Anti Cheating Ideas
Misere
Join Date: 2004-03-28 Member: 27568Members
Join Date: 2004-03-28 Member: 27568Members
<div class="IPBDescription">Methods for screwing over cheaters</div>Had my first run in with a cheater yesterday. I only had an hour to play after working my ass off all day and this complete <CENSORED>tard came and was nailling every one with some sort of speed cheat. He still got killed a couple of times but if he got you in his gun sites or Jaws he would nail you straight away, plus he could see stationary cloaked aliens. Ruinned what limited gaming time I have, which will only get less if at all as kiddies are now on the cards.
Anywhose: how to deal with these people?
I would like to propose a global ban system. Basicly certified servers send a list of new banned ID's to a central server each day. Servers (certified and others) can update from this list and auto ban them as well. This way you can't cheat on one server for sick fun and then move onto the next one once your caught. Successive bands form muilple servers increase the time banned up to 1 momnth or something.
Methods to address abuse of this need to be thought out as well but what do ya all think?
Anywhose: how to deal with these people?
I would like to propose a global ban system. Basicly certified servers send a list of new banned ID's to a central server each day. Servers (certified and others) can update from this list and auto ban them as well. This way you can't cheat on one server for sick fun and then move onto the next one once your caught. Successive bands form muilple servers increase the time banned up to 1 momnth or something.
Methods to address abuse of this need to be thought out as well but what do ya all think?
Comments
2: I think the system should be opt-in, where an admin can make his server "whitelisted" if he really wants to. That way people who fear cheaters could go to the safe servers to be 100% guaranteed a legit experience.
I like the idea of an access list. <!--coloro:lime--><span style="color:lime"><!--/coloro-->In any case, this would be a far lower priority to me than designing NS2 gameplay.<!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc-->
cheaters in my opinion are only really a problem on servers with either useless or a lack of admins. If all servers had a good number of resonably fair and resposible admins, cheating and abusive behavour would be very minimal
I have been playing NS since version 1. Trust me I know a cheat when I see one. He ran into marine spawn when he was on my team and killed all six marines in less than 2 seconds. Basicly he held down bite and had the rate of fire of an HMG with no adenaline loss. I was just as pissed off then as when I was alien and he killed me so fast I did not even hear the shots or see any loss of life. One milli second I was alive the next I was dead. He then went on to kill stationary aliens with cloaking. Trust me he was cheating.
<!--quoteo(post=1667320:date=Jan 13 2008, 04:07 PM:name=Radix)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Radix @ Jan 13 2008, 04:07 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1667320"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->2: I think the system should be opt-in, where an admin can make his server "whitelisted" if he really wants to. That way people who fear cheaters could go to the safe servers to be 100% guaranteed a legit experience.
I like the idea of an access list. <!--coloro:lime--><span style="color:lime"><!--/coloro-->In any case, this would be a far lower priority to me than designing NS2 gameplay.<!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc--><!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Definatly! It should not be mandartory. This way if it does not work out the admins can cancel it. However, I don't see developing a bullet proof method (well as much as possible) of stopping cheaters as competion for the game development.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->isnt this what VAC is supposed to do. u can already sned steam no. and a recording of some one cheating to VAC i think, tho ive never done it.
cheaters in my opinion are only really a problem on servers with either useless or a lack of admins. If all servers had a good number of resonably fair and resposible admins, cheating and abusive behavour would be very minimal<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Not really, you can't expect an admin to be watching 24/7. They have to see the action, make the call on if the individual was cheating and then ban them. So there is always small delays. Some cheaters are smart to not make it too obvous, some like this one where proud of it. So when you chatch the sneaky ones its likly that they had been cheating and ruinning games for a while. Thus I would like some sort system that deals with this.
As for who makes the call.
~Server admins from trusted servers. (What requirements do you thing we need for this?)
~No perment banning but if mulitple admins from muiltiple servers report you then you get your banning time doubled.
