schkorpioI can mspaintJoin Date: 2003-05-23Member: 16635Members
depends what you mean.
source already can do this, but not on the scale of say doom 3 where everything is dynamic, the same light in the doom 3 engine will cast a shadow from and on everything that gets in to the light.
Where as hl2 is a bit more of a magic trick, but it can do it already.
aeroripperJoin Date: 2005-02-25Member: 42471NS1 Playtester, Forum Moderators, Constellation
I don't know if they're improving their below-average dynamic lighting model, but I do know they're adding pre-rendered shadow maps. View episode2 trailers to view.
Self shadowing will look awesome in NS2! <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/smile-fix.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":)" border="0" alt="smile-fix.gif" />
The idea to merge precalculated shadows and realtime ones is pretty neat. It allows low end computers to show the basic stuff while adding more realism to high end machines.
It would be nice if Hammer could calculate lighting while designing the maps though. That way we can see our lighting changes in realtime (almost) while making the map and also reducing compile time drastically.
schkorpioI can mspaintJoin Date: 2003-05-23Member: 16635Members
<!--quoteo(post=1633241:date=Jun 14 2007, 02:02 AM:name=Andos)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Andos @ Jun 14 2007, 02:02 AM) [snapback]1633241[/snapback]</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec--> Self shadowing will look awesome in NS2! <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/smile-fix.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":)" border="0" alt="smile-fix.gif" />
The idea to merge precalculated shadows and realtime ones is pretty neat. It allows low end computers to show the basic stuff while adding more realism to high end machines.
It would be nice if Hammer could calculate lighting while designing the maps though. That way we can see our lighting changes in realtime (almost) while making the map and also reducing compile time drastically. <!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
yes a button to render the lights in your 3d view would be awesome <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/smile-fix.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":)" border="0" alt="smile-fix.gif" /> a few lights at a time wouldnt take much time at all.
Just wait til ep2 sdk update, it seems like we're getting lighting preview. <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/smile-fix.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":)" border="0" alt="smile-fix.gif" />
this thread is the very reason why NS2 should be made on the doom 3 engine stead. I mean take a serious look @ both doom 3 and HL2, which 1 actually has the NS feel?
<!--quoteo(post=1633477:date=Jun 14 2007, 02:32 PM:name=Reyn)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Reyn @ Jun 14 2007, 02:32 PM) [snapback]1633477[/snapback]</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec--> this thread is the very reason why NS2 should be made on the doom 3 engine stead. I mean take a serious look @ both doom 3 and HL2, which 1 actually has the NS feel? <!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
To be fair, not even the Half-Life engine has the "NS feel." It's all about the people making the games, not about which engine you choose.
<!--quoteo(post=1633477:date=Jun 14 2007, 11:32 PM:name=Reyn)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Reyn @ Jun 14 2007, 11:32 PM) [snapback]1633477[/snapback]</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec--> this thread is the very reason why NS2 should be made on the doom 3 engine stead. I mean take a serious look @ both doom 3 and HL2, which 1 actually has the NS feel? <!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
You should really see a doom3 level without shadows. They are visually unappealing and unless the devs decide to completely revamp gameplay I don't see how a map that is 80% dark could work out.
<!--quoteo(post=1633486:date=Jun 15 2007, 08:25 AM:name=Faskalia)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Faskalia @ Jun 15 2007, 08:25 AM) [snapback]1633486[/snapback]</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec--> You should really see a doom3 level without shadows. They are visually unappealing and unless the devs decide to completely revamp gameplay I don't see how a map that is 80% dark could work out. <!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
i said doom 3 engine, not doom 3, just because Doom 3 is a "dark" game doesn't mean you must make dark games with the engine by default. Heck, people want to play a James Cameron 1986 Aliens kinda game and they don't like the darkness and gore.
The doom 3 engine gives that perfect high tech industrial look for a game like NS, something that source engine does not.
and the only reasons, imo, why the NS team chose the source engine over the doom 3 engine is because:
* they are more familiar with valve's product * source engine is more hardware friendly for the poor who can't afford a good comp. (heck, not even [im] tags are allowed in this forum, they try to make it 56k friendly in the year 2007)
I might sound abit harsh, but I like to get str8 to the point instead of beating around the bush.
aeroripperJoin Date: 2005-02-25Member: 42471NS1 Playtester, Forum Moderators, Constellation
edited June 2007
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec--> and the only reasons, imo, why the NS team chose the source engine over the doom 3 engine is because:
* they are more familiar with valve's product * source engine is more hardware friendly for the poor who can't afford a good comp. (heck, not even [im] tags are allowed in this forum, they try to make it 56k friendly in the year 2007)
I might sound abit harsh, but I like to get str8 to the point instead of beating around the bush.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
All those reasons make the most sense to me. The doom3 engine has lots of drawbacks for the sort of game NS is. While yes, heavy stencil shadows would add to the atmosphere, it wouldn't lend it self well to the kind of performance you would want in NS2 (imagine NS with 16 players on the doom3 engine, a great majority of people would not be able to run it well).
