relocating base at beginning of game

AliteAlite Members, Reinforced - Shadow Join Date: 2007-03-02 Member: 60188Posts: 76 Fully active user
I'm a pretty good comm and i win most of the games I comm(even though i started like 4 months ago). I just dont have lots of experience in comming. All i would like to know is if its a good idea to relocate ure base at the very beginning of the game for any reason: ex: there r two rts at a location on the map and u decide to relocate there.

Ill be thankful for any advice i can get.

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Comments

  • ChocolateChocolate The Team Mascot Members Join Date: 2006-10-31 Member: 58123Posts: 404
    edited April 2007
    Personally, I don't think relocation is a big need and is a risky move. You can do just fine with phase gates, assuming that your marines actually listen to orders and can aim at a skulk. Its risky because you need to send all your marines to location A, get ips etc before you take too many losses while making sure your base doesn't get destroyed (no beacon).

    I also don't find that relocation helps all that much really. Most maps (I assume from experience) are built so the aliens have an advantages on their side, and vise versa. Since aliens are faster and can get through vents easier, they're would most likely be more vents at a relocation spot, more exposed to aliens and more distant on foot between RT's.

    There are some great advantages in location when you relocate however, like T-Junction on Eclipse. That one I find is a little too powerful (we were way out teched and equal skilled as marines and we won somehow), but it gives you a great advantage.

    Basically what I'm trying to say is that its all up to you, whether or not you relocated depends solely on you. If one spot you find is good, go for it, just not every time (it gets boring after awhile).

    Anyway, that was a nice long, unreread ramble tounge.gif.

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  • the_x5the_x5 the Xzianthian Members, Constellation Join Date: 2004-03-02 Member: 27041Posts: 3,175
    edited July 2007
    It's a risky move only because people don't practice doing it! smile-fix.gif

    Everybody has experience with a Marine Start base, but not many commanders can actively select a new base location on the fly and have a team competent enough to work together and actually aim.

    A creative, strategically well placed relocated base can have huge pay offs. Often time I see games where were alien stacked and the relocation alone made it a much more balanced and longer lasting battle, not to mention more interesting. In public play a relocation it a psychological break in the ususal monotony of a MS base and actually makes your average player work more with the team. And perhaps most important: a good relocation that locks down a chokepoint or hive can really screw aliens over throughout the game. Just be aware that beacon will NOT take you to your base without a PG in Marine Start and a PG in your relocated base.

    Tips for relocation:
    • Recycle your Marine Start command chair, you can kill yourself one the first IP is built and have a teammate do this recycle
    • Don't waste resources until you have your new base going
    • If on a large server, you can have some small squads serve as distractions or resource grabbers en route to the relocation
    • Results are best if you can have an area you can control and easily access multiple resource tower nodes and or hive
    • Try to build in a choke point, but don't forget to use mines and/or turrets to keep away skulks and lerks.
    • Avoid the high traffic areas of the alien team, drop base where they are not. This is important!
    • Avoid an area that's too far out of the way to grab RTs, this is why relocating into some hives can be a poor choice
    • Not as important, but if you can avoid places where you are in the far back of a room with only one walkable entrance (don't count vents)
    • Can serve as a backup plan to an early game hive rush, as long as you have enough resources
    • Don't leave your base undefended forever, alien teams generally seem to do a better job at trying to rush your base together instead of one at a time in games with marine relocations
    • Try having a "base monkey", some guy who listens well and guards your base and PG's while building stuff so the rest of your team can be always on the offensive
    Here's some examples:

    Map: ns_altair

    Station Monitoring Main -- MS is actually very poor for defense since it is so open and long. This relocation may be hard but is highly rewarding when used on large public servers where your marines fan out in large numbers from the central area of the map. Both Omega and Consistency Hive locations are fairly close but more importantly this is an easy to defend base location when you set it up like this and thus easy too resist that early base rush any alien team with a few competent players is going to try. And when you repel that attack you have easy access to numerous RTs in Station Monitoring Power, Station Monitoring Annex, Sub Bay, and with a little more walking or a mine step-ladder, Consistency Hive RT. Like in chess, control the center of the board for the game and you'll win most of the time.


    Map: ns_ayumi

    North-West Turn -- in the area between Pressure Control Hive and Information Bank to be specific. You grab the Server Outlet RT on the way, then the seond one and drop the comm chair next to it. You drop IPs also next to the RT and eventually electrify the RT for an effective defense. You can easily keep seige control over the hive area, hold two resources nodes and have easy access to Cold Turn RT and Hamaski Hive and RT. Then build a PG link between cold turn and your base. Beacon at some point and grab back MS and powerbuild a PG link there too. If you are successful you will have control over a hive and at least 2-3 RTs. Examine the pictures below.

    Map: ns_eclipse

    T-Junction -- drop the RT and build your base in that long hallway, It gives you seige control over South Loop and easy access to both Maintenance and Computer Core. However do not choose this relocation if their hive is Maintenance, or several skulks are going to Horseshoe to cut you off. If they have maintance, SAA or Triad are great relocation spots too. And by Triad I mean up on the high-ground looking down at the Triad RT, NOT down in the "pit". It's hard to defend against lerks and fades down in there.

