Third Person View For Melee
CanadianWolverine
Join Date: 2003-02-07 Member: 13249Members
Join Date: 2003-02-07 Member: 13249Members
<div class="IPBDescription">Especially the Kharaa melee</div>Consider the solution of having NS2 switch from First Person View, when you use ranged combat which requires accurate aiming, to Third Person View, when you use melee combat which requires spatial knowledge - depth perception in comparison to length of reach to hit and the chances character melee'ing will be hit, whether by knowledge of the use of cover and "peeking", objects that interfere with movement, and if another character melee'ing is close enough to make a hit on the character you control.
In addition, third person melee allows more consideration for animations that look and feel cool to play. As well as admiration for one's individual choices in character coloring and model choices, it takes on a new importance in being able to distinguish your character from others who are using the same 'class' of armor or life form.
Please discuss this idea in detail.
In addition, third person melee allows more consideration for animations that look and feel cool to play. As well as admiration for one's individual choices in character coloring and model choices, it takes on a new importance in being able to distinguish your character from others who are using the same 'class' of armor or life form.
Please discuss this idea in detail.
Comments
Parasites and sof are no excuse to decrease the problem.
Every good skulk player knows how often parasited marines fake an approach to make you reveal your ambush just to jump back and shoot you down.
In case of marines that aren't parasited or in sof field it's the same, if they know about a skulk being around.
3rd person would help the skulk to spot those fake approaches and start the ambush at the right time.
In Insects-Infestation you can try 3rd person view with melee weapons and will hopefully realize that it's a lot more difficult to hit enemies especially regarding the hl2 hit reg for melee weapons.
A big No from me.
...
3rd person would help the skulk to spot those fake approaches and start the ambush at the right time.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Exploit? A benefit of being a Kharaa alien or cybernetic implants I say!
You see Cons, I see Pros.
Better use of cover? Great! Better opportunities to ambush? Great! Better chances for a new player to understand melee and have fun playing the Kharaa? Tony the Tiger: Grrrr-eight!
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->In Insects-Infestation you can try 3rd person view with melee weapons and will hopefully realize that it's a lot more difficult to hit enemies especially regarding the hl2 hit reg for melee weapons.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Strange, I find that easier than trying to melee in first person as a skulk, lerk or fade. I find it interesting you bring up Insects-Infestation, isn't that still in beta or has that been released yet? Still, I think its a great example of how 3rd person view is fun for melee and cover in my own experience with that game.
I've had enjoyable third person and first person experiences in other games before, particularly Elder Scrolls III: Morrowind comes to mind. I think I remember a Star Wars game being mentioned as having fun FPS and TPM before too.
Consider this: why is it many games that involve melee, like Teken, use third person instead of first person? Why do many shooting games use first person instead of third person? <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/wink-fix.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=";)" border="0" alt="wink-fix.gif" />
I'd have to say NO for third person though. there's nothing quite like seeing your mouth chomp an unsuspecting marine to death. so essentially, the key argument here against third person is, "it's just not NS".
Which I find silly, how can a FPV be considered exclusively NS? We already go TPV all the time with the Commander's view point.
Other types of game play other than strictly melee benefit from TPV as well:
- Stealthy
- Platform
Consider why that is, what is it about TPV that helps facilitate those play styles. In stealth, you need to be able to determine if your character is hidden or not, as well as peeking allows one to direct a character to move when the enemy is not looking in their direction. In platform, if you aren't aware of the placement of your characters feet or body relative to pit falls and other traps, it is a very frustrating experience.
What are the problems players encounter as skulks trying to ambush and melee with a marine? Knowing they are hidden or behind cover, if they are not they get shot. Knowing how close they need to be to score a hit with teeth, if not they get shot without delivering any damage. Having to fill ones screen with a close up view of the marine you attack, where if they but side step, you lose the target and have to search for it again, and get shot / knifed. Frustration city.
When I saw the latest blog and the end of the video it was like a light at the end of the tunnel. Even wall walking, leaping, jumping, and running would be easier to grasp.
Could you imagine how hard it would be to play say, Assasin's Creed or Prince of Persia as examples, if they were in FPV? I don't have to, I just go play NS1 and hope part of my character model of the skulk isn't peeking out from behind a corner to be shot at range by a Marine. Playing skulk at times is like trying to play Thief if they had no indicator of how hidden the character is and against rational, gaming savvy human opponents instead of single player bot routines.
