Fog and Miasma

QuaunautQuaunaut The longest seven days in history...Members, Constellation, Reinforced - Shadow Join Date: 2003-03-21 Member: 14759Posts: 7,216 Advanced user
So, I started with 1.04. As time went on, less and less fog was used on levels- that wonderful particle engine Charlie made basically went to being used on Phase Gates and...oh, right.

So, I'm wondering, is fog going to be making a comeback for NS2?
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  • Steve0Steve0 Members Join Date: 2007-07-17 Member: 61615Posts: 80
    QUOTE(Quaunaut @ Oct 8 2007, 01:28 AM) »
    So, I started with 1.04. As time went on, less and less fog was used on levels- that wonderful particle engine Charlie made basically went to being used on Phase Gates and...oh, right.

    So, I'm wondering, is fog going to be making a comeback for NS2?


    Thats down to the mapper tounge.gif
  • Wyattx3Wyattx3 Members Join Date: 2003-07-23 Member: 18386Posts: 355 Advanced user
    It did seem that more and more maps became less and less... atmospheric I guess, with an exception of ns_bast, although I dont think Feedwater has that drip noise in it anymore does it?

    I hope theres more steam/fog/smoke and a bigger range of lighting in maps.
  • QuaunautQuaunaut The longest seven days in history... Members, Constellation, Reinforced - Shadow Join Date: 2003-03-21 Member: 14759Posts: 7,216 Advanced user
    QUOTE(Steve0 @ Oct 7 2007, 05:32 PM) »
    Thats down to the mapper tounge.gif


    It was, but it seemed to be something the entirety of the release maps did as time went on, which seems like a change in map focus.
    image
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  • NEX9NEX9 Members Join Date: 2005-03-08 Member: 44299Posts: 1,642
    yeah this is sad.
    Stop by see some of my latest works in maya, ill even evently host my WIP's and old old works.
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  • schkorpioschkorpio I can mspaint Members Join Date: 2003-05-23 Member: 16635Posts: 3,543 Fully active user
    its true, the maps became more and more "fair" as time went on, but also less fun - particles, sounds, certain lighting, and even most of the weld points are now gone.
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  • AlignAlign Remain Calm Forum Moderators, Constellation Join Date: 2002-11-02 Member: 5216Posts: 8,206 mod
    I remember when I was still trying to map for NS. I think it was smoke.spr that was a magic "make my map atmospheric" tool.
  • c0kec0ke Members Join Date: 2004-07-02 Member: 29676Posts: 417 Advanced user
    y, maps became more and more sterile by time. just have a look @ lucid.

    but seems like thats what the ppl want
    -c0keh
  • CanadianWolverineCanadianWolverine Members Join Date: 2003-02-07 Member: 13249Posts: 1,010 Fully active user
    QUOTE(c0ke @ Oct 8 2007, 12:37 PM) »
    but seems like thats what the ppl want


    I guess I am not "people" as that was certainly not something I wanted. One of the reasons I loved coming across new maps in the new versions, looking out at the windows into space added alot of atmosphere for me.

    I miss the fog and stuff, I hope it makes a come back.
  • moultanomoultano Creator of ns_shiva. Members, NS1 Playtester, Contributor, Constellation, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, Reinforced - Shadow, WC 2013 - Gold, NS2 Community Developer, Pistachionauts Join Date: 2002-12-14 Member: 10806Posts: 4,219 Advanced user
    The reason for this was that the hl1 engine performed poorly with maps that contained many entities. To improve server performance mappers had to remove entities from their maps, and they chose to cut the entities that they thought would be least noticed. This should not be a problem for ns2.
  • AhnteisAhnteis teh Bob Members, NS1 Playtester, Constellation Join Date: 2002-10-02 Member: 1405Posts: 2,291 mod
    As long as we don't get stuck with background noises at insanely loud volume, I'll be perfectly happy with smoke / dripping / etc.
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  • TestosteronTestosteron Members, Constellation Join Date: 2006-12-29 Member: 59299Posts: 82
    For competitive play in clan wars or leagues I prefer plain/straight maps like vail or lucid but on publics I would like to see more atmospheric maps and wouldnt mind if they were unfair (eg in favor of one side) as long as they are fun playing.
  • GiGaBiTeGiGaBiTe Members Join Date: 2003-10-07 Member: 21489Posts: 1,119 Advanced user
    QUOTE(Testosteron @ Oct 11 2007, 03:52 AM) »
    For competitive play in clan wars or leagues I prefer plain/straight maps like vail or lucid but on publics I would like to see more atmospheric maps and wouldnt mind if they were unfair (eg in favor of one side) as long as they are fun playing.


