Commander Embargo
Al_Ka_Pwn
Join Date: 2007-12-26 Member: 63264Members
Join Date: 2007-12-26 Member: 63264Members
<div class="IPBDescription">Insubordination Punishment</div>It would be nice if in NS2 the commander could put an embargo on certain marines for refusing to follow orders
Like for instance you tell your team to defend doubles and drop a bunch of expensive weapons so that they can, and some idiot runs off into the hive and dies with all that equipment, the commander in order to prevent this from happening again places the marine under embargo meaning he is barred from picking up any weapons of any sort, and any armor of any sort and any request for ammo or health is not registered, he is effectively ignored until the embargo is removed, he can still use the armory and his regular weapons he just won't get any new weapons or any expensive armor
And to let his team know that they can't depend on this mutinous individual a red circle with a line through it will hover above his head until the embargo is removed.
This will effectively enforce teamwork
Like for instance you tell your team to defend doubles and drop a bunch of expensive weapons so that they can, and some idiot runs off into the hive and dies with all that equipment, the commander in order to prevent this from happening again places the marine under embargo meaning he is barred from picking up any weapons of any sort, and any armor of any sort and any request for ammo or health is not registered, he is effectively ignored until the embargo is removed, he can still use the armory and his regular weapons he just won't get any new weapons or any expensive armor
And to let his team know that they can't depend on this mutinous individual a red circle with a line through it will hover above his head until the embargo is removed.
This will effectively enforce teamwork
Comments
but there's also the concern that someone could hold a grudge against you, and place an embargo on you for longer than is really necessary, or keep placing an embargo on you the next round when he goes commander again.
or rather than being punished for.. insubordination, you'd be punished just for dying and wasting his resources
but these -are- minority cases.
Regarding possible jackass commanders I have the following idea:
It's already implented in ns that your waypoint disappears when you have reached it.
So I guess you can make a little internal stats-system, which determines wether this player tries to follow waypoints and it will remove/block the embargo, if the player reached enough waypoints or followed enough orders like welding/building stuff.
Of course you have to keep an eye on the changing orders and the system has to check wether the order wasn't followed or has just changed.
Regarding possible jackass commanders I have the following idea:
It's already implented in ns that your waypoint disappears when you have reached it.
So I guess you can make a little internal stats-system, which determines wether this player tries to follow waypoints and it will remove/block the embargo, if the player reached enough waypoints or followed enough orders like welding/building stuff.
Of course you have to keep an eye on the changing orders and the system has to check wether the order wasn't followed or has just changed.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I like that idea, but if the commander was really going out of his way to be a jackass he could just put them where u couldn't reach them, or not put any at all.
Hopefully ejection will be the biggest failsafe against jackass commanders.
<!--quoteo(post=1665819:date=Dec 31 2007, 12:44 PM:name=Al_Ka_Pwn)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Al_Ka_Pwn @ Dec 31 2007, 12:44 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1665819"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Hopefully ejection will be the biggest failsafe against jackass commanders.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I'd rather have a single point of abuse(the comm) than multiple (all marines.)
The exact opposite of what you said. <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/confused-fix.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid="???" border="0" alt="confused-fix.gif" />
I don't know if this currently exists in NS1, but Commanders should be able to give out a limited number of "Medals" to players who follow orders well. This will reward those players who cooperate with the Commander for the greater good of all.
Medals would give a special, persistent bonus to the player who has them. Like +25% damage for a Combat Medal, twice as fast welding rate for a Repair Medal, etc. The Commander could only give out one of each type of Medal. Should a once cooperative player start disobeying orders or simply start f#*%ing up, the Commander could move that Medal to a different player. This is a way in which players would be encouraged to follow orders.
Medals could either be free, or part of the tech tree. The Alien Commander could do the same thing with Genomes.
