<!--quoteo(post=1621434:date=Apr 17 2007, 09:44 AM:name=CplDavis)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(CplDavis @ Apr 17 2007, 09:44 AM) [snapback]1621434[/snapback]</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec--> secondly... Faskalia, about the burlgar in your house
....lol? <!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Mainz, thats near Frankfurt.
And what do you mean with "...lol?"?
Arming yourself with fully automatic weapons and full body armor is the next step in self-defence if you are willing to follow the average pro-gun americans <strike>train</strike> <strike>bus</strike> pedestrian of thoughs.
The worst thing about this, that there is an actual prime example of what can happen if you keep the arms-spiral going. Nations have been doing this for decades and now of course the citizen is not willing to miss the fun in modernizing his personal weapon arsenal.
Seriously though: The thing in my household that comes closest to a weapon is either a nailclipper or my cooking skills.
Btw: Does anyone know, how to enalbe spellchecker for firefox? (Or was it a forum feature?) I reinstalled my system and know doesnt spellcheck anymore <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/sad-fix.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":(" border="0" alt="sad-fix.gif" />
Maybe it's the fact that I live in Wisconsin (probably the most uneventful decently-populated US state), but I've seen far more automatic weaponry in Germany (and when I visited Rome) then I did in the previous 20 years in the US, so I have no idea what you're talking about from personal experience (...I've seen more automatic weapons on TV in the US, but then again, I don't have a TV in Germany).
Perhaps now is the time for the Chris Rock quip about <a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ET9PJJEYByA" target="_blank">bullet control</a>?
<!--quoteo(post=1621453:date=Apr 17 2007, 07:46 AM:name=lolfighter)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(lolfighter @ Apr 17 2007, 07:46 AM) [snapback]1621453[/snapback]</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec--> Most burglaries happen during the daytime, actually, when people are not at home. So much easier to pilfer your TV when you're not there to object. <!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> As I'm heavily involved with the Neighborhood Crime Watch and on top of these statistics, I can attest to this being correct. We have quarterly meetings/cookouts and the local police give us this info. 9:00am - 3:00pm is when most home burglaries occur. My neighbor had a brand new pressure washer stolen out of his (open) garage, while they were out back cooking out. Brassy, eh?
puzlThe Old FirmJoin Date: 2003-02-26Member: 14029Retired Developer, NS1 Playtester, Forum Moderators, Constellation
<!--quoteo(post=1621452:date=Apr 17 2007, 12:32 PM:name=cshank4)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(cshank4 @ Apr 17 2007, 12:32 PM) [snapback]1621452[/snapback]</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec--> Well, screw the gun control nuts. A little saying we had back in Colorado: 'Everyone's a lot friendlier when everyone's got a gun.' <!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
It has been stated the same gunman is responsible for both the morning dormitory murders, and those later committed in the classrooms. It was said he was a 23 year old Korean undergraduate student there.
<!--QuoteBegin-cshank4+--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(cshank4)</div><div class='quotemain'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Well, screw the gun control nuts.
A little saying we had back in Colorado: 'Everyone's a lot friendlier when everyone's got a gun.'<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> <!--QuoteBegin-Sam Vimes+--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Sam Vimes)</div><div class='quotemain'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Have you ever been in a pub where everyone goes armed? Oh, things are a little polite at first, I'll grant you, and then some twerp drinks out of the wrong mug or picks up someone else's change by mistake and five minutes later you're picking noses out of the beer nuts.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> -Jingo, by Terry Pratchett, an Englishman.
<!--quoteo(post=1621380:date=Apr 17 2007, 02:06 AM:name=Scythe)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Scythe @ Apr 17 2007, 02:06 AM) [snapback]1621380[/snapback]</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec--> I utterly fail to understand the logic of "If everyone had guns, we'd be safer from people with guns."
God I hate americans sometimes. All having a gun means is that you've upped the ante. Shooters that are going to break the law are going to know that everyone will have a gun and he'll come prepared with bigger guns, armor, grenades and what have you.
Ban handguns.
Yes, for a while there would be an imbalance between handgun owners, skewed towards the illegal end of the scale, but eventually they'd filter out of the system. Handguns exist for no reason other than killing humans. You don't hunt with them. Typical american kneejerk reaction. If someone breaks into your house with a gun and the intent to kill, you're going to be dead on the floor before you can think to reach for your key to your gun locker. Because that's where all responsible gun owners keep their guns right?
--Scythe-- <!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Not in the slightest. A 1911 Colt .45 has a combination trigger lock AND a cliplock mechanism preventing bullets from chambering. All I have to do is insert my key, pull the first lock off, insert my key, pull the second lock off, and I'm good to go. Granted it is ALSO inside a locked cabnet beside my bed and the locks on the gun are very high quality, so breaking them without damaging the gun would be a difficult, laborious process.
And yes, I would have plenty of time to do this. IF the gunman should get past my German Shephard (who would probably murder the guy himself should he threaten my family) I would have plenty of advanced warning.
