It's not like it's going to hurt those that already know how to bunnyhop. That and it would help bring more people to that level. I don't have a problem with this bunnyhopping, but for the others, I'm sure it would help them a lot.
Theres just no good solid reason for bunnyhopping. Its a skill that, once obtained, stays obtained - its not massively improved on aside from the 'two step' that you learn as a marine. Since it is widely regarded as a necessary skill to have in order to play the game successfully (especially in a competitive environment), coupled with the mindlessness of its execution once learned, I believe that it should be removed, and the skulk's ground speed increased as a compensation. <i>IF</i> it were a skill that was somewhat difficult to master and truly had many, many different levels and degrees of a skilled execution, then I would fully support its continued implementation. HOWEVER, it is NOT.
<b>edit: this discussion is not here to secure the widely known fact that after two hours of solidly practicing the bunnyhop, that it is learned and cemented in your memory as a staple of your skills. It is here to question the bunnyhop's continued existence in the natural-selection universe. I have not really seen a good argument as to why bunny hop should remain in the game - seniority should not and <u>does not</u> apply here.</b> The only serious reason and argument I could find in favor of bunnyhopping is that it increases your speed, making you harder to hit and making it easier to get around on the map. A simple base speed increase of the skulk's movement speed to compensate for the lack of a bunnyhop would make up for everything. What truly would be the difference, and would you really feel like NS is missing something because you now have to spend less time focusing on navigating the map using an awkward movement system but now rather can actually play the game using the forward key at times?
Imagine if walking in another game, the simple act of moving forward, required all the movements you need to bunny hop in this game. Thats what I mean by 'its a basic skill' - its annoying to have to learn for two hours of my time straight just to get down how to walk in Natural-Selection. If it were removed and skulk speed increased instead to compensate, then there would be little to no noticeable change in Natural-Selection gameplay.
a_civilianLikes seeing numbersJoin Date: 2003-01-08Member: 12041Members, NS1 Playtester, Playtest Lead
<!--quoteo(post=1621528:date=Apr 17 2007, 04:24 PM:name=Haze)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Haze @ Apr 17 2007, 04:24 PM) [snapback]1621528[/snapback]</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Its a skill that, once obtained, stays obtained - its not massively improved on aside from the 'two step' that you learn as a marine.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> That's not true at all. There is an enormous depth to bunnyhopping as a skill. Learning the basic movements is like being able to basically point your crosshair in the direction of the enemies. How quickly and reliably can you attain maximum speed? How well can you navigate complex terrain while maintaining speed? How well can you look around, even aim and fight while bunnyhopping?
<!--quoteo(post=1621537:date=Apr 17 2007, 08:46 PM:name=Haze)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Haze @ Apr 17 2007, 08:46 PM) [snapback]1621537[/snapback]</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec--> Imagine if walking in another game, the simple act of moving forward, required all the movements you need to bunny hop in this game. Thats what I mean by 'its a basic skill' - its annoying to have to learn for two hours of my time straight just to get down how to walk in Natural-Selection. If it were removed and skulk speed increased instead to compensate, then there would be little to no noticeable change in Natural-Selection gameplay. <!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I'd doesn't take any specific practice unless you want to. Just try to hop the hallways you're walking nowadays. There should be a plenty of them.
Low skill skulks seem to rock low skill marines quite often. Speed increase wouldn't really help that.
I'd be fine with bhop removal if someone was able to create another evenly interesting and creative way of movement. Just removing it would be dumbing down the game. Replacing it with something with better learning curve would be improving.
<!--quoteo(post=1621537:date=Apr 17 2007, 04:46 PM:name=Haze)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Haze @ Apr 17 2007, 04:46 PM) [snapback]1621537[/snapback]</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec--> Imagine if walking in another game, the simple act of moving forward, required all the movements you need to bunny hop in this game. Thats what I mean by 'its a basic skill' - its annoying to have to learn for two hours of my time straight just to get down how to walk in Natural-Selection. If it were removed and skulk speed increased instead to compensate, then there would be little to no noticeable change in Natural-Selection gameplay. <!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->the widely known fact that after two hours of solidly practicing the bunnyhop, that it is learned and cemented in your memory as a staple of your skills.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> I very rarely encounter a skulk who has mastered bunnyhopping(and I play against pretty good players). In fact, a check of cl_showspeed shows that I can't do it perfectly(3 jumps to 500+) myself.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec--> Imagine if walking in another game, the simple act of moving forward, required all the movements you need to bunny hop in this game. Thats what I mean by 'its a basic skill' - its annoying to have to learn for two hours of my time straight just to get down how to walk in Natural-Selection.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Bunnyhopping is far from a required skill to play Natural-Selection.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec--> If it were removed and skulk speed increased instead to compensate, then there would be little to no noticeable change in Natural-Selection gameplay.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> I don't really like insulting people in my posts..but this is the part where I realized you have no idea what you're talking about. If skulk base speed was bumped up to 500 and bunnyhopping removed....let's see Assuming everybody you played against before was a perfect bunnyhopper.