Handing out +25% damage increase medals? Cool, I wish I had your kindergarten teacher.
well it was actually + 25 candy, but it didn't help much to deter people.
and i forgot to mention that with that system the commander would just hand out medals to everyone at the start of the round, and the marines receive a free buff. GG aliens, even if u limit the amount of medals, that person will just be the commander rambo guy that gets all the guns first. and is open up to all kinds of imba buffs and exploits, and is as open to abuse too. imagine the comm heaping 6 medals on one guy that gives him 6 buffs and you have a killing machine, or six buffs for six people at the beginning of round and you have a killing machine team.
the only way to balance it would be to make all the marines weaker than they are and to have the buff medals make up the difference, and no one wants the whole marine team to be weaker than they are now so that we can have buff medals.
LOL <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/smile-fix.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":)" border="0" alt="smile-fix.gif" />
I did say that the Alien Commander could do the same thing with "Genomes" (which would be similar to Medals, just with a different name and bonuses to fit the Aliens.) So there would be no unfair advantage for the Marine team. Limiting the number of Medals a player can have to 1 will solve that Rambo problem. Medals don't have to be overpowerd game-breaking buffs, just enough buff "candy" to make players feel good about following orders.
Yes, a Commander might simply give them out to his bestfriends rather than as rewards for good playing. That's a bad Commander. And that's the same kind of abuse that would happen with a punishment/embargo system when a bad player is the Commander. Having a Marine stand in the corner and think about what they've done is just as kindergarten-like as giving out candy. And 5-year-olds, space marines, and alien lifeforms are happier with candy.
# a single play of a sport or other contest; "the game lasted two hours"
# a contest with rules to determine a winner; "you need four people to play this game"
# an amusement or pastime; "they played word games"; "he thought of his painting as a game that filled his empty time"; "his life was all fun and games"<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<!--QuoteBegin-Mr. Google S. Earch+--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Mr. Google S. Earch)</div><div class='quotemain'><!--QuoteEBegin--><!--sizeo:4--><span style="font-size:14pt;line-height:100%"><!--/sizeo-->Definitions of <b>punishment</b> on the Web:<!--sizec--></span><!--/sizec-->
# the act of punishing
# a decrease in the likelihood of a response due to the presentation of an aversive stimulus, or in the case of negative punishment, the removal of a positive reinforcing stimulus.
# Punishment is the practice of imposing something unpleasant or aversive on a person or animal in response to an unwanted or disobedient behavior.
# A negative sanction imposed on the violator of a system of rules and imposed by an authorized agent of that system of rules.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<!--sizeo:4--><span style="font-size:14pt;line-height:100%"><!--/sizeo--><a href="http://www.expertvillage.com/videos/housebreaking-dogs-punish.htm" target="_blank">:link:</a><!--sizec--></span><!--/sizec-->
Hmm, that it's contradictory to have a <b>punishment</b> system in a <b>game</b>?
Actually I think there is no need for any punishment, if there is a proper score system in ns2, which also includes welding, building and more, and this score system is somehow connected to the personal res income of each marine, because marines will purchase the given equipment on their own according to the podcasts and thus they will contribute to the team to get more res to spend.
Players refusing to play for the team get less score and thus less ressources to buy fancy stuff.
You can still stand next to someone who is suposed to get a weapon and take it before he reaches it, then say the comm is a prick. With this you don't have any opportunity to get a weapon from comm, so one might go to extremes as not helping a pal who has a SG/HMG to just pick it up after he dies to a kharaa. This will also hurt newbies even further, as no comm really wants a newb to wield a expensive weapon which might turn the tide if used properly.
Comms can still drop directly on marines, I usually do. There are always ways it circumvent, someone who has the gun could always drop assuming it isn't a global ban. I stand by my statement that it's not much different from NS1 and is not inherently a punishment.
So your whole line of thinking is that we shouldn't do this because people can no longer be ######s and steal people's weapons? And this inability to be an ###### will lead to that person being more of an ######?
I think my original idea would be a global ban, so that person who is an ###### can't pick up the weapon of the comrade they just let die. Maybe there would be 2 kinds of an embargo, one embargo used as a tool like locallyunscene stated, and another one that is an anti ###### measure, that applies to all weapons in general no matter where they are.
and I'm not seeing how it would hurt newbs since newbs don't need an HMG, and a GL in order to learn how to play the game. Once they get used to using the starting rifle, they will no longer be newbs.
lol bleeps.