Another thing - CQC is difficult. It is very easy to, within a space of 2 yards, fire off a full clip and have neither side hit each other. In Close Quarters, it's about staying calm, getting as steady an aim as you can, and making the shot count. My father was a member of the british SAS and he has taught me how to handle many different types of guns, as well as various other ways to disarm, disable, or outright kill a person. I also take basic martial arts so I have the presence of mind to use the right amount of force. If I don't have to kill the person, i won't- obviously if it's a fifteen year old punk breaking in, I'd be more than happy to get him with his back turned and either pistol whip him (the shock of which would either knock him out cold or at the very least knock him over and probably drop his weapon) or simply have my dog subdue him. Without any training, the chances of that kid hitting me are astronomical. Having a 125 pound large breed dog bearing down on him, the chances are far worse thanks to fear.
Now, should guns be banned, fine. I'll simply trade them in for a crossbow, machete, combat knife, throwing knives, shuriken, whatever. I will protect my family with my life. Period. If I am not mistaken, that is an unspoken right of an American citizen - to protect their family on their land.
As far as gun control goes, I believe all guns should be REQUIRED to be outfit with either radiotag ID chips (requiring a very short-range radio chip to be implanted in the owners hands) or a fingerprint ID system. That way the owner, and ONLY the owner, can fire the gun. This would make things much more difficult on the black market as you would either have to disable the system (which involves completely re-building the gun) or re-producing the fingerprint / radio signal, which is no easy feat.
Oh, and as far as a "Typical American KneeJerk Reaction" - I'm dual citizenship with the UK so screw off you great git. Father, as I said, is British while my mother is unknown (adopted). I'm born on US soil, making me American but I have held onto my British heritage because, to be frank, should someone start a draft so American soldiers can go fight someone elses war, I'll just become a full British Subject. Every law I have looked at shows it as a completely legitimate and legal approach, though some people claim I'm a coward- I have no problem dying for MY country, but I sure as hell wont' go die because some other country is busy fighting itself.
A few quick notes on that. First up, there are 3 types of lies, remember that and you will be ok. I don't actually remember what this website is reporting based on. There are 2 general ways of measuring crime: Police records are great for somethings (like murder), not so good for others (rape is generally under reported). Victim Self Report is not so good at reporting murder (dead men don't talk), but much more accurate for things like Rape (people are more likely to say they were raped on an anon survey then to a cop).
What every one should be looking at is the second chart (the blue one) where you are looking at Index rates. Index Rates allow you to compare crime rates across areas as they help compensate for the fact that an area with 10 times as large a population WILL have a higher crime rate. In fact, if you scroll down you can see how Colorado was compared to other states (the answer is that they are a little below the middle)
For some more random information, I live in Queens, NY. In fact I live in the <a href="http://www.nyc.gov/html/nypd/html/pct/pct109.html" target="_blank">109th precinct</a>. From that web page you can see similar stats as previously linked, however just for where I live (if you also live in NY and want to find your precinct go <a href="http://www.unhp.org/crg/indy-maps.html#polprecanchor" target="_blank">Here</a>, then just go to their webpage). Unfortunately these numbers are just pure #s, if you want to look at index numbers then go look at Disaster Center, they have them.
No, there was no REAL point to this, aside from the fact that I like numbers. Any one know if this data is out there for the EU? <a href="http://www.disastercenter.com/crime/uscrime.htm" target="_blank">Here</a> are the statistics from the US. here we go, crime statistics for Germany (2003) <a href="http://www.bka.de/pks/pks2003ev/pcs_2003.pdf" target="_blank">PDF</a>, if you dig through it we have a 1.0 murder index for 2003, compared to a 5.7 in the USA. What is the gun legislation in Germany like?
mkay, I can't find anything good for England (england has incredibly strict gun laws, right?).
Btw, would people PLEASE leave the "omg, Americans are <bad thing>" please? We have a few nuts, I know, but so does every country. Yah, you might not like the opinions of some Americans, but yah know what? Neither do I, so stop lumping us all together. That or I get to start calling all German's cannibals, and the Brits are all Chavs <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/tounge.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":p" border="0" alt="tounge.gif" />
Ninja Edit for Faskalia: There is not forcible rape, it covers things like: Stachatory rape (both are consenting, but if one is below the age of consent it IS rape) Date Rape (Get her so drunk she doesn't know what she is doing) And others.
Nother ninja edit for Kittamaru: Copying an RFID tag is rather easy <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/tounge.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":p" border="0" alt="tounge.gif" /> To make it harder it needs to be challenge response, and that requires a power source, and I don't think many people will go in for having batteries implanted in them <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/biggrin-fix.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":D" border="0" alt="biggrin-fix.gif" />
I think the bottom line is this: gun control wouldn't have prevented this incident, but people walking around armed when tempers flair isn't going to lower the crime rate, either.
Homicidal sprees like this will happen from time to time. All that's left to do is mourn the fallen and soldier on, taking note of areas where disaster response was weak. I can't fault a bunch of officers for not taking a stand if they haven't been trained for it. I don't know what I would do in such a situation either. I <i>can</i> fault the training programs of those officers, however.
I suppose urban combat and sweep/clear maneuvers training could help in the future. I don't know.
What I do know is that I'm all for owning a gun. I <i>don't</i> advocate hauling it around with you all the time. I've got enough dead weight on me already with books and electronics; don't know about the rest of you all.