    That's basically why most of the maps these days are dumbed down. When CAL started a league for NS, they started moaning about "LULZ SERVAR R LAGGEH, FIX TEH PROBLEM!" and the quality / atmosphere of maps slowly declined. What irks me is that after all of that whining and moaning and the issues solved, they dump NS like yesterdays garbage and pretend as if it never existed.

    NS would have been far better off if CAL never came into the NS scene tbh.

    Too bad that the old versions of bast, nancy, hera, eclipse and nothing have the onos hull issue else I'd probably replace the new with the old in an instant.
    QUOTE (unknown)
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    Last time we did this an onos just put its fat **** inside the hole and lerks just farted a new athmosphere.
    It looked so gross that we decided to never ever do this again.


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  • DominingDomining Members Join Date: 2007-09-27 Member: 62452Posts: 480
    QUOTE(GiGaBiTe @ Oct 25 2007, 05:25 AM) »
    "LULZ SERVAR R LAGGEH, FIX TEH PROBLEM!"

    Because competitive players obviously can't form coherent sentences, right?

    You can go ahead and make your own game where you can't hit anything no matter how well you aim or which team you're on, but I wouldn't play it. You can also make a game where you can't see anything coming at you and the only thing you can do when you hear something is to stand around like an idiot and spray around you in a spherical pattern. - Unfortunately you'll only have succeeded at making a game entirely consisting of luck and nothing else, the only way to get better at that game is with some awesome gamma ramps which bad players wouldn't know how to do. This would effectively cause further separation between skill(lol).

    Oh of course you'd make the alien part fun because marines would never actually kill you.
  • locallyunscenelocallyunscene Feeder of Trolls Members, Constellation Join Date: 2002-12-25 Member: 11528Posts: 4,022 Fully active user
    QUOTE(GiGaBiTe @ Oct 25 2007, 05:25 AM) »
    That's basically why most of the maps these days are dumbed down. When CAL started a league for NS, they started moaning about "LULZ SERVAR R LAGGEH, FIX TEH PROBLEM!" and the quality / atmosphere of maps slowly declined. What irks me is that after all of that whining and moaning and the issues solved, they dump NS like yesterdays garbage and pretend as if it never existed.

    NS would have been far better off if CAL never came into the NS scene tbh.

    Too bad that the old versions of bast, nancy, hera, eclipse and nothing have the onos hull issue else I'd probably replace the new with the old in an instant.

    NS wouldn't be better without CAL/ANSL ..., but it would be more atmospheric.
    QUOTE(Domining @ Oct 25 2007, 06:23 AM) »
    Because competitive players obviously can't form coherent sentences, right?

    You can go ahead and make your own game where you can't hit anything no matter how well you aim or which team you're on, but I wouldn't play it. You can also make a game where you can't see anything coming at you and the only thing you can do when you hear something is to stand around like an idiot and spray around you in a spherical pattern. - Unfortunately you'll only have succeeded at making a game entirely consisting of luck and nothing else, the only way to get better at that game is with some awesome gamma ramps which bad players wouldn't know how to do. This would effectively cause further separation between skill(lol).