I think my original idea would be a global ban, so that person who is an ###### can't pick up the weapon of the comrade they just let die. Maybe there would be 2 kinds of an embargo, one embargo used as a tool like locallyunscene stated, and another one that is an anti ###### measure, that applies to all weapons in general no matter where they are.
and I'm not seeing how it would hurt newbs since newbs don't need an HMG, and a GL in order to learn how to play the game. Once they get used to using the starting rifle, they will no longer be newbs.
lol bleeps.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
The comm can be just the much of a prick as the field soldiers, the comm might have a grudge with you or favor another player, even if you are just as good as he. Commanders arn't automaticly better people just because they sit in a important chair. You should have the chance to take a weapon if the comm doesn't drop it directly on another marine.
Global ban, way to go to waste more weapons. Example: those without a ban dies, those with ban are the only ones nearby, weapons get wasted as the non-banned ones can't get there in time. Should they stand around and request to be un-banned? Seems like a waste of commanders precious time.
Other scenario: Marine start get attacked suddenly by fades, non-banned marines are quickly disspatched, remaining banned ones can barely make a resistance with LMGs, can you be sure the commander is quick enough to un-ban them before everyone is dead while under stress?
Neither way of banning works very well.
You think newbies are brainwashed soldiers with honour? If you drop a pile of weapons, especially ones newbies rarely see, there will be a rush from EVERYONE to get one of them. Don't you think a newbie will be pissed as hell when he can't even try one because the commander doesn't like him? Shooting with a SG/hmg/GL IS NOT the same as firing with a lmg, if they never get experience, or something new to play with, they will never get as good as veterans and eventually get bored and quit playing.
Will embargo also apply on those who already have a new weapon? Will they simply be forced to drop it and find a lmg lying around? This way the comm can find those who cannot shoot very well meanwhile they wield it, and make them drop it for someone better nearby to pick it up. Further enraging newbies.
It will also encurage commanders to look at the scoreboard (if NS2 gets one, im pretty sure it will) to make their judgement on who deserves what. We want to encurage teamwork, but this would be a step away from it as everyone will rambo around for easily kills to get the commanders attention. It might even go as long as players will accuse each others of being crappy so they can have their fellow mates weapon.
That should never happen, never let embarko in your chair.
That should never happen, never let embarko in your chair.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
?? and what the ###### is that?
more on-topic, a lot of the scenarios discussed by you guys are.. well, a little extreme/unrealistic. both the 'for' and 'against' arguments.
lol
Global ban, way to go to waste more weapons. Example: those without a ban dies, those with ban are the only ones nearby, weapons get wasted as the non-banned ones can't get there in time. Should they stand around and request to be un-banned? Seems like a waste of commanders precious time.
Other scenario: Marine start get attacked suddenly by fades, non-banned marines are quickly disspatched, remaining banned ones can barely make a resistance with LMGs, can you be sure the commander is quick enough to un-ban them before everyone is dead while under stress?
Neither way of banning works very well.
You think newbies are brainwashed soldiers with honour? If you drop a pile of weapons, especially ones newbies rarely see, there will be a rush from EVERYONE to get one of them. Don't you think a newbie will be pissed as hell when he can't even try one because the commander doesn't like him? Shooting with a SG/hmg/GL IS NOT the same as firing with a lmg, if they never get experience, or something new to play with, they will never get as good as veterans and eventually get bored and quit playing.
Will embargo also apply on those who already have a new weapon? Will they simply be forced to drop it and find a lmg lying around? This way the comm can find those who cannot shoot very well meanwhile they wield it, and make them drop it for someone better nearby to pick it up. Further enraging newbies.
It will also encurage commanders to look at the scoreboard (if NS2 gets one, im pretty sure it will) to make their judgement on who deserves what. We want to encurage teamwork, but this would be a step away from it as everyone will rambo around for easily kills to get the commanders attention. It might even go as long as players will accuse each others of being crappy so they can have their fellow mates weapon.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
1: You seem to be forgetting that the weapon stays there long enough for the person to respawn and pick the thing back up if they wanted to, and also the fact that there are a whole bunch of other people on the team means that it will not go to waste
the only way it could is if half of the bloody team was weapon banned which they would have to be for even half your ideas to have any real consequences, at that point they would just obviously boot that jackass commander out of the comm chair, so that point is pretty null.