I'm not sure if it's still in effect, but I believe England had banned all guns just before WWII
EDIT - And just for clarification, I do have a rather angsty stance on this. At least one person I knew was killed down there, a member of the Asero gaming community. I had played with him a couple of times, though I didn't know him personally, and he was a great person. It aggrivates me so much to see not only the poor response from emergency personel who could have done something, anything, to help. Instead they stood around waiting for more information while hearing all this going on... something has to change somewhere...
<!--quoteo(post=1621469:date=Apr 17 2007, 03:56 PM:name=Thansal)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Thansal @ Apr 17 2007, 03:56 PM) [snapback]1621469[/snapback]</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec--> What is the gun legislation in Germany like? <!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
We have something called "Waffenbesitzkarte" or WBK for short. If you have such a WBK you are allowed to purchase Kurzwaffen (semi-automatic pistols) and also Hunting rifles (again semi automatic).
But you are NOT allowed to carry them around with you, unless you are on your own property. If you want to for example transport your sporting rifle to the targeting range, you need to transport the weapon and the ammo seperatly in such a fasion, that you cannot load the weapon quickly. (Weapon the the cars trunk, ammo in the glove compartment)
If you want to carry weapon around with you you need to make a "Waffenschein". This allows you to carry weapons.
Get either the WBK or the Waffenschein is not that easy. You need to take a test then the usual background check.
And then there is also the "Jagdschein" specifically for hunters.
To make it short: -No automatic weapons! -Only if there is a actual need (weapon collecter, hunter, bodyguard, sport-shooter) -Carrying weapons around is highly restricted (only bodyguards and only while they are on duty, as well as hunters while they are on the hunt) -Weapon and ammo need to be stored seperatly and in a tresor! -Even only the slightest administrative offence can result in your WBK or Waffenschein to be permanently revoked. (Yes, even a parking ticket or driving bus witheout a proper ticket)
ThansalThe New ScumJoin Date: 2002-08-22Member: 1215Members, Constellation
edited April 2007
those are relatively similar to alot of the US laws.
unfortunately each state has their own laws covering permits and such, I am sorta familiar with the NYC ones. You need a permit to carry/own any gun. There are a large number of permits (the basic one is like the basic one you listed), then there are more advanced licenses depending on what you want/need to do.
Kittamaru, you really seem to think that will help, and I don't know why.
What you are basically talking about is DRM for guns, and we all know how effective DRM is.
Not just DRM, but true individual identification. There are already a number of other reasons to do this.
I know of at least one person who, he and his wife, have identical radio chips in the back of their hands in the flesh skin between the thumb and index finger. It's injected with a standard needle, and virtually painless moments after injection.
His car, the locks to his house, light switches, etc, it's all controlled by those radio chips. If you are carrying a bag of groceries, you simply wave your hand near the reader pad, and the door unlocks and swings open.
Want to open your car? Wave your hand over the lock and it unlocks and opens the door.
Want to fire your gun? You put your hand on the pistol grip, it registers the radio signature, and the gun's safety goes from "locked safe" to "safe", and you can trigger it to fire when you wish. Otherwise, it's stuck on safe. You break the safety, the gun no longer fires.
Granted, this stuff isn't cheap... but can you REALLY put a price on a persons life?
Getting permits is not the problem... having legitimate citizens holding guns is fine. It's when whackojackoff's get these weapons and go on rampages. If they stole it from their father or bought it from the black market, either way they still have it. Then it's a case of making the gun NOT WORK.
call me crazy or insensitive or desensitized to violence, but I have a hard time getting worked up over things like this. I am desensitized, and videogames didn't do it, and the media didn't do it - reality did it. the reality that far worse things than the slaughter of 32 innocent civilians happen every day around the world and it never even makes the news if it's not in a first-world country... we should be thankful that things like this are as rare as they are.
I am surprised it was an Asian male though. I thought the only people who flipped out and killed a ton of people in the US were white males. Silence of the Lambs lied to me <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/sad-fix.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":(" border="0" alt="sad-fix.gif" />
<!--quoteo(post=1621487:date=Apr 17 2007, 04:15 PM:name=DiscoZombie)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(DiscoZombie @ Apr 17 2007, 04:15 PM) [snapback]1621487[/snapback]</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec--> the reality that far worse things than the slaughter of 32 innocent civilians happen every day around the world and it never even makes the news if it's not in a first-world country... we should be thankful that things like this are as rare as they are.
I am surprised it was an Asian male though. I thought the only people who flipped out and killed a ton of people in the US were white males. Silence of the Lambs lied to me <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/sad-fix.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":(" border="0" alt="sad-fix.gif" /> <!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Pretty much insensitive I would say. Yes it's a travesty that alot of people die due to a dictatorship such as Mugabe and Zimbabwe or new borns are being killed in China for being unplanned or there is poverty in Africa. Although they are on a much different scale because they are a continual occurance, it is widely expected that death or mis-treatment of people will occur.
However America being a nation which are supposed to be high on security especially riding off of September 11 in which quite a few countries are supposed to have heightened their security puts it on a different scale. In America people expect to be safe they don't expect to die young as members of other nations who are less fortunate may expect to die young, for example.
