Again, with the power of the Source trigger system, mappers could make it so that welded doors would take 30 hits from any lifeform to open, while only taking one hit from an onos. A simple little feat like this would give the onos a boost in its use and role within the team, without boosting any of its direct weapons.
schkorpioI can mspaintJoin Date: 2003-05-23Member: 16635Members
<!--quoteo(post=1663302:date=Dec 9 2007, 09:28 AM:name=StixNStonz)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(StixNStonz @ Dec 9 2007, 09:28 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1663302"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Again, with the power of the Source trigger system, mappers could make it so that welded doors would take 30 hits from any lifeform to open, while only taking one hit from an onos. A simple little feat like this would give the onos a boost in its use and role within the team, without boosting any of its direct weapons.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> but you might as well have it coded intot he gmae so the mapper doesn't have to do any work other than placing the door <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/smile-fix.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":)" border="0" alt="smile-fix.gif" /> i'd like to think of ns2 maps as "shells" . Kind of like an empty ns1 map, no doors, res towers, just a plain empty level. Then its up to the players to decide how they want to change the level to influence a particular outcome.
Why not have it so the commander can build doors in preselected areas?
TheAdjHe demanded a cool forum title of some type.Join Date: 2004-05-03Member: 28436Members, NS1 Playtester, Constellation
For the bot, make it controllable by the commander like a regular RTS unit would be, but also give it the ability to autocast weld (so it will run around and weld by itself). Having units commander controllable like that would be amazing.
Taking the idea of a spider-like bot that can roll up into a ball, i've been toying around with concepts in my head. Anyone object to me modeling and animating a prototype?
schkorpioI can mspaintJoin Date: 2003-05-23Member: 16635Members
<!--quoteo(post=1663309:date=Dec 9 2007, 09:59 AM:name=StixNStonz)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(StixNStonz @ Dec 9 2007, 09:59 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1663309"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Taking the idea of a spider-like bot that can roll up into a ball, i've been toying around with concepts in my head. Anyone object to me modeling and animating a prototype?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> not at all, but i'd prefer a hovaring skorpion <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/biggrin-fix.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":D" border="0" alt="biggrin-fix.gif" /> lol 4 manipulator arms and a welding stinger <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/biggrin-fix.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":D" border="0" alt="biggrin-fix.gif" />
There is a lot of talk about welding using HL2's physics model. I'm wondering, to what extent are you planning to take advantage of HL2 physics in NS2? - Will there be a lot of "junk"-objects lying around levels? - Will throwing these objects be part of the game? (fades throwing objects just like the gravity gun) - Will using these objects be part of the game? (like the welding proposed here) - will there be produced objects that would be used using physics? (Bile bombs that could bounce off walls or be shot down) I know, discussions on this go way back, even before HL2 came out, but I haven't heard anything about this recently. Please, point me in the right direction where i could find more info on physics use in NS2.
Welding will obviously be a big part of the dynamic environment. I see a lot of great possibilities, primarily because it requires the player to be good beyond just aiming/shooting well. When i thought about welding i imagined something like what Garo suggested. There would weldable objects that would respond to welding and aliens: doors that can be locked shut or broken, lights that can be repaired or cut off, moving platforms, water pumps, and other stuff - weldable objects that mappers can use in their map designs. I think that using objects lying around the map and welding them together might be cool at first, but in the long-run it could become extremely messy.
For those not aware of them, here are the pillar stones of NS2. This is basically a quote of Charlie from 9th Podcast starting at 13:20: "Cause the core, the big kind of 4 pillars for NS2 are 1) the dynamic infestation, or should I say “dynamic environments†- it’s not just infestation. We hope that it’s going to be much more than that, which includes the new welding system and anything else we can do to make the environments really - maybe not living and breathing - but definitely reactive and changing during the course of the game. 2) And the second pillar would be the commander mode. Obviously it’s a distinctive feature for NS. Other people might do it, but they don’t really go the distance quite as far as we do. So that’s the second one. 3) Totally different sides that’s a difference for us, too, which obviously you saw in NS. We’re going to see it even more in NS2. 4) And then the whole modding and user extensibility component, which for us is largely about Dacoda and the fact that we’re doing everything in script and setting things up building the infrastructure for players to really make their own game out of this or mod NS2 and tweak things the way they want. There’s more than that. Those are the pillar stones, though. 5?) ...Is the Scorpion that hovers - is he pillar five?"
The Weld bod would be awesome, i would think it would be funny to have a little robot following me around the map welding me but not fast enough to withstand any attack.
Also once the weld bot dies it should drop a welder that the humans can use.
I have an idea!
Why not have a portable sentry that can follow a marine that shoots maybe pistol rounds at slow rates? But it only has little health say 20 or 40? It feeds off the marines suit absorbing the marines armor maybe until it runs out which causes the sentry to deactivate until someone else powers it up?
i like the weld bot idea <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/smile-fix.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":)" border="0" alt="smile-fix.gif" />
and im still pro door welding. it could be balanced and made acessable.