2. Are you saying that soldiers with honor are brainwashed? nvm, back on topic, newbies don't come with a big sign on their head that says "HAI IMMA NooB GUIZ!" In order to figure that out the commander would constantly have to check the boards over and over again, and if a commander was that damn determined to do it, it would probably happen with or without the ban system anyways.
and for the whole "n3var g3t any nue wepons" to be true the "newb" would have to suck at the game consistently for the whole time he played it.They would have to stay a noob from the first day they got the game till the last day they played it, that just doesn't happen. And your argument that "If U DONt G3t t3h big gunz u won't git betar at dis game" is kinda silly too, you don't need to use the grenade launcher, or the huge machine guns, or the shotguns in order to learn the nuances of this game, to learn the strategies, and the techniques used by aliens, to say so is ridiculous, Once they learn the fundamentals then they will no longer be noobs, so they get to get the big guns, and thats only IF the commander even uses his power that way, which he probably won't unless he's low on rez, and the team wants to win, and he has to in desperate straights, And it would only be a fraction of the team small enough so that they wouldn't kick him. I can't count the number of times an onos was at 2 bars outside base, and the person with the nade launcher just walked outta base with it by himself and died with it, and did the same thing with the next gun. It was the same person who did it over and over again, and in the heat of battle no one could really stop him.
3. I don't see how embargo could apply to people with a new weapon, considering they couldn't pick up the weapon in the first place, unless they got it and then got the embargo, in which case they are probably doing something stupid with it, if it draws enough of the comm's attention to them to ban them from using weapons while holding the weapon.
4. So your saying punishing people for not having any teamwork will cause people to have no team work? thats rubbish. And the score board thing, once again, at most it will probably be about 2 people at any time who won't get weapons IF what you said even happened, because once again, more than that will probably get the comm booted, the comm would also get booted because he's an idiot and doesn't take into account people who build things and the like who are a commodity to the team and generally have less points because of the time consumed building things or the fact that if you have the resources that newbs with bigger guns are better than newbs with tiny guns.
All of your scenarios are unlikely, and ironically enough wouldn't happen to do natural selection, a commander who employed any of your strategies would lose the game, thus being kicked out of the chair. We can safely say that the benefits of this system outweigh all the improbable and unlikely cons, in favor of frequent and very plausible situations that already happen.
You drop weapons mostly because you die, that means there are kharaa in that area, if you sprint directly from spawn to that area you might get the weapon back but realistically you would probably die because of running away alone. None runs after someone who just spawned to x area on the map. Im not saying weapons will be wasted all the time but the situation can occur when the poor banned sod is the only one alive to pick weapons up before the aliens return.
<!--quoteo(post=1666573:date=Jan 7 2008, 05:18 AM:name=Al_Ka_Pwn)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Al_Ka_Pwn @ Jan 7 2008, 05:18 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1666573"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->2. Are you saying that soldiers with honor are brainwashed? nvm, back on topic, newbies don't come with a big sign on their head that says "HAI IMMA NooB GUIZ!" In order to figure that out the commander would constantly have to check the boards over and over again, and if a commander was that damn determined to do it, it would probably happen with or without the ban system anyways.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
What would happen with or without the embargo system? Commanders checking scoreboard? And it would be nice if you didn't try to provoke so badly in your posts, none appreciates having something you've said dumbed down to "W0Rd$ Thut sOUNdz DUMb!11 DUhrr". It's also borderline flaming.