ThansalThe New ScumJoin Date: 2002-08-22Member: 1215Members, Constellation
Kitt: RFID can be cloned, rather easily in fact.
your friend isn't in much danger atm simply b/c of the joys of Security Through Obscurity (aka, no one uses RFID for things like this yet, so miscreants have not expended the energy needed to start cloning them). Hell, something that actually supposedly has a lot of security built into it (E-Passports) can be cloned (I have seen reports of demonstrations from the US, England and Germany).
I just think it's stupid that the 1st shooting and the 2nd one which was a massacre were a couple of hours apart and none thought to evacuate the campus between the two while the authorities hunted down the gunman.
<!--quoteo(post=1621434:date=Apr 17 2007, 03:44 AM:name=CplDavis)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(CplDavis @ Apr 17 2007, 03:44 AM) [snapback]1621434[/snapback]</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec--> It also goes on to qoute ... <!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> what goes on to quote? <!--quoteo(post=1621434:date=Apr 17 2007, 03:44 AM:name=CplDavis)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(CplDavis @ Apr 17 2007, 03:44 AM) [snapback]1621434[/snapback]</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec--> I think I have a little expirience here considering im ACTUALLY a police officer.. and not just google searching random topics off the internet. <!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> i had heard of active shooter before this happened <!--quoteo(post=1621434:date=Apr 17 2007, 03:44 AM:name=CplDavis)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(CplDavis @ Apr 17 2007, 03:44 AM) [snapback]1621434[/snapback]</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec--> I think you misunderstood me earlier. Getting officers on scene to sending others into the building in teams doesnt take some huge amount of time to do. It can be done within minuets or even seconds, as soon everyone shows up. Which in this case would be pretty fast imo considering there were already units from multiple jurisdictions looking for the shooter from the previous incident. <!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> ah ok, yes now i understand better, sounds reasonable <!--quoteo(post=1621434:date=Apr 17 2007, 03:44 AM:name=CplDavis)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(CplDavis @ Apr 17 2007, 03:44 AM) [snapback]1621434[/snapback]</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec--> If i want to critize anything that happened with the college and emergency response today is why there wasnt a warning to lock down the campus after the first shooint incident happened and police were looking for the gunman then. <!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> i absolutely agree.
OK on the gun control issue. I know this: There were 2 home invasion attempts in my town in florida over the past 2 months. That's where they come in armed, tie you up, and steal your stuff, often in broad daylight.
I say "attempts" because the homeowners had guns and were able to kill the intruders. In one case, two men chased a guy into his house and he grabbed his gun and shot them both. This would certainly make me think twice about burglarizing in my town.
I think the main divide between people on the gun control issue is the way they think about their security. Some people want to be protected and feel safe, and believe they deserve it. Others feel that they need to take responsibility for their own security. Both views should be respected, but more or less gun control doesn't solve this problem.
I am guessing most law enforcement officers are ambivalent/conflicted on the issue, because THEY ARE the "protectors". It's their job to serve the former, but they themselves better resemble the latter.
<!--quoteo(post=1621484:date=Apr 17 2007, 05:11 PM:name=Kittamaru)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Kittamaru @ Apr 17 2007, 05:11 PM) [snapback]1621484[/snapback]</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec--> Granted, this stuff isn't cheap... but can you REALLY put a price on a persons life? <!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
You can! Just ask the NRA or any gun lobby for that matter:
"The price for a life is the right to own a gun."
And for the super duper great radio chip: Assuming that the transmission range is kept short (10cm effective range) all you needed to do is shake a persons hand in order to get the radio signature. It might sound fancy, cool and reliable but it is rather easy to crack. All you need is a reciever and you need to come into the effective range of the transmitter and boom: You got the "keys". Then there is also the danger of sepsis.
All that security stuff sounds always really nice, but in the end it is either hardware (real keys) which can be copied or which have locks that can be picked or it is software (like your radio chips or the classsic security code panel) which can be hacked or duplicated.
If you are soo much into safety I would either recommend moving to the arctis (not many burglars over there). Or creating a multilayer security system. You open the front door with your radio-chip and once your are inside you have 10 seconds to enter your personal security code at the next door. If you fail, the sluice will be flodded with serin gas.
I dont know if this is legal, but it shure packs a surprise if you come home drunk and forgot what your code is.
<!--quoteo(post=1621491:date=Apr 17 2007, 03:48 PM:name=Thansal)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Thansal @ Apr 17 2007, 03:48 PM) [snapback]1621491[/snapback]</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec--> Kitt: RFID can be cloned, rather easily in fact.
your friend isn't in much danger atm simply b/c of the joys of Security Through Obscurity (aka, no one uses RFID for things like this yet, so miscreants have not expended the energy needed to start cloning them). Hell, something that actually supposedly has a lot of security built into it (E-Passports) can be cloned (I have seen reports of demonstrations from the US, England and Germany).
