<!--quoteo(post=1632576:date=Jun 8 2007, 09:32 PM:name=wankalot)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(wankalot @ Jun 8 2007, 09:32 PM) [snapback]1632576[/snapback]</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec--> Though i dont play anymore... just font have time/money, i have mates who do. 2 of them are lame. one has a necron army, the other a tau. Basically they will play a number of games when they meet. My other mate uses guard and is the best out of them probably (I suck and have just about forgotten all the rules lol).
I used to use tyranids, but sold them. But any way the ######test thing ever was playing the tau army! one he went first and, through extraordinary luck, killed my carnifex before i did anything. though i managed to get into close combat with a few units, and slice them good, through his jumpiness/wtfzorz range he won.
As for the necron dude.... well neither of my 2 other friends usually agree to play him if he uses necrons (the army includes a monolith and a nightbringer LOL). Usually we would only play him if he had a cry.... yeah he used to cry over 40k <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/confused-fix.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid="???" border="0" alt="confused-fix.gif" /> .
This story's point is: Most people think necrons are crap, some people like tau.... but neither race imho dont really feel like they belong!
I hate how GW are just like "hey guys lets make a race for the kiddies to use and nerf the rules so they can actually feel like they are using tactics!"
Tau are pretty nice in DOW, but on table they have ALWAYS given me the ######. necrons are ###### in both. <!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
The problem isn't with the Tau or the Necrons, the problem is that 40k as a whole is horribly unbalanced. If you want deep strategy and tactics, go and play Warhammer fantasy, because the average game of 40k is decided before the armies even deploy. A balanced army will always lose to an army specifically designed to fight one opponent.
Its almost rock-paper-scissors-esqe. Tau, if played by a reasonably competant player, <i>are</i> pretty effective. This is probably because they were designed pretty recently (like the Necrons), and so they've got something to deal with every situation.... except heavy armour. Playing as Tau against marines before Vespid were introduced was a nightmare, the beardy command squad of doom with a Terminator Grand Master Lord High Champion (or whatever) and a million power weapons and invunerable saves would be the death of me every single time. Sure, you can load up on battlesuits, but they're not cheap, either in terms of points or cash.
Its not even a question of which army you pick; i'll give you an example from my most recent game. I was Tau, my opponent was Deamonhunters. He doesn't like Grey Knights, and so his army was mostly Stormtroopers, with an Inquisitor Lord, Demonhost and Assasin thrown in for good measure. I knew his army would be mostly stormtroopers, so I opted for an infantry-heavy army, lots of fire warriors, kroot, and some Gue'vesa, and only two battlesuits.
Quite simply, he didn't have a chance.
His stormtroopers were gunned down by my fire warriors and kroot, his chimera-mounted stormtroopers were obliterated by my tank, and the inquisitor lord's retinue were whittled down by drones and battlesuits until only the lord was left. The assasin actually managed to get into close combat and succesfully killed 16 kroot single handed before being gunned down by fire warriors, the Demonhost also got into hand to hand but was mobbed by gue'vesa and fire warriors, and the Inquisitor Lord charged and killed my commander. By the end of the game, she was all that was left of his army.
Quite simply his army wasn't set up to beat mine. His stormtroopers, afaik, cost more than my fire warriors, despite being slightly less effective in terms of shooting. He had no ranged firepower whatsoever, which gave my tank the whole game in which to blast chunks out of his Stormtroopers (against most opponents it doesn't last past turn 2). He also had nothing fast enough to stand a reasonable chance of getting into hand-to-hand except the assasin and demonhost.
Had he opted for a Grey-Knight heavy army, i'm pretty confident he would have slaughtered me.
My army was totally optimised to beat his, so much so that I feel a bit bad about it, as his army was chosen for its theme and feel, wheas mine was just chosen to beat his. You can do it with just about any army. I've been out-shot by Imperial Guard, out-manuvered by Eldar, and just bearded to death by what feels like every chapter of space marines in the book.
So I guess this is a very long winded way of saying: Don't hate the playa, hate the <i>game</i>.
Or, Nil IQ, don't play one off games, against an opponent you know?
Set up a tournament between friends, using the same army list against each opponent, and you'd have no choice but to use a balanced army. Unless you're like me, play Eldar, and ALL but one of your friends uses an army with 3+ save or better...
Well normally you make army lists before seting up the match and you exchange army list at the beginning of a match. This way you cannot see the enemys armie and then quickly reorganize your own. This way you usally end up with balanced armys.
