (after activation) as well as a small operational delay (eg. 15 seconds to airstrike) would be important. Likely it would be activated from a certain building, and the building would have an inbuilt-timer before it could perform another 'spell'. Perhaps you'd have several spells, with different costs and/or different time and operational delays.
As for hacking, doesn't it take the commander away from the 'front'?
Here are the ideas summarized:
Electrification of single/groups of marines
Spells to kill DI
Destructive spells are limited to marine territory/off of DI
Power Surge/Nanite Flood that frees doors clogged with DI
Lockdown that temporarily locks doors in an area (maybe on DI maybe off)
Gamma Radiation/Electrfication(of ground) similar to Pys Strike/Rail Canon
Buffs/Morale boost to armor/speed/weaponry
Disruption of chambers/buildings in an area
Hand spell that interacts with map
This is an interesting idea, but it seems like a big departure from NS. Max mentioned that they will follow the rule of thumb of 1/3 old, 1/3 improved, and 1/3 new for the sequel (can't remember where exactly he said/wrote that).
Your ideas for augmentations are very creative and i like your idea of making spells interact/overlap with other things. Spells could interact with, maybe not augmentations, but instead weapons or upgrades. A marine buff spell might add different bonuses to different weapons such as increased pellets if you have a shotgun, faster fire rate for HMG, bigger explosion range for GL and so on. Another spell might give percent increase to armor complementing armor upgrades.
If the developers decide to do this - great! But they will most-likely try to improve existing things and put their creative efforts and balancing into Dynamic Infestation, tunnels, welding system, alien comm, spells and many other new things.
<!--quoteo(post=1667743:date=Jan 17 2008, 10:59 AM:name=locallyunscene)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(locallyunscene @ Jan 17 2008, 10:59 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1667743"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Short older topic on commander spells{<a href="http://www.unknownworlds.com/ns2/forums/index.php?showtopic=103230&hl=" target="_blank">link</a>}. If you want to reply to any of the ideas in that topic recommend you respond in this topic.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I'll read through it and respond there. I prefer things that are simple and yet provide unique, tactical choices.
The Railcannon, Pys strike, and invader Zim's gammer radiation all seem like ultimate abilities: They kill everything in a place and then prevent everyone from going through it for a time. It seems a bit overpowered as well as not particularly fun: "Onos runs through a corridor - BOOM! - he's dead." For the same reason I fundamentally dislike any instant direct damage spells. Now, spells that discourage/deny use of an area, similar to lerk's gas, are a different story. Here you actually have a choice: do i risk and continue through the area at cost of health or do i wait for the effect to expire?
Many ideas have to do with DI, something that isn't fleshed out yet. I don't really want to comment on those, because it's unclear what DI will do and how important it will be to spread/remove it. Even if you come up with awesome ideas about DI, it will likely work differently and then these ideas will have to be modified. Environment spell ideas, such as closing/opening all doors have similar problem, because it's unclear how the welding system will work. Btw, did you know that NS comm could control switches? Did you ever use it? - i know i didn't, because besides it being very difficult to click them, it doesn't do much at all. I certainly hope this is going to be improved in NS2!
Simple changes to stats, such as the suggested moral boost would work well. It depends on the details though: is it drop-able, single-target package like catalyst pack, temporary buff to all marines, temporary buff in area of effect, or something completely different? Catalyst packs don't work well, because they require a lot of micro management. AoE buff, on the other hand, would encourage marines to stick together so they all benefit from it.
What are you referring to? Morale like in Total War games? - You're right, that wouldn't work in an FPS at all!
"Morale" is just a name - it could be called anything that makes sense: catalyst, battle shout, anything. The core of the idea is commander giving temporary boost to soldiers' characteristics.
<!--quoteo(post=1667816:date=Jan 18 2008, 12:12 PM:name=Harimau)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Harimau @ Jan 18 2008, 12:12 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1667816"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->:/ why did you revive this thread? what was wrong with the new thread that you made?
edit: and not just the one <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/tounge.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":p" border="0" alt="tounge.gif" /><!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Now that i think about it - posting on the old topics was a mistake. I misread locallyunscene's message as "Short older topic on commander spells{link}. If you want to reply to any of the ideas in that topic recommend you respond in <i>that </i>topic." <i>This </i>small mistake changes <i>that </i>meaning completely, doesn't it? <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/sad-fix.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":(" border="0" alt="sad-fix.gif" /> Sorry about <i>that</i>.
I wanted to revive the old spells discussion, since a lot of things can be suggested there. I've seen people complain on the videocast that there isn't anything new about NS2 coming from the developers. Well, there is a lot of very interesting stuff in the archives.