    Map: ns_nothing

    #1 Generator -- a well known choke point and gives you great access as well has the high ground on the north entrance. It's a medium sized room with a special balcony you can build a mine ladder up to, only two entrances and give you a RT as well as seige control over two other RTs. I've won several games by relocation to this area. To achive victory, try to lock down the two RTs by Cargo Hive for resources and hive control, but to do all this you MUST HOLD the chokepoint which is between these four areas: Quad Lift, Intimidation, Miasma, and Painted Corridor. Look on you map and you see the area I'm talking about, it's by that vent which run from MS. If you lock that down with troops, turrets, mines, or any or all of those you will crush their team. It is not easy, but it is fun for both teams actually albeit a bit frustrating for the alien team leadership.

    #2 Between Cargo Hive and Ventilation -- You can control a hive and two RTs obviously, but it can be hard to move out. I didn't rate this one as high because it takes phase tech early on, hand grenades preferably, and a marine team that actually listens and moves together to win.

    Map: ns_tanith

    Cargo outside Fusion Hive -- It's really hard to get a base started in there, but IF you can it's hard to loose. You not only control 2 RTs, a Hive, and a critical chokepoint, but you also have easy access to the Chemical & Acid "Double" RTs, and the the more well-known Reactor Room which is what is usually refered to as "Double".

    Chemical Transport -- Controls access to Sat Comm Hive, 2 RTs (acidic being the other) and has easy access to both Cargo and vent access to Reactor Room. This is an EASY place to relocate to if their hive is Waste. Try it sometime in an actual game, just make sure you have you mic on to communicate to your team.

    Reactor Room -- If it wasn't as hard to defend it'd actually make a better base, but of course the more RTs the better and there you have two within plain sight of one another. I do suggest welding weldables shut ASAP. (and a welder only costs 5 res an a little labor-time of welding) The problem is that most teams go every-which-way when the base is double and aliens love to cap the rest of the map when marines are there. You also only have one choice, you must lockdown the Storage Entrance choke point.

    Map: ns_veil

    #1 Between C-12 and Pipeline Hive -- If they have Sub-Sector tell your ENTIRE team to rush southeast. Have one marine hold back to grab RTs on the way but the rest must NOT stop. Lock this area down. The sack cargo from dome or screw the gorges in double. Moving fast in large numbers is key. It's easy to move out fast on the eastern side of this map. Research cat packs first! Unless they have SC, just get weapons upgrades fast. If they are packing SC, get MT and armor upgrades, up to HA. But as far as strategy... Try to nail Cargo Hive from dome while denying double, this is the breaking point. Once you control Cargo Hive, equip HA with weapons as best you can (no HA, just drop weapons, a few mines and welders too) and beacon when you have the aliens mostly on the western side of the map. Do a southwest HA train rush to the hive. This is highly effective at this point because your team just did this same kind of manuver at the beginning of the game, but now they have big guns and armor while aliens are already worried. I usually see aliens take the beacon as a cue to abandon Sub-Sector and grab double, move towards your base, and/or Cargo. This is a bad idea. They want a hive bad, and actually often will drop one but your cat pack powered HA train will plow down the western side of the map and smash their hive location. Once it's down you just mop up the survivors in a brutal fashion. You can put your base either in C-12 or Power as the screen shot below signifies.
    IPB Image
    Note: You have an easy 90 degree coverage of all the key structures, AA in center with hidden mines, PG could be anywhere near IPs really. But the placement of the structures in the window and AA in the middle is key to an easy defense.

    #2 Sub-sector Hive -- it may at first seem out of the way, but it's extremely defendable. If you prefer a more defensive style this is your ideal base. You can't be all defense or you'll loose, so make this a launching platform for assaults. Work a western control to outer rim control pattern. Ignore double except to deny the aliens it if you get the opportunity. That means grab Overlook, West, MS, Topo, and as far around as you can get before aliens rape that RT capping squad. Then rush for a Prototype Lab and get either HA or JP. There are so many factors for that decision. But your next step after you get HA or JP is to push the fades back with HMGs then get a marine who is really good with the GL to be artillery. The rest of the team MUST protect the artillery. Assault a hive. Attack cargo or ninja pipeline.
    IPB Image
    Note: See how the base is built in symmetrical levels of lines of defense? What you can't see are the clever mines protecting the AA and IPs. Electrification is ideal and very useful, but do what you can with what you got.

    #3 Overlook -- An easy way to hold an RT and deny a hive location while giving access to double. If you are one of those commanders who loves double and for some reason feels the need to keep capping it on this map consider relocation here. Get a PG link up between double and here for success. Work a western & central control of the map. Ninja action will be key. Just keep on your toes, a smart alien team will pick your RTs off with bile bomb as soon as they can.
    IPB Image
    Note: See the mines by the vent? That's critical to good defense. It's also easy to do with no boosting needed, just aim.

    PS for ns_veil: Double usually sucks as a relocation against anything but bots. Sorry, but it's true. Don't let greed for resources fool you. It's easy for everybody to get to double. You'll simply be outnumbered and mauled by a competent alien team (ie: lerk gas and/or fades), plus you can seige it from the west or east at any time, you just have to act fast. It's easy to deny, nearly impossible to hold. If you want double, weld the vents shut first.

    There are many, many others and I have a lot of experience with them. Just tell me a NS map and I'll give you it's best relocation spots with as much detail in tips as you want.
    Post edited by Unknown User on
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  • PorcepicPorcepic Members Join Date: 2007-02-21 Member: 60042Posts: 39
    Thank you the_x5, very nice work ! smile-fix.gif


    I remember a round on ns_veil... The hive was Pipeline and I made a reloc between C-12 and the hive. Then we covered the cargo's side to avoid aliens to go there and we siege the hive. This game was so funny... for the marines !
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  • the_x5the_x5 the Xzianthian Members, Constellation Join Date: 2004-03-02 Member: 27041Posts: 3,175
    edited April 2007
    You're welcome Porcepic! smile-fix.gif I added notes for ns_veil.