    Oh of course you'd make the alien part fun because marines would never actually kill you.

    Please don't respond to a troll by trolling yourself. This is why competitive payers get a bad rap sometimes. He's talking about an atmospheric element and you attack his skill(read: the two are not related, and you make an unfounded assumption regardless). I sincerely doubt you've even played competitive so please keep your personal attacks to yourself.

    QUOTE (Flayra @ Mar 28 2007, 09:21 PM) »
    It's not an easy balance to achieve, but we do want to make a game that will be both the best competitive game since Starcraft and also one that many people can enjoy casually without being in a clan or an experienced or knowledgeable NS player. That's the goal at least!


    - NS in game name - tilde - My Steam Id Page - .
  • DominingDomining Members Join Date: 2007-09-27 Member: 62452Posts: 480
    QUOTE(locallyunscene @ Oct 25 2007, 12:19 PM) »
    He's talking about an atmospheric element and you attack his skill

    No I didn't.
  • locallyunscenelocallyunscene Feeder of Trolls Members, Constellation Join Date: 2002-12-25 Member: 11528Posts: 4,022 Fully active user
    QUOTE(Domining @ Oct 25 2007, 01:33 PM) »
    No I didn't.

    That's true you didn't. You just compared having atmospheric effects to spraying randomly in a circle.
    Sorry I called you a troll for skill bashing; I was wrong. You're simply trolling with gross over generalizations.
    However, I'm not sure why you mention skill at all.
    QUOTE (Flayra @ Mar 28 2007, 09:21 PM) »
    It's not an easy balance to achieve, but we do want to make a game that will be both the best competitive game since Starcraft and also one that many people can enjoy casually without being in a clan or an experienced or knowledgeable NS player. That's the goal at least!


    - NS in game name - tilde - My Steam Id Page - .
  • DominingDomining Members Join Date: 2007-09-27 Member: 62452Posts: 480
    edited October 2007
    QUOTE(locallyunscene @ Oct 25 2007, 03:15 PM) »
    atmospheric effects

    Oh, so you mean to tell me that "NOT BEING ABLE TO SEE" is an atmospheric effect?

    Edit: I guess it is, but how can you aim when you can't see? Doesn't not being able to 'aim' take away skill from the game? No?
  • StixNStonzStixNStonz Members, Reinforced - Shadow Join Date: 2006-11-06 Member: 58439Posts: 1,185 Fully active user
    Atmospheric effects dont make you unable to see. Those are walls.
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  • Kouji_SanKouji_San Sr. Hινε Uρкεερεг - EUPT Deputy The NetherlandsMembers, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue Join Date: 2003-05-13 Member: 16271Posts: 15,782 Advanced user
    edited October 2007
    QUOTE(StixNStonz @ Oct 26 2007, 02:55 AM) »
    Atmospheric effects dont make you unable to see. Those are walls.

    Depends on what kind of atmopheric effect it is, I mean acid mist could make ya blind J/K

    ----
    I miss the atmosphere from 1.04 sound/light&darness play/particle effects/foggy areas/DOORS. 1.04 maps are incompatible with the current NS, due to clipping problems and changes in the fgd and entities working differently. So yeah, simply replacing the maps with older versions can't be done. And also shouldn't be done since they are quite unoptimised and buggy in some cases.

    However it is quite possible to create an atmospheric map, while staying within the engine limits. 1.04 was just of a over enthusiastic approach from mappers to put in a lot of stuff to make the map sexy without much regard to optimising or even staying within goldSRC guidlines biggrin-fix.gif


    Another thing I miss is the ability to actually build a defensive area and really lock down areas with turretfarms/oc+dc farms (yknow a RTS element that was at one time in this game? tounge.gif). But yeah, goldSRC didn't like that either. It did add a lot to the dynamic (player created) atmosphere though.