For example I am mostly using:
3 bikes 1 trike 4x8 tactical squads 1x5 terminators meele 1x5 terminators ranged 1x hq with commander, flag bearer and apothecarius 1 whirlwind 1 predaor annhilator 3 dreadnoughts
Thats basically my core army I am using when I dont know what I am up against. If I knew that my enemy would use a meele heavy ork army I would switch out the trikes and bikes for another whirlwind. Against a ranged heavy tau army, with main focus on strong HQs I would add a landraider, scrap the termi ranged and stock up the termi meele. But as long as you dont know what your enemy is up with its is either:
I can see what you're trying to say, but that doesn't make the game balanced. Even if you don't know what army your opponent is bringing, and even if both of you choose "balanced" armies, it'll usually be quite obvious just from looking at the two armies who's going to win. Some armies just don't stand a chance against others regardless of what "strategy" you might try to employ.
Especially when both sides are playing armies with only a "few" high cost units (tau vs SM) the terrain modifiers and also luck usually play a far greater role than in a battle of sheer numbers (orks vs tyrandis).
But yeah, you can definately too often judge the outcome of a game by looking at the army lists and the terrain <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/sad-fix.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":(" border="0" alt="sad-fix.gif" />
ShockehIf a packet drops on the web and nobody's near to see it...Join Date: 2002-11-19Member: 9336NS1 Playtester, Forum Moderators, Constellation
edited June 2007
<!--quoteo(post=1632648:date=Jun 9 2007, 02:54 PM:name=Nil_IQ)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Nil_IQ @ Jun 9 2007, 02:54 PM) [snapback]1632648[/snapback]</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec--> Its almost rock-paper-scissors-esqe. Tau, if played by a reasonably competant player, <i>are</i> pretty effective. This is probably because they were designed pretty recently (like the Necrons), and so they've got something to deal with every situation.... <b>except heavy armour</b>. Playing as Tau against marines before Vespid were introduced was a nightmare, the beardy command squad of doom with a Terminator Grand Master Lord High Champion (or whatever) and a million power weapons and invunerable saves would be the death of me every single time. Sure, you can load up on battlesuits, but they're not cheap, either in terms of points or cash.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> You know, I actually agreed with nil_IQ on most points, but this....
HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA. MUUUUAAAH HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAH.. HAHAHAHAHA... HEEE HEEE HEEE HEE HAHA HA HA HA *Aneurysm*
I'm sorry, what? The army with access to MORE AP1-3 than any other one in the <b><i>entire game</i></b> is complaining it lacks armour penetration? It must be <i>terrible</i> being able to have S10 AP1 on a model that doesn't even count as Large Infantry, I feel for you, really. The only armies that ever did it better was the Iron Warriors tournament army (being nerfed soon) and the Eldar starcannon spamfest on Guardians (which has already been nerfed). Please God, don't say it again, I might die from the laughter, that actually hurt!
And on the topic of HQ units like that. Two word spring to mind: 'non scoring'. Avoid them, laugh at their pitiful 6" move whilst you float around at 12" a turn through Battlesuit spam (and don't tell me you can't afford it, your opponent had enough points to buy them in the first place) and laugh as your S6 AP1 Plasma Rifles put neat holes in every Terminator. Taking Terminators against Tau = Fail. Hell, actually now I think about it, taking Terminators full stop = Fail.
@ Faskalia - Sadly, that concept doesn't tend to hold true at GT. GT army design is about taking the best point to return ratio, because at the end of the day you don't win based on how many models they kill, or how many you kill, but rather the VP's at the end. You want units that for whatever reason screws their ability to get scoring points (Landspeeder Squadrons ahoy!) and aren't easy to see off or get below half (Hello, Bike squadron) whilst simultaneously doing the same to your opponent. 'Balanced' forces just generally stop cutting the mustard at that point.
The 'Standard' Iron Warriors Chaos Spam: Flying Chaos Lord 'o' Doom. 2 x 5 man Chaos Marine squads armed with fearsome bolters, and nothing else. 9 Obliterators 3 Defilers Basilisk or Vindicator.
Add random other units for objective capping / whatever for giggles.
<!--quoteo(post=1632758:date=Jun 10 2007, 09:09 AM:name=Shockwave)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Shockwave @ Jun 10 2007, 09:09 AM) [snapback]1632758[/snapback]</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec--> @ Faskalia - Sadly, that concept doesn't tend to hold true at GT. GT army design is about taking the best point to return ratio, because at the end of the day you don't win based on how many models they kill, or how many you kill, but rather the VP's at the end. You want units that for whatever reason screws their ability to get scoring points (Landspeeder Squadrons ahoy!) and aren't easy to see off or get below half (Hello, Bike squadron) whilst simultaneously doing the same to your opponent. 'Balanced' forces just generally stop cutting the mustard at that point.
The 'Standard' Iron Warriors Chaos Spam: Flying Chaos Lord 'o' Doom. 2 x 5 man Chaos Marine squads armed with fearsome bolters, and nothing else. 9 Obliterators 3 Defilers Basilisk or Vindicator.