In ns1 everyone recognises weld spots because they are uniform
So in ns 2 weldable doors could be uniform or have 2 or 3 visual variations. but basically if the doors that could be welded had a common appearance players would associate welding with them.
Its been mentioned that players could weld doors shut and screw the rest of their team. well it could be realyy quick for other players to deweld doors, and the comm could select doors and remove teh welding on them in a sec or 2.
Its also been mentioned that aliens cud get very miffed having to munch doors continually. well maybe the function of door welding has to be matched to a tactical purpose. rather than welding a door down for a permanent defence it could be temporay. for situations like the following. some of ur team mates get munched by an onos only a couple of corridors away from u. and u know ur position is important, impending alien attack. So u weld the door as the aliens nail it towards u.
However as soon as welding is done the weld starts to degrade. plus any aliens attacking it it will get broken thru but itl slow em down enuth for reenforcements to arrive. If welded doors have their welding degrade over a constant rate until the welding colapses it will mean aliens wont be cursed with havig to batter doors down all the time, unless all the rines have got nothing better to do than weld constantly. The quality of the weld could be a factor in its strength. and the time it takes to weld, the time to destory and the time to degrade could all be playtested out
The main thing I disagree with here is that NS has lots of boring activities. I agree that munching a RT can be tedious, but I think welding and building are high points of the game. These non-combat activities are there for the express purpose of having "down time". You can't have "up" time with out it! It also lets you catch your breath and recharge your batteries a bit.
Hehe, agreed, thats why i was always saying 'boring' activities <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/biggrin-fix.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":D" border="0" alt="biggrin-fix.gif" />
Most games dont give the option of downtimes. They also tend to not give the chance of real 'uptimes' like you find in NS; try to find me a single game of CS that can ever compare to a perfectly balanced 2nd hive siege battle. No chance.
If welding is done properly it could be really good, would need to make sure the marine game doesn't become too dependent on it though. Controllable bots i'm not really a big fan of though, ns is unique in the fact thats the comm orders around actual people in an rts setting - which is good. Marines buying their own items is also taking away from the comm ordering people around, players can get welders/guns by themselves and run off doing their own thing.
The main thing I disagree with here is that NS has lots of boring activities. I agree that munching a RT can be tedious, but I think welding and building are high points of the game. These non-combat activities are there for the express purpose of having "down time". You can't have "up" time with out it! It also lets you catch your breath and recharge your batteries a bit.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
NS does have ups and downs, and certainly, you have a valid point that the boring activities allow a breather from all the action. Just make sure to not take the boring activities to the next level, as I would be concerned about losing people who enjoy the fast-paced action of NS.
Too much welding would cause boredom just as too much building would do. On the other hand, if you tilt the balance on the other side, some might term it as too much action (but not I. There is no such thing as too much action <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/tounge.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":p" border="0" alt="tounge.gif" />. The faster, less boring games are always better, imho. But others might disagree :x).
I guess there's a ying/yang sorta thing going on. A little bit of action for every boring activity, and vice versa. Just don't put too much emphasis on the boring/slow side, please. Keep it fast paced and moving.
Boxing would be a great analogy here. Boxing is fast, yet slow. Precise, yet messy. Powerful, yet weak for it takes hundreds of punches to win a fight. Hopefully NS2 will resemble this, and minimize the time in between rounds (slow time of standing still building or welding).
Dark RageJoin Date: 2007-12-05Member: 63081Members
My vision of how welding should be implemented would be to have some doors have a service panel that would have to first be welded which would give access to an emergency override type of control button. That way you can easily decide if you want the door open or closed. On the alien side the DI could infest the access panel which would give them control of the door (marines would have to take care of the DI before they could reopen the door). Make it so both teams have to vie over the doors and if your team controls a certain point it would allow you to set up a forced choke point (skulk ambushes or say marine trying to hold a siege room). While I agree having a more immersive weld with solder would add to the depth and variability of the game play I think it would be too complicated. I think welding and DI should give their team access to map specific triggers (life support systems anyone?).
The main thing I disagree with here is that NS has lots of boring activities. I agree that munching a RT can be tedious, but I think welding and building are high points of the game. These non-combat activities are there for the express purpose of having "down time". You can't have "up" time with out it! It also lets you catch your breath and recharge your batteries a bit.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
In NS, welding mainly takes the form of welding other marines during combat, there's little downtime involved when you have to quickswitch out the welder between fades blinking in. Building is fine downtime, its pretty critical actually because otherwise marines would have a massive advantage when trying to siege. The boring activities people are talking about are things like building base the first 30 seconds of the game, skulks munching on RTs, etc. It's a challenge to convince people to attack RTs when they know marines are nearby or build sieges with skulks flying into the room, but there's only so much game mechanics can do to reinforce that behavior. I would say the highpoint involved is actually getting people to do it, not that the activity is fun itself.