NS2 will probably have beautiful art assets, and take advantage of the coming upgrades in the engine by the time its released. I'm not worried about the engine being outdated visually in the least. Also, this topic has been discussed to death.
<!--quoteo(post=1633523:date=Jun 15 2007, 11:47 AM:name=aeroripper)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(aeroripper @ Jun 15 2007, 11:47 AM) [snapback]1633523[/snapback]</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec--> All those reasons make the most sense to me. The doom3 engine has lots of drawbacks for the sort of game NS is. While yes, heavy stencil shadows would add to the atmosphere, it wouldn't lend it self well to the kind of performance you would want in NS2 (imagine NS with 16 players on the doom3 engine, a great majority of people would not be able to run it well). <!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Im imagining a 16 player game OUTDOOR running on the upgraded doom 3 engine with mega texture technology and that game is called "Enemy territory: quake wars". Bottom line, Doom 3 is 3 years old and it runs @ 50+ FPS @ 1280x1024 resolution with all eye candy cranked up on a Geforce 6800Ultra (a card that only cost $160 nowadays).
For people who whine about making NS2 run on a $5 Geforce 4, don't you think you're abit too greedy or maybe stingy?
schkorpioI can mspaintJoin Date: 2003-05-23Member: 16635Members
i dunno, while doom 3 engine games always looked nice, they just didn't feel right, the sounds where not quite right, i can't point my finger at a particular thing that mad it feel strange but it just did.
<!--quoteo(post=1633544:date=Jun 15 2007, 01:16 PM:name=schkorpio)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(schkorpio @ Jun 15 2007, 01:16 PM) [snapback]1633544[/snapback]</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec--> i dunno, while doom 3 engine games always looked nice, they just didn't feel right, the sounds where not quite right, i can't point my finger at a particular thing that mad it feel strange but it just did. <!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
the sound has absolute nothing to do with the game engine, period. Not really sure what you're trying to say.
The only reason Doom 3 looks more like NS than HL2 is the art direction. It's not something inherent in the engine. Half-Life 2 is set in an Eastern European city, Doom 3 is set on a space station. Obviously the latter is going to look more like NS, which is also set on space stations, than the former.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->The primary innovation of the Doom 3 engine was its use of entirely dynamic per-pixel lighting. Whereas previously, 3D engines had relied primarily on precalculated lighting or lightmaps, and while dynamic effects had been available before, the effect merely changed the brightness on an entire object. The approach used in Doom 3 permitted more realistic lighting and shadows that had not previously been seen in video and PC games.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
since NS2 doesn't use the Doom 3 engine, we will not be seeing any true dynamic lightning and shadows.
schkorpioI can mspaintJoin Date: 2003-05-23Member: 16635Members
<!--quoteo(post=1633557:date=Jun 15 2007, 01:54 PM:name=Reyn)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Reyn @ Jun 15 2007, 01:54 PM) [snapback]1633557[/snapback]</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec--> wrong since NS2 doesn't use the Doom 3 engine, we will not be seeing any true dynamic lightning and shadows. <!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
yes thats correct but ns was never really about that anyway
what i was trying to say is that the "feel" of the game was just strange. they way things react when interacted with
The problem with the doom3/quake4 engine is that it has no radiosity. This leads to complete dark areas that should simply be shadowed. With very careful mapping, you can generally get around it -- but it's a real limitation nonetheless.
<!--quoteo(post=1633143:date=Jun 12 2007, 09:22 PM:name=Radix)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Radix @ Jun 12 2007, 09:22 PM) [snapback]1633143[/snapback]</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec--> How is a map with prerendered radiosity going to accept dynamic lighting? Will it just be painted over top of the existing map's light settings? <!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<!--quoteo(post=1633557:date=Jun 15 2007, 05:54 AM:name=Reyn)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Reyn @ Jun 15 2007, 05:54 AM) [snapback]1633557[/snapback]</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec--> wrong since NS2 doesn't use the Doom 3 engine, we will not be seeing any true dynamic lightning and shadows. <!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
It's a moot point. The decision has been made. Why would you argue about something that has zero bearing on reality? The HL2 engine is being used and if the final product doesn't have sufficiently sexy shadows for you there are other games out there.