<!--quoteo(post=1666573:date=Jan 7 2008, 05:18 AM:name=Al_Ka_Pwn)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Al_Ka_Pwn @ Jan 7 2008, 05:18 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1666573"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->and for the whole "n3var g3t any nue wepons" to be true the "newb" would have to suck at the game consistently for the whole time he played it.They would have to stay a noob from the first day they got the game till the last day they played it, that just doesn't happen. And your argument that "If U DONt G3t t3h big gunz u won't git betar at dis game" is kinda silly too, you don't need to use the grenade launcher, or the huge machine guns, or the shotguns in order to learn the nuances of this game, to learn the strategies, and the techniques used by aliens, to say so is ridiculous, Once they learn the fundamentals then they will no longer be noobs, so they get to get the big guns, and thats only IF the commander even uses his power that way, which he probably won't unless he's low on rez, and the team wants to win, and he has to in desperate straights, And it would only be a fraction of the team small enough so that they wouldn't kick him. I can't count the number of times an onos was at 2 bars outside base, and the person with the nade launcher just walked outta base with it by himself and died with it, and did the same thing with the next gun. It was the same person who did it over and over again, and in the heat of battle no one could really stop him.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
It isn't just about getting weapons to get good at them (and you need to approach all weapons differently, don't deny it), it's about how many would stay and have fun if they never got anything better then a LMG. Sure they can learn the kinks but they would probably get bored to hell while seeing others running around with bigger guns shooting fades and onis, some may eventually quit playing. If a game doesn't reward you with new stuff, it gets old very quickly.
<!--quoteo(post=1666573:date=Jan 7 2008, 05:18 AM:name=Al_Ka_Pwn)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Al_Ka_Pwn @ Jan 7 2008, 05:18 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1666573"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->3. I don't see how embargo could apply to people with a new weapon, considering they couldn't pick up the weapon in the first place, unless they got it and then got the embargo, in which case they are probably doing something stupid with it, if it draws enough of the comm's attention to them to ban them from using weapons while holding the weapon.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Okay so they get banned while holding the weapon, maybe even they deserve it, but what are they suposed to do after? You can't get a new LMG unless another marine drops one (and those disappear like all other weapons after a while), they would run around with pistol, knife and maybe grenades/welder, not doing any good at all.
<!--quoteo(post=1666573:date=Jan 7 2008, 05:18 AM:name=Al_Ka_Pwn)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Al_Ka_Pwn @ Jan 7 2008, 05:18 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1666573"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->4. So your saying punishing people for not having any teamwork will cause people to have no team work? thats rubbish. And the score board thing, once again, at most it will probably be about 2 people at any time who won't get weapons IF what you said even happened, because once again, more than that will probably get the comm booted, the comm would also get booted because he's an idiot and doesn't take into account people who build things and the like who are a commodity to the team and generally have less points because of the time consumed building things or the fact that if you have the resources that newbs with bigger guns are better than newbs with tiny guns.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Im talking about public, as it still is normally larger then the competitive scene. If you punish someone on a pub with restrictions you will 8/10 cases get a "Why did you do that??" type of response and the same person will try to force the one responsible to lift the ban. People who play like idiots, keeping being idiots even if you take their weapons away, so yes, punishing one person because he isn't contributing to the team will often lead to him not doing anything to the team. People who knows what they are doing wont normally get banned, so they wont cease their teamwork. However, when the commander do ban select people for his own reasons (one or two people) that wont get him ejected, 2 votes doesn't make a difference and most often the rest of the team dosn't give a ###### unless it affects them direcly. Pub coms also rarely keep track players who build stuff, as those who shoot stuff needs their attention more and those who are good at shooting are generally rewarded with better guns because they get the commanders attention. This attention is either via direct observation from commander or via scoreboard.
<!--quoteo(post=1666573:date=Jan 7 2008, 05:18 AM:name=Al_Ka_Pwn)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Al_Ka_Pwn @ Jan 7 2008, 05:18 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1666573"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->All of your scenarios are unlikely, and ironically enough wouldn't happen to do natural selection, a commander who employed any of your strategies would lose the game, thus being kicked out of the chair. ...<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Embargo doesn't work because it can destroy the game for a individual without necessarily ruining it for everyone else. Which is bad taking the whole thing.
How this relates to Commander Embargo? It doesn't, really. I just thought I'd bring it up. But you could say, commander embargo would be just another tedious thing he has to worry about.
After reading the various opinions regarding Commander Embargo, I'd have to say... No. Commander Embargo is <b>not</b> a good idea.