Quicksave in modern games.
I've been sort of getting into a lot of games lately, mostly playing through the early 2000's games I ignored cuz I've always been a multi-player gamer due to being terrified of AI (something I hope I get over during this single player interest). I've noticed, though, that Quicksave is a really easy to abuse system in games. It seems some games are designed around it, or feel like they are.
In a game like Thief, which I've (sort of but not really) been playing, due to the pace of the game going through a couple rooms can be a matter of quite a lot of time, so I'll often quicksave, even room-to-room, but it kind of removes some of the feeling of being a quick-witted thief and dulls the accomplishment of being a proper thief. But these kind of games feel like there's no way to escape if a guard or somebody spots you, which is a hard feeling to get over, thus perpetrating the over-use of quick save.
I also noticed this from a lot of people in Max Payne, because you could easily die if you tried to even enter a room, sometimes many times in a row, along with the fact that quite a few rooms seem to be set up just so enemies CAN do just that, gun you down instantly as you barge through a door. I can't count how many times I would dive into a room and die before I landed. Then I'd try to run in, and I'd get blasted. After another try or two, I could usually make it to cover.
I've always kind of preferred the checkpoint method. Maybe it's because I don't have the self-control for Quicksave, but it could be also that I kind of prefer the sense of better flow that checkpoints give. Being able to save as I go into a risky room in a stealth game makes me feel like less of an awesome spy or whatever. Quicksave seems to make games a lot easier (or less risky) than they would normally be, which could explain why so many prefer them over multiplayer games. I dunno, I've just noticed that smart use of Quicksave can turn a challenging situation into an easy game. Low HP from a previous firefight, and a room of enemies ahead? Quicksave, attempt it from several approaches until you clear the room and get your health pack or whatever.
Dunno, opinions. I'm new to singleplayer games. Haven't seriously played one since Tribes came out, save for a handful of PS2 games which don't have Quicksave. It also, however, ties into what caused my previous hatred of single-player games. You never really safe in them. The AI can appear from anywhere, and attack me anywhere, and no matter how spontaneous or random I am it always knows where I am, and will only stop chasing after a stupid and obscure set of situations and triggers are met. I can always confuse other players by being spontaneous and random, and shake or ambush them. Something about AI attacking me is a far scarier proposition than facing off against another player.
I'm also using this space to say how amazing a game Jet Grind Radio was and always will be, with a wonderful soundtrack and that everyone who values their gaming should all take an example from JGR if they get into game design. OK THEM?
In a game like Thief, which I've (sort of but not really) been playing, due to the pace of the game going through a couple rooms can be a matter of quite a lot of time, so I'll often quicksave, even room-to-room, but it kind of removes some of the feeling of being a quick-witted thief and dulls the accomplishment of being a proper thief. But these kind of games feel like there's no way to escape if a guard or somebody spots you, which is a hard feeling to get over, thus perpetrating the over-use of quick save.
I also noticed this from a lot of people in Max Payne, because you could easily die if you tried to even enter a room, sometimes many times in a row, along with the fact that quite a few rooms seem to be set up just so enemies CAN do just that, gun you down instantly as you barge through a door. I can't count how many times I would dive into a room and die before I landed. Then I'd try to run in, and I'd get blasted. After another try or two, I could usually make it to cover.
I've always kind of preferred the checkpoint method. Maybe it's because I don't have the self-control for Quicksave, but it could be also that I kind of prefer the sense of better flow that checkpoints give. Being able to save as I go into a risky room in a stealth game makes me feel like less of an awesome spy or whatever. Quicksave seems to make games a lot easier (or less risky) than they would normally be, which could explain why so many prefer them over multiplayer games. I dunno, I've just noticed that smart use of Quicksave can turn a challenging situation into an easy game. Low HP from a previous firefight, and a room of enemies ahead? Quicksave, attempt it from several approaches until you clear the room and get your health pack or whatever.
Dunno, opinions. I'm new to singleplayer games. Haven't seriously played one since Tribes came out, save for a handful of PS2 games which don't have Quicksave. It also, however, ties into what caused my previous hatred of single-player games. You never really safe in them. The AI can appear from anywhere, and attack me anywhere, and no matter how spontaneous or random I am it always knows where I am, and will only stop chasing after a stupid and obscure set of situations and triggers are met. I can always confuse other players by being spontaneous and random, and shake or ambush them. Something about AI attacking me is a far scarier proposition than facing off against another player.