I have no idea how they could do this, but I am 100% in favor of it.
QFT. <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/marine.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid="::marine::" border="0" alt="marine.gif" />
Good idea.
<!--quoteo(post=1667359:date=Jan 14 2008, 12:46 AM:name=pSyk0mAn)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(pSyk0mAn @ Jan 14 2008, 12:46 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1667359"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Abusive admins should be included into the global ban system.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Heh.
PS im in favour for a opt in global cheater tracker system
cheaters in my opinion are only really a problem on servers with either useless or a lack of admins. If all servers had a good number of resonably fair and resposible admins, cheating and abusive behavour would be very minimal<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->In general yes. C-D was another similar system. I doubly agree with the comment on "either useless or a lack of admins".
I can't help but look at this topic and know that it won't work perfectly the same way VAC isn't perfect...
VAC does a good job of having: a deterent presence to the average naïve gamer, and removing the really stupid cheaters using blatant, very old versions of even older cheats.
VAC does a good job of avoiding: crossing into subjective territory (like Underwhelmed alluded to in his comment about who the judges should be), and banning a person who wasn't cheating.
With that said, this topic seems grossly naïve to me and I wonder... and ask each of you to ask yourselves honestly:
Did you know there are sites (with forums ironically) which buy/sell/trade cheats?
Did you know which sites are considered more reliable than others?
Did you know that most cheats on a half-decent site are <i>regularly</i> tested for VAC proof, PunkBusters proof, or whatever system is most prevalent for anti-cheat for that game (which would easily include this thread's proposed idea, likely in a week or less)?
Did you know that VAC2 banning can be delayed up to 5 weeks?
Did you know where VAC scans your system (what folders, where in memory) and when (at what times and how)?
Did you know that VAC is generally quite good at catching edits to the game's declared memory during runtime?
Did you know that most NS cheats are modified CS cheats and usually work with both?
Did you know that a cheat that could get you VAC banned in CS, most often won't get you banned in NS?
Did you know when VAC2 module was last updated?
Did you know what a ring0 cheat is and why they are generally not used?
Hopefully most of you are blissfully unaware and are answering "no" or "don't know" to most of those questions. And that group I'm sure sees this topic's idea as wonderful solution to the problem. But for those (ie: developers, or anybody who is skilled at finding information on the internet) who do know the answers to some of those questions and I'd imagine far, far better even than myself, then those people can understand why this idea is as overly idealistic and unpragmatic as VAC is and will fair no better. It's a good intention for an idea, but wholly unrealistic, thus:
<b><!--coloro:#EE0000--><span style="color:#EE0000"><!--/coloro-->vote no<!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc--></b>
I understand capitalism well enough and am disillusioned to the utopian world of a magic bullet anti-cheat. (ie: THERE IS NO SUCH THING!) People will ALWAYS find a way around your systems, ESPECIALLY if money gets involved.
There is a better solution anyways and I believe one of you (can't find the quote right now) already spoke it aloud:
It comes down to admin presence, educated admins (meaning they've researched the cheats and preferably have seen them in action) so they know what is cheating and what isn't, and admins interesting in the server's well-being -- meaning their clients enjoy comming there, where anybody can come there have fun not worry about getting accused, abused, or cheated. Yet that is just about as common is it not? Elitist clan server admins who will ban anybody who is better than them? Ever experienced that?
Remember: The only thing worse than a cheater, is a poor admin.
aside personal observation: I've maybe seen one or two cheaters in a NS classic game in my entire time playing, which is rare. I've seen several and often blatant cheaters in combat only servers. I play both modes roughly equally. Maybe it's just me, but I think the leveling system (on servers using the ExtraLevels plugin, aka. /xmenu) is perhaps part of the appeal those who feel the need to cheat. Just my two cents on that...