    Any other requests? Anything more specific?
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  • puzlpuzl The Old Firm Retired Developer, NS1 Playtester, Forum Moderators, Constellation Join Date: 2003-02-26 Member: 14029Posts: 4,112 mod
    Relocating is generally a tradeoff between securing some strategic location ( for res, choke point, easier access to hives ) for a delay in early tech. If you spend money on a new CC, then you are delaying one or more of RTs, Armslab or Obs. Which of these you choose to postpone is up to you, but it will come back to bite and you need to ensure that the advantage you gain from relocating compensates for it.

    Also, relocating exposes you to skulk rushes in the early game. The delay in building the first IP can really cripple you if you lose 2-3 marines trying to get your basic equipment into the field. Once the spawn queue fills up, the skulks can tear your relocated base apart with only a little coordination purely by strength of numbers.

    It is usually safer to go for the early tech IMO.
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  • the_x5the_x5 the Xzianthian Members, Constellation Join Date: 2004-03-02 Member: 27041Posts: 3,175
    If you always play it safe your strategies are limited it gets boring and repetive. If you never take risks in so called "real life" you won't get anywhere either.

    As I said earlier, it's about practice.
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  • ChocolateChocolate The Team Mascot Members Join Date: 2006-10-31 Member: 58123Posts: 404
    edited April 2007
    Wow X5, I'm impressed at your first post here! (I wish I could write so well sad-fix.gif).

    I personally choose not to relocate because I'm not very good at commanding and I find (atleast on the servers I play on) that marines can folow your orders and phase when you scream "PHASE!" into the mic. But seeing that Alite knows how to comm, I would say to give it a shot.

    Just remember to pick a spot that is big enough for a whole base (so dont relocate in a narrow corridor) and is not too alien sided (A room with 3 vent entrances is a very bad idea). Also, some people say that relocating to a double res node on the map is one of the best relocations, but on most maps it isnt the best idea. As X5 said before, veil is a bad idea because the other nodes are out of the way.

    Most mappers folow this rule of thumb I read somewhere:
    QUOTE
    If you have a double resource nozzel location, push the other resource nodes farther away from that location


    Er.. another ramble...

    PS. I think I might have a good relocation spot for veil, Dome. This location is good because it denies the aliens 2 hives and it's within siege distance of both those hives. The alien team has to have Subsector hive or it would be hard to defend. Your also within walking distance of 3 nodes, C-12, Pipeline and Cargo. Maybe X5 or someone else can confirm this, I've never tried it myself.
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  • KainTSAKainTSA Members, Constellation Join Date: 2005-05-30 Member: 52831Posts: 315
    edited April 2007
    Relocating certainly adds some variety to games, even if it doesn't always work. My personal favorite reloc. is chem trans. The key to a relocation is to be right outside a hive, not in one. This way you essentially have the hive locked, but your base is closer to the front line.

    Most amusing reloc I've done is cargo...when alien hive was fusion. The whole team listened, went there and got a base up. I threw down a TF, some turrets, waited a minute and got seige up. GG.
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  • CLARK_KENTCLARK_KENT Vancouver, CanadaMembers, Reinforced - Silver Join Date: 2002-11-21 Member: 9508Posts: 100 Fully active user
    edited April 2007
    Relos rarely work (assuming a decently competent alien team with a decent fade -- and I make a distinction here between a highly skilled team and a pro fade) in a game where the marines and aliens are equally skilled (or the aliens are skill stacked)... specifically, marines skill =< alien skill.

    As Puzl said, the cost is a delay in the tech tree upgrade. In my opinion, it is not worth it.

    By the time you finish base (if you even manage to finish base), you'll be around the 2 minute mark. You'll have also delayed getting one or two RTs, likey the result of being busy base building, defending base from rushes (ex. meds for sporing, and mines for defence), and what have you. Cash flow is king, in both NS and in real life businesses.

    By the time you have Armor 1, it will be closer to 3 or 4 minutes with the extra captial expenditure of a relo as well as the slower growth of cash flow.

    In the meantime, aliens should already have good cash flow coming in with about 3 rts, not to mention all the RFK from either rushes or spore kills. You should see a fade by around 4-5 minutes.

    At most, by the time the fade comes out, the marines wil have Armor 1 and Wepons 1. Weps 1 only tickle, and a decent fade will tear through the "weak" Armor 1.

    Also, the hive, since the primary focus of the marines in the early game was to base build rather than put pressure on hive or alien RTs, is on its way to being built. It should finish around the 6 minute mark, and at that point, the marine late tech'ing is going to really bite you in the bum.

    If the relos worked, then it means you managed to last the game enough to the point where you can really take advantage of the increased res/map control from the relo (i.e. managed to hold off 3rd hive as well as managed to get HA or JP), OR, the marines had a skill stack (marines skill > alien skill).

    So, think of it as an odds game. You have greater odds (and thus, increased margin for error) by not relocating. Think of it as playing poker. Certain cards give you greater odds of winning (pairs or AK in the hole). You might not always win, but you'll win more often than not. Those who play a lot of poker know that a pair of Aces won't always win, but most would bet them hard any day (can you say, "All in!" smile-fix.gif ).