I'm also using this space to say how amazing a game Jet Grind Radio was and always will be, with a wonderful soundtrack and that everyone who values their gaming should all take an example from JGR if they get into game design. OK THEM?
Comments
As for you feeling less awesome when you use quicksave all the time: well, it's the same thing with cheat codes. They're there if you want to use them but nobody forces you to. If you want a checkpoint system in your games, just quicksave during pauses in the action, when you find ammo/health caches or whatever. Bada-bing. Checkpoints.
Now that you're getting in to single player First Person Shooters, I've compiled a handy reference:
Half-Life and Half-Life 2
No Ones Lives Forever and No One Lives Forever 2
Elite Force and Elite Force II
Deus Ex and Deus Ex 2
Call of Duty and Call of Duty 2
Aliens vs. Predator and Aliens vs. Predator 2
Brothers in Arms: The Road to Hill 30 and Brothers in Arms: Earned in Blood
Dark Forces 2: Jedi Knight, Jedi Knight 2: Jedi Outcast, and Jedi Academy
Ghost Recon and Ghost Recon: Advanced Warfighter
Rainbow 6: Rogue Spear, Raven Shield, and Vegas
The Chronicles of Rid######: Escape from Butcher Bay
Far Cry
Mafia
F.E.A.R
Halo (haha just kidding)
Giants: Citizen Kabuto
SWAT 4
Tron 2.0
Vampire: The Masquerade - Bloodlines
Prey
System Shock 2
That should last you a little bit. There's more where that came from, too.
Giants: Citizen Kabuto
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<b>YES!</b>
As for quick saves?
I think that Tycho had it right in this line:
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If you want a checkpoint system in your games, just quicksave during pauses in the action, when you find ammo/health caches or whatever. Bada-bing. Checkpoints.
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I never quick save during a fight, but I tend to quick save multiple times when I am traveling between 2 fights. If I die, I don't really feel like walking the same stretch of corridor 20 times just b/c I suck at jumping puzzles (or Stealth Ninja BlackOps Babes are good at pwning my head).
The real interesting place to look at this is of course in emulation where you can save state and reload faster then... well, faster then something really fast. I tend to to save state constantly in these games except for a very specific few, and what I just realized is that those games tend to have a good check point system where after any good accomplishment you have a chance to save.
Increasing the challenge of a game does not increase the game quality, it just makes me put down the game before I've seen any of the story, and therefore I consider the game poor quality without seeing most of the content. Quicksave is great, it allows me to slowly trudge through the game virtually invincible to death or damage, rather then dying over and over and over again and having to run back through long segments of the game that I've already seen.
Elite Force II: I loved the "haunted ship" mission.
Beat Call of Duty when it first came out but it was too damn easy.
FEAR was pretty good, too, but the atmosphere kept me from playing it too much til I had to uninstall it for HD space. Dark, creepy places are daaaaaark.
I'm playing through AvP2, but the Predator campaign while awesome, is repetitive and tedious at times due to the healing/energy system. More time spent healing and recharging than hunting. I mostly play it because Yautja are my favourite part of the AvP "universe". Coolest alien race ever conceived.
Halo sucks ok.
I've "tried" quite a few on that list, but I have a terrible notoriety for playing an SP game an hour and a half, then never touching it again. No idea why.
The checkpoint idea is pretty good. I just always have this terrible paranoia things are going to come from all over completely out of nowhere and ###### me over. Probably from dealing with skulks in NS for so long.
I really, really wish I didn't procrastinate with games so much. I've been imagining all the awesome things in the Thief series but never seem to get around to starting Thief Gold back up.
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I never quick save during a fight, but I tend to quick save multiple times when I am traveling between 2 fights. If I die, I don't really feel like walking the same stretch of corridor 20 times just b/c I suck at jumping puzzles (or Stealth Ninja BlackOps Babes are good at pwning my head).
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That's kind of what I meant by quicksave abuse/whoring. It seems reflex now to simply save between every single fight, because something retarded can happen due to the AI have such an advantage over you.