<!--quoteo(post=1667380:date=Jan 14 2008, 09:41 AM:name=invader Zim)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(invader Zim @ Jan 14 2008, 09:41 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1667380"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->on some servers theres a vote kick system but it often requires players to know commands of the commandline and cease playing whilst typing. If a simple interface for this was default built into the game it would allow servers to get rid of cheaters when admins are not present. It would have to be really easy to use but require a majority vote on the server to get a kick, and it wouldn't be able to ban individuals.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
While I'm not in favor of a global ban system, I think a streamlined system like that could help assist a server's clients a lot -- with one hesitation from a con that seems a problem familiar with people spamming the eject on the commander like children whining. Ah, but as I have been saying for most of this post nothing is perfect, aye?
<b><!--coloro:#00DD00--><span style="color:#00DD00"><!--/coloro-->vote yes<!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc--></b>
Imho, the more layers of protection you have the better, <b>VAC</b> + <b>global-banlist</b> + <b>fair admins</b> for the win!
By the way, i really do miss a built-on votekick system in NS!
Imho, the more layers of protection you have the better, <b>VAC</b> + <b>global-banlist</b> + <b>fair admins</b> for the win!
By the way, i really do miss a built-on votekick system in NS!<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
It is missing in Unreal Tourney 3 and is desperately needed. Thats all I hear about when I play, and I have to say it's need more then any game patch or other feature. Making a game without votekick is bad. Especially a HL based game. That's just inviting...
But some Cheaters are not stupid, so they maintain a low profile.
I think the only thing you can do is a system like in world of warcraft for example.
A RAM searcher, but you can beat that to, so i don't know, cheaters are a bad pest.
But <b>cheaters need to be eradicated.</b>
<!--sizeo:1--><span style="font-size:8pt;line-height:100%"><!--/sizeo-->
P.S. bunnyhopping is like a cheat, but its more a glitch.
You can't bunnyhopping if you not bind or change something in the config.<!--sizec--></span><!--/sizec-->
X5 i found ur post very informative i hadnt really thought about cheating that much but it doesnt supprise me i figured VAC scanned my pc but then ive been told windows media player does too.
whilst i agree with u that a global ban system would be far from water tight im still infavour as at least it would act as a deterant. But in short i guess the best anticheat mechanisim is players and admins that recognise cheating and are given the means to act.
luckliy cheating is rare in ns ive never seen a blatent case, ive seen ppl get accused but then that may just because theyre good shots, subtle cheating is a harder issue than aimbot and speed enhancement users that we can all spot.
on a slight tangent id also like the vote kicj system to deal with deliberate TKers and abusive players. Friendly fire can be fun and make u think more on some servers but the price of idiot tkers can be heavy. I play hidden source quite alot and Friendly fires an important part of that game but it suffers from few and rubbish admins, no vote kick system and no punishement system, so kids come on and kill their entire team cos its "funny"
You can't bunnyhopping if you not bind or change something in the config.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Please don't start.
A community ban list seems like a reasonable option to me, especially since it doesn't require any work from UWE(unless they want to have a forum dedicated to it). Vote kicks are not the best solution IMO. If it's a vote kick the player will just come back. If it's a vote ban, well that's giving the players a lot of power. I see vote kicks abused more than used.
"If you can't say something nice, don't say nothing at all"
But some Cheaters are not stupid, so they maintain a low profile.
I think the only thing you can do is a system like in world of warcraft for example.
A RAM searcher, but you can beat that to, so i don't know, cheaters are a bad pest.
But <b>cheaters need to be eradicated.</b>
<!--sizeo:1--><span style="font-size:8pt;line-height:100%"><!--/sizeo-->
P.S. bunnyhopping is like a cheat, but its more a glitch.
You can't bunnyhopping if you not bind or change something in the config.<!--sizec--></span><!--/sizec--><!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Actually, you can bunnyhop without binding jump to anything but space... only practice and skill is needed.
