Don't forget your roots
kabab
Join Date: 2003-12-15 Member: 24384Members, Constellation
Join Date: 2003-12-15 Member: 24384Members, Constellation
<div class="IPBDescription">Some friendly advice.</div>Something I've noticed in other games / moves sequels etc is...
Quiet often the sequel / XXXX 2 game is ruined because the dev's forget / over look what made the original so great and get side tracked with funky new features etc....
For me what made NS1 one of the best designed games i have <u><b>ever</b></u> played was....
How different both teams where.
The RTS/FPS synergy.
The com chair.
The resource model and how both teams where very different.
The contrast in fighting styles for each team.
Open ended gameplay (place turrents how ever you want, spend how you like etc etc).
The trick movements (bunny hopping and such).
Please don't forget these basic things none of these things in my opinion need to be changed significantly and if they are changed to much NS may much of its original lure.
<< devoted fan
Quiet often the sequel / XXXX 2 game is ruined because the dev's forget / over look what made the original so great and get side tracked with funky new features etc....
For me what made NS1 one of the best designed games i have <u><b>ever</b></u> played was....
How different both teams where.
The RTS/FPS synergy.
The com chair.
The resource model and how both teams where very different.
The contrast in fighting styles for each team.
Open ended gameplay (place turrents how ever you want, spend how you like etc etc).
The trick movements (bunny hopping and such).
Please don't forget these basic things none of these things in my opinion need to be changed significantly and if they are changed to much NS may much of its original lure.
<< devoted fan
Comments
IMHO, a 'rational upgrade' for NS2 would be along the lines of something like this:
-Change the Resource model slightly. Still have about the same number and same general layouts, but perhaps have three or more different types rather than a simply 'res node'. I.e., each room could have a power source, or a steam valve, or a computer terminal, etc that are capped in different ways (simply a different model and animation for each) but are also open to give side benefits. Lighting could be affected, engine parts moved, doors opened, all which favours the team that capped the node. Or they could just do nothing, but simply appear cooler and more 'realistic'?
-Add DI. But either as simply a visual, or go very easy on its functional use. I can't fathom how they plan to integrate it in any serious way without breaking many other parts of NS or ruining the framerate.
-Fix the learning curve. While maintaining the beauty of the current NS classes, find other ways to help new players figure out the gameplay. And definitely tutorial videos.
-'Fix' the ambience of the maps. I mean to simply bring back some the old ambient effects, at least partially. When I started this game, it felt like an Aliens movie (bast holds a bit of this still), whereas many of the current maps look like an Aliens movie during midday under a red sun. Perhaps even include second versions of each map with the excessive lighting for the competitive scene, if it'll keep them quiet. Only costs compile time (since game size doesn't matter for retail games).
-Add some 'additional' dynamics. Keep the current general gameplay model, but find ways to add onto it. A great way would be a new proto tech: some new high-tech weapon or suit that could be a third/fourth/fifth method of attacking a hive. Good ideas so far have included a Phase Suit (low armor, slow ability, but lets the player teleport), a Stealth Suit (Active chamouflage and quiet footsteps, but restricted weapons and lowered armor), and even a Laser Weapon (slow RoF, sees through walls, meant mainly for hitting chambers and extra damage on a hive during siege). Another good idea was the one Flayra mentioned about skulk's Sniffing; an extra Scout-ish ability of skulks to gain a proximity Scent of Fear, while hopefully still keeping Parasites.
-Add some cool visuals like dev support for landing ships into MS, etc.
<a href="http://www.unknownworlds.com/ns2/about/" target="_blank">About NS2</a>
I am confused, what are you worried about exactly? Looks to me like they have you covered.
I don't remember if we explicitly talked about it in the podcast, but Charlie and I both take a lot of inspiration from the book <a href="http://books.google.com/books?id=LUc3dA35ADEC&pgis=1" target="_blank">Built to Last</a>. The book is about the unique qualities of "visionary" companies and what allows them to succeed despite there being a lot of change around them (most of the companies discussed in the book are close to 100 years old). One of the things they identify in the book is that these companies have strong core values around which all other decisions are made. Many of these companies have made significant changes to their business while staying true to their core values.
In addition to using this mindset for our company, we also apply it to developing Natural Selection 2. We're identified our core values (essentially the pillars) and all of the decisions about the game are made with respect to whether or not they further those goals.
The pillars are (slightly different wording than Charlie used in the podcast):<ul><li>Teamwork</li><li>Two unique sides</li><li>Dynamic gameplay</li><li>User extensibility</li></ul>The points you mention largely fit within these pillars. The real-time strategy/FPS hybrid game play is part of the team play pillar. Fighting styles, interesting movement, etc. is two unique sides. Different strategies -- like placing turrets, tech tree, relocating, welding as well as some new stuff we've talked about for NS2 -- is dynamic gameplay, where each game can play out in a new way.
I know they are just idea's / prototypes which is important to do at this stage of development....