    If you really feel you want/need that map control that a relo can possibly give, consider tech'ing PGs early. It has more options: possible hive rush, can get you and/or place pressures in different areas of the map, the use of beacon (as in a alien base rush), and a scan of an area that your marines are entering or building (as in ambush points).

    So in short, please don't relo, unless marine skill > alien skill. It was feasible in earlier versions, but not in the latest versions of NS. My opinion anyways. smile-fix.gif
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  • the_x5the_x5 the Xzianthian Members, Constellation Join Date: 2004-03-02 Member: 27041Posts: 3,175
    edited April 2007
    QUOTE(Chocolate @ Apr 20 2007, 03:33 PM) »

    Wow X5, I'm impressed at your first post here! (I wish I could write so well sad-fix.gif).
    PS. I think I might have a good relocation spot for veil, Dome. This location is good because it denies the aliens 2 hives and it's within siege distance of both those hives. The alien team has to have Subsector hive or it would be hard to defend. Your also within walking distance of 3 nodes, C-12, Pipeline and Cargo. Maybe X5 or someone else can confirm this, I've never tried it myself.


    Gladly Chocolate. Dome is a great spot to hold and lockdown, but not a good place for a base. Why? You have a vent lerks can easily gas you for one, but more importantly you are a decent distance and as such travel time away from resource towers. It's harder to control resources like that. Phasegate are 15 res and having to many will be costly when you need to quickly respond to a ninja assualt gone bad. I see that flaw all too often where commanders drop too many PGs or are wasting res on that for something more useful.

    QUOTE(KainTSA @ Apr 20 2007, 03:42 PM) »

    Relocating certainly adds some variety to games, even if it doesn't always work. My personal favorite reloc. is chem trans. The key to a relocation is to be right outside a hive, not in one. This way you essentially have the hive locked, but your base is closer to the front line.

    Most amusing reloc I've done is cargo...when alien hive was fusion. The whole team listened, went there and got a base up. I threw down a TF, some turrets, waited a minute and got seige up. GG.


    I believe I already listed that relocation. Both of them. smile-fix.gif

    QUOTE(Furious_Gorge @ Apr 20 2007, 04:32 PM) »

    By the time you finish base (if you even manage to finish base), you'll be around the 2 minute mark. You'll have also delayed getting one or two RTs, likey the result of being busy base building, defending base from rushes (ex. meds for sporing, and mines for defence), and what have you. Cash flow is king, in both NS and in real life businesses.

    [...]

    So, think of it as an odds game. You have greater odds (and thus, increased margin for error) by not relocating. Think of it as playing poker. Certain cards give you greater odds of winning (pairs or AK in the hole). You might not always win, but you'll win more often than not. Those who play a lot of poker know that a pair of Aces won't always win, but most would bet them hard any day (can you say, "All in!" smile-fix.gif ).


    Revenue is king but so is labor-time. You can spend less time walking to objectives, you can control critical objectives, you can build a sense of "team" early on, etc.

    It may not always work then the alien team has fantastic communication and responds quickly and in numbers. But then that simply means the aliens had better teamwork, not that relocation is a bad idea. It also can throw aliens off since they are experienced in handling a MS base.

    It is a gamble yes, but the pay offs are well worth it, especially on a public server where the aliens lack the high level of coordination and communication to counter a relocation at the start. Again this will be subjective and dependent on many, many other teamplay, luck, skill, communication, etc. factors.

    Don't judge an unpracticed strategy base solely on it's success rate.

    I know this one Brit who goes by the name GMC [UK] if you get him, me, and a team of players who are great listeners (don't even have to have perfect skills as long as they can listen first) we will usually win off a relocate. GMC [UK] is perhaps the expert on relocations. Some of his relocations are too crazy tounge.gif , but my point is that since we are practiced with it and the aliens are only practiced with MS bases we can make any game a close one. Victory or not.

    And in the end? People remember fun games that break the mold. Try taking a gamble on something new, you might like it. If it's a casual game, what do you have to loose? Really?


    ~edit~


    I'm adding example pictures. Keep in mind that when you start the base it won't have all this stuff; I'm showing placement of structures.
    Post edited by Unknown User on
    Coined the qualitative attribute entropy in reference to game maps.
    Do not eat the dark energy balls, please.
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  • AliteAlite Members, Reinforced - Shadow Join Date: 2007-03-02 Member: 60188Posts: 76 Fully active user
    Thanks alot guys. I think that what u guys wrote will help me consider the advantages and the inconvenients of relocating. I really appreciate the reloc srategies u gave me for maps the x5.

    Anyways thanks alot for everything u wrote guys. ill be using the tips when i comm.


    Thanks biggrin-fix.gif
  • puzlpuzl The Old Firm Retired Developer, NS1 Playtester, Forum Moderators, Constellation Join Date: 2003-02-26 Member: 14029Posts: 4,112 mod
    edited April 2007
    QUOTE(the_x5 @ Apr 19 2007, 11:36 AM) »

    If you always play it safe your strategies are limited it gets boring and repetive. If you never take risks in so called "real life" you won't get anywhere either.

    As I said earlier, it's about practice.


    I'm not saying that you should never relocate, but pointing out that it is critical to secure an advantage that compensates for the delay in teching.
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  • DC_DarklingDC_Darkling Members, Constellation, Squad Five Blue, Squad Five Silver Join Date: 2003-07-10 Member: 18068Posts: 4,381 Advanced user
    Its difficult yes, but can be quite powerfull. Once moved my butt to acidic. It was pure gold. Inrange of 2 hives and a good bunch of rts. Combined with hallways to camp.
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  • Rapier7Rapier7 Members Join Date: 2004-02-05 Member: 26108Posts: 1,216 Fully active user
    Relocating is never worth it. It only succeeds when the alien team is nub.