1. I've never been bored in an NS match. The more mundane activities always have some strategic purpose, and I am all about advancing my team for great justice. Generally I favor the support classes in games so building, welding etc are things I have no problem with, and there are plenty of other people out there like me.
2. If I had the ability to build barriers out of physics objects, I would never ever consider the remotest possibility of being bored in an NS game <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/smile-fix.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":)" border="0" alt="smile-fix.gif" />
"Weld bot" (aka Weld Monkey) For NS2 I think it would be a great idea in a supporting role as long as you could customize the abilities <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/nerd-fix.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid="::nerdy::" border="0" alt="nerd-fix.gif" />
A member TMC put a working ns marine bots at kck he calls Guard dogs . And there kinda kool to play with when bored <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/marine.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid="::marine::" border="0" alt="marine.gif" /> Here's a quote from a post : Last time I tried, rcbots it would crash the server everytime, unless I turned off amxmodx. I did write a crude marine bot program that is running on the #2 server. There is also a plugin running to control them. ((These bots are dumb as a box of rocks but can be useful for learning to use the comm chair. Some of what they can do: Shoot the aliens with deadly accuracy,Build structures, Weld structures, Weld teammates, Use phasegates,Call for health & ammo,Follow waypoint that are in their line of sight,Follow other teammates < Like a leach lol Some of what they can't do: Find their own way around the map,Use the armory for health and armor, Weld weldpoints (working on the math), Use buttons, Use the command chair .))
What if there are some people that LIKE not having strategy being handed to them/immediately available?
What if there are people that prefer to work at keeping the enemy on their feet because they never know when an area will be no longer available to them or the enemy may burst out of at any moment?
Do you really want to exclude those players from your game, or do you think that it would be key to involve those players in achieving victory?
I think Carlie is on the right track as far as including everyone in a game. So you may not be the best on the team at fragging, why not make sure the enemy has to keep on their feet and at the same time, help your team? Thanks for keeping in mind that NS2 shouldn't be another DM fragfest clone.
lunchtimemamaMistress of lighting designJoin Date: 2007-06-08Member: 61166Members
<!--quoteo(post=1663285:date=Dec 8 2007, 09:14 PM:name=EmpV)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(EmpV @ Dec 8 2007, 09:14 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1663285"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec--><i>Dynamic Infestation is effectively a "welder" for the alien team.</i><!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> I want to second this frame of mind. Welding as a counter to DI is a very interesting idea and should, I think, be the prime consideration when determining how welding works. The two ought to be conceived/developed/balanced in tandem.
However much I love the idea of dynamic gameplay, there's a few...
<b>Problems:</b>
You and your fellow marine are in a room with a resource node and 3 entrances. You quickly weld two of the entrances shut, place one of the marines aiming at the only remaining entrance (the one that's the natural route for marines) and no skulks have a chance of killing them.
Fades will get totaly anihilated by the fact that they can never be certain about any secure escaperoutes.
With the use of welding, marines can control their environment to make it immensely hard for aliens to get an element of surprise.
Locked doors are never fun in any game.
A stupid marine can lock down every single area of the map.
Monotone biting while watching a progressbar is boring.
The game is about advancing and claiming new grounds, not locking yourself in.
Aliens busting doors open make easy targets, just have a marine or two with a shotgun on the other side waiting, and the aliens are toast.
Building up miniature bases with turrets is a lot more fun.
<u>Using laser mines in doorways are a lot more fun.</u>
Welding should involve a severe choice of the entire marine team (or commander), and not be the default thing to do.
<b>Ideas</b>
Make welding require two players full attention, so that they make easy targets while welding, add an easily distinguishable sound so aliens know there's easy kills behind the corner. This way it won't get overused, and you don't give a single marine too much power over his surroundings.
Make welded doors easily breakable by Gorges, Fades and Onoses, especially Gorges and Onoses. How would you try to destroy a welded door yourself with your bere teeth? It just doesn't make any sense that you can bite a door open, while it does that you can bilebomb, charge, gore and so on.
Make welding impossible until midgame, basicly require the commander to upgrade until at least 10 minutes into the game before welding can be accessed. This would allow aliens to get some stronger lifeforms to open the weldings.
More doors add a lot more claustrofobic feeling to the game, which I think has been missing for a long time. There has to be that little excitement of "what's waiting behind the door", the unknown always excites.
Make the use of minibases more accessable. It's a lot more interesting to have the marine base spread out over the map, than just a central hub somewhere far away that players never really see or interact with. It was the whole minibase & relocating, and mineing doorways shut (back in the days when they had a red beam) that got me into the game in the first place.
locallyunsceneFeeder of TrollsJoin Date: 2002-12-25Member: 11528Members, Constellation
<!--quoteo(post=1663428:date=Dec 10 2007, 04:36 AM:name=eoy)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(eoy @ Dec 10 2007, 04:36 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1663428"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Fades will get totally annihilated by the fact that they can never be certain about any secure escape routes. With the use of welding, marines can control their environment to make it immensely hard for aliens to get an element of surprise.