Add random other units for objective capping / whatever for giggles.
- Shockwave <!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Sadly I dont play tourneys. I only battle people at my local GW for fun <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/tounge.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":p" border="0" alt="tounge.gif" />
Man, I'd love to get into the Tabletop if it weren't so FREAKING EXPENSIVE.
Seriously. They're plastic miniatures. A tub of army men only costs about $5.00, why is about a third of the plastic from GW is almost 6 times as expensive? C'mon, guys.
(Also the reason my local gaming shop stopped carrying GW products.)
<!--quoteo(post=1632833:date=Jun 10 2007, 04:53 PM:name=lolfighter)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(lolfighter @ Jun 10 2007, 04:53 PM) [snapback]1632833[/snapback]</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec--> Because they can. Why charge less when you can charge more? <!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Because it's downright not fair for us college students, that's why.
<!--quoteo(post=1632834:date=Jun 10 2007, 10:53 PM:name=cshank4)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(cshank4 @ Jun 10 2007, 10:53 PM) [snapback]1632834[/snapback]</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec--> Because it's downright not fair for us college students, that's why. <!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> You tell that to GW, see if they can avoid laughing.
<!--quoteo(post=1632835:date=Jun 10 2007, 04:55 PM:name=lolfighter)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(lolfighter @ Jun 10 2007, 04:55 PM) [snapback]1632835[/snapback]</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec--> You tell that to GW, see if they can avoid laughing. <!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<!--quoteo(post=1632832:date=Jun 10 2007, 10:49 PM:name=cshank4)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(cshank4 @ Jun 10 2007, 10:49 PM) [snapback]1632832[/snapback]</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec--> Man, I'd love to get into the Tabletop if it weren't so FREAKING EXPENSIVE. Seriously. They're plastic miniatures. A tub of army men only costs about $5.00, why is about a third of the plastic from GW is almost 6 times as expensive? C'mon, guys. (Also the reason my local gaming shop stopped carrying GW products.) <!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Hmm well,
you can just buy a set of big bases and then just start playing. If you really want to play then there is no need to buy the figures. Or you could just use post-its as units. The reason why GW stuff is so expensive is that a: They want to make money.. b: They really maintain and constantly improve their products.
"Let's play!" "Okay!" "Now, the blue bases here are space marines and the red bases are veteran squads and this old milk carton is a Rhino and why are you leaving?"
<!--quoteo(post=1632844:date=Jun 10 2007, 02:27 PM:name=lolfighter)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(lolfighter @ Jun 10 2007, 02:27 PM) [snapback]1632844[/snapback]</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec--> "Let's play!" "Okay!" "Now, the blue bases here are space marines and the red bases are veteran squads and this old milk carton is a Rhino and why are you leaving?" <!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Omg the reason GW can charge so much is more to do with demographics than anything else. I get the feeling that most GW player (unfortunately) are kids who have thier parents buy the models for them. I never had this priviledge, and thats y my army is so pathetically small. If all players payed for thier own models i imagine the prices would be lower because people with part time jobs have difficulty paying $50 upwards for sets of models.
But never fear! Not all is lost! its called EBAY!! with a budget of 100 AUS$ (bout 80 US) i have a 1000ish point nid army... or u can use post-its and milk cartons <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/confused-fix.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid="???" border="0" alt="confused-fix.gif" />
I think you're right about the demographics, but wrong about the demographic. My guess would be that the majority of tabletop gamers are older players with disposable income. The kind who don't mind spending a couple hundred bucks on a decent army as long as they enjoy it.
ShockehIf a packet drops on the web and nobody's near to see it...Join Date: 2002-11-19Member: 9336NS1 Playtester, Forum Moderators, Constellation
<!--quoteo(post=1632894:date=Jun 11 2007, 08:01 AM:name=Dirty_Harry_Potter)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Dirty_Harry_Potter @ Jun 11 2007, 08:01 AM) [snapback]1632894[/snapback]</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec--> gotta agree with lolf there..<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> And you'd both be wrong. 'Veteran' gamers believe they spend more, but they don't. The main income spinner for GW has been, for a very long time, the constant stream of 10-14 year olds that then quit. Why? Because as new gamers, they never have any models. They make large initial purchases over their first few years of gaming, then grow out of it.
Veteran gamers by & large hang around the store, spend very little on a per year basis (maybe they do a new army every 18 months or so, otherwise they buy 'the odd model') whine about pretty much everything and particularily moan about rising prices. In short, GW would love to find a way to get rid of them.
This is with the background of 6 years in GW stores, including doing the figures for two stores for several years.
<!--QuoteBegin-"Faskalia+--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE("Faskalia)</div><div class='quotemain'><!--QuoteEBegin-->a: They want to make money..<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Yes. <!--QuoteBegin-"Faskalia+--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE("Faskalia)</div><div class='quotemain'><!--QuoteEBegin-->b: They really maintain and constantly improve their products.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> And not really, relative to the amount of income these things make.