    Over half the games are marine stacked anyways, if you think you're a good comm and you play on a pub, chances are you suck ######.
    RAHHH!!! BUFF SKULKS!
  • ChocolateChocolate The Team Mascot Members Join Date: 2006-10-31 Member: 58123Posts: 404
    QUOTE(the_x5 @ Apr 20 2007, 05:25 PM) »
    Gladly Chocolate. Dome is a great spot to hold and lockdown, but not a good place for a base. Why? You have a vent lerks can easily gas you for one, but more importantly you are a decent distance and as such travel time away from resource towers. It's harder to control resources like that. Phasegate are 15 res and having to many will be costly when you need to quickly respond to a ninja assualt gone bad. I see that flaw all too often where commanders drop too many PGs or are wasting res on that for something more useful.

    True, I hadent thought of that, but I just figured that its a few meters from a siege of any two hives, so it essentially cuts off the alien tech, so its easier to control nodes, especially with jps. Meh, just ideas.
    On a side note, when I was alien I put ocs in dome and the marines had a ridiculously hard time getting to cargo (and pipe too). My team was busy on the other side of the map, so it made it easier to win.

    QUOTE(the_x5 @ Apr 20 2007, 05:25 PM) »

    Revenue is king but so is labor-time. You can spend less time walking to objectives, you can control critical objectives, you can build a sense of "team" early on, etc.

    [...]

    Don't judge an unpracticed strategy base solely on it's success rate.

    Thumbs up, agreed biggrin-fix.gif

    QUOTE(Rapier7 @ Apr 21 2007, 12:00 PM) »
    Relocating is never worth it. It only succeeds when the alien team is nub.

    Over half the games are marine stacked anyways, if you think you're a good comm and you play on a pub, chances are you suck ######.

    Well, if the alien team is stacked, its GG either way. If it is equal skilled, then your point becomes less correct. It really depends on where you relocate, if you relocate in cargo and hive is fusion, chances are its not going to turn out the best for your team.

    If you relocate to... chem transport then things might turn out better. If you can get your whole team there, they can easily take out any skulk that comes in. Remember that marines in large groups are greater than aliens in small groups. And chances are the aliens wont swarm in all at once.

    Once you get your base up, your a stones throw away from 2 rts and a little ways off from another 3 (MS and double). You also have a easy time defending off the 3ed hive and a much easier time getting to cargo, which is the most marine sided room in the map and the most critical rooms in the map.

    QUOTE(the_x5 @ Apr 20 2007, 05:25 PM) »

    I know this one Brit who goes by the name GMC [UK] if you get him, me, and a team of players who are great listeners (don't even have to have perfect skills as long as they can listen first) we will usually win off a relocate. GMC [UK] is perhaps the expert on relocations. Some of his relocations are too crazy , but my point is that since we are practiced with it and the aliens are only practiced with MS bases we can make any game a close one. Victory or not.

    Heh, I remember GMC [UK], I played with him when I used to play on bot servers about 1/2 a year ago. (yeah I used to play on bot servers ). He was cool.
    QUOTE
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  • CLARK_KENTCLARK_KENT Vancouver, CanadaMembers, Reinforced - Silver Join Date: 2002-11-21 Member: 9508Posts: 100 Fully active user
    QUOTE(the_x5 @ Apr 20 2007, 02:25 PM) »
    I know this one Brit who goes by the name GMC [UK] if you get him, me, and a team of players who are great listeners (don't even have to have perfect skills as long as they can listen first) we will usually win off a relocate. GMC [UK] is perhaps the expert on relocations. Some of his relocations are too crazy tounge.gif , but my point is that since we are practiced with it and the aliens are only practiced with MS bases we can make any game a close one. Victory or not.


    I could say also that if you get Jamon (or any other good fade), me, and a team of alien players who are great listeners (such that we match the skill level of the marines), we will usually win off a marine relocate. What I'm doing here is matching your team's skill with my own team of relatively equal skill. smile-fix.gif

    Point is, we must factor in skill levels/disparity. If marine skill less than or equal to aliens, relos will rarely win.

    QUOTE(Rapier7 @ Apr 21 2007, 09:00 AM) »

    Relocating is never worth it. It only succeeds when the alien team is nub.


    Now, if marine skill is greater than aliens, then yes, relos will likely win. But then again, almost any strategy would probably win against a marine skill stack/weak alien team.

    In any case, what are people's general feelings towards early OCs, say as cut-offs at key points (ex. choke points), prior to any res and chamber drops? Because it's sort of the same concept -- delayed upgrades and cash flow.

    I do understand the need to "break the mold" for the sake of fun. Relos were done all the time in NS 2.x because it was quite feasible then... and indeed, I found them quite fun. But in 3.x, it's not as feasible because a lot depends on the early game and the upgrades... and I think it's more fun to win more times than not. wink-fix.gif And like my poker analogy, pocket Aces (compares to a "safe" strategy such as teching up and getting early PGs) will win most of the time, but again, there are the few rare times that someone holding on for the river (compares to a relo) to make their straight of flush might take it and beat the pair Aces. smile-fix.gif

    And perhaps relos and early OC drops remain "unpracticed" because people have generally found them *not* to work more times than not. wink-fix.gif
    Known Aliases in NS1 and NS2: Furious Gorge aka 9, 1001, 234, NSPlayer, CAPS LOCK, CLARK KENT
  • the_x5the_x5 the Xzianthian Members, Constellation Join Date: 2004-03-02 Member: 27041Posts: 3,175
    I can sort of agree with the less than / greater than skill stuff to a point, BUT...
    • It's not that black and white
    • It's not the "or equal to" part. Again, it's a matter of practice and good location choice.
    Coined the qualitative attribute entropy in reference to game maps.
    Do not eat the dark energy balls, please.
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  • MrMakaveliMrMakaveli Members Join Date: 2004-05-06 Member: 28509Posts: 216
    edited April 2007
    QUOTE(Rapier7 @ Apr 21 2007, 11:00 AM) »

    Relocating is never worth it. It only succeeds when the alien team is nub.