Nothing is safe, ever. <!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Not true mate - those RFID tags only transmit about 2 inches. You would pretty easily notice someone using an RF Decoder at that range <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/tounge.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":p" border="0" alt="tounge.gif" /> That and they are encrypted. The ones he uses have a rotating frequency that is randomly generated in sync with the readers. It's really cool actually and pretty secure.
If you want true security, all you need is a retinal scanner with voice recognition. Inside the unit have a hotwire setup that, if opened shorts out the box, locking the door closed.
ThansalThe New ScumJoin Date: 2002-08-22Member: 1215Members, Constellation
RFID readers are not all that large. Hiding a sensor in your hand/pocket/whatever and bumping into some on on a busy street wouldn't be that hard.
Then again, you don't even necessarily need to clone the tag. There was a recent demonstration of a simple buffer overflow exploit on Airport baggage handling software. Nothing is ever safe or secure.
Personally I like physical security (keys and deadbolts) as most of those at least require some skill, and generally TIME to circumvent. One you have a way to get passed an RFID security measure, all of that convenience that you previously enjoyed, some one malicious is now enjoying also.
Passive RFID is not safe.
Active RFID can be safer, but that requires Challenge/Response (much like your garage door opener or car keys), and thus can't be reasonably implanted on a person.
ThansalThe New ScumJoin Date: 2002-08-22Member: 1215Members, Constellation
If it is an active RFID tag then he has a battery in him. I kinda doubt that this is actually true, double check with your friend (get the name of the tag and the manufacturer, as I am honestly curious now).
I know it runs off the minute bio-electric energy in his body, so in essence he is the battery. I'm tempted to get one myself, but that involves a large expense in changing over locks and other such things <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/sad-fix.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":(" border="0" alt="sad-fix.gif" />
Aighty, I think the manufacturer is Applied Digital Solutions, which makes a lot of active and passive RFID chips, both implantable, attachable, and wearable.
Cool, instead letting you double post, NS's forums auto-edit it into the previous post. Nice.
Comments
secondly... Faskalia, about the burlgar in your house
....lol?
<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Mainz, thats near Frankfurt.
And what do you mean with "...lol?"?
Arming yourself with fully automatic weapons and full body armor is the next step in self-defence if you are willing to follow the average pro-gun americans <strike>train</strike> <strike>bus</strike> pedestrian of thoughs.
The worst thing about this, that there is an actual prime example of what can happen if you keep the arms-spiral going. Nations have been doing this for decades and now of course the citizen is not willing to miss the fun in modernizing his personal weapon arsenal.
Seriously though: The thing in my household that comes closest to a weapon is either a nailclipper or my cooking skills.
Btw: Does anyone know, how to enalbe spellchecker for firefox? (Or was it a forum feature?) I reinstalled my system and know doesnt spellcheck anymore <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/sad-fix.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":(" border="0" alt="sad-fix.gif" />
Perhaps now is the time for the Chris Rock quip about <a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ET9PJJEYByA" target="_blank">bullet control</a>?
A little saying we had back in Colorado: 'Everyone's a lot friendlier when everyone's got a gun.'
Most burglaries happen during the daytime, actually, when people are not at home. So much easier to pilfer your TV when you're not there to object.
<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
As I'm heavily involved with the Neighborhood Crime Watch and on top of these statistics, I can attest to this being correct. We have quarterly meetings/cookouts and the local police give us this info. 9:00am - 3:00pm is when most home burglaries occur. My neighbor had a brand new pressure washer stolen out of his (open) garage, while they were out back cooking out. Brassy, eh?
Well, screw the gun control nuts.
A little saying we had back in Colorado: 'Everyone's a lot friendlier when everyone's got a gun.'
<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<a href="http://www.disastercenter.com/crime/cocrime.htm" target="_blank">Oh really?</a>
<a href="http://www.disastercenter.com/crime/cocrime.htm" target="_blank">Oh really?</a>
<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I really like the forcible rape collom. Makes you believe that there is also non-forcible rape!
Anyway: Do you have some Data regarding the fireamrs per citizen in order to compare it?
A little saying we had back in Colorado: 'Everyone's a lot friendlier when everyone's got a gun.'<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<!--QuoteBegin-Sam Vimes+--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Sam Vimes)</div><div class='quotemain'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Have you ever been in a pub where everyone goes armed? Oh, things are a little polite at first, I'll grant you, and then some twerp drinks out of the wrong mug or picks up someone else's change by mistake and five minutes later you're picking noses out of the beer nuts.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
-Jingo, by Terry Pratchett, an Englishman.
--Scythe--
I utterly fail to understand the logic of "If everyone had guns, we'd be safer from people with guns."
God I hate americans sometimes. All having a gun means is that you've upped the ante. Shooters that are going to break the law are going to know that everyone will have a gun and he'll come prepared with bigger guns, armor, grenades and what have you.
Ban handguns.
Yes, for a while there would be an imbalance between handgun owners, skewed towards the illegal end of the scale, but eventually they'd filter out of the system. Handguns exist for no reason other than killing humans. You don't hunt with them.
Typical american kneejerk reaction. If someone breaks into your house with a gun and the intent to kill, you're going to be dead on the floor before you can think to reach for your key to your gun locker. Because that's where all responsible gun owners keep their guns right?