GW's biggest expenditure is the reason it's been successful - The stores. No other game company has their own dedicated stores, and this has shown as they're the only one still around. Unfortunately, the stores are awesomely inefficient in terms of cost/income ratio, but they keep the hobby alive by ensuring players can find other players, which keeps them in the game.
<!--quoteo(post=1632758:date=Jun 10 2007, 02:09 AM:name=Shockwave)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Shockwave @ Jun 10 2007, 02:09 AM) [snapback]1632758[/snapback]</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec--> You know, I actually agreed with nil_IQ on most points, but this....
HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA. MUUUUAAAH HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAH.. HAHAHAHAHA... HEEE HEEE HEEE HEE HAHA HA HA HA *Aneurysm*
I'm sorry, what? The army with access to MORE AP1-3 than any other one in the <b><i>entire game</i></b> is complaining it lacks armour penetration? It must be <i>terrible</i> being able to have S10 AP1 on a model that doesn't even count as Large Infantry, I feel for you, really. The only armies that ever did it better was the Iron Warriors tournament army (being nerfed soon) and the Eldar starcannon spamfest on Guardians (which has already been nerfed). Please God, don't say it again, I might die from the laughter, that actually hurt! <!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
When I said "heavy armour" what I really meant was "power armour" than anything else.
Tau eat tanks for breakfast, I won't and wasn't trying to deny that.
Terminators arn't really a problem since being so expensive they're worth using railguns against.
The problem isn't a lack of AP 1-3, the problem is the relative cost and rarity of these. Railguns are great, but you can only take a few of them, and the units which can carry them are pretty expensive. The cheapest possible broadside battlesuit is 70 points not counting wargear. The cheapest possible Hammerhead with a railgun is 150 points, again with no upgrades. Quite simply, railguns are not a viable weapon for taking out individual marines, they're meant to kill tanks. The other choice for a Hammerhead is an ion cannon, which quite frankly is a waste of a perfectly good tank. Strength 6 AP 3 makes it look pretty good for killing marines on paper. Except its a maximum of 3 marines per turn, assuming no shots miss, assuming no 1's rolled to wound, assuming the marines aren't in cover, and assuming the Hammerhead survives the whole game.
Plasma rifles are better, but again can only be mounted on battlesuits. They're ap2 (not 1) and rapid fire, so given the chance they can make nice holes in a space marine squad. But again, the cheapest possible battlesuit with a single plasma rifle on it is 48 points (that's if you take a flamethrower as the other weapon, and a drone controller with no drones as the compulsory support system), so again, you're not going to be filling an army with them. Last I checked they're £10 a model, probably more by now, and frankly I don't have the cash to field that many battlesuits. Fusion blasters (AP1) have the same problem, except they have a much crappier range.
Rail-rifles look good on paper, but they're still being fired by pathfinders, which means a 10 point gun which is going to miss 50% of the time, and require you to take an 80 point (at least) Devilfish for the pleasure of the pathfinder's appearance.
The problem isn't a lack of AP, its a lack of <i>cheap</i> AP when facing an army of 3+ saves. This was pretty much remedied when the Vespid were released... except I hate the Vespid with a passion. They look ugly, their background is dumb, and did I mention they're ugly? Apparently only <i>they</i> can use neutron blasters because the frequency of their wing's vibrations modulate the power crystal's energy... or something like that. Now that sounds to me like something made up on the spot, and probably after a number of bong hits.
I've always been of the opinion that the reason 40k has become so unbalanced is the removal of save modifiers. Remember when a weapon used to be able to reduce a model's save based on its AP, rather than just determine whether you get a save at all?
Think of it this way. You have a 10 point gun which is AP 4, so a space marine will get his save against it. If that same gun was AP6 the marine would still get his save, but the gun would have to be cheaper for having less AP, thus the gun is more "efficient". The extra points you'd otherwise pay for the lower AP are essentially wasted. Tell me i'm wrong.
ShockehIf a packet drops on the web and nobody's near to see it...Join Date: 2002-11-19Member: 9336NS1 Playtester, Forum Moderators, Constellation
edited June 2007
No. Because you're right. AP is a much worse system than ASM was.
But you're still wrong about Tau, whilst Fireknives (Crisis with Plasma Rifle / Missile Pod / Multitracker) remain the most commonly spammed Battlesuit. They have one of the best point/return ratios in 40k against Power Armour, especially if you consider the synergy with Markerlights, their ability to stay alive by avoiding return fire and to Rapid Fire a squad down when absolutely necessary.
In short, people DO fill armies with them. 1 x 6 man Fire Warrior squad, small truck of Kroot, 3 Railheads, spam Fire Knives. That's the standard Tau army.