The second reason for it is that its a combination of evasion and speed, almost perfectly balanced to match the marines' early-gameplay firepower. oh, and its a fun feature to have! <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/skulk.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid="::skulk::" border="0" alt="skulk.gif" />
I dont know whether any of you had played both with HL and Source engine games, but I miss something in the latter: 'just' multiplayer netcode. Playing cs1.5 for eg. when you shot at a running target you it hit where you aimed while in source there are serious hitbox issues. Those damn things doesnt have the feeling of the old engine.... I really hope this wont be the case with NS2 <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/tounge.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":p" border="0" alt="tounge.gif" />
I like the trust network option. After all a server in France is unlikily to ever get any of the cheaters active in New Zealand as we are on the other side of the world.
I like the banning of abusive admins but how this could be proved is interesting.
But at the end of the day if you have to cheat you have not won, however cheaters probly don't see it that way. So they have my pitty.
1. It is much harder to develop code for game engine exclusions rather than exceptions and not give false alarms (which is worse). Plus consider that cheat developers have not only the angle of exceptions but more technically more work hours to. Consider this from the business side, is it cost effective to have patches very frequently? Valve (much more capital than UWE) updates the VAC2 module about four to five times per year and that's it. It's a pretty big drain for something that may be ultimately ineffective at stoping cheaters anyways. In short, who ends up paying the bill? It's like paying huge sums of money for a maid service to clean your house daily. Sounds nice at first to over do it, but to be cold there are higher priorities you can blow your income on.
2. Any anti-cheat is another program running in the background. It will use up RAM. It will use up CPU time. It will grind your harddrive. How much so depends on how intense the program is versus how powerful the computer is itself. Now VAC isn't really a problem for most people's systems. But to really make a powerful anti-cheat that really cuts into what cheaters can do like a CISCO netBIOS firewall, it's going to need to be pretty damn invasive, way more than your anti-virus software. In fact like your anti-virus software it could possibly intergrate at the kernel layer, meaning lots of fun with BSOD's until you get the bugs worked out. Or more like until you get the bugs worked out enough by trying it out on the public like how Microsoft "tries out" their new operating systems on the general public. I'm not sure if the Mircosoft approach is one that will make the relatively new UWE friends with anybody. Personally I'm sick of half-baked software comming out all the time. Whether it be drivers, games (NWN2 v1.0, STALKER, etc.), or <a href="http://www5.informatik.tu-muenchen.de/~huckle/bugse.html" target="_blank">whatever</a> there is going to have to be more time taken to debug. (see #1) The more complex the code (especially if it gets patched constantly), the more diffcult and ANNOYING all of that's going to be.
So it sounds like I'm saying we're stuck in finding an ideal anti-cheat solution, right? Or maybe you don't think those cons are important enough to forestall plans... for now (see impulse vs. long term). Abandon the objective of anti-cheating ideas? Not at all, just use labor-time assets against cheating by education and empowering the independent servers. And what in the hells do I mean by that? (for those not <i>reading</i> and skimming like I know many of you are *wink*) Three words ladies and gents: Empower the People.