Locked doors are never fun in any game.
The game is about advancing and claiming new grounds, not locking yourself in.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> I think these are all pretty important points. I hope DI would block welding of doors, or at least make it very time consuming. Also, fades could have the a limited ability to go through these doors? The fade is a very offensive unit currently and this style of welding would take away from that.
Locked doors are not fun, but only when you can't get through them at all. As long as a skulk could bash it down I think the mechanic is able to be balanced.
The last bit it pretty important too. You're making marines the "defensive" team. In NS both teams are very active about claiming territory. I wonder if this would change that or enhance it. <!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->In NS, welding mainly takes the form of welding other marines during combat, there's little downtime involved when you have to quickswitch out the welder between fades blinking in.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> This is a good point. I'd be interested to hear how you're thinking of addressing this.
Thanks a ton for the transcript, afratnikov! It's a big help for me and plenty of other people <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/biggrin-fix.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":D" border="0" alt="biggrin-fix.gif" />
<!--quoteo(post=1663428:date=Dec 10 2007, 05:36 AM:name=eoy)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(eoy @ Dec 10 2007, 05:36 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1663428"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->However much I love the idea of dynamic gameplay, there's a few...
<b>Problems:</b>
You and your fellow marine are in a room with a resource node and 3 entrances. You quickly weld two of the entrances shut, place one of the marines aiming at the only remaining entrance (the one that's the natural route for marines) and no skulks have a chance of killing them.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
If the marines have enough time to weld two entrances shut, (especially by a node,) the aliens obviously need to pick up their game. In this situation it'd be the aliens fault.
<!--quoteo(post=1663428:date=Dec 10 2007, 05:36 AM:name=eoy)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(eoy @ Dec 10 2007, 05:36 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1663428"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Fades will get totaly anihilated by the fact that they can never be certain about any secure escaperoutes.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Once agian, if Fades get anihilated by not knowing the terrain they are fighting on, again... alien's fault. This also is the same with marines controling environment and single marines locking down areas.
<!--quoteo(post=1663428:date=Dec 10 2007, 05:36 AM:name=eoy)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(eoy @ Dec 10 2007, 05:36 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1663428"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Monotone biting while watching a progressbar is boring.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
They adressed this problem specifically in the podcast. Charlie said no progress bar.
<!--quoteo(post=1663428:date=Dec 10 2007, 05:36 AM:name=eoy)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(eoy @ Dec 10 2007, 05:36 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1663428"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->The game is about advancing and claiming new grounds, not locking yourself in.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
So chamber and mine spamming are ok?
<!--quoteo(post=1663428:date=Dec 10 2007, 05:36 AM:name=eoy)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(eoy @ Dec 10 2007, 05:36 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1663428"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Aliens busting doors open make easy targets, just have a marine or two with a shotgun on the other side waiting, and the aliens are toast.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
That's what I'd want you to think, and while your team expects an onos to come out of the doorway and sit there with their shotguns, the minute the door opens... sits a lone skulk, chuckling as the onos charges in from the door you neglected to pay attention to cause it was so quite and peaceful and gores you in the ass.
<!--quoteo(post=1663428:date=Dec 10 2007, 05:36 AM:name=eoy)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(eoy @ Dec 10 2007, 05:36 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1663428"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Building up miniature bases with turrets is a lot more fun.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Uh huh... I'd rather set up something and leave it there knowing skulks won't be able to do anything about it.
<!--quoteo(post=1663428:date=Dec 10 2007, 05:36 AM:name=eoy)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(eoy @ Dec 10 2007, 05:36 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1663428"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Welding should involve a severe choice of the entire marine team (or commander), and not be the default thing to do.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
It's one of the many things to do, you don't even know the rest of what's available yet. If these are the things they're reveiling before they even have a fully playable build available, you can you be the judge of what is and isn't default?
Make welded doors easily breakable by Gorges, Fades and Onoses, especially Gorges and Onoses. How would you try to destroy a welded door yourself with your bere teeth? It just doesn't make any sense that you can bite a door open, while it does that you can bilebomb, charge, gore and so on.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
It should take nearly as long for aliens to break down the doors. This is balance. The only lifeform that should take less time is an onos, and Fades are a combat lifeform. The claws look made to tear through skin and break bone, not bash down metal.
<!--quoteo(post=1663428:date=Dec 10 2007, 05:36 AM:name=eoy)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(eoy @ Dec 10 2007, 05:36 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1663428"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Make welding impossible until midgame, basicly require the commander to upgrade until at least 10 minutes into the game before welding can be accessed. This would allow aliens to get some stronger lifeforms to open the weldings.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
If a gorge can open the doors, why would you need a stronger lifeform?