<!--quoteo(post=1632928:date=Jun 11 2007, 07:47 AM:name=Shockwave)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Shockwave @ Jun 11 2007, 07:47 AM) [snapback]1632928[/snapback]</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec--> In short, people DO fill armies with them. <!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Then those people suck.
<!--quoteo(post=1632928:date=Jun 11 2007, 07:47 AM:name=Shockwave)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Shockwave @ Jun 11 2007, 07:47 AM) [snapback]1632928[/snapback]</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec--> 1 x 6 man Fire Warrior squad, small truck of Kroot, 3 Railheads, spam Fire Knives. That's the standard Tau army. <!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
If that's the "standard" Tau army I can see where all the Tau hate is coming from.
As I mentioned before, I generally go for a fairly infantry-heavy Tau army unless i'm fighting Space Marines. Why? Because when preparing to fight a Tau army, most opponents will prepare themselves for what you mentioned; an army of battlesuits. They don't expect to see three 12-man squads of fire warriors, a 20-man squad of kroot, a 12-man squad of Gue'vesa and an armada of gun drones. Then top it off with a hammerhead and some kamikaze crisis suits with fusion blasters and missile pods to deep strike behind their tanks and wreak havok.
It occurs to me that under the old rules you also had to have at least a certain % of your army in troops choices didn't you? Surely just re-introducing that would save a lot of headaches? But I guess that would be too sensible and would be far too complicated for the kiddies they now market their products towards...
I havent played for years, yet i have a friends who complains that the rules have been dumbed down and made less colorful... mainly to the benefit of kids who just couldnt get thier heads around it before.
Yes, the rules were dumbed down, but it wasn't to make it easier for stupid people to understand, it was to speed things up, like getting rid of old plasma and vortex grenade rules, but a lot of it was spent trying to sort out the headache that was old melee. Now THAT was a confusing and very long winded system. Also the amount of time spent looking in the Dark Millenium rulebook for tables, which you rolled on for yet more tables etc, time spent in Psychic phase, and dear god, the Virus Outbreak strategy card against Orks or IG...
Comments
Though i dont play anymore... just font have time/money, i have mates who do. 2 of them are lame. one has a necron army, the other a tau. Basically they will play a number of games when they meet. My other mate uses guard and is the best out of them probably (I suck and have just about forgotten all the rules lol).
I used to use tyranids, but sold them. But any way the ######test thing ever was playing the tau army! one he went first and, through extraordinary luck, killed my carnifex before i did anything. though i managed to get into close combat with a few units, and slice them good, through his jumpiness/wtfzorz range he won.
As for the necron dude.... well neither of my 2 other friends usually agree to play him if he uses necrons (the army includes a monolith and a nightbringer LOL). Usually we would only play him if he had a cry.... yeah he used to cry over 40k <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/confused-fix.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid="???" border="0" alt="confused-fix.gif" /> .
This story's point is: Most people think necrons are crap, some people like tau.... but neither race imho dont really feel like they belong!
I hate how GW are just like "hey guys lets make a race for the kiddies to use and nerf the rules so they can actually feel like they are using tactics!"
Tau are pretty nice in DOW, but on table they have ALWAYS given me the ######. necrons are ###### in both.
<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
The problem isn't with the Tau or the Necrons, the problem is that 40k as a whole is horribly unbalanced. If you want deep strategy and tactics, go and play Warhammer fantasy, because the average game of 40k is decided before the armies even deploy. A balanced army will always lose to an army specifically designed to fight one opponent.
Its almost rock-paper-scissors-esqe. Tau, if played by a reasonably competant player, <i>are</i> pretty effective. This is probably because they were designed pretty recently (like the Necrons), and so they've got something to deal with every situation.... except heavy armour. Playing as Tau against marines before Vespid were introduced was a nightmare, the beardy command squad of doom with a Terminator Grand Master Lord High Champion (or whatever) and a million power weapons and invunerable saves would be the death of me every single time. Sure, you can load up on battlesuits, but they're not cheap, either in terms of points or cash.
Its not even a question of which army you pick; i'll give you an example from my most recent game. I was Tau, my opponent was Deamonhunters. He doesn't like Grey Knights, and so his army was mostly Stormtroopers, with an Inquisitor Lord, Demonhost and Assasin thrown in for good measure. I knew his army would be mostly stormtroopers, so I opted for an infantry-heavy army, lots of fire warriors, kroot, and some Gue'vesa, and only two battlesuits.
Quite simply, he didn't have a chance.