    Over half the games are marine stacked anyways, if you think you're a good comm and you play on a pub, chances are you suck ######.


    Ok you need to chill out. All you ever do is comm on pubs and you're not very good at it either.
  • FaskaliaFaskalia Wechsellichtzeichenanlage Members, Constellation Join Date: 2004-09-12 Member: 31651Posts: 2,405
    QUOTE(Rapier7 @ Apr 21 2007, 06:00 PM) »

    Relocating is never worth it. It only succeeds when the alien team is nub.

    Over half the games are marine stacked anyways, if you think you're a good comm and you play on a pub, chances are you suck ######.


    Why is every strategy thread bound to have at least one:

    "You only win with this if the other team sucks" post?

    Relocing is not essentially about winning, it is adding additional options to the map flow and thus creating a more interesting gameplay experience. I sometimes reloc into the vent north of MS in bast, with a PG for map access. Sure it is not a position that improves your chances for the win, but it is fun as hell ^^

    Doing late reloc into a hive, with a full HA team is also quite interesting. There is no AR to wear you down and aliens have to use brute force to shatter such an alamo. (Works best on nacy ^^) Sometimes you can even make a push out of your hive and still win tounge.gif

    QUOTE(TychoCelchuuu @ Jul 30 2008, 03:51 PM) »
    The only similarity to Ground Control is that instead of arriving from a building, your dudes arrive from the sky. Why does that merit a meh?
    QUOTE(puzl @ Apr 20 2007, 04:38 PM) »
    You can mince it anyway you like, but if a government can take it a way then it doesn't really matter if it is a right or a privilege, does it?
  • AliteAlite Members, Reinforced - Shadow Join Date: 2007-03-02 Member: 60188Posts: 76 Fully active user
    QUOTE(Rapier7 @ Apr 21 2007, 04:00 PM) »

    Relocating is never worth it. It only succeeds when the alien team is nub.

    Over half the games are marine stacked anyways, if you think you're a good comm and you play on a pub, chances are you suck ######.


    I don't see how u could know i suck if u haven't even seen me comm. I mean u can't go saying i suck at comming just because i play in a pub. Anyways my point is: u cant just go saying ''this guy sucks because he plays in a pub'' and not even seen him comm. Atleast if u would have played a game where i comm, then it would make a bit more sense if u said i suck at comming.

    And yes i know, ive repeated myself like 3 times but whatever.
  • SwiftspearSwiftspear Custim tital Members Join Date: 2003-10-29 Member: 22097Posts: 7,019
    Relocation is quite viable. I don't do it for one main reason, it's high risk high reward. Most relocations fail in the initial push. If you were to take records of marine comms who regularly relocated as opposed to marine comms who used more generic strategies you'd find that the generic strat comms would have a higher win loss. The RLers might feel they spend as much or more time winning, but the reality of the situation is that most of their relocations fail before they even start, and then the game quickly ends soon after. If the game doesn't end it ends up a VERY VERY boring, stagnant marine loss, where marines really have no chance of winning because upgrades and weapons come too late to seriously threaten the late game aliens.

    If the marines fluke out and make a very solid relocation point then it's the other way around. The aliens have a tripply hard time controlling the map, and the game ends up a slow stagnant guaranteed alien loss.

    One way or the other, relocations really don't pan out in the commander overall win/loss ranking, and they much more rarely result in satisfying fun games then just staying in MS where you really should have stayed in the first place.
    O_O image
  • SpaceJesusSpaceJesus Banned Join Date: 2004-07-02 Member: 29683Posts: 938
    Relocations work, you just need to know what you're doing and call a good relocate based on which hive they spawn with. Most people just blindly call a relocate, then when tehy find its right next to the alien start hive the marines get overrun by respawning skulks and its GG.
    *IMAGE BALEETED.* Sigs are not to exceed 400x75 or 22KB. No exceptions. -Talesin
  • the_x5the_x5 the Xzianthian Members, Constellation Join Date: 2004-03-02 Member: 27041Posts: 3,175
    QUOTE(SpaceJesus @ Apr 29 2007, 07:58 PM) »
    Relocations work, you just need to know what you're doing and call a good relocate based on which hive they spawn with. Most people just blindly call a relocate, then when tehy find its right next to the alien start hive the marines get overrun by respawning skulks and its GG.