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  • DominingDomining Members Join Date: 2007-09-27 Member: 62452Posts: 480
    QUOTE(StixNStonz @ Oct 25 2007, 08:55 PM) »
    Atmospheric effects dont make you unable to see. Those are walls.

    I can easily see through walls, I can't see through sprites obstructing my view though.
  • locallyunscenelocallyunscene Feeder of Trolls Members, Constellation Join Date: 2002-12-25 Member: 11528Posts: 4,022 Fully active user
    QUOTE(Domining)
    I can easily see through walls, I can't see through sprites obstructing my view though.

    You shouldn't be able to see through walls. Turn it off. tounge.gif

    If you can't aim at something because it's partially obscured in fog that's your problem for going into an area of alien advantage. These kinds of things are tools for the mappers to use when balancing a map.

    If you don't like it that's your prerogative, however a large portion of the NS Community does like it. It adds depth to the game while also making it look better. No amount of Reductio ad Absurdium will change that.
    QUOTE (Flayra @ Mar 28 2007, 09:21 PM) »
    It's not an easy balance to achieve, but we do want to make a game that will be both the best competitive game since Starcraft and also one that many people can enjoy casually without being in a clan or an experienced or knowledgeable NS player. That's the goal at least!


    - NS in game name - tilde - My Steam Id Page - .
  • DominingDomining Members Join Date: 2007-09-27 Member: 62452Posts: 480
    QUOTE(locallyunscene @ Oct 26 2007, 02:15 PM) »
    You shouldn't be able to see through walls. Turn it off. tounge.gif

    But then I'd be terrible at this game.

    QUOTE
    If you can't aim at something because it's partially obscured in fog that's your problem for going into an area of alien advantage. These kinds of things are tools for the mappers to use when balancing a map.

    Oh so what you're saying is that marines are supposed to stay in marine start and not leave anywhere?

    QUOTE
    If you don't like it that's your prerogative, however a large portion of the NS Community does like it. It adds depth to the game while also making it look better. No amount of Reductio ad Absurdium will change that.

    Large portion? Way to pull statistics out of your butt crack.
  • PikminwarsPikminwars Members Join Date: 2006-11-07 Member: 58468Posts: 137
    How is anyone taking Domining seriously with that sexy avatar of his?
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  • digzdigz be still, maggot Members, NS1 Playtester, Forum Moderators, Constellation Join Date: 2002-05-07 Member: 588Posts: 872 mod
    Back on topic...

    I'm no expert on the source engine, but my understanding is that using fog correctly can actually save resources due to telling the engine not to render objects behind the fog. With the expectations of larger levels and open environments, wouldn't we see more use of fog to make maps more playable?
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  • LazyEyeLazyEye Members, NS1 Playtester Join Date: 2005-01-06 Member: 32959Posts: 137
    QUOTE(moultano @ Oct 8 2007, 02:31 PM) »
    The reason for this was that the hl1 engine performed poorly with maps that contained many entities. To improve server performance mappers had to remove entities from their maps, and they chose to cut the entities that they thought would be least noticed. This should not be a problem for ns2.



    ^ Everyone read this again.

    My guess is ns2 maps will have guidelines for perfomance as well but obviously the upgraded engine allows for more leeway. That said I'm not a fan of adding crates, fog, pitch darkness for the sake of "cover," if a room is well designed all that stuff isnt needed. Many of the current ns maps are good in this way. While a map should have its own theam adding useless props and effects useally ends of hindering gameplay and server performance.
  • AlignAlign Remain Calm Forum Moderators, Constellation Join Date: 2002-11-02 Member: 5216Posts: 8,206 mod
    QUOTE(digz @ Oct 28 2007, 06:37 AM) »
    Back on topic...

    I'm no expert on the source engine, but my understanding is that using fog correctly can actually save resources due to telling the engine not to render objects behind the fog. With the expectations of larger levels and open environments, wouldn't we see more use of fog to make maps more playable?