<!--quoteo(post=1663428:date=Dec 10 2007, 05:36 AM:name=eoy)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(eoy @ Dec 10 2007, 05:36 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1663428"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->More doors add a lot more claustrofobic feeling to the game, which I think has been missing for a long time. There has to be that little excitement of "what's waiting behind the door", the unknown always excites.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
This is right, and a marine team welding themselves (or aliens,) into an area would make it just that much more claustrophobic. Imagine what would happen if this was only a diversion...
Before you start complaining about features that haven't been implimented yet, and haven't even been fully discussed by the dev team (as reveiled by Charlie and Max's discussion in the podcast,) why not wait and see what they come up with? NS2 is going to be different, but keep the same core ideas. Charlie has listed 2-3 times what the team thinks the key components are to the game, and I doubt it's going to change much... just be implimented in a different, BALANCED way.
I really like the weld bot idea. As a scout or welder for building and such but not 100% sure about for personal use... But thats just me.
But besides welding doors, I suggest how about lighting. In a combat map, not 100% sure which one, you have to weld the lights on for a certain room. But what if that is implemented in all the rooms in NS2? The map is pretty much all lit up at the beginning (some rooms are default off), but aliens can "bash" the controls to turn off the lights and rines have to weld the controls to turn them back on. Again, just a thought but thought it would add to the gameplay strategy a bit.
Welding - like the ideas being batted about. But bat some more about. Certainly make it simple to do and understand (aha that door is welded...that's why it will not open)
Weldbot - great idea to implement simply because even if welding disappears from NS A commander controlled entity would be excellent for leading marines down a complex path.
Stats - excellent idea reward people for the 'boring' activities like building, gnashing buildings etc.
I love dynamic infestation and welding but realize that these things could become predictable on certain maps. (ie these 2 doors get welded...the aliens infest these two rooms)
Think longer and harder on creating an event....the door being welded and bursting open is close but not quite Valve created an event in TF2 with the 3 second invulnerability between the healer and his...healee? they have even said so in interviews...they wanted to create an event similar to when an event occurs in single-player.
Think of something that makes everyone want to say CHARGE!
marines - a timed flame thrower upgrade (this could be the only time flame throwers appeared) aliens - a skulk-bot rush
sorry for such a long post. keep up the good work ;-)
Comments
but you might as well have it coded intot he gmae so the mapper doesn't have to do any work other than placing the door <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/smile-fix.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":)" border="0" alt="smile-fix.gif" />
i'd like to think of ns2 maps as "shells" . Kind of like an empty ns1 map, no doors, res towers, just a plain empty level. Then its up to the players to decide how they want to change the level to influence a particular outcome.
Why not have it so the commander can build doors in preselected areas?
not at all, but i'd prefer a hovaring skorpion <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/biggrin-fix.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":D" border="0" alt="biggrin-fix.gif" /> lol 4 manipulator arms and a welding stinger <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/biggrin-fix.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":D" border="0" alt="biggrin-fix.gif" />
I'm wondering, to what extent are you planning to take advantage of HL2 physics in NS2?
- Will there be a lot of "junk"-objects lying around levels?
- Will throwing these objects be part of the game? (fades throwing objects just like the gravity gun)
- Will using these objects be part of the game? (like the welding proposed here)
- will there be produced objects that would be used using physics? (Bile bombs that could bounce off walls or be shot down)
I know, discussions on this go way back, even before HL2 came out, but I haven't heard anything about this recently. Please, point me in the right direction where i could find more info on physics use in NS2.
Welding will obviously be a big part of the dynamic environment. I see a lot of great possibilities, primarily because it requires the player to be good beyond just aiming/shooting well. When i thought about welding i imagined something like what Garo suggested. There would weldable objects that would respond to welding and aliens: doors that can be locked shut or broken, lights that can be repaired or cut off, moving platforms, water pumps, and other stuff - weldable objects that mappers can use in their map designs. I think that using objects lying around the map and welding them together might be cool at first, but in the long-run it could become extremely messy.
For those not aware of them, here are the pillar stones of NS2. This is basically a quote of Charlie from 9th Podcast starting at 13:20:
"Cause the core, the big kind of 4 pillars for NS2 are
1) the dynamic infestation, or should I say “dynamic environments†- it’s not just infestation. We hope that it’s going to be much more than that, which includes the new welding system and anything else we can do to make the environments really - maybe not living and breathing - but definitely reactive and changing during the course of the game.
2) And the second pillar would be the commander mode. Obviously it’s a distinctive feature for NS. Other people might do it, but they don’t really go the distance quite as far as we do. So that’s the second one.
3) Totally different sides that’s a difference for us, too, which obviously you saw in NS. We’re going to see it even more in NS2.
4) And then the whole modding and user extensibility component, which for us is largely about Dacoda and the fact that we’re doing everything in script and setting things up building the infrastructure for players to really make their own game out of this or mod NS2 and tweak things the way they want.
There’s more than that. Those are the pillar stones, though.
5?) ...Is the Scorpion that hovers - is he pillar five?"