--Scythe--
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Not in the slightest. A 1911 Colt .45 has a combination trigger lock AND a cliplock mechanism preventing bullets from chambering. All I have to do is insert my key, pull the first lock off, insert my key, pull the second lock off, and I'm good to go. Granted it is ALSO inside a locked cabnet beside my bed and the locks on the gun are very high quality, so breaking them without damaging the gun would be a difficult, laborious process.
And yes, I would have plenty of time to do this. IF the gunman should get past my German Shephard (who would probably murder the guy himself should he threaten my family) I would have plenty of advanced warning.
Another thing - CQC is difficult. It is very easy to, within a space of 2 yards, fire off a full clip and have neither side hit each other. In Close Quarters, it's about staying calm, getting as steady an aim as you can, and making the shot count. My father was a member of the british SAS and he has taught me how to handle many different types of guns, as well as various other ways to disarm, disable, or outright kill a person. I also take basic martial arts so I have the presence of mind to use the right amount of force. If I don't have to kill the person, i won't- obviously if it's a fifteen year old punk breaking in, I'd be more than happy to get him with his back turned and either pistol whip him (the shock of which would either knock him out cold or at the very least knock him over and probably drop his weapon) or simply have my dog subdue him. Without any training, the chances of that kid hitting me are astronomical. Having a 125 pound large breed dog bearing down on him, the chances are far worse thanks to fear.
Now, should guns be banned, fine. I'll simply trade them in for a crossbow, machete, combat knife, throwing knives, shuriken, whatever. I will protect my family with my life. Period. If I am not mistaken, that is an unspoken right of an American citizen - to protect their family on their land.
As far as gun control goes, I believe all guns should be REQUIRED to be outfit with either radiotag ID chips (requiring a very short-range radio chip to be implanted in the owners hands) or a fingerprint ID system. That way the owner, and ONLY the owner, can fire the gun. This would make things much more difficult on the black market as you would either have to disable the system (which involves completely re-building the gun) or re-producing the fingerprint / radio signal, which is no easy feat.
Oh, and as far as a "Typical American KneeJerk Reaction" - I'm dual citizenship with the UK so screw off you great git. Father, as I said, is British while my mother is unknown (adopted). I'm born on US soil, making me American but I have held onto my British heritage because, to be frank, should someone start a draft so American soldiers can go fight someone elses war, I'll just become a full British Subject. Every law I have looked at shows it as a completely legitimate and legal approach, though some people claim I'm a coward- I have no problem dying for MY country, but I sure as hell wont' go die because some other country is busy fighting itself.
<a href="http://www.disastercenter.com/crime/cocrime.htm" target="_blank">Oh really?</a>
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A few quick notes on that.
First up, there are 3 types of lies, remember that and you will be ok.
I don't actually remember what this website is reporting based on. There are 2 general ways of measuring crime:
Police records are great for somethings (like murder), not so good for others (rape is generally under reported).
Victim Self Report is not so good at reporting murder (dead men don't talk), but much more accurate for things like Rape (people are more likely to say they were raped on an anon survey then to a cop).
What every one should be looking at is the second chart (the blue one) where you are looking at Index rates. Index Rates allow you to compare crime rates across areas as they help compensate for the fact that an area with 10 times as large a population WILL have a higher crime rate. In fact, if you scroll down you can see how Colorado was compared to other states (the answer is that they are a little below the middle)
For some more random information, I live in Queens, NY. In fact I live in the <a href="http://www.nyc.gov/html/nypd/html/pct/pct109.html" target="_blank">109th precinct</a>. From that web page you can see similar stats as previously linked, however just for where I live (if you also live in NY and want to find your precinct go <a href="http://www.unhp.org/crg/indy-maps.html#polprecanchor" target="_blank">Here</a>, then just go to their webpage). Unfortunately these numbers are just pure #s, if you want to look at index numbers then go look at Disaster Center, they have them.
No, there was no REAL point to this, aside from the fact that I like numbers. Any one know if this data is out there for the EU?
<a href="http://www.disastercenter.com/crime/uscrime.htm" target="_blank">Here</a> are the statistics from the US.
here we go, crime statistics for Germany (2003) <a href="http://www.bka.de/pks/pks2003ev/pcs_2003.pdf" target="_blank">PDF</a>, if you dig through it we have a 1.0 murder index for 2003, compared to a 5.7 in the USA. What is the gun legislation in Germany like?
mkay, I can't find anything good for England (england has incredibly strict gun laws, right?).
Btw, would people PLEASE leave the "omg, Americans are <bad thing>" please? We have a few nuts, I know, but so does every country. Yah, you might not like the opinions of some Americans, but yah know what? Neither do I, so stop lumping us all together. That or I get to start calling all German's cannibals, and the Brits are all Chavs <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/tounge.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":p" border="0" alt="tounge.gif" />
Ninja Edit for Faskalia:
There is not forcible rape, it covers things like:
Stachatory rape (both are consenting, but if one is below the age of consent it IS rape)
Date Rape (Get her so drunk she doesn't know what she is doing)
And others.