    IMHO that's when practice comes in. smile-fix.gif

    And yes I've seen that and then those same people complain about relocations being stupid. Well, you hadn't chosen the worst spot on the map, command, we would have been alright. In fact, I remember one guy who actually jumped in the comm chair when he spawned (instead of helping me get the new base phasegate up) and recycled base. We ejected him quickly but not before he sabotaged the game for us. When we demanded to know 'WTH" he simply said "relocations suck gg". Suffice to say he the switched to aliens and started an arguement with the server calling people "n-word"s and thus he was kicked. But my point is that some people will flat out intentionally ruin a game simpy because they don't want to try a different strategy.
    Coined the qualitative attribute entropy in reference to game maps.
    Do not eat the dark energy balls, please.
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  • MisereMisere Members Join Date: 2004-03-28 Member: 27568Posts: 202 Fully active user
    edited April 2007
    QUOTE(Rapier7 @ Apr 21 2007, 11:00 AM) »

    Relocating is never worth it. It only succeeds when the alien team is nub.

    Over half the games are marine stacked anyways, if you think you're a good comm and you play on a pub, chances are you suck ######.


    Right, nice one. Until you see him play (or anyone else for that matter), with a team that listens, you can not make that assumption or statement without sounding like a compete NOOB! Relocations work against non nub aliens as well and can be a very good idea if MS is a long walk to RT/Hives and/or has a high ceiling that aids Fades and lerks. Maybe your own failures in relocation has caused you to form this option? Reguardless treat others with respect.

    Relocation tips:

    Pick a spot as cramped as possible, with a low number of entry points to avoid getting owned by the higher life forms. This will tip the defensive balance towards the marines. Don’t go over board though as you don’t want to hinder the marines as well.

    A spot with an RT that you can electrify is very good for IF but also AL and PL defence.

    PG at marine start is handy to beacon with but beware of OC and webbing being placed there waiting for you to beam your team directly into it.

    Vents are bad due to lerks gas and bile bombs.


    Final point to support relocations:

    I can’t remember the map name (it’s the one that use to have double res in Holo) but they had to change the map because the marines would win every time with a relocation spot that allowed them to control a res point and siege two hives from the same spot.
    Team[SAGO]^
    [Misere]^ | #sago on irc.gamesurge.net
    No plan survives first contact with the enemy Helmuth von Moltke
  • CLARK_KENTCLARK_KENT Vancouver, CanadaMembers, Reinforced - Silver Join Date: 2002-11-21 Member: 9508Posts: 100 Fully active user
    edited April 2007
    QUOTE(Swiftspear @ Apr 26 2007, 01:35 AM) »
    I don't do it for one main reason, it's high risk high reward. Most relocations fail in the initial push. If you were to take records of marine comms who regularly relocated as opposed to marine comms who used more generic strategies you'd find that the generic strat comms would have a higher win loss.


    I agree with Swiftspear here. But, I just realized we may be talking about two different things. I (and possibly Swiftspear) am *assuming* a 6 vs. 6 game (which developers have used in their attempts to maintain balance). I'm used to these smaller games and competitive play. In this environment, relos have very low odds of working out.

    However, I have played on pub servers that are much larger, and in that case, then yes, perhaps the odds of a relo working are greater and indeed more feasible. smile-fix.gif

    QUOTE(Misere @ Apr 29 2007, 11:32 PM) »

    I can’t remember the map name (it’s the one that use to have double res in Holo) but they had to change the map because the marines would win every time with a relocation spot that allowed them to control a res point and siege two hives from the same spot.

    Wow, that was a long, long time ago... I believe versions 2.x? The map was ns_hera, and the siege point was lower processing. Good memories! smile-fix.gif

    I did mention before that in previous versions of NS (pre-3.x), relos did work, and work quite well, as in this perfect example. However, I haven't seen that to be the case in 3.x (assuming 6 vs. 6). The changes in map, as mentioned, as well as changes in cost/time of upgrades (both marines and aliens) have made relos' odds much lower (assuming 6 vs. 6).
    Known Aliases in NS1 and NS2: Furious Gorge aka 9, 1001, 234, NSPlayer, CAPS LOCK, CLARK KENT
  • locallyunscenelocallyunscene Feeder of Trolls Members, Constellation Join Date: 2002-12-25 Member: 11528Posts: 4,022 Fully active user
    edited May 2007
    I don't relocate that often anymore. Usually in a pub the team will have decided they want to reloc by all running out of base. There aren't that many good reloc spots although there are plenty of workable ones. The ones I use more commonly are:

    ns_veil: System Waypointing. It's the hallway between sub and cargo. It's easy to lock the west side of the map and if you can get a phase up in marine start you control half+ of the map easy. If their hive is pipe I would call this the ideal relocate as there are no vents above to get bile bombed/gassed from like cargo and quicker walking distance to cargo/sub than nanogrid(double).

    ns_bast: Main Aft. I don't think there's really any good place on bast to relocate, but this place is better than marine start. Quicker access to engine (which is generally a first come, first serve hive) and refinery. Also quick access to tram tunnell which is an good siege spot. I've seen tram tunnell relocates work, but the vents above it would be nasty for marines if aliens used them.

    ns_shiva: Shiva Core. Seems like a gimme being double but the real benefits are quick access to the good siege spot on the middle hive, central location, and that once you weld open the second node the room opens up substantially. Just like all doubles the other nodes are farther away but the fact that there are 4 equidistant from it makes up for the travel time(maintainence, generator, datacore(the middle hive I think), and the node on top of the elevator). It's a hard reloc to get but offers many advantages.

    ns_eclipse: T Junction. Good spot similar to System Waypointing. Lot's been said about it all ready.

    Some general reloc rules:

    1. Arms lab comes later. Reloc is about map control and to hold map control you need pgs. Also the obs will alert marines to early attacks on base which will be more frequent and possibly deadly with a reloc.

    2. TWO IPS! There is no bacon, it doesn't exist until a pg is up in MS. Even then it needs to be used sparingly overall and rarely for base defense. Meat grinders will happen.