His stormtroopers were gunned down by my fire warriors and kroot, his chimera-mounted stormtroopers were obliterated by my tank, and the inquisitor lord's retinue were whittled down by drones and battlesuits until only the lord was left. The assasin actually managed to get into close combat and succesfully killed 16 kroot single handed before being gunned down by fire warriors, the Demonhost also got into hand to hand but was mobbed by gue'vesa and fire warriors, and the Inquisitor Lord charged and killed my commander. By the end of the game, she was all that was left of his army.
Quite simply his army wasn't set up to beat mine. His stormtroopers, afaik, cost more than my fire warriors, despite being slightly less effective in terms of shooting. He had no ranged firepower whatsoever, which gave my tank the whole game in which to blast chunks out of his Stormtroopers (against most opponents it doesn't last past turn 2). He also had nothing fast enough to stand a reasonable chance of getting into hand-to-hand except the assasin and demonhost.
Had he opted for a Grey-Knight heavy army, i'm pretty confident he would have slaughtered me.
My army was totally optimised to beat his, so much so that I feel a bit bad about it, as his army was chosen for its theme and feel, wheas mine was just chosen to beat his. You can do it with just about any army. I've been out-shot by Imperial Guard, out-manuvered by Eldar, and just bearded to death by what feels like every chapter of space marines in the book.
So I guess this is a very long winded way of saying: Don't hate the playa, hate the <i>game</i>.
Set up a tournament between friends, using the same army list against each opponent, and you'd have no choice but to use a balanced army. Unless you're like me, play Eldar, and ALL but one of your friends uses an army with 3+ save or better...
For example I am mostly using:
3 bikes
1 trike
4x8 tactical squads
1x5 terminators meele
1x5 terminators ranged
1x hq with commander, flag bearer and apothecarius
1 whirlwind
1 predaor annhilator
3 dreadnoughts
Thats basically my core army I am using when I dont know what I am up against. If I knew that my enemy would use a meele heavy ork army I would switch out the trikes and bikes for another whirlwind.
Against a ranged heavy tau army, with main focus on strong HQs I would add a landraider, scrap the termi ranged and stock up the termi meele. But as long as you dont know what your enemy is up with its is either:
Play or balanced army, or take a huge risk!
Especially when both sides are playing armies with only a "few" high cost units (tau vs SM) the terrain modifiers and also luck usually play a far greater role than in a battle of sheer numbers (orks vs tyrandis).
But yeah, you can definately too often judge the outcome of a game by looking at the army lists and the terrain <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/sad-fix.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":(" border="0" alt="sad-fix.gif" />
Its almost rock-paper-scissors-esqe. Tau, if played by a reasonably competant player, <i>are</i> pretty effective. This is probably because they were designed pretty recently (like the Necrons), and so they've got something to deal with every situation.... <b>except heavy armour</b>. Playing as Tau against marines before Vespid were introduced was a nightmare, the beardy command squad of doom with a Terminator Grand Master Lord High Champion (or whatever) and a million power weapons and invunerable saves would be the death of me every single time. Sure, you can load up on battlesuits, but they're not cheap, either in terms of points or cash.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
You know, I actually agreed with nil_IQ on most points, but this....
HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA. MUUUUAAAH HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAH.. HAHAHAHAHA... HEEE HEEE HEEE HEE HAHA HA HA HA *Aneurysm*
I'm sorry, what? The army with access to MORE AP1-3 than any other one in the <b><i>entire game</i></b> is complaining it lacks armour penetration? It must be <i>terrible</i> being able to have S10 AP1 on a model that doesn't even count as Large Infantry, I feel for you, really. The only armies that ever did it better was the Iron Warriors tournament army (being nerfed soon) and the Eldar starcannon spamfest on Guardians (which has already been nerfed). Please God, don't say it again, I might die from the laughter, that actually hurt!
And on the topic of HQ units like that. Two word spring to mind: 'non scoring'. Avoid them, laugh at their pitiful 6" move whilst you float around at 12" a turn through Battlesuit spam (and don't tell me you can't afford it, your opponent had enough points to buy them in the first place) and laugh as your S6 AP1 Plasma Rifles put neat holes in every Terminator. Taking Terminators against Tau = Fail. Hell, actually now I think about it, taking Terminators full stop = Fail.
@ Faskalia - Sadly, that concept doesn't tend to hold true at GT. GT army design is about taking the best point to return ratio, because at the end of the day you don't win based on how many models they kill, or how many you kill, but rather the VP's at the end. You want units that for whatever reason screws their ability to get scoring points (Landspeeder Squadrons ahoy!) and aren't easy to see off or get below half (Hello, Bike squadron) whilst simultaneously doing the same to your opponent. 'Balanced' forces just generally stop cutting the mustard at that point.
The 'Standard' Iron Warriors Chaos Spam:
Flying Chaos Lord 'o' Doom.
2 x 5 man Chaos Marine squads armed with fearsome bolters, and nothing else.
9 Obliterators
3 Defilers
Basilisk or Vindicator.