Skulks in close quarters would be able to go around marines in circles at almost double the rate they do now. An ambushing skulk(too close to really bunnyhop) would get to the marine near-instantly. Skulks could jump out of vents(wall-running included) and basically fly a good distance etc
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec--> IF it were a skill that was somewhat difficult to master and truly had many, many different levels and degrees of a skilled execution, then I would fully support its continued implementation.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Thanks.
WyzcrakPot Pie AficionadoJoin Date: 2002-12-04Member: 10447Forum Moderators, Constellation, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue
<!--quoteo(post=1621528:date=Apr 17 2007, 03:24 PM:name=Haze)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Haze @ Apr 17 2007, 03:24 PM) [snapback]1621528[/snapback]</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec--><i>IF</i> it were a skill that was somewhat difficult to master and truly had many, many different levels and degrees of a skilled execution, then I would fully support its continued implementation.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> <!--quoteo(post=1621541:date=Apr 17 2007, 04:09 PM:name=a_civilian)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(a_civilian @ Apr 17 2007, 04:09 PM) [snapback]1621541[/snapback]</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->There is an enormous depth to bunnyhopping as a skill. How quickly and reliably can you attain maximum speed? How well can you navigate complex terrain while maintaining speed? How well can you look around, even aim and fight while bunnyhopping?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Agreed on all counts.
Alien bunnyhopping is just another in NS' long list of Do Today, Master Tomorrow tasks. Huge to my enjoyment doing it is that, after years of doing it, I've yet to decide I'm finished improving upon my ability.
That having been said, I think the game would gain more than it would lose by making it easier to perform.
Please note that I'm not a player who looks to things that are considered difficult and whines to make them easier - I know, it looks like it, but I'm not. I am just very steadfast in my belief that, for such a basic skill, bunnyhopping is far too tedious to perform. <b>Yes,</b> I'm aware it can be learned within a solid hour or more, but I honestly don't want to devote my time to simply grinding away on a tedious skill that is basic to my gameplay - its not fun! Thinks like fade blink, lerk flight, etc... <i>those</i> are things which are not tedious. They are extremely easy to pick up and difficult to master, but it is something a new player can work on <b>while playing the game</b> and after a week or so of playing, would have a considerate understanding of, enough so that he can survive on a server longer than three seconds.
The main point of this is that these example skills are able to be picked up and learned relatively quickly by new players while still maintaining a large enough margin for expert players to be considerately better at them. Bunnyhopping is frustrating to learn (I <u>know</u> there is more than one person like me that finds it difficult to pick up!) and combined with the fact that it is considered concrete to standard alien gameplay is what turns it to a mess.
If there were a way to implement bunnyhopping so it were extremely easy to pick up, but difficult to master and left room for improvement, I would be all for it. But this rotating the mouse and strafing, how much and how little, not using my forward key - I'm concentrating on it all so much that I'm getting obliterated while trying to play. I should be able to perform an amateur bunnyhop within a day of playing NS when someone tells me how. Like with blinking:
-"How do I fly around like that?" --"Oh, hit your reload key, it jets you forward." -"Awesome!" --"Use it for hit and run attacks."
A new player picks it up immediately. When someone tries to explain bunny hopping to you - hell, I couldn't learn without a damn flash diagram I found on the internet, and I still suck.
My bottom line is, if it cannot be made easier to pick up, then it should be removed. I am in favor of improving the skill and integrating it FULLY with NS, or NOT AT ALL, not "well, the HL engine just <i>does it,</i> so... meh". Make it part of the game, or patch it up where the engine fails.
Spend your hour learning how to bunnyhop since I'm sure you probably spent 1000 hours on NS already. Bunnyhoping be not that hard if you practice a hour or a few a day. Practice makes perfect. And if you keep on failing reread the sentence before this.
Also to note if you remove bunnhopping us good players will just annihilate aliens about 5 times quicker :o