    3. Take the time to build your base smart. X5's C12 pic is a pretty good example. Ips and Phase gate in the open everything else on a wall/in a corner/ and or elec protected. Build your Ips on different elevations if you can. DO NOT build ips/pg in cramped spaces. You're asking for spawn camp/meat grinder.

    4. TWO IPS!!!!

    EDIT:

    5. Upgrades first. You need to be prepared for that fade, especially if you're controlling 2 hive and substantial res nodes. An advanced armory is just a liabilty if you don't have the upgrades to use it effectively. Tech to teir 2(pg) on the obs and make sure you'll have weps 2 and or armor 2 by the time the armory is done. MT is highly reccomended but that depends more on the marines. Which is killing them more: ambush, or higher life forms?

    6 Grenades. Early pg clearing like no other. Optional but suggested.
    Post edited by Unknown User on
    QUOTE (Flayra @ Mar 28 2007, 09:21 PM) »
    It's not an easy balance to achieve, but we do want to make a game that will be both the best competitive game since Starcraft and also one that many people can enjoy casually without being in a clan or an experienced or knowledgeable NS player. That's the goal at least!


    - NS in game name - tilde - My Steam Id Page - .
  • the_x5the_x5 the Xzianthian Members, Constellation Join Date: 2004-03-02 Member: 27041Posts: 3,175
    QUOTE(Misere @ Apr 30 2007, 02:32 AM) »
    I can’t remember the map name (it’s the one that use to have double res in Holo) but they had to change the map because the marines would win every time with a relocation spot that allowed them to control a res point and siege two hives from the same spot.


    That would be 2.01 version of ns_hera and a relocate to hera entrance. I used to do that most games I commanded on that map, so I can say I was definitely a factor in the developers fixing that. wink-fix.gif

    I'm still trying to figure out good relocations for ns_lucid and ns_machina...

    A Nexus relocation on ns_lucid ROCKS, if you can get set up there that is. I wouldn't work in competitive play, but if you have some marines that can aim and stick together and an alien team with only so-so situational awareness, DO IT! Relocate to Nexus. It's extremely defendable and in the middle of a ring of resource towers. Just pick a direction and start grabbing res, hives, whatever.
    A tip though: aliens can attack from any side, build important strucures on the north enclove wall, and don't leave base completely undefended. (aliens can counter by rushing altogether if you don't stay aware of your base defenses)

    Relocations on the map ns_machina is hard to figure out simply because it is designed so well. (unlike most NS maps) I think the Angel's Grave Hive relocation is the only semi-solid relocation point. You have a "double RT" and a hive location. It's just tough to get set up in and because of its geometry and lighting can be tricky to keep from getting gassed and the later gassed and focus swiped. In otherwords, high entropy on a NS map is a good thing for balance, and a potentially difficulty factor working against an ideal relocation spot.
    Coined the qualitative attribute entropy in reference to game maps.
    Do not eat the dark energy balls, please.
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  • huhuhhuhuh Members Join Date: 2005-01-07 Member: 33190Posts: 92
    QUOTE(the_x5 @ May 7 2007, 02:51 AM) »

    That would be 2.01 version of ns_hera and a relocate to hera entrance. I used to do that most games I commanded on that map, so I can say I was definitely a factor in the developers fixing that. wink-fix.gif


    It's more like 1.04 version of hear, near Data core hive you can siege 2 hives with the same sieges, and have a few nodes there too.
  • locallyunscenelocallyunscene Feeder of Trolls Members, Constellation Join Date: 2002-12-25 Member: 11528Posts: 4,022 Fully active user
    QUOTE
    I'm still trying to figure out good relocations for ns_lucid and ns_machina...


    I can't imagine there being a good reloc spot on lucid. Or rather there are several good reloc spots but it's such a small map that it couldn't be worth it. MS is actually equidistant from two hives so IMO it would be best to keep marine start but quickly try to get fortifications up in nexus or conflict if you're going for map control.

    machina I haven't commed much (if at all) but I'm interested in finding one now.
    QUOTE (Flayra @ Mar 28 2007, 09:21 PM) »
    It's not an easy balance to achieve, but we do want to make a game that will be both the best competitive game since Starcraft and also one that many people can enjoy casually without being in a clan or an experienced or knowledgeable NS player. That's the goal at least!


    - NS in game name - tilde - My Steam Id Page - .
  • spellman23spellman23 NS1 Theorycraft Expert Members Join Date: 2007-05-17 Member: 60920Posts: 3,365
    Whee relocations.....

    I for the most part agree that it's mainly for the fun of it. Sure it's risky, but if you relocate to the other side of the map from the Alien Hive to a good spot, you usually can control that map and hunker down for some serious destruction.

    Then again, it's fun.

    There was this one round on ns_tanith where we tried a reloc into Cargo Storage (dbl). Got the CC up, and I happened to build an IP back in base. Suddenly it was skulk madness. Somehow we managed to hold the base with the whole alien team baring down on us and spawning back in MS. Once the IPs went up, recycled MS IPs and went from there. What made it was the cramped quarters preventing a good alien rush and an electrified turret factory (not sure how that went up before the IPs....). Basically an example of crazy fun even with seriously stupid mistakes on both sides. However, it was an awesome game for both sides since now we were behind in tech but had a lot of res from the kills and dbl nodes.
    helping bring perspective and learning since the olde days

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    <Mexican> For a while, I thought it was 'Oh ######'!


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