Babblers in NS2
Angelusz
Harmonic entropist Join Date: 2003-07-10 Member: 18072Members, Forum Moderators, Constellation, NS2 Playtester
Harmonic entropist Join Date: 2003-07-10 Member: 18072Members, Forum Moderators, Constellation, NS2 Playtester
<div class="IPBDescription">Return of an old favourite, missed by many.</div>I have searched the forum to find out whether or not somone has posted this suggestion before; I had already decided to suggest this the moment I heard that NS2 would be developed. Over the years that NS1 exists, many things have changed; nearly all were for the better, yet some of the most loved features got lost in the process.
<!--coloro:#A0522D--><span style="color:#A0522D"><!--/coloro-->If you know what babblers are, continue to the next paragraph.<!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc-->
The babblers, for those that weren't around for the earlier versions; or those that just haven't heard of them before, I'll describe what they were like in NS 1.xx.
Babblers were Computer-controlled, skulk-looking aliens, spawned by the gorge. It was the gorge's 3-hive ability. Upon spawning the babblers would start jumping around randomly, trying to find marines to chomp at, once found they'd jump near it and start biting. They had little HP and weren't all that intelligent, but could be a great tool for the gorge to survive some of the harder situations. Once spawned, they remained for a set amount of time, or until they died; the damage was fairly low, I believe around 20 per bite, but it's been a while, so I'm not sure. Main problem was that they got stuck or bugged a lot, the HL1 engine just didn't have proper support for aliens like that.
The suggestion I would like to add for NS2 is similar to what Babblers used to be. Some main features to start with:
<!--coloro:#4169E1--><span style="color:#4169E1"><!--/coloro-->- Low HP (around 30% of a normal skulk)
- Low Damage (also around 30%)
- One unit can spawn more than one, say max. 4. If 4 are up and the ability is used, the oldest disappears.
- The ability can not be obtained easily (e.g. 3 hives required)
- One spawn should take around 50% of spawner's energy
- When no enemies are nearby, the spawns should follow the spawner around the map
- Duration of one spawn should be around 20~30 seconds.
- The ability should belong to a class that can not defend itself easily, such as the current Gorge.
* An NS2-related suggestion would be to only enable this ability when (dynamic) infestation is nearby (lore-wise bacteria clumping together to form the spawned lifeform, which fall apart after the set amount of time), this would also have a nice defending role in terms of gameplay. (not to mention the cool graphics)<!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc-->
Naturally, the HL2 engine and AI allows for far more sophisticated AI-controlled units. Perhaps you could even create a system to give the spawns orders; where you could make them a bit weaker, but last longer. The possible variations are countless. Also; they shouldn't look like skulks, in my opinion (also keeping in mind the lore), they should look very simple, just a body, paws and mouth. Creating them as bipedal would also be a nice variation. (Though don't make them look like chicken <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/tounge.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":p" border="0" alt="tounge.gif" /> ) Finally, we could preserve the lifeforms' name; "Babblers", but something else, sounding more... serious would be nice as well. Just an idea: "Bacta" (Bacteria!)
Now I've done my suggestion, I would like feedback, preferably lots of it, but on-topic. Most of all, support! Help me get the loved ones back into the game!
<!--coloro:#A0522D--><span style="color:#A0522D"><!--/coloro-->If you know what babblers are, continue to the next paragraph.<!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc-->
The babblers, for those that weren't around for the earlier versions; or those that just haven't heard of them before, I'll describe what they were like in NS 1.xx.
Babblers were Computer-controlled, skulk-looking aliens, spawned by the gorge. It was the gorge's 3-hive ability. Upon spawning the babblers would start jumping around randomly, trying to find marines to chomp at, once found they'd jump near it and start biting. They had little HP and weren't all that intelligent, but could be a great tool for the gorge to survive some of the harder situations. Once spawned, they remained for a set amount of time, or until they died; the damage was fairly low, I believe around 20 per bite, but it's been a while, so I'm not sure. Main problem was that they got stuck or bugged a lot, the HL1 engine just didn't have proper support for aliens like that.
The suggestion I would like to add for NS2 is similar to what Babblers used to be. Some main features to start with:
<!--coloro:#4169E1--><span style="color:#4169E1"><!--/coloro-->- Low HP (around 30% of a normal skulk)
- Low Damage (also around 30%)
- One unit can spawn more than one, say max. 4. If 4 are up and the ability is used, the oldest disappears.