Add random other units for objective capping / whatever for giggles.
- Shockwave
@ Faskalia - Sadly, that concept doesn't tend to hold true at GT. GT army design is about taking the best point to return ratio, because at the end of the day you don't win based on how many models they kill, or how many you kill, but rather the VP's at the end. You want units that for whatever reason screws their ability to get scoring points (Landspeeder Squadrons ahoy!) and aren't easy to see off or get below half (Hello, Bike squadron) whilst simultaneously doing the same to your opponent. 'Balanced' forces just generally stop cutting the mustard at that point.
The 'Standard' Iron Warriors Chaos Spam:
Flying Chaos Lord 'o' Doom.
2 x 5 man Chaos Marine squads armed with fearsome bolters, and nothing else.
9 Obliterators
3 Defilers
Basilisk or Vindicator.
Add random other units for objective capping / whatever for giggles.
- Shockwave
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Sadly I dont play tourneys. I only battle people at my local GW for fun <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/tounge.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":p" border="0" alt="tounge.gif" />
Seriously. They're plastic miniatures. A tub of army men only costs about $5.00, why is about a third of the plastic from GW is almost 6 times as expensive? C'mon, guys.
(Also the reason my local gaming shop stopped carrying GW products.)
Because they can. Why charge less when you can charge more?
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Because it's downright not fair for us college students, that's why.
Because it's downright not fair for us college students, that's why.
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You tell that to GW, see if they can avoid laughing.
You tell that to GW, see if they can avoid laughing.
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Yeah, I know. Soulless corporations.
Ah well, at least they got some good books.
Man, I'd love to get into the Tabletop if it weren't so FREAKING EXPENSIVE.
Seriously. They're plastic miniatures. A tub of army men only costs about $5.00, why is about a third of the plastic from GW is almost 6 times as expensive? C'mon, guys.
(Also the reason my local gaming shop stopped carrying GW products.)
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Hmm well,
you can just buy a set of big bases and then just start playing. If you really want to play then there is no need to buy the figures. Or you could just use post-its as units. The reason why GW stuff is so expensive is that
a: They want to make money..
b: They really maintain and constantly improve their products.
But yeah, nothing you can't get around....
It's much more fun with miniatures though, and painted ones at that..
"Okay!"
"Now, the blue bases here are space marines and the red bases are veteran squads and this old milk carton is a Rhino and why are you leaving?"
"Let's play!"
"Okay!"
"Now, the blue bases here are space marines and the red bases are veteran squads and this old milk carton is a Rhino and why are you leaving?"
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"USE YOUR <i>IMAGINATION</i>!"
But never fear! Not all is lost! its called EBAY!! with a budget of 100 AUS$ (bout 80 US) i have a 1000ish point nid army... or u can use post-its and milk cartons <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/confused-fix.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid="???" border="0" alt="confused-fix.gif" />
Also, I have <a href="http://grimm.blackmage.org/misc/warhammer.jpg" target="_blank">proof!</a>
gotta agree with lolf there..<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
And you'd both be wrong. 'Veteran' gamers believe they spend more, but they don't. The main income spinner for GW has been, for a very long time, the constant stream of 10-14 year olds that then quit. Why? Because as new gamers, they never have any models. They make large initial purchases over their first few years of gaming, then grow out of it.
Veteran gamers by & large hang around the store, spend very little on a per year basis (maybe they do a new army every 18 months or so, otherwise they buy 'the odd model') whine about pretty much everything and particularily moan about rising prices. In short, GW would love to find a way to get rid of them.
This is with the background of 6 years in GW stores, including doing the figures for two stores for several years.
<!--QuoteBegin-"Faskalia+--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE("Faskalia)</div><div class='quotemain'><!--QuoteEBegin-->a: They want to make money..<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Yes.
<!--QuoteBegin-"Faskalia+--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE("Faskalia)</div><div class='quotemain'><!--QuoteEBegin-->b: They really maintain and constantly improve their products.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
And not really, relative to the amount of income these things make.
GW's biggest expenditure is the reason it's been successful - The stores. No other game company has their own dedicated stores, and this has shown as they're the only one still around. Unfortunately, the stores are awesomely inefficient in terms of cost/income ratio, but they keep the hobby alive by ensuring players can find other players, which keeps them in the game.
You know, I actually agreed with nil_IQ on most points, but this....
HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA. MUUUUAAAH HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAH.. HAHAHAHAHA... HEEE HEEE HEEE HEE HAHA HA HA HA *Aneurysm*
I'm sorry, what? The army with access to MORE AP1-3 than any other one in the <b><i>entire game</i></b> is complaining it lacks armour penetration? It must be <i>terrible</i> being able to have S10 AP1 on a model that doesn't even count as Large Infantry, I feel for you, really. The only armies that ever did it better was the Iron Warriors tournament army (being nerfed soon) and the Eldar starcannon spamfest on Guardians (which has already been nerfed). Please God, don't say it again, I might die from the laughter, that actually hurt!