Just reminding <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/smile-fix.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":)" border="0" alt="smile-fix.gif" />
Personally, I'm just really excited for what a new engine will do for NS. I remember how groundbreaking NS1 was for the original Half Life engine. <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/smile-fix.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":)" border="0" alt="smile-fix.gif" />
Edit- D'oh, filter got me. Fatherless child and so forth.
make a NS1:source befor you implement somting new
that change gameplay
im relativ new
but i love NS
and i will not that you make a mistake when you add
things that effect gameplay to strong
sorry for my bad enghlish
Indeed. I've never got good at it, but its still one of the most addictive gaming features I've ever experienced. I love how the movement is always a necessity and most often the fight stay mobile instead stationary duck'n'fire.
1) Learn to bunnyhop and do it for about a month.
2) Play counterstrike.
3) Get bored and quit counterstrike after an hour of playing because you get utterly bored holding down the W key while nothing happens.
1b) or this <a href="http://www.warsow.net/?page=download" target="_blank">http://www.warsow.net/?page=download</a>
2.) bunny hop in warsow
2b) are happy
3.) try tremuluos
3b) bunnyhop
3c) have fun
ps: counter strike was boring and stupid whit bunnyhop too
Beware of my and SilverWolfs return.
i think its ridicullus for when new players get annahillated by wild jumping pros who play NS from first release on
you can say what you want, fact is, its a movemend glitch <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/tounge.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":p" border="0" alt="tounge.gif" />
i think for a game like NS whit marines and aliens its a big addmoshere killer
(for quake its ok )
i can a little bid bunnyhop, but you can make everthing youre not so fast like a fade blink or good lerk fly
( i think also its make it harder to balance the game )
things like wallstrafing is a glitch too, but not so powerfull and addmoshere killing like bunnyhop
and have aliens not abbilites like leap, flying, blink and rush? i think its not needed to implement bunnyhop
and marines have phasetech or?
( but when its implemented, make it plz really really harder to make and less effectiv)
and to the vido above: its look not cool, its look really unfair for the alien players (EDIT: ups sorry wrong thread but same topic
Quiet often the sequel / XXXX 2 game is ruined because the dev's forget / over look what made the original so great and get side tracked with funky new features etc....
For me what made NS1 one of the best designed games i have <u><b>ever</b></u> played was....
How different both teams where.
The RTS/FPS synergy.
The com chair.
The resource model and how both teams where very different.
The contrast in fighting styles for each team.
Open ended gameplay (place turrents how ever you want, spend how you like etc etc).
<!--coloro:#FF0000--><span style="color:#FF0000"><!--/coloro--><i>The trick movements (bunny hopping and such).</i><!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc-->
Please don't forget these basic things none of these things in my opinion need to be changed significantly and if they are changed to much NS may much of its original lure.
<< devoted fan<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Me like all, except the Bunny hopping, its NOT a Trick its a glitch.
Team Fortress 2 and all other games be good without that nerd glitch.
I hope Natural Selection 2 get the same very good Quality like TF2.
But its a very long time until NaSe 2 will release.
And i find tf2's movement pretty boring compared to NS'. This is coming from a guy who played the original Quake TF for about two years.
rofl
I'd rather gut myself than have NS2 turn out like TF2.
I don't like 4second hitbox lag or bullets that don't hit targets at point blank range.
That sounds like NS to me.
ROFL
Anyways, I'd like to direct anti-bhoppers towards an article: <a href="http://www.sirlin.net/archive/playing-to-win-part-1/" target="_blank">http://www.sirlin.net/archive/playing-to-win-part-1/</a>
im neither anti or pro b hopping.
i cant b hop at least not well, tho it may have saved my ass once. I can see the value in having skills players need to competitvly develop to add depth to the game. Ive never had a major problem with b hoppers as i havnt encounter that many that exploit it to the max. My main issue with it is it looks stupid and makes the marines feel like gymnasts rather than soldiers. On the game play side i dont really have a problem with it tho, aslong as players dont script it.
Bunny hopping is such a big part of being a skulk.
Anyways, I'd like to direct anti-bhoppers towards an article: <a href="http://www.sirlin.net/archive/playing-to-win-part-1/" target="_blank">http://www.sirlin.net/archive/playing-to-win-part-1/</a><!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Yes, I have read that article before but you do a disservice by possibly implying that bhopping will exist in NS2 as it did in NS1. It does not address that those you have labeled as anti-bhoppers may have no issue with bhopping itself, but such things as how it is done or how it looks and meshes with the other parts of the game play experience - those are all things that can change and still have bhopping. Bunny Hopping will change or not exist, the code is being re-written for the entire game - the engine being used is different and the game is no longer a mod, using another game's code. This is almost from scratch - almost being that they have Source to work from.
If we were still talking about NS1 and playing NS1, the article is dead on but this part of the forums is for NS2, a game in development. As such, all opinions and ideas are valid within the constraints of viable implementation, which is not decided by us, the fans and forum participants, but those actively involved in the process, the Developers, in this case, Unknown Worlds.
This is not the point at which that article "Playing To Win" has merit, that part comes later when we get to play NS2 for the first time, then we can all do our best to meet the victory conditions together.