I went ahead and strikethrough'd all of the games in Tycho's list that were designed around quicksaves. They're not necessarily bad games, but they are definitely weaker because of it. I also bolded any games which were designed specifically to get away from quicksave-itus. Games that I haven't played have been removed from the list. I did this because I can.
<strike>Half-Life</strike> and Half-Life 2
<strike>No Ones Lives Forever and No One Lives Forever 2</strike>
<strike>Elite Force and Elite Force II</strike>
Deus Ex and Deus Ex 2
<strike>Call of Duty</strike> and <b>Call of Duty 2</b>
Aliens vs. Predator
Dark Forces 2: Jedi Knight, <strike>Jedi Knight 2: Jedi Outcast, and Jedi Academy</strike>
The Chronicles of Rid######: Escape from Butcher Bay
<b>Far Cry</b>
<b>F.E.A.R</b>
<b>Halo</b>
<strike>Tron 2.0</strike>
<strike>Vampire: The Masquerade - Bloodlines</strike>
<b>Prey</b>
System Shock 2
As for Thief, recovering from your mistakes is half the game, and you're cheating yourself by not allowing yourself to experience it. I find that making a very clear set of rules works well. I do the levels ironman style - if I screw up, I deal with it, and if I die, I start over, but you don't have to be so hardcore. You could try only allotting yourself a certain amount of saves per level. It could be an arbitrary number, like, say, 5. Or it could be based on something ingame, like the number of objectives, for example (this has the advantage of scaling up for longer levels).
If you do this, there can be no fudging with the rules mid-game; no exceptions. Once you start making extra saves "just this once", the whole system breaks down. Of course, I wouldn't blame you if you saved every time you made a dangerous jump, but only because the mantling system is retarded.
This is my main complaint with quicksave. It's not so much that I can ###### it, but that some games force me to. Precognition is NOT a proper gameplay mechanic, and dealing with the evolution of a situation without dying instantly is what makes it fun and surprising.
That said, your game list is pretty quality. I should try Far Cry some day.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->As for Thief, recovering from your mistakes is half the game, and you're cheating yourself by not allowing yourself to experience it. I find that making a very clear set of rules for yourself works well. I do the levels ironman style - if I screw up, I deal with it, and if I die, I start over, but you don't have to be so hardcore. You could try only allotting yourself a certain amount of saves per level; it could be an arbitrary number, like, say, 5, or it could be based on something ingame, like the number of objectives, for example (this has the advantage of scaling up for longer levels).<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Yeah, it seems that playing Thief in the "adaptive rogue" style seems to be awesome, but I haven't played it enough to learn how to handle situations or escape from guards. I should, though. The games definitely seem worth it. It took me over an hour to complete the first mission due to some issues. I'm tempted to restart the game from the start (since I only got to the start of the Escape From Cragsworth Prison) with new knowledge of the game.
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Are there many spots to make awesome sneak-jumps in Thief?
Oh yeah, there are lots of places where jumping and climbing over things will give you an advantage. The problem is that mantling is very finicky. Half of the time, you will gracefully vault yourself over the edge, and the other half, you will plummet, hopefully not to your death.
I'm too unconfident in my sneaking ability to really explore the levels in Thief 1 to find cool stuff like the rafters I heard about in the first mission. The promise of undead all over makes me unexcited as well. Almost tempted to skip to Thief 2, but Thief 1 has a good story I heard.
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If you're having trouble with Thief 1, 2 will only frustrate you more. The guards seem to know where you are for a long time after they've lost their sight in 2. In 1, if a guard was chasing me, I could turn a corner and run into a dark room, and he would lose sight of me, letting me slip out easily while he stumbled around searching for me. In 2, he would just barrel right into the room and head straight for me. They also sort of screwed up the lighting in 2, so where in the original you could always tell how well you'd be hidden in a given area just by looking at it, you'd have to actually go to it and check your light gem to make sure in 2.
The undead can be intimidating, but you can sneak past them just like anything else, even if killing them isn't quite as easy. And besides, they're nowhere near as annoying as the robots in 2.
hl 1 is fun for oldschool kick..