Nother ninja edit for Kittamaru:
Copying an RFID tag is rather easy <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/tounge.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":p" border="0" alt="tounge.gif" />
To make it harder it needs to be challenge response, and that requires a power source, and I don't think many people will go in for having batteries implanted in them <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/biggrin-fix.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":D" border="0" alt="biggrin-fix.gif" />
Homicidal sprees like this will happen from time to time. All that's left to do is mourn the fallen and soldier on, taking note of areas where disaster response was weak. I can't fault a bunch of officers for not taking a stand if they haven't been trained for it. I don't know what I would do in such a situation either. I <i>can</i> fault the training programs of those officers, however.
I suppose urban combat and sweep/clear maneuvers training could help in the future. I don't know.
What I do know is that I'm all for owning a gun. I <i>don't</i> advocate hauling it around with you all the time. I've got enough dead weight on me already with books and electronics; don't know about the rest of you all.
EDIT - And just for clarification, I do have a rather angsty stance on this. At least one person I knew was killed down there, a member of the Asero gaming community. I had played with him a couple of times, though I didn't know him personally, and he was a great person. It aggrivates me so much to see not only the poor response from emergency personel who could have done something, anything, to help. Instead they stood around waiting for more information while hearing all this going on... something has to change somewhere...
What is the gun legislation in Germany like?
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We have something called "Waffenbesitzkarte" or WBK for short. If you have such a WBK you are allowed to purchase Kurzwaffen (semi-automatic pistols) and also Hunting rifles (again semi automatic).
But you are NOT allowed to carry them around with you, unless you are on your own property. If you want to for example transport your sporting rifle to the targeting range, you need to transport the weapon and the ammo seperatly in such a fasion, that you cannot load the weapon quickly. (Weapon the the cars trunk, ammo in the glove compartment)
If you want to carry weapon around with you you need to make a "Waffenschein". This allows you to carry weapons.
Get either the WBK or the Waffenschein is not that easy. You need to take a test then the usual background check.
And then there is also the "Jagdschein" specifically for hunters.
To make it short:
-No automatic weapons!
-Only if there is a actual need (weapon collecter, hunter, bodyguard, sport-shooter)
-Carrying weapons around is highly restricted (only bodyguards and only while they are on duty, as well as hunters while they are on the hunt)
-Weapon and ammo need to be stored seperatly and in a tresor!
-Even only the slightest administrative offence can result in your WBK or Waffenschein to be permanently revoked. (Yes, even a parking ticket or driving bus witheout a proper ticket)
Make it so guns can only be used by the person they belong to. That's the way to go.
unfortunately each state has their own laws covering permits and such, I am sorta familiar with the NYC ones.
You need a permit to carry/own any gun. There are a large number of permits (the basic one is like the basic one you listed), then there are more advanced licenses depending on what you want/need to do.
Kittamaru, you really seem to think that will help, and I don't know why.
What you are basically talking about is DRM for guns, and we all know how effective DRM is.
Wow... Our schools here in denmark doesn't even consider taking these measurements. Armed officers at a school? Unthinkable...
Really shows some difference huh?
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Ditto in belgium btw, we'd have to call the cops.
I know of at least one person who, he and his wife, have identical radio chips in the back of their hands in the flesh skin between the thumb and index finger. It's injected with a standard needle, and virtually painless moments after injection.
His car, the locks to his house, light switches, etc, it's all controlled by those radio chips. If you are carrying a bag of groceries, you simply wave your hand near the reader pad, and the door unlocks and swings open.
Want to open your car? Wave your hand over the lock and it unlocks and opens the door.
Want to fire your gun? You put your hand on the pistol grip, it registers the radio signature, and the gun's safety goes from "locked safe" to "safe", and you can trigger it to fire when you wish. Otherwise, it's stuck on safe. You break the safety, the gun no longer fires.
Granted, this stuff isn't cheap... but can you REALLY put a price on a persons life?
Getting permits is not the problem... having legitimate citizens holding guns is fine. It's when whackojackoff's get these weapons and go on rampages. If they stole it from their father or bought it from the black market, either way they still have it. Then it's a case of making the gun NOT WORK.
I am surprised it was an Asian male though. I thought the only people who flipped out and killed a ton of people in the US were white males. Silence of the Lambs lied to me <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/sad-fix.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":(" border="0" alt="sad-fix.gif" />
the reality that far worse things than the slaughter of 32 innocent civilians happen every day around the world and it never even makes the news if it's not in a first-world country... we should be thankful that things like this are as rare as they are.
I am surprised it was an Asian male though. I thought the only people who flipped out and killed a ton of people in the US were white males. Silence of the Lambs lied to me <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/sad-fix.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":(" border="0" alt="sad-fix.gif" />
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Pretty much insensitive I would say. Yes it's a travesty that alot of people die due to a dictatorship such as Mugabe and Zimbabwe or new borns are being killed in China for being unplanned or there is poverty in Africa. Although they are on a much different scale because they are a continual occurance, it is widely expected that death or mis-treatment of people will occur.