<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
When I said "heavy armour" what I really meant was "power armour" than anything else.
Tau eat tanks for breakfast, I won't and wasn't trying to deny that.
Terminators arn't really a problem since being so expensive they're worth using railguns against.
The problem isn't a lack of AP 1-3, the problem is the relative cost and rarity of these. Railguns are great, but you can only take a few of them, and the units which can carry them are pretty expensive. The cheapest possible broadside battlesuit is 70 points not counting wargear. The cheapest possible Hammerhead with a railgun is 150 points, again with no upgrades. Quite simply, railguns are not a viable weapon for taking out individual marines, they're meant to kill tanks. The other choice for a Hammerhead is an ion cannon, which quite frankly is a waste of a perfectly good tank. Strength 6 AP 3 makes it look pretty good for killing marines on paper. Except its a maximum of 3 marines per turn, assuming no shots miss, assuming no 1's rolled to wound, assuming the marines aren't in cover, and assuming the Hammerhead survives the whole game.
Plasma rifles are better, but again can only be mounted on battlesuits. They're ap2 (not 1) and rapid fire, so given the chance they can make nice holes in a space marine squad. But again, the cheapest possible battlesuit with a single plasma rifle on it is 48 points (that's if you take a flamethrower as the other weapon, and a drone controller with no drones as the compulsory support system), so again, you're not going to be filling an army with them. Last I checked they're £10 a model, probably more by now, and frankly I don't have the cash to field that many battlesuits. Fusion blasters (AP1) have the same problem, except they have a much crappier range.
Rail-rifles look good on paper, but they're still being fired by pathfinders, which means a 10 point gun which is going to miss 50% of the time, and require you to take an 80 point (at least) Devilfish for the pleasure of the pathfinder's appearance.
The problem isn't a lack of AP, its a lack of <i>cheap</i> AP when facing an army of 3+ saves. This was pretty much remedied when the Vespid were released... except I hate the Vespid with a passion. They look ugly, their background is dumb, and did I mention they're ugly? Apparently only <i>they</i> can use neutron blasters because the frequency of their wing's vibrations modulate the power crystal's energy... or something like that. Now that sounds to me like something made up on the spot, and probably after a number of bong hits.
I've always been of the opinion that the reason 40k has become so unbalanced is the removal of save modifiers. Remember when a weapon used to be able to reduce a model's save based on its AP, rather than just determine whether you get a save at all?
Think of it this way. You have a 10 point gun which is AP 4, so a space marine will get his save against it. If that same gun was AP6 the marine would still get his save, but the gun would have to be cheaper for having less AP, thus the gun is more "efficient". The extra points you'd otherwise pay for the lower AP are essentially wasted. Tell me i'm wrong.
But you're still wrong about Tau, whilst Fireknives (Crisis with Plasma Rifle / Missile Pod / Multitracker) remain the most commonly spammed Battlesuit. They have one of the best point/return ratios in 40k against Power Armour, especially if you consider the synergy with Markerlights, their ability to stay alive by avoiding return fire and to Rapid Fire a squad down when absolutely necessary.
In short, people DO fill armies with them. 1 x 6 man Fire Warrior squad, small truck of Kroot, 3 Railheads, spam Fire Knives. That's the standard Tau army.
- Shockwave
In short, people DO fill armies with them.
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Then those people suck.
<!--quoteo(post=1632928:date=Jun 11 2007, 07:47 AM:name=Shockwave)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Shockwave @ Jun 11 2007, 07:47 AM) [snapback]1632928[/snapback]</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->
1 x 6 man Fire Warrior squad, small truck of Kroot, 3 Railheads, spam Fire Knives. That's the standard Tau army.
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If that's the "standard" Tau army I can see where all the Tau hate is coming from.
As I mentioned before, I generally go for a fairly infantry-heavy Tau army unless i'm fighting Space Marines. Why? Because when preparing to fight a Tau army, most opponents will prepare themselves for what you mentioned; an army of battlesuits. They don't expect to see three 12-man squads of fire warriors, a 20-man squad of kroot, a 12-man squad of Gue'vesa and an armada of gun drones. Then top it off with a hammerhead and some kamikaze crisis suits with fusion blasters and missile pods to deep strike behind their tanks and wreak havok.
It occurs to me that under the old rules you also had to have at least a certain % of your army in troops choices didn't you? Surely just re-introducing that would save a lot of headaches? But I guess that would be too sensible and would be far too complicated for the kiddies they now market their products towards...
Can you cuys enlighten me?
The Necrons are campy.
Let's just ignore those two and focus on the far superior races.