- The ability can not be obtained easily (e.g. 3 hives required)
- One spawn should take around 50% of spawner's energy
- When no enemies are nearby, the spawns should follow the spawner around the map
- Duration of one spawn should be around 20~30 seconds.
- The ability should belong to a class that can not defend itself easily, such as the current Gorge.
* An NS2-related suggestion would be to only enable this ability when (dynamic) infestation is nearby (lore-wise bacteria clumping together to form the spawned lifeform, which fall apart after the set amount of time), this would also have a nice defending role in terms of gameplay. (not to mention the cool graphics)<!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc-->
Naturally, the HL2 engine and AI allows for far more sophisticated AI-controlled units. Perhaps you could even create a system to give the spawns orders; where you could make them a bit weaker, but last longer. The possible variations are countless. Also; they shouldn't look like skulks, in my opinion (also keeping in mind the lore), they should look very simple, just a body, paws and mouth. Creating them as bipedal would also be a nice variation. (Though don't make them look like chicken <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/tounge.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":p" border="0" alt="tounge.gif" /> ) Finally, we could preserve the lifeforms' name; "Babblers", but something else, sounding more... serious would be nice as well. Just an idea: "Bacta" (Bacteria!)
Now I've done my suggestion, I would like feedback, preferably lots of it, but on-topic. Most of all, support! Help me get the loved ones back into the game!
Comments
May I suggest they look like the little dinosaurs that are used in, umm, I think it was Jurassic Park 2, they swarm a guy in a stream bed. Another possible look could be a spider-like creature. Or maybe even blend both those looks.
I like the inclusion of the Dynamic Infestation (DI) into the idea.
Plus, I would make them stick around till they die or until the creature that spawned them (maybe even the hive?) de-spawns them back into the DI.
Again, have to say, I think this idea has all kinds of fun for both the Kharaa and the Marines.
<img src="http://matiss.files.wordpress.com/2007/06/sick-space-tribble.jpg" border="0" class="linked-image" />
yeah, i like , i like <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/smile-fix.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":)" border="0" alt="smile-fix.gif" />
<!--coloro:#696969--><span style="color:#696969"><!--/coloro-->** Removed picture to reduce post size **<!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc--><!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I think the name should still be babblers, too; when you think of what they are, the name just kind... fitted in well. And it would be nice for the oldskool fanboys. ^_^
<!--quoteo(post=1650726:date=Sep 20 2007, 10:08 AM:name=niaccurshi)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(niaccurshi @ Sep 20 2007, 10:08 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1650726"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I liked the tactical importance of babblers, but I disagreed with them doing damage. The best thing about them wasn't the fact that they could kill marines, it was that a normal skulk could hide in with them and get in to entrenched marine areas because of the chaos. I'd love for babblers to be reintroduced some way to allow for this (as a second or third hive situation obviously), but if the coding of their movement etc couldn't be handled a lot better there's little point.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<!--quoteo(post=1650739:date=Sep 20 2007, 10:45 AM:name=locallyunscene)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(locallyunscene @ Sep 20 2007, 10:45 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1650739"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Yeah I'd like see them be more decoys than anything, maybe providing an effect like umbra and disappearing after taking 30%-50% dmg.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I would say that damage is not the most important function. In my opinion they should do *some* damage at least, some passive aliens would seem somewhat useless. It doesn't have to be much. But there has to be reason not to ignore them. When they were still in the game, I did indeed use them to cause confusion; e.g. spawn a few when skulks were nearby to help or spawn some when I ran off. If they'd have no damage, marines would just ignore them and run on. Also; I really don't like the idea of them becoming some sort of umbra-like creatures. They have to be active and semi-retarded. (which means that they don't have imba bunnyhopskills, but will go and jump at a marine when nearby)
<!--quoteo(post=1650810:date=Sep 20 2007, 02:38 PM:name=corpsman)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(corpsman @ Sep 20 2007, 02:38 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1650810"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->It would be cool if a gorge who chose them as an upgrade, upon death would spawn these. So just like the "last ditch effort" that redemtion brings, a gorge could choose to spawn these when he dies. The HPO they do could be very little, so it is more of an annoying thing to the marine, but it would still make them stop to shoot these creatures, opening them up to other aliens, plus would be kind of a funny thing if say the marine had lo health and these little guys killed him >D<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I'd say.. no. This would totally eliminate all the tactical purpose of the ability. You have to be able to choose to spawn them at any point in a fight, to turn the outcome. Your ability, however, does sound like a nice ability for another alien; more of in the sense of "flies" buzzing around the corpse, stinging or biting nearby marines, doing little damage.