However America being a nation which are supposed to be high on security especially riding off of September 11 in which quite a few countries are supposed to have heightened their security puts it on a different scale. In America people expect to be safe they don't expect to die young as members of other nations who are less fortunate may expect to die young, for example.
your friend isn't in much danger atm simply b/c of the joys of Security Through Obscurity (aka, no one uses RFID for things like this yet, so miscreants have not expended the energy needed to start cloning them). Hell, something that actually supposedly has a lot of security built into it (E-Passports) can be cloned (I have seen reports of demonstrations from the US, England and Germany).
Nothing is safe, ever.
It also goes on to qoute ...
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what goes on to quote?
<!--quoteo(post=1621434:date=Apr 17 2007, 03:44 AM:name=CplDavis)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(CplDavis @ Apr 17 2007, 03:44 AM) [snapback]1621434[/snapback]</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->
I think I have a little expirience here considering im ACTUALLY a police officer.. and not just google searching random topics off the internet.
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i had heard of active shooter before this happened
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I think you misunderstood me earlier. Getting officers on scene to sending others into the building in teams doesnt take some huge amount of time to do. It can be done within minuets or even seconds, as soon everyone shows up. Which in this case would be pretty fast imo considering there were already units from multiple jurisdictions looking for the shooter from the previous incident.
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ah ok, yes now i understand better, sounds reasonable
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If i want to critize anything that happened with the college and emergency response today is why there wasnt a warning to lock down the campus after the first shooint incident happened and police were looking for the gunman then.
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i absolutely agree.
OK on the gun control issue. I know this:
There were 2 home invasion attempts in my town in florida over the past 2 months. That's where they come in armed, tie you up, and steal your stuff, often in broad daylight.
I say "attempts" because the homeowners had guns and were able to kill the intruders. In one case, two men chased a guy into his house and he grabbed his gun and shot them both. This would certainly make me think twice about burglarizing in my town.
I think the main divide between people on the gun control issue is the way they think about their security. Some people want to be protected and feel safe, and believe they deserve it. Others feel that they need to take responsibility for their own security. Both views should be respected, but more or less gun control doesn't solve this problem.
I am guessing most law enforcement officers are ambivalent/conflicted on the issue, because THEY ARE the "protectors". It's their job to serve the former, but they themselves better resemble the latter.
Granted, this stuff isn't cheap... but can you REALLY put a price on a persons life?
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You can!
Just ask the NRA or any gun lobby for that matter:
"The price for a life is the right to own a gun."
And for the super duper great radio chip: Assuming that the transmission range is kept short (10cm effective range) all you needed to do is shake a persons hand in order to get the radio signature. It might sound fancy, cool and reliable but it is rather easy to crack. All you need is a reciever and you need to come into the effective range of the transmitter and boom: You got the "keys".
Then there is also the danger of sepsis.
All that security stuff sounds always really nice, but in the end it is either hardware (real keys) which can be copied or which have locks that can be picked or it is software (like your radio chips or the classsic security code panel) which can be hacked or duplicated.
If you are soo much into safety I would either recommend moving to the arctis (not many burglars over there). Or creating a multilayer security system. You open the front door with your radio-chip and once your are inside you have 10 seconds to enter your personal security code at the next door. If you fail, the sluice will be flodded with serin gas.
I dont know if this is legal, but it shure packs a surprise if you come home drunk and forgot what your code is.
Kitt: RFID can be cloned, rather easily in fact.
your friend isn't in much danger atm simply b/c of the joys of Security Through Obscurity (aka, no one uses RFID for things like this yet, so miscreants have not expended the energy needed to start cloning them). Hell, something that actually supposedly has a lot of security built into it (E-Passports) can be cloned (I have seen reports of demonstrations from the US, England and Germany).
Nothing is safe, ever.
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Not true mate - those RFID tags only transmit about 2 inches. You would pretty easily notice someone using an RF Decoder at that range <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/tounge.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":p" border="0" alt="tounge.gif" /> That and they are encrypted. The ones he uses have a rotating frequency that is randomly generated in sync with the readers. It's really cool actually and pretty secure.
If you want true security, all you need is a retinal scanner with voice recognition. Inside the unit have a hotwire setup that, if opened shorts out the box, locking the door closed.
Then again, you don't even necessarily need to clone the tag. There was a recent demonstration of a simple buffer overflow exploit on Airport baggage handling software. Nothing is ever safe or secure.
Personally I like physical security (keys and deadbolts) as most of those at least require some skill, and generally TIME to circumvent. One you have a way to get passed an RFID security measure, all of that convenience that you previously enjoyed, some one malicious is now enjoying also.
Passive RFID is not safe.
Active RFID can be safer, but that requires Challenge/Response (much like your garage door opener or car keys), and thus can't be reasonably implanted on a person.
Actually, now that I think about it, I think it is a daily cycle... I'll have to ask him.
Aighty, I think the manufacturer is Applied Digital Solutions, which makes a lot of active and passive RFID chips, both implantable, attachable, and wearable.
Cool, instead letting you double post, NS's forums auto-edit it into the previous post. Nice.
BTW, a cool site about RFID's
<a href="http://www.dhs.gov/xlibrary/assets/privacy/privacy_advcom_12-2006_rpt_RFID.pdf" target="_blank">http://www.dhs.gov/xlibrary/assets/privacy...06_rpt_RFID.pdf</a>