Since we are throwing out votes here, mine is probably evident by now: <!--coloro:#00FF00--><span style="color:#00FF00"><!--/coloro-->Vote Yes for TPV & FPV in NS2<!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc-->
But while we're at it, I think they should add a Medal of Honor / Halo 2+ kind of 'look around the corner' thing, for not just skulks, but marines and other aliens.
Actually no, scratch that. I've thought about it and no, that would detract from the experience even more - since it'd be much harder to field ambushes.
...perhaps, I don't know. I can see too much of both the good and bad of it.
NS could simply add TPV as an option that players can go into and out of if they choose to. The only reason I would see why they would want to lock the view to FPV all the time, is to emphasize the hide-and-seek gameplay of not being able to see people sneaking up behind you or around corners.
i dont even see looking around corners as an issue - for starters you can hear around corners/walls to pin point accuracy anyways (because games haven't developed real 3d sound yet), then of course there are the parasites (which you get from the start of the game), and scent of fear, and sensory chambers detecting people.
also the camera doesn't need to be mega zoomed out so you can peak too easily.
And who knows perhaps marines will be able to lean around corners and do the same thing <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/wink-fix.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=";)" border="0" alt="wink-fix.gif" /> Perhaps marines will be able to revive each other ala BF2 / 2142, so aslong as they travel in groups they will be fine.
Perhaps have it as a sensory chamber upgrade called spatial awarness or something. for a creature that relies mostly on stealth and ambusing its a neat feature.
Only downside i can think of is that the camera would need to be smart so when you run into a vent it goes back to 1st person (otherwise you only get a view of your behind)
but by the skulk and lerk i hate that sight
i mean i feel me as have i eat a camera <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/nerd-fix.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid="::nerdy::" border="0" alt="nerd-fix.gif" />
that is unrealistic and make it harder to place a second hit
i think remove the theets
and make a eye sight, not a camera by the theets sight
I have used babelfish
sorry
lmao!
<!--quoteo(post=1665704:date=Dec 30 2007, 09:09 PM:name=darktimes)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(darktimes @ Dec 30 2007, 09:09 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1665704"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->and make a eye sight, not a camera by the theets sight<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
hmm nah, even if it doesn't make sense, it's still just plain fun.
<!--quoteo(post=1665690:date=Dec 30 2007, 02:36 PM:name=N_3)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(N_3 @ Dec 30 2007, 02:36 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1665690"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->the in your face alien combat of first person melee is interesting, gritty and suiting for ns<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
i second that.
<!--quoteo(post=1665691:date=Dec 30 2007, 02:47 PM:name=sanwayzar)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(sanwayzar @ Dec 30 2007, 02:47 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1665691"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Many FPS games these days allow zooming out to TPV if the player prefers that.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
options options options.... we've had this discussion about options in numerous other threads (particularly skulk view rotation) and the devs are mostly against having options that would drastically affect each player's experience, and i have to agree. players' experiences should only differ based on how they play - or something like that, i'm having trouble expressing it.
buuuuut, having said that, though i don't like third person for melee combat - if there were ever vehicles in the NS series, i'd like them in third person view (...have i already mentioned this?)
why?
it make easy`er for new guys
when you know how many times i died as skulk
becose i cant see him when i bite first times.
you are blind when you attack
Pros with a ham fisted system to begin with? I have been playing NS1 for years, and I can still have times when I don't realize my model sticks out from behind cover where I am hiding on the ceiling and get pistol sniped OR when I bite for that split second the teeth come down, lose sight of the marine who gets to unload their clip and then whip out a knife into what feels like my blind deaf and dumb skulk? You mean to tell me, the pros even accidentally clip into an object they didn't mean to, get held up and have re-orient themselves? Why should my battles as a skulk suffer for not having intimate knowledge of the quirks of this or that hit box, player model or map model?
Skulks have helped me learn more about patience, not all players are as forgiving as I am. Please, stop defending broken game mechanics that hurt both pro and noob. I wonder if similar objections were made when the Fade blink was changed in NS1...
Very good suggestions, I concur aka I could have a lot of fun gaming with that!
Could peeking be a possible upgrade? A by product of the use of scent of fear or the weld bot ...
Peeking is not a foreign concept to the future warrior, not even past ones, as in use a mirror to look around the corner and stuff.
Good point.
<!--quoteo(post=1665666:date=Dec 29 2007, 06:10 PM:name=CanadianWolverine)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(CanadianWolverine @ Dec 29 2007, 06:10 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1665666"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Other types of game play other than strictly melee benefit from TPV as well:
- Stealthy
- Platform<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
This is true and skulks/lerks are generally "stealthy" lifeforms. But the Fade really needs FPV to blink properly. So only some aliens would have TPV? Sound like this is getting too complicated.