---
Another small elaboration; I already suggested a way of ordering them around, for instance you could use a "spit"-like ability. Where the spit hits, the babblers go, if it's a marine or structure they attack, if it's something else, they'll move there. (Think of the game overlord)
yeah, that sounds neat. You could spit into a vent, and have it so they stay put until some marines come by > babbler ambush <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/smile-fix.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":)" border="0" alt="smile-fix.gif" /> maybe even make them cling to walls and ceilings so you could have them wait above doorways.
Gorge is working an area, hears marines... Spawn 1 or 2 babblers and they just sit there until marines come into view, at which point they attack doing 25% damage of a normal skulk. That gives little gorgie time enough to wander away in search of a more friendly environment.
Please do stay on topic, if you would like to make a suggestion of your own, feel free to create the topic!
Keep the ideas flowing guys! The ordering around sounds promising to me.
i quite liked having them look like skulks for the reason that they are decoys for the real skulk players, marines get confused and won't know which to shoot.
i only really got three things to say about babblers in ns2 though: left.4.dead. not a bad thing though, i'm just saying that doing something like that(clever AI, fluid animations) would really kick posterior when it comes to aliens. but it would probably quite quickly unbalance the game as the marines have to fight off hordes of AI-controlled aliens and players at the same time.
what i'm trying to say is really that i don't want to see them ingame just because that its cool with hordes, i want them to fill a niche that helps the kharaa. sure being cannon-fodder is basically a niche, but it should be more than just a "spawn and forget" weapon.
one option would have been if they were like the 'children' of the gorge, following it around and protecting it in case someone is out hunting gorges. the gorge player would then have the possibility to give the babblers orders depending on what he wants them to do.
Put them on sentry somewhere and they'll be defensive and warn the gorge and the hive about intruders.
Order them to follow the gorge around and they will distract the enemy while the gorge finishes what he was planning to do/running away.
Order them to hide in corners and ventilation shafts in a room, wait for the marine to come in, start shooting after the gorge, the gorge runs past a corner, the marine comes after, the gorge orders the babblers to attack. the marine suddenly realizes the room he just ran through was crawling with little buggers that now will crawl all over him and practically do him in. hehe, now this is something that i would have loved to see in a multiplayer fps <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/tounge.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":p" border="0" alt="tounge.gif" />
But I don't think gorges role should be changed. I think slot one should be the babbler's. Since I believe alt fire was likely to be included into this game, I think the alt fire for the first ability should spawn your babbler. You would have a small limit (2-4 depending on balance, I would rather them be weaker and be able to have more though) on how many you could have, you would have to stay still for a moment when creating it, and it would cost a TON of energy (like 90%). Primary fire would be your current standard spit attack, but instead of being an attack it would direct your babblers to do something, if you spit a marine, they would attack him, same with buildings. You could direct them to certain points, but this would only make them go their and stay for a moment, then come back. They wouldn't be able to assault a base without you going in too, they would essentially be glued to you and follow you everywhere. They would be very weak though because I don't want the gorges to become a combat race, or even really to have the potential to do so. Babbler's would be defenders and distractions and would suicidically throw themselves at the gorges enemies like little nub skulks allowing the gorge to flee or call for help. (or if the marine is weak/bad/not expecting the gorge, possibly even kill him)
but yes, gorges with little babbler minions... <!--coloro:#00FF00--><span style="color:#00FF00"><!--/coloro-->YES YES YES YES YES YES YES<!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc--> but gotta keep the gorges as support and not evil little war machines
"Omg Haxxor..." <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/asrifle.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid="::asrifle::" border="0" alt="asrifle.gif" /> <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/skulk.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid="::skulk::" border="0" alt="skulk.gif" /> <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/skulk.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid="::skulk::" border="0" alt="skulk.gif" /> <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/pudgy.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid="::gorge::" border="0" alt="pudgy.gif" /> "nothing can stop the babbler!!!"
one option would have been if they were like the 'children' of the gorge, following it around and protecting it in case someone is out hunting gorges. the gorge player would then have the possibility to give the babblers orders depending on what he wants them to do.