EDIT: "moral" changed to morale - thanks Harimau
morals are virtues/a sense of shame or right and wrong.
morale is something like a state of mind
but my point is, it doesn't matter what it's called, a morale system of any kind is a horrible system, much moreso for an FPS. it works to an extent with RTS/RTT games, because you're commanding non-player units. for an fps, creating a morale system is placing artificial constraints; that have no bearing on how you, yourself, behind that computer screen, are feeling. the 'morale system' i'm talking about is the kind that affects how hard you fight (characteristic boosts/declines?), depending on your surroundings/comrades and the flow of the battle - i just don't think it would work.
but as for boosts to soldiers' characteristics; activated by the commander, well, certain things still wouldn't make much sense. like weapon accuracy and reload time or something; probably even damage. but i guess you could explain them away somehow.
going faster... i dunno, maybe it could work - something about the commander's 'spell' increasing the activity of the nanites in the marines' muscles and bloodstream; increasing their (the body's) efficiency and output.
hmm, for a sort of damage-increasing/damaging spell, that would be dependent still, on marine's firing; you could have a 'second bullet' fire every time you fire based on where the first bullet hit, and materialise from the air (phase, nanites?) and shoot the same spot (with a little degree of inaccuracy, and/or a tiny delay). it would help a lot with defense: there would be an 'anchor' of sorts - the center of the circle (the radius/area of the spell) from which the bullets would 'fire'. kinda like a guardian angel.
I agree with you completely.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->but as for boosts to soldiers' characteristics; activated by the commander, well, certain things still wouldn't make much sense. like weapon accuracy and reload time or something; probably even damage. but i guess you could explain them away somehow.
going faster... i dunno, maybe it could work - something about the commander's 'spell' increasing the activity of the nanites in the marines' muscles and bloodstream; increasing their (the body's) efficiency and output.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Don't worry about realism too much - it's just a game. Does it bother you, that medpacks drop out of thin air in NS? As you mention, anything can be explained somehow, especially if you treat nanites as magic. (BTW, <a href="http://www-lmr.usc.edu/~lmr/publications/nanorobotics/" target="_blank">nanites </a>ARE NOT a realistic explanation for medpacks dropping out of thin air).
My point is: <i>worry about the spells' mechanics and their impact on the game first</i>
It sure helps if an idea makes sense and NS2 abilities should be intuitive. However, it shouldn't be a requirement to justify each gameplay element with an explanation for how it would work in the real world.
[I might have misunderstand your message: i read your statement "an idea doesn't make sense," meaning "it lacks realism" and responded to it in that way]
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->hmm, for a sort of damage-increasing/damaging spell, that would be dependent still, on marine's firing; you could have a 'second bullet' fire every time you fire based on where the first bullet hit, and materialise from the air (phase, nanites?) and shoot the same spot (with a little degree of inaccuracy, and/or a tiny delay). it would help a lot with defense: there would be an 'anchor' of sorts - the center of the circle (the radius/area of the spell) from which the bullets would 'fire'. kinda like a guardian angel.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
This idea obviously would not be explainable by nanites either (Unless you count the explanation: "Well the way this works is... uh... NANITES!), but who cares anyway. First a few questions: Would the 'anchor' be destructible (assume: no)? Would it work on all marines in the spell area (assume: yes)? Does second bullet do same damage as first bullet (assume: yes)? Does the bullet have max range (assume: no)?
I can see it being used as an ultimate hive-rushing weapon: put that thing in the hive and marines with the doubled damage could spawn-camp and kill the hive easily. Almost the same effect as this ability can be achieved simply by doubling the damage of all marines that fire from the area of effect. The only difference would be when the center of the effect has no line of sight of the target the marine is shooting at, which is very rare. This change would save a lot of CPU power since the second bullets' paths won't need to be calculated.
I'm not too sure whether the damage should be the same or not. The 'second bullet' doesn't necessarily have to be a bullet either. It could be a generic projectile, an accelerated charged particle beam, laser (I wouldn't, though), or a "tesla"-style lightning shock.
I don't think the anchor would be destructible, but it would be mostly visible. I think there'd be an 'effect' radius - that is, the marines inside the effect area have that enhancement; and a larger 'range' radius - bullets that land outside of the range radius are not enhanced by the 'second bullet'. It would have to be placed intelligently, because yes, the counter(?) would be to get out of the range or line of sight.
Again, it would be dependent on the marine's firing ability. And there may be a small degree of inaccuracy (if you could do this, then there might be greater inaccuracy depending on the rate of fire of the 'anchor') and perhaps a very tiny delay.
As for why I chose to use an 'anchor' in the idea, rather than just doubling damage; apart from the effect/range/lineofsight things; it would just be very unique and look that much cooler. <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/tounge.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":p" border="0" alt="tounge.gif" />