You need to play Rise of the Triad! it's super de duper oldschool but hella fun
and Doom, as well as Doom3
oh you should also try wolfenstein 3d.
Duke Nukem is another winner as well
Sounds like you're just playing crappy games. I've never played a game in my entire life, so far as I can recall, where I needed to quicksave just to make it through or where levels were designed around my ability to quicksave every second or so.
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It's not so much a matter of NEEDING to quicksave as doing it in order to do everything immaculately. Emulators with their save states have probably ruined many games for me, in a way.
and Doom, as well as Doom3
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Play this last as it may impair your ability to want to play another FPS as it is one damn boring but pretty game.
And if you fail to beat the boss the first time you face it, your save game is erased. Automatically.
There's the quicksave-quickload-waltz were in order to beat something that is clearly above your skill level you save every 10 seconds and reload whenever something bad happens. This abillity removes the need for the game dev to balance their game to a reasonable extent as the player will merely cheat as much as needed to get around the obstacle.
There's the 'precognition' aspect: try something interesting without dealing with the consequences of your choice. This removes the need for the game dev to care about fleshing out bad consequences in an interesting manner because it most likely will be ignored by the player. One way of dealing with it is by having obscure consequences that the player isn't immidietly made aware of; this is very much hit and miss and tends to feel automagical and cheesy unless it makes sense.
It blurs the line against cheating, particularilly if there's no baseline amount of times the game requires you to save through checkpoints or start-of-level save; some people don't mind this, but us old school gamers enjoy the personal skill development aspect of games, it was once the primary aspect of the gaming experience due to 64K of RAM costing hundreds of dollars.
The most effective mode of playing is clearly to abuse quicksave. In far cry camping 2 kilometers away and taking everyone out one shot at a time was clearly the most effective method for large swaths of the game and there was no ammo constriction to prevent it. The problem with these situations is that the methods that allow you to complete the game at the highest difficulty setting you are able to are less exciting than declaring your taxes.
Some solutions I can think of is to constrict the number of quicksaves per level or to have quicksave for normal or lower difficulty settings only. This satisfies the new generation of gamers(tend to emphasize the interactive movie aspect of games and tend to be allergic to repetition) and the old generation(tend to emphasize learning, intelligence, repetition and motor skills. This came about naturally through hardware restrictions, in particular memory).
I also agree with Soylent. The main thing about checkpoints that I prefer over quicksave is that the developers know when a particularly tough section is coming up, and they can set a "if you fail, you end up set back here, but not too far back", where as if you feel unsafe with quicksave, you never really know if it's worth it or not to quicksave. Which leads to the quicksaving constantly thing. I actually move through games faster and with more confidence with checkpoints than I do with quicksave. There's no need to worry about "will I likely fail up here?", I just have to worry about pulling it off.
That said, I just wish I could get over my total lack of patience for singleplayer games. On PC games, I have a real tendency to get bored/fed up with the current gameplay and just quit, then either spend days making the effort up to go back in, or let it rot til I need HD space. Strangely, with console games I'm more detached and just plow through them with mindless zeal and no fear, ripping everything to pieces gleefully. A mouse makes it feel so personal. It's a shame, though, cuz I love singleplayer stories and the gameplay tends to be fun.
You know, there's a game called GORD@K where you're only allowed one save point through the entire game.
And if you fail to beat the boss the first time you face it, your save game is erased. Automatically.
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There are MMOs where players who kill you can take all your possessions and hide your body so well it's difficult for you to find it and respawn.
Diablo 2 had a hardcore mode that allowed you only one life; when you die you can no longer play your character.
One example in particular stood out. I come up on a camp, the game saves my progress. The camp has a couple of tents and three guard towers. Wise from previous encounters, I get my binoculars out and take a look at the towers. Sure enough, a sniper atop each. So I get my sniper rifle and kill them. I then proceed to stealthily creep from cover to cover throughout the camp, meticulously taking out all the soldiers. I keep thinking about the sniper ammo atop those three towers, but if there's still a guy standing around somewhere he'll start shooting at me, and I'll be climbing a ladder with no way to defend myself. So I make sure the camp is clear. I even sprint through it once just to see if someone spots me. Finally satisfied that I can safely get the sniper ammo, I scale the ladder to one of the towers - and am promptly deafened and blinded by a rocket to the temple. I'm on top of a rickety tower with nowhere to take cover, so my only defense is offense. I quickly scan for the attack, and finally spot him - a guy with a rocket launcher on one of the OTHER towers, invisible from the ground. That's all I get though, because at that moment the second rocket hits - not me, but the tower scaffolding behind me, blowing me to pieces. The last checkpoint was five minutes ago, outside the camp. Thanks.