Put them on sentry somewhere and they'll be defensive and warn the gorge and the hive about intruders.
Order them to follow the gorge around and they will distract the enemy while the gorge finishes what he was planning to do/running away.
Order them to hide in corners and ventilation shafts in a room, wait for the marine to come in, start shooting after the gorge, the gorge runs past a corner, the marine comes after, the gorge orders the babblers to attack. the marine suddenly realizes the room he just ran through was crawling with little buggers that now will crawl all over him and practically do him in. hehe, now this is something that i would have loved to see in a multiplayer fps <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/tounge.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":p" border="0" alt="tounge.gif" /><!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
That is a cool idea, gorge would be kind of like a hive mind, might be overly complicated to actually do in the game though - and it might step on other players toes a bit - but i guess as an end game ability it would awesome seeing the gorge as a skulk master <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/biggrin-fix.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":D" border="0" alt="biggrin-fix.gif" />
What about this idea -its very simple and probably sounds dumb now that ive read your post lol - you can only spawn one babbler at a time, but you can control it as you do a normal skulk (it could be faster but weaker ), when it dies you spawn another one. Kind of like those old quake mods where you fly a missle from the missles view.
Basically this would give the gorges two uses for babblers, scouting ahead, and overwhelming the marines with a constant barrage of skulks.
The gorge could even be invisible if it gets the sc upgrade.
All without the server crashing goodness haha.
<!--QuoteBegin-ShadowedEclipse+--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(ShadowedEclipse)</div><div class='quotemain'><!--QuoteEBegin-->But I don't think gorges role should be changed. I think slot one should be the babbler's. Since I believe alt fire was likely to be included into this game, I think the alt fire for the first ability should spawn your babbler. You would have a small limit (2-4 depending on balance, I would rather them be weaker and be able to have more though) on how many you could have, you would have to stay still for a moment when creating it, and it would cost a TON of energy (like 90%). Primary fire would be your current standard spit attack, but instead of being an attack it would direct your babblers to do something, if you spit a marine, they would attack him, same with buildings. You could direct them to certain points, but this would only make them go their and stay for a moment, then come back. They wouldn't be able to assault a base without you going in too, they would essentially be glued to you and follow you everywhere. They would be very weak though because I don't want the gorges to become a combat race, or even really to have the potential to do so. Babbler's would be defenders and distractions and would suicidically throw themselves at the gorges enemies like little nub skulks allowing the gorge to flee or call for help. (or if the marine is weak/bad/not expecting the gorge, possibly even kill him)<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
the gorge role wouldn't be greatly compromised if you gave it the <i>option</i> to have babblers. it wouldn't and shouldn't be compulsory. consider it a sort of mutation available for gorges, so that they can sacrifice speed or stealth or whatnot for the ability to spawn and control babblers. it will still be a very supportive class as babblers would<i>( if they were implemented, goes for my entire reply as i prefer not to add the "if" all the time)</i> wouldn't really be trustworthy enough to use against a properly defended site.
How you create your babblers is a bit unimportant. you could spawn them from your own body at timed intervals, filling up your "babbler-pool" which varies in size depending on hives. you could have them spawn at some alien buildings, just go up to one and fill up your pool, or you could create them as minor buildings and nurture them up. probably many other options as well, like using energy to spawn them, but its important that its either easy or quick.
whats more worrisome is how you would control them. a drop-down menu would be the easiest to make (fresh) people understand. But the most reflexive would be a "pheromone-grenade"(if thats what they call the stuff they use to control the ant-lions in hl2). but depending on the tactical demands, you would have "aggressive pheromones", "defensive pheromones" and "stealthy pheromones". All of these would have the standard "squeeze to center on yourself"-alt-attack, and "spit/throw" primary attack to send them in a direction.
Defensive(blue?) would cause them to stick around a place and attack people coming within range, if on personal they will follow you around and attack things that attacks you.
If you use aggressive(red) and spit on something, they will probably go into search-and-destroy(in groups, not alone like some black guy in the beginning of a cheap horror-movie), if you use it on yourself, they will probably follow you around and attack anything in sight.