Also once the weld bot dies it should drop a welder that the humans can use.
I have an idea!
Why not have a portable sentry that can follow a marine that shoots maybe pistol rounds at slow rates?
But it only has little health say 20 or 40?
It feeds off the marines suit absorbing the marines armor maybe until it runs out which causes the sentry to deactivate until someone else powers it up?
and im still pro door welding. it could be balanced and made acessable.
In ns1 everyone recognises weld spots because they are uniform
So in ns 2 weldable doors could be uniform or have 2 or 3 visual variations. but basically if the doors that could be welded had a common appearance players would associate welding with them.
Its been mentioned that players could weld doors shut and screw the rest of their team. well it could be realyy quick for other players to deweld doors, and the comm could select doors and remove teh welding on them in a sec or 2.
Its also been mentioned that aliens cud get very miffed having to munch doors continually. well maybe the function of door welding has to be matched to a tactical purpose. rather than welding a door down for a permanent defence it could be temporay. for situations like the following. some of ur team mates get munched by an onos only a couple of corridors away from u. and u know ur position is important, impending alien attack. So u weld the door as the aliens nail it towards u.
However as soon as welding is done the weld starts to degrade. plus any aliens attacking it it will get broken thru but itl slow em down enuth for reenforcements to arrive. If welded doors have their welding degrade over a constant rate until the welding colapses it will mean aliens wont be cursed with havig to batter doors down all the time, unless all the rines have got nothing better to do than weld constantly. The quality of the weld could be a factor in its strength. and the time it takes to weld, the time to destory and the time to degrade could all be playtested out
The main thing I disagree with here is that NS has lots of boring activities. I agree that munching a RT can be tedious, but I think welding and building are high points of the game. These non-combat activities are there for the express purpose of having "down time". You can't have "up" time with out it! It also lets you catch your breath and recharge your batteries a bit.
Most games dont give the option of downtimes. They also tend to not give the chance of real 'uptimes' like you find in NS; try to find me a single game of CS that can ever compare to a perfectly balanced 2nd hive siege battle. No chance.
The main thing I disagree with here is that NS has lots of boring activities. I agree that munching a RT can be tedious, but I think welding and building are high points of the game. These non-combat activities are there for the express purpose of having "down time". You can't have "up" time with out it! It also lets you catch your breath and recharge your batteries a bit.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
NS does have ups and downs, and certainly, you have a valid point that the boring activities allow a breather from all the action. Just make sure to not take the boring activities to the next level, as I would be concerned about losing people who enjoy the fast-paced action of NS.
Too much welding would cause boredom just as too much building would do. On the other hand, if you tilt the balance on the other side, some might term it as too much action (but not I. There is no such thing as too much action <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/tounge.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":p" border="0" alt="tounge.gif" />. The faster, less boring games are always better, imho. But others might disagree :x).
I guess there's a ying/yang sorta thing going on. A little bit of action for every boring activity, and vice versa. Just don't put too much emphasis on the boring/slow side, please. Keep it fast paced and moving.
Boxing would be a great analogy here. Boxing is fast, yet slow. Precise, yet messy. Powerful, yet weak for it takes hundreds of punches to win a fight. Hopefully NS2 will resemble this, and minimize the time in between rounds (slow time of standing still building or welding).
The main thing I disagree with here is that NS has lots of boring activities. I agree that munching a RT can be tedious, but I think welding and building are high points of the game. These non-combat activities are there for the express purpose of having "down time". You can't have "up" time with out it! It also lets you catch your breath and recharge your batteries a bit.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
In NS, welding mainly takes the form of welding other marines during combat, there's little downtime involved when you have to quickswitch out the welder between fades blinking in. Building is fine downtime, its pretty critical actually because otherwise marines would have a massive advantage when trying to siege. The boring activities people are talking about are things like building base the first 30 seconds of the game, skulks munching on RTs, etc. It's a challenge to convince people to attack RTs when they know marines are nearby or build sieges with skulks flying into the room, but there's only so much game mechanics can do to reinforce that behavior. I would say the highpoint involved is actually getting people to do it, not that the activity is fun itself.
2. If I had the ability to build barriers out of physics objects, I would never ever consider the remotest possibility of being bored in an NS game <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/smile-fix.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":)" border="0" alt="smile-fix.gif" />
A member TMC put a working ns marine bots at kck he calls Guard dogs . And there kinda kool to play with when bored <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/marine.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid="::marine::" border="0" alt="marine.gif" />
Here's a quote from a post : Last time I tried, rcbots it would crash the server everytime, unless I turned off amxmodx. I did write a crude marine bot program that is running on the #2 server. There is also a plugin running to control them.
((These bots are dumb as a box of rocks but can be useful for learning to use the comm chair.
Some of what they can do: Shoot the aliens with deadly accuracy,Build structures, Weld structures, Weld teammates, Use phasegates,Call for health & ammo,Follow waypoint that are in their line of sight,Follow other teammates < Like a leach lol
Some of what they can't do: Find their own way around the map,Use the armory for health and armor, Weld weldpoints (working on the math), Use buttons, Use the command chair .))