Not to mention, if they <i>had</i> done the game on Doom3, imagine how many people would just write it off saying "meh, it looks like doom3". And with the completely different art direction of the NS universe, hopefully there should be no mistaking it for HL2. (Sorta like NS1 in comparison to HL1.)
<!--quoteo(post=1633557:date=Jun 14 2007, 08:54 PM:name=Reyn)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Reyn @ Jun 14 2007, 08:54 PM) [snapback]1633557[/snapback]</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec--> wrong since NS2 doesn't use the Doom 3 engine, we will not be seeing any true dynamic lightning and shadows. <!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Except that dynamic lighting and shadows are being added in to the Source engine in Episode 2.
I do agree the doom3 engine would suit ns2 better, being into the art section of modding, doom3 supports all the goodies, good normal mapping, colour spec maps and as already mentioned fully dynamic lighting and shadowing. For those moaning doom3 always being dark, as of the quake4 update, the d3 engines supports better ambient lighting.
Source just looks outdated, but the thing that worries me most is sources horrible netcode and hit detection.
Im still fine with it though as long as ns2 is made.
Comments
source already can do this, but not on the scale of say doom 3 where everything is dynamic, the same light in the doom 3 engine will cast a shadow from and on everything that gets in to the light.
Where as hl2 is a bit more of a magic trick, but it can do it already.
The idea to merge precalculated shadows and realtime ones is pretty neat. It allows low end computers to show the basic stuff while adding more realism to high end machines.
It would be nice if Hammer could calculate lighting while designing the maps though. That way we can see our lighting changes in realtime (almost) while making the map and also reducing compile time drastically.
...combine pre-calculated lighting with some dynamic lights and shadows here or there...
Self shadowing will look awesome in NS2! <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/smile-fix.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":)" border="0" alt="smile-fix.gif" />
The idea to merge precalculated shadows and realtime ones is pretty neat. It allows low end computers to show the basic stuff while adding more realism to high end machines.
It would be nice if Hammer could calculate lighting while designing the maps though. That way we can see our lighting changes in realtime (almost) while making the map and also reducing compile time drastically.
<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
yes a button to render the lights in your 3d view would be awesome <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/smile-fix.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":)" border="0" alt="smile-fix.gif" /> a few lights at a time wouldnt take much time at all.
Just wait til ep2 sdk update, it seems like we're getting lighting preview. <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/smile-fix.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":)" border="0" alt="smile-fix.gif" />
<a href="http://www.interlopers.net/forum/viewtopic.php?t=18327" target="_blank">http://www.interlopers.net/forum/viewtopic.php?t=18327</a>
Just wait til ep2 sdk update, it seems like we're getting lighting preview. <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/smile-fix.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":)" border="0" alt="smile-fix.gif" />
<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
omg thats simply awesome <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/smile-fix.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":)" border="0" alt="smile-fix.gif" />
this thread is the very reason why NS2 should be made on the doom 3 engine stead. I mean take a serious look @ both doom 3 and HL2, which 1 actually has the NS feel?
<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
To be fair, not even the Half-Life engine has the "NS feel." It's all about the people making the games, not about which engine you choose.
this thread is the very reason why NS2 should be made on the doom 3 engine stead. I mean take a serious look @ both doom 3 and HL2, which 1 actually has the NS feel?
<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
You should really see a doom3 level without shadows. They are visually unappealing and unless the devs decide to completely revamp gameplay I don't see how a map that is 80% dark could work out.
You should really see a doom3 level without shadows. They are visually unappealing and unless the devs decide to completely revamp gameplay I don't see how a map that is 80% dark could work out.
<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
i said doom 3 engine, not doom 3, just because Doom 3 is a "dark" game doesn't mean you must make dark games with the engine by default. Heck, people want to play a James Cameron 1986 Aliens kinda game and they don't like the darkness and gore.