There are many ways to assist admins and even the general server public to help with servers having cheating issues. In otherwords, empower the community, from inside the game.<ul><li> develop an in-game GUI system to allow for voting on maps, teams, etc... and kick votes too. Steamline that interface so that even a chimp could do it.</li><li> develop offical seals of approval for servers that follow ethical guidelines in finding a balance in justice (stops cheating, doesn't land false accusations, and encourages good admin behavior in serving their clients) But note that five-star approval ONLY matters if it is OFFICIAL.</li></ul>
Speaking of educating the public... It's hard to find any material I can show you all to explain what you should be looking for if you are an admin. The hardest thing to descibe is what to look for in an aimbot. Wallhacking is easy enough to see when spectating, but the only thing about aimbots you can know for sure is that they are always able to turn anywhere and get a perfect hit on the first shot and they wobble/twitch constantly. Could the user be playing over a grated surface and get those twitches? (why would you do that) Sure, but does that same person repeatedly get 15 headshots in a row? Then odds are that's aimbotting. I've heard a million excuses in my time administrating servers. Oh it's my mouse battery. Oh I have alzheimer's (instead of Lou Gehrig's). Oh I have to go pee. If you've seen it in action enough you can kind of tell. If you aren't sure, issue a warning. This is where it really is out of the developer's hands and entire in the admin-to-client communication process. Today's computers can do patterns and solve algorithms with precision and accuracy, they aren't that socially adept. Which is really my whole point all over again and reinforces my votes to yes and no earlier. Anyways, if you've read what I've written then try to learn from the best explanitory videos I could find:
a view from both the spectator's view and the cheater's point of view
<center><object width="450" height="356"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/vq3xT4J-omo"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/vq3xT4J-omo" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" width="450" height="356"></embed></object></center>
and so called chapter 2 where the same author explains some of what
<center><object width="450" height="356"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/__EuxBg9HVA"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/__EuxBg9HVA" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" width="450" height="356"></embed></object></center>
I realize the next part was made by a guy who lives in Spain. If you understand spanish, kudos; if not, no worries just watch and see if you can see the wobbles/twitches of the aimbot. Note the GUI menu, as if to add insult to injury since there exists no GUI for client-server interfacing. Don't get me wrong I can use the console just and bind slap player commands in a few seconds, but others just want to play the game and not get into understanding the mechanics.
<center><object width="450" height="356"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/rIxa7JvhI68"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/rIxa7JvhI68" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" width="450" height="356"></embed></object></center>
Again the above would really only be of most interest to admins who SHOULD study video clips like that. And yes they are of CS, not NS. But remember what I said earlier in my previous post?
PS: Don't forget if the administrator is in and you are not him/her, let them handle it. If you are not the admin you don't need to be whinning over the mic or spamming the chat with your moaning. Admins are the refs, they've got the final say.
long post ended,
<b>[color="#EE0000][/color]</b>
Your welcome. It is understandable for people to be uniformed, but it really bugs me to see child-aged admins passing judgement on the accused cheaters without knowing anything about cheating. My ol' two cents about a good server say that you should never be on a server where they don't have regular admins logged in that are greater than or equal to the age of 20 (or at least the wisdom of a mature adult, but that is sadly rare).
As long as there are 12 year old admins who will add a player to it, it will get abused. It's not right to ban anyone globally based on one admin's decision.
<!--coloro:#FF0000--><span style="color:#FF0000"><!--/coloro--><b>VOTE NO</b><!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc-->
Do you want YOUR playing future dictated by some admin-kiddie you pissed off because you're such a leet player? I think not.
But still, the best thing for any server is active admins who are well-informed and keep an up-to-date ban list, while remaining level headed and not being abusive jerks.
BTW, thanks X5. Major kudos for keeping the ignorant masses well-informed.
Which also makes me think people who cheat probably don't really enjoy the games they play. There can be no sense of satisfaction when the goals they may reach are reached by a line of code. I may beat the next guy in a drag race, but if I had to use nitro to beat him and he didn't then I still end up taking home no real trophy. Just a chunk of metal. It must be ego.
Also, I wonder what is the point. What is the point of boosting an ego with people you will never meet? Why maintain an ego from false superiority, when noone cares. Noone gives you credit because you don't deserve it, so why do it? Why not try playing a game instead of downloading the ending? I would much rather enjoy a story and achieve a rank among friends then hold on to a piece of falsehood inside my heart. I just couldn't do that to myself, I like myself too much. Don't cheater like themselves enough to try and enjoy a game. Don't be afraid of it, they are not created to make you fail. They are created to tell a story and bring you enjoyment!
*shrug* some people are just like that.
I've never understood what motivated cheaters to cheat, either.