    Different kind of fog. The fog you're referring to is the kind that gets thicker as distances get larger, and since we never have such distances in NS maps (until now?), it's not needed, plus it just looks weird with actual fog inside a spaceship/station. It also doesn't require entities as such, just one global entity that sets the cutoff distance.
    Atmospheric fog is placed out like any other detail, and normally isn't impossible to see through.
  • urinalcakeurinalcake Can't work a sound card United StatesMembers Join Date: 2002-11-08 Member: 7799Posts: 653 Fully active user
    they are correct in saying the network problems and the fog and other effects.
    but we have an advantage this time, source sucks at particles, but the ep2 engine's particle engine is by far the best thing valve has put forth in years.
  • locallyunscenelocallyunscene Feeder of Trolls Members, Constellation Join Date: 2002-12-25 Member: 11528Posts: 4,022 Fully active user
    QUOTE(Domining @ Oct 26 2007, 05:53 PM) »
    <Joke>

    <Reductio ad Absurdium>

    <Ignores quoted portion of text>

    Sorry I don't have exact statistics on who cares about atmospheric gameplay exactly, but judging by the facts a) most of the people in this topic have posted in support of atmospheric effects, and b) NS is an atmospheric game thereby drawing players who like to play such games I feel justified in saying a large portion of the community wants NS2 to be atmospheric.
    QUOTE (Flayra @ Mar 28 2007, 09:21 PM) »
    It's not an easy balance to achieve, but we do want to make a game that will be both the best competitive game since Starcraft and also one that many people can enjoy casually without being in a clan or an experienced or knowledgeable NS player. That's the goal at least!


    - NS in game name - tilde - My Steam Id Page - .
  • killkrazykillkrazy Members Join Date: 2007-09-10 Member: 62238Posts: 202
    Unscene I'm sure you've been around long enough to know that Domining can't, or won't create a half credible post in regards to anything. Do forgive him, it's just a bi-product of natural-selection (gene mutation) that he got less brain cells than some of us wink-fix.gif

    On topic, I'm pro-atmospheric enhancement, and would love to see the return or addition of different types of fog, smoke, mist (in alien controlled areas), reduced lighting and other such things. These are abandoned, overrun space stations or colonies that are lost in the deep of space. It should be atmospheric, we are fighting for the survival of the human species!
  • DominingDomining Members Join Date: 2007-09-27 Member: 62452Posts: 480
    QUOTE(killkrazy @ Oct 29 2007, 08:13 PM) »
    Unscene I'm sure you've been around long enough

    Apparently, you haven't been around long enough to know anything about anything in particular.

    Hypothesis:
    Killkrazy is a newbie who is also 12 years old.

    Procedure:
    Troll newbie on internet forums and observe subtle traits.

    Observation:
    Newbie gets trolled on internet forums. Newbie substitutes Cs for Ks in his name. Newbie gets worked up about all points troller makes, no matter the content. Newbie doesn't have the logical need to make sense.

    Conclusion:
    Killkrazy is 12 year old newbie.

    I just won you your science fair. Make sure to copypasta the four parts correctly and explain to the judges thoroughly.


    QUOTE
    Sorry I don't have exact statistics on who cares about atmospheric gameplay exactly, but judging by the facts a) most of the people in this topic have posted in support of atmospheric effects, and b) NS is an atmospheric game thereby drawing players who like to play such games I feel justified in saying a large portion of the community wants NS2 to be atmospheric.

    a) Oh okay, I see what demographic you're aiming for.
    b) NS is an competitive game thereby drawing competitive players who like to play such games I feel justified in saying a large portion of the community wants NS2 to be competitive.

    Once again, it all depends on what you mean by atmospheric. I'm only against using darkness in NS2 for the atmosphere, I'm for the ambient noises (as long as they aren't loud at all) and blood splatters and computer monitors and all things like that.

    We should really split this discussion into two threads, one about the level of darkness and the other about ambiance.
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