Stealth(purple/black?) would cause them to "hide"<i>(if its even possible to try to make an AI try to hide itself while being invisible, would require a minor AI-genius)</i> and perhaps run away if attacked depending on the distance between themselves and the aggressor. used on your person and they would probably spread around a bit away from you, so that they would be able to jump at anyone trying to sneak up on you if you give them new orders.
one of the advantages of spitting pheromones though is that you can put aggressive on a skulk, and they would follow it around like if they were following you around. if you put them on aggressive on the skulk, he can just get them around a corner to spawn chaos, and then come around himself later on <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/smile-fix.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":)" border="0" alt="smile-fix.gif" />
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->That is a cool idea, gorge would be kind of like a hive mind, might be overly complicated to actually do in the game though - and it might step on other players toes a bit - but i guess as an end game ability it would awesome seeing the gorge as a skulk master biggrin-fix.gif
What about this idea -its very simple and probably sounds dumb now that ive read your post lol - you can only spawn one babbler at a time, but you can control it as you do a normal skulk (it could be faster but weaker ), when it dies you spawn another one. Kind of like those old quake mods where you fly a missle from the missles view.
Basically this would give the gorges two uses for babblers, scouting ahead, and overwhelming the marines with a constant barrage of skulks.
The gorge could even be invisible if it gets the sc upgrade.
All without the server crashing goodness haha.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
i thought NS was known for being a complicated game <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/biggrin-fix.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":D" border="0" alt="biggrin-fix.gif" />. it can probably be annoying to other players though. but think of it this way, the biggest difference on a babbler and a defensive tower is that its moving around and doesn't take as much punishment(and doesnt do ranged attacks but the mobility kinda makes it a projectile). and yeah, being a master over like 6-10 babblers at 3 hives would have something of a charm to it <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/tounge.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":p" border="0" alt="tounge.gif" />
its not a bad idea, but it kinda sounds like something different in my ears, kinda surveillance-stylish. sending off some bug to 'bug' the enemy is handy, but it doesnt sound like what I expect from babblers(i.e meatshields in groups). would have been fun with a parasitic "giant" mosquito that you can fly around to spot marines, and with the right upgrades even being able to use as a kamikaze attack that gives them the parasite-detection thing.
or to simplify it, perhaps they've already figured out a new way to use the parasite, so that you as a kharaa player are able to see what the enemy sees in some distorted manner. would make the parasite even more handy than just tracking down marines.
hrm, i'm getting late for bed, all write and no sleep will make me a dead man tomorrow.
How you create your babblers is a bit unimportant. you could spawn them from your own body at timed intervals, filling up your "babbler-pool" which varies in size depending on hives. you could have them spawn at some alien buildings, just go up to one and fill up your pool, or you could create them as minor buildings and nurture them up. probably many other options as well, like using energy to spawn them, but its important that its either easy or quick.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I agree with most of what you said here. I like your idea's of having the babbler-pool growing with the number of hives, though I would rather see the babbler as an ability then something you spawn from a building, if only because when you need the babbler's most is probably not when you have structures all around.
I REALLY don't think babblers should be able to go very far from the gorge. If they can go wherever, you could rush gorges as a team, camp out in a gorge fort and send the one skulk on your team run around with 40 babblers on his tail. If one died or even all of them, who cares, you can just keep replenishing the stock from the safety of the fort. I would hate to see babbler's only be available very late in the game too, (to stop the gorge/babbler rush) because I think they would be a very useful and fun tool for the gorge to defend himself with early game, and would become pretty useless against tools like electricity and gls, which can be plentiful late game. The babbler's role should be defensive, and they should only attack a base if the gorge is too.
That's why I left the "spawner" in the middle. It can be a gorge, but doesn't have to be. Whichever alien gets it, it'll be my favourite!
I really like the idea, imagen the first case of gorge rush EVER! =D
Maybe if they were small long-legged like creatures? =D
I think something with eight long legs and a tiny body would be really scary to encounter in a vent! x3
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->one way to stop blabber rushes is to make them slowly loss health when not on DI, so they cant be used totaly offensively<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
don't think blabbers would be as scary as player-controlled aliens, so the risk for them being overly effective on the offensive is very small in my opinion.
Gorge lays eggs.
after a few seconds they grow into babblers!
Babblers go mental and chomp stuff <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/biggrin-fix.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":D" border="0" alt="biggrin-fix.gif" />
This is a very cool idea, like the hologram in Duke Nukem 3D, and perhaps it should have its own thread?