Instead, you could always just toss out your own opinions and ideas on Bunny Hopping rather than trying to smear other's.
No, it's not. It's a faster mode of transport but that's about it. What <i>is</i> important for every class in the game is air control.
I don't imply anything. All I have done is respond to those who don't want to see bhopping in NS2.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->It does not address that those you have labeled as anti-bhoppers may have no issue with bhopping itself, but such things as how it is done or how it looks and meshes with the other parts of the game play experience - those are all things that can change and still have bhopping. Bunny Hopping will change or not exist, the code is being re-written for the entire game - the engine being used is different and the game is no longer a mod, using another game's code. This is almost from scratch - almost being that they have Source to work from.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
It does, however, address the people who complain that bhopping was originally unintended and therefore should be removed and those who complain that it is unbalanced.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->If we were still talking about NS1 and playing NS1, the article is dead on but this part of the forums is for NS2, a game in development. As such, all opinions and ideas are valid within the constraints of viable implementation, which is not decided by us, the fans and forum participants, but those actively involved in the process, the Developers, in this case, Unknown Worlds.
This is not the point at which that article "Playing To Win" has merit, that part comes later when we get to play NS2 for the first time, then we can all do our best to meet the victory conditions together.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I'm not sure if you realized this, but others were basing their arguments against bhopping based off NS1. How exactly am I supposed to respond to their arguments, if not in the same context?
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Instead, you could always just toss out your own opinions and ideas on Bunny Hopping<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I agree with the article. I didn't see the point in typing out a long post that nobody would read when I could just link to a well-written essay that was perfectly relevant.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->rather than trying to smear other's.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
If you think my post was a smear, you need to grow thicker skin.
It does, however, address the people who complain that bhopping was originally unintended and therefore should be removed and those who complain that it is unbalanced.
I'm not sure if you realized this, but others were basing their arguments against bhopping based off NS1. How exactly am I supposed to respond to their arguments, if not in the same context?
I agree with the article. I didn't see the point in typing out a long post that nobody would read when I could just link to a well-written essay that was perfectly relevant.
If you think my post was a smear, you need to grow thicker skin.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
See, this is a more detailed post, had this been your first post which was more generally directed towards those who dislike bunny hopping, what confusion would there have been? Seeing as it was a general statement against anti-bhoppers, yes, it was in fact a smear. If you try to paint everyone with the same brush, you're not going to get a very good picture. So sometimes, a slightly longer post can help.
And since we are discussing the possibilities in NS2 here, unless I mistakingly find myself in the NS1 forums, the arguments against bunny hopping I have read don't just pertain to NS1 alone. Bunny hopping in many games breaks the immersion. There have been jokes made about bunny hopping in World War 2 games before. Anti-bunny hopping is not exclusive to NS1, it is a design choice for which many find it to be a odds to their otherwise immersive gaming experiences. One of the reasons it is called "bunny" in the first place is because it looks so silly and out of place. Though, done right, it adds to the atmosphere immensely, as seen with the acrobatics possible in Unreal Tournament 2004 and such - with good animations and control schemes it is no longer a bunny hop but a entertaining battle gun fu, like a stylistic John Woo action film or Max Payne or so on...
Sure, once it is in and part of the game, then use it to win. But seeing as they are developing NS2, why does the invisible pogo stick have to stay? Offer up some ideas of your own on the subject of NS2.
.. and that dont fit in the ns atmoshere
whatever
youre right whit the BUNNY in the name
in a other tread, i dont know where is a vido from a bunnyhoper
as i see this have i think "man is that unfair for the lerk and skulk, pownd by a legastenic marine rambo"
(he was alone at hte hive)
IMHO, I disagree, those who made NS1 leaving bunny hopping and air control in NS1 lets me pretty well definitely know that they intended it to fit into NS atmosphere, unfortunately the animations and control scheme weren't quite there, but that isn't all that surprising, we did get a free mod to Half-Life 1 after all. Seeing as I am going to shelling out for it this time, I hope I will get some better animations and control scheme to go with that jump movement, though, even if they don't I'll toss them my money just as a bit of appreciation for all the fun the mod gave me. Depending on how NS2 works out, I may continue shelling out for further expansions, sequels, merchandise, novels, graphic novels, movies...
For the marines, the backwards jump is very useful and very skill based. Even then, it only give the marine an extra few feet of distance. I'd suggest to keep something like this for marines, but remove the ability to use it more than once in a row.
Skulks, well, the skill-based movement of bunnyhopping is like no other. With it, a good skulk can be much more combat effective, which is something skulks are inherently lacking, hence their need to ambush. Skulks are very good at ambushing; straight on combat, they're at a huge disadvantage without bhop. Leave it in, and leave skulks as a skill-based class.
It's a very good point. Air control does nothing to inhibit the atmosphere, and is integral to any enjoyable NS experience I can imagine. Bhopping repeatedly on the other hand, in my opinion, while a great element of gameplay, is much less necessary if you're looking for things to change in NS2.