What if there are people that prefer to work at keeping the enemy on their feet because they never know when an area will be no longer available to them or the enemy may burst out of at any moment?
Do you really want to exclude those players from your game, or do you think that it would be key to involve those players in achieving victory?
I think Carlie is on the right track as far as including everyone in a game. So you may not be the best on the team at fragging, why not make sure the enemy has to keep on their feet and at the same time, help your team? Thanks for keeping in mind that NS2 shouldn't be another DM fragfest clone.
I want to second this frame of mind. Welding as a counter to DI is a very interesting idea and should, I think, be the prime consideration when determining how welding works. The two ought to be conceived/developed/balanced in tandem.
weld bot sounds kool..
any chance that the aliens will be able to 'weld' maybe acid on doors/vents??
<b>Problems:</b>
You and your fellow marine are in a room with a resource node and 3 entrances. You quickly weld two of the entrances shut, place one of the marines aiming at the only remaining entrance (the one that's the natural route for marines) and no skulks have a chance of killing them.
Fades will get totaly anihilated by the fact that they can never be certain about any secure escaperoutes.
With the use of welding, marines can control their environment to make it immensely hard for aliens to get an element of surprise.
Locked doors are never fun in any game.
A stupid marine can lock down every single area of the map.
Monotone biting while watching a progressbar is boring.
The game is about advancing and claiming new grounds, not locking yourself in.
Aliens busting doors open make easy targets, just have a marine or two with a shotgun on the other side waiting, and the aliens are toast.
Building up miniature bases with turrets is a lot more fun.
<u>Using laser mines in doorways are a lot more fun.</u>
Welding should involve a severe choice of the entire marine team (or commander), and not be the default thing to do.
<b>Ideas</b>
Make welding require two players full attention, so that they make easy targets while welding, add an easily distinguishable sound so aliens know there's easy kills behind the corner. This way it won't get overused, and you don't give a single marine too much power over his surroundings.
Make welded doors easily breakable by Gorges, Fades and Onoses, especially Gorges and Onoses. How would you try to destroy a welded door yourself with your bere teeth? It just doesn't make any sense that you can bite a door open, while it does that you can bilebomb, charge, gore and so on.
Make welding impossible until midgame, basicly require the commander to upgrade until at least 10 minutes into the game before welding can be accessed. This would allow aliens to get some stronger lifeforms to open the weldings.
More doors add a lot more claustrofobic feeling to the game, which I think has been missing for a long time. There has to be that little excitement of "what's waiting behind the door", the unknown always excites.
Make the use of minibases more accessable. It's a lot more interesting to have the marine base spread out over the map, than just a central hub somewhere far away that players never really see or interact with. It was the whole minibase & relocating, and mineing doorways shut (back in the days when they had a red beam) that got me into the game in the first place.
edit: fixed spelling
Locked doors are never fun in any game.
The game is about advancing and claiming new grounds, not locking yourself in.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I think these are all pretty important points. I hope DI would block welding of doors, or at least make it very time consuming. Also, fades could have the a limited ability to go through these doors? The fade is a very offensive unit currently and this style of welding would take away from that.
Locked doors are not fun, but only when you can't get through them at all. As long as a skulk could bash it down I think the mechanic is able to be balanced.
The last bit it pretty important too. You're making marines the "defensive" team. In NS both teams are very active about claiming territory. I wonder if this would change that or enhance it.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->In NS, welding mainly takes the form of welding other marines during combat, there's little downtime involved when you have to quickswitch out the welder between fades blinking in.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
This is a good point. I'd be interested to hear how you're thinking of addressing this.
<b>Problems:</b>
You and your fellow marine are in a room with a resource node and 3 entrances. You quickly weld two of the entrances shut, place one of the marines aiming at the only remaining entrance (the one that's the natural route for marines) and no skulks have a chance of killing them.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
If the marines have enough time to weld two entrances shut, (especially by a node,) the aliens obviously need to pick up their game. In this situation it'd be the aliens fault.
<!--quoteo(post=1663428:date=Dec 10 2007, 05:36 AM:name=eoy)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(eoy @ Dec 10 2007, 05:36 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1663428"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Fades will get totaly anihilated by the fact that they can never be certain about any secure escaperoutes.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Once agian, if Fades get anihilated by not knowing the terrain they are fighting on, again... alien's fault. This also is the same with marines controling environment and single marines locking down areas.
<!--quoteo(post=1663428:date=Dec 10 2007, 05:36 AM:name=eoy)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(eoy @ Dec 10 2007, 05:36 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1663428"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Monotone biting while watching a progressbar is boring.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
They adressed this problem specifically in the podcast. Charlie said no progress bar.