The doom 3 engine gives that perfect high tech industrial look for a game like NS, something that source engine does not.
take these simple screen shots for example:
<a href="http://www.pantherproducts.co.uk/Games%20Zone/Images/Quake4_Big2.jpg" target="_blank">http://www.pantherproducts.co.uk/Games%20Z...Quake4_Big2.jpg</a>
<a href="http://a248.e.akamai.net/f/248/5462/2h/images.gamezone.com/screens/26/3/93/s26393_pc_54.jpg" target="_blank">http://a248.e.akamai.net/f/248/5462/2h/ima...26393_pc_54.jpg</a>
<a href="http://warp.povusers.org/doom3snapshots/doom3snap12.jpg" target="_blank">http://warp.povusers.org/doom3snapshots/doom3snap12.jpg</a>
<a href="http://images.photogallery.indiatimes.com/photo.cms?msid=1689656" target="_blank">http://images.photogallery.indiatimes.com/...ms?msid=1689656</a>
and the only reasons, imo, why the NS team chose the source engine over the doom 3 engine is because:
* they are more familiar with valve's product
* source engine is more hardware friendly for the poor who can't afford a good comp. (heck, not even [im] tags are allowed in this forum, they try to make it 56k friendly in the year 2007)
I might sound abit harsh, but I like to get str8 to the point instead of beating around the bush.
and the only reasons, imo, why the NS team chose the source engine over the doom 3 engine is because:
* they are more familiar with valve's product
* source engine is more hardware friendly for the poor who can't afford a good comp. (heck, not even [im] tags are allowed in this forum, they try to make it 56k friendly in the year 2007)
I might sound abit harsh, but I like to get str8 to the point instead of beating around the bush.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
All those reasons make the most sense to me. The doom3 engine has lots of drawbacks for the sort of game NS is. While yes, heavy stencil shadows would add to the atmosphere, it wouldn't lend it self well to the kind of performance you would want in NS2 (imagine NS with 16 players on the doom3 engine, a great majority of people would not be able to run it well).
NS2 will probably have beautiful art assets, and take advantage of the coming upgrades in the engine by the time its released. I'm not worried about the engine being outdated visually in the least. Also, this topic has been discussed to death.
All those reasons make the most sense to me. The doom3 engine has lots of drawbacks for the sort of game NS is. While yes, heavy stencil shadows would add to the atmosphere, it wouldn't lend it self well to the kind of performance you would want in NS2 (imagine NS with 16 players on the doom3 engine, a great majority of people would not be able to run it well).
<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Im imagining a 16 player game OUTDOOR running on the upgraded doom 3 engine with mega texture technology and that game is called "Enemy territory: quake wars". Bottom line, Doom 3 is 3 years old and it runs @ 50+ FPS @ 1280x1024 resolution with all eye candy cranked up on a Geforce 6800Ultra (a card that only cost $160 nowadays).
For people who whine about making NS2 run on a $5 Geforce 4, don't you think you're abit too greedy or maybe stingy?
counter evolution is ignorance, my friend.
i dunno, while doom 3 engine games always looked nice, they just didn't feel right, the sounds where not quite right, i can't point my finger at a particular thing that mad it feel strange but it just did.
<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
the sound has absolute nothing to do with the game engine, period. Not really sure what you're trying to say.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->The primary innovation of the Doom 3 engine was its use of entirely dynamic per-pixel lighting. Whereas previously, 3D engines had relied primarily on precalculated lighting or lightmaps, and while dynamic effects had been available before, the effect merely changed the brightness on an entire object. The approach used in Doom 3 permitted more realistic lighting and shadows that had not previously been seen in video and PC games.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
since NS2 doesn't use the Doom 3 engine, we will not be seeing any true dynamic lightning and shadows.
wrong
since NS2 doesn't use the Doom 3 engine, we will not be seeing any true dynamic lightning and shadows.
<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
yes thats correct but ns was never really about that anyway
what i was trying to say is that the "feel" of the game was just strange. they way things react when interacted with
How is a map with prerendered radiosity going to accept dynamic lighting? Will it just be painted over top of the existing map's light settings?
<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Same way radiosity does, light contributions add.
wrong
since NS2 doesn't use the Doom 3 engine, we will not be seeing any true dynamic lightning and shadows.
<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
It's a moot point. The decision has been made. Why would you argue about something that has zero bearing on reality? The HL2 engine is being used and if the final product doesn't have sufficiently sexy shadows for you there are other games out there.
wrong
since NS2 doesn't use the Doom 3 engine, we will not be seeing any true dynamic lightning and shadows.
<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Except that dynamic lighting and shadows are being added in to the Source engine in Episode 2.
Source just looks outdated, but the thing that worries me most is sources horrible netcode and hit detection.
Im still fine with it though as long as ns2 is made.