Hitman 2 had an interesting spin on quicksaving. Well, there was no "quicksaving" per se (no one-button save), but you could save anywhere you liked, which was pretty unusual for a console game (and still is, I suppose). The game would save inbetween levels (or missions), but in addition to that you'd get a limited amount of saves per mission, depending on difficulty (seven on normal, I think). It forced you to conserve saves and only use them when you felt it was really worth it. A save was a commodity, to be cherished and only consumed reluctantly. A save really meant something.
By the way, we can't say "The Chronicles of Rid######" here. This is hilarious.
There are MMOs where players who kill you can take all your possessions and hide your body so well it's difficult for you to find it and respawn.
Diablo 2 had a hardcore mode that allowed you only one life; when you die you can no longer play your character.
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In MMOs like that though, ie: Ultima Online, armour and weapons and reagents are cheap/easy to get/unimportant.
One major problem with quicksaving is how it can (for me) be really, really immersion breaking.
Instead of thinking "oh I don't like this bit, it feels dangerous" it becomes "Oh I don't like this bit... ooh! quicksave! what was I doing again?"
I think quicksaves fall into that giant bin I call 'crutches for lazy developers" :p
(Escapist article on this subject that just came out)
Maybe that's part of the reason gamers like multiplayer so much these days. It offers a real challenge. I can't reload NS a few seconds to get out of an <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/tiny.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid="::onos::" border="0" alt="tiny.gif" /> stomach.
oh and "the chronicles of rid######" mwa ha ha i ###### love that ###### up retarded swear filter. we should make it earn its keep more often here on these boards!
######
Quick saving does kill some games, but only if you abuse it. Luckily for me, I would tend to forget to quick save so I'd play through for a couple hours without saving. But then when I died, the Auto-saves weren't in the best spots so I'd tend to quick save a lot before forgetting. Maybe they should have a quick save limit to games, as to how many you get between check points, so you'd have to be strategic with them.
In what way? The ambient sound in Thief is always kinda spooky; what you're hearing probably isn't the house but the 'music' of the game.
Wait until you reach mission 5 (or 6 if you are playing the Gold version of Thief), then you will have to sneak though Lord Constantine's mansion.
And it's really <i>weird</i>.
In what way? The ambient sound in Thief is always kinda spooky; what you're hearing probably isn't the house but the 'music' of the game.
Wait until you reach mission 5 (or 6 if you are playing the Gold version of Thief), then you will have to sneak though Lord Constantine's mansion.
And it's really <i>weird</i>.
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There's all sorts of weird shrieking sounds and creepy ###### that puts me on edge even though I know it's fully inhabited by humans. I love this game, but I need to get better at sneaking with expediency. I prefer to try and ghost these kinds of games, but it seems I may have to get my blackjack out for Thief. That said, I started over again and took a quick jaunt through part of Bafford's mansion avoiding quicksave. Made it a lot fun and faster feeling. Somewhat dynamic stealth gameplay is pure win.
ANother game that handles quicksaving quite well is Elder Scrolls: Oblivion. I allows you to quicksave anywhere and anytime you want, BUT, only when you're not in combat or there's no enemies nearby. Now, this is still abusable, as you can go into a dungeon, kill 2 or 3 people in a room, make sure noboby else is there, and then run back to the beginning of the dungeon and Wait. But it still takes care of the problem of someone saving between every single blow. You only get to Wait after you've cleared out a room, so some continuous aciton is still going on, even if you take a break between every single room.
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I would much prefer getting the chance to save only when sleeping in a real bed(i.e. not while waiting). And I much prefer mods that disable fast travel; though I would like some means of fast ingame travel(e.g. ferry along a river or some kind of zeppelin/flying creature between some of the major cities).