<!--quoteo(post=1663428:date=Dec 10 2007, 05:36 AM:name=eoy)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(eoy @ Dec 10 2007, 05:36 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1663428"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->The game is about advancing and claiming new grounds, not locking yourself in.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
So chamber and mine spamming are ok?
<!--quoteo(post=1663428:date=Dec 10 2007, 05:36 AM:name=eoy)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(eoy @ Dec 10 2007, 05:36 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1663428"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Aliens busting doors open make easy targets, just have a marine or two with a shotgun on the other side waiting, and the aliens are toast.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
That's what I'd want you to think, and while your team expects an onos to come out of the doorway and sit there with their shotguns, the minute the door opens... sits a lone skulk, chuckling as the onos charges in from the door you neglected to pay attention to cause it was so quite and peaceful and gores you in the ass.
<!--quoteo(post=1663428:date=Dec 10 2007, 05:36 AM:name=eoy)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(eoy @ Dec 10 2007, 05:36 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1663428"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Building up miniature bases with turrets is a lot more fun.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Uh huh... I'd rather set up something and leave it there knowing skulks won't be able to do anything about it.
<!--quoteo(post=1663428:date=Dec 10 2007, 05:36 AM:name=eoy)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(eoy @ Dec 10 2007, 05:36 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1663428"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Welding should involve a severe choice of the entire marine team (or commander), and not be the default thing to do.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
It's one of the many things to do, you don't even know the rest of what's available yet. If these are the things they're reveiling before they even have a fully playable build available, you can you be the judge of what is and isn't default?
<!--quoteo(post=1663428:date=Dec 10 2007, 05:36 AM:name=eoy)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(eoy @ Dec 10 2007, 05:36 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1663428"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec--><b>Ideas</b>
Make welded doors easily breakable by Gorges, Fades and Onoses, especially Gorges and Onoses. How would you try to destroy a welded door yourself with your bere teeth? It just doesn't make any sense that you can bite a door open, while it does that you can bilebomb, charge, gore and so on.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
It should take nearly as long for aliens to break down the doors. This is balance. The only lifeform that should take less time is an onos, and Fades are a combat lifeform. The claws look made to tear through skin and break bone, not bash down metal.
<!--quoteo(post=1663428:date=Dec 10 2007, 05:36 AM:name=eoy)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(eoy @ Dec 10 2007, 05:36 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1663428"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Make welding impossible until midgame, basicly require the commander to upgrade until at least 10 minutes into the game before welding can be accessed. This would allow aliens to get some stronger lifeforms to open the weldings.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
If a gorge can open the doors, why would you need a stronger lifeform?
<!--quoteo(post=1663428:date=Dec 10 2007, 05:36 AM:name=eoy)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(eoy @ Dec 10 2007, 05:36 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1663428"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->More doors add a lot more claustrofobic feeling to the game, which I think has been missing for a long time. There has to be that little excitement of "what's waiting behind the door", the unknown always excites.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
This is right, and a marine team welding themselves (or aliens,) into an area would make it just that much more claustrophobic. Imagine what would happen if this was only a diversion...
Before you start complaining about features that haven't been implimented yet, and haven't even been fully discussed by the dev team (as reveiled by Charlie and Max's discussion in the podcast,) why not wait and see what they come up with? NS2 is going to be different, but keep the same core ideas. Charlie has listed 2-3 times what the team thinks the key components are to the game, and I doubt it's going to change much... just be implimented in a different, BALANCED way.
But besides welding doors, I suggest how about lighting. In a combat map, not 100% sure which one, you have to weld the lights on for a certain room. But what if that is implemented in all the rooms in NS2? The map is pretty much all lit up at the beginning (some rooms are default off), but aliens can "bash" the controls to turn off the lights and rines have to weld the controls to turn them back on. Again, just a thought but thought it would add to the gameplay strategy a bit.
Stabby King out....
i also sign for a nano(HA)suit!
But bat some more about.
Certainly make it simple to do and understand (aha that door is welded...that's why it will not open)
Weldbot - great idea to implement simply because even if welding disappears from NS
A commander controlled entity would be excellent for leading marines down a complex path.
Stats - excellent idea reward people for the 'boring' activities like building, gnashing buildings etc.
I love dynamic infestation and welding but realize that these things could become predictable on certain maps.
(ie these 2 doors get welded...the aliens infest these two rooms)
Think longer and harder on creating an event....the door being welded and bursting open is close but not quite
Valve created an event in TF2 with the 3 second invulnerability between the healer and his...healee?
they have even said so in interviews...they wanted to create an event similar to when an event occurs in single-player.
Think of something that makes everyone want to say CHARGE!
marines - a timed flame thrower upgrade (this could be the only time flame throwers appeared)
aliens - a skulk-bot rush
sorry for such a long post.
keep up the good work ;-)
For me, atmosphere/immersion takes precedence over gameplay. Welding doors closed is a huge immersion factor for me.
I'm not saying gameplay is not important, but you should be able to lock down certain doors as Marines, it would just be so much fun.