<!--quoteo(post=1665690:date=Dec 30 2007, 12:36 AM:name=N_3)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(N_3 @ Dec 30 2007, 12:36 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1665690"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->The in your face alien combat of first person melee is interesting, gritty and suiting for NS<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
The first time I read this I didn't agree, but FPV is really tied to some alien key abilities(most fade abilities, lerk projectiles, skulk parasite), and mixing it up would break the distinctive "teeth" view.
<!--quoteo(post=1665696:date=Dec 30 2007, 02:34 AM:name=schkorpio)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(schkorpio @ Dec 30 2007, 02:34 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1665696"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I've played many mods and games that have melee and a need for better spatial awarness, and 3rd person is the way to go.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I agree but I think the previous concerns are more important. To paraphrase Max, Why give players a choice when one options fits better? TPV is better for melee, but melee only makes up a part of aliens abilities and it would make movement and projectile abilities more difficult. On top of that TP camera's are notoriously difficult to perfect in small corridors/rooms (~80% of NS as you know).
<!--quoteo(post=1665780:date=Dec 31 2007, 01:55 AM:name=BCSeph)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(BCSeph @ Dec 31 2007, 01:55 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1665780"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Using sound/parasite to see where marines are around corners is a tactical skill...with third person, not many would use these, thus less of a skill cap.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
True, but making the ambush play style more accessible isn't necessarily a bad thing. Sound and para have other uses than strictly ambush settings.
...NS doesn't follow that principle. Whats in front of you is what you hit, as there is only one form of attack (gore, bite, etc.) So theoretically having 3rd person view would do nothing but confuse the player even more because it would be a lot harder to actually land a bite. Imagine playing as a fade with 3rd person view.. It just wouldn't work. Same thing goes for a leaping skulk. Sure, it would be handy to know what you look like on your current surroundings/environment, but TBH it would only make combat and/or actual gameplay harder,<b> not to mention the fact that people would just hold down attack and move around</b> (*cough* Hellgate:London - Blademaster/Blue lightsaber stance in JK2.)<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<!--quoteo(post=1672664:date=Mar 9 2008, 01:03 AM:name=naggy)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(naggy @ Mar 9 2008, 01:03 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1672664"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->(More JK2 rant)
...And for the record, I'll say it again: <b>NS uses straight-forward attacks.</b> There is no variation, so 3rd person Isn't needed. If they were to put variated attacks in NS2 (I don't see how this would be beneficial and/or work anyways) it would do nothing but make the game more complicated and hard to play because melee attacks don't have a visual range of effect. You just hit whats in front of your face.
Oh, and using 3rd person <b>would make any type of high-speed orientated lifeform</b> - which happens to be the main attribute of the Kharaa offensive units - <b>useless</b> due to the fact that you would never be able to get a hit off unless you were moving at walk speed.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Need I say more? Also.. How on earth does the Skulk's bite hinder your gameplay? It chomps down for like 0.25 or so of a second and you can easily see your surroundings if you hold down the button..
It seems that people have lost the concept: The reason why the camera is inside the mouth is because that <b>is</b> the weapon. From what I've been reading a lot of the people wanting TPV seem to feel like they are referring to the Skulk as the weapon, not It's mouth.
Edit:
<!--quoteo(post=1665632:date=Dec 29 2007, 11:44 AM:name=CanadianWolverine)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(CanadianWolverine @ Dec 29 2007, 11:44 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1665632"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Consider this: why is it many games that involve melee, like Teken, use third person instead of first person? Why do many shooting games use first person instead of third person? <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/wink-fix.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=";)" border="0" alt="wink-fix.gif" /><!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I'm not sure if you actually blocked/ignored me but I'm going to reply to this directly anyways. Games that have multiple variants of melee attacks rely on TPV because there is so much variation. You don't just have one punch and one kick, you have like 12 different moves available to you at any point in time. In games like Tekken and Jedi Knight 2, this is essential. You cannot play without it. In games like NS, where there is only one melee damage dealing ability, you need FPV otherwise things are too complicated and frustrating. Also, due to the fact that most Kharaa classes have 2-3 support abilities (leap, blink, umbra, etc.) FPV is favored because It's somewhat needed to unlock the abilities full potential.
Marines popping out from empty hallways as your line of sight hits them might be a bit confusing. The code for spotting aliens via marine los is way too inaccurate in ns. For example the best way to spot a hive for sieges is not to look at it but to shoot at it. I wonder how accurate they can make the spotting on the new engine.
Then again, I'd like to have some way to confirm the skulk positioning while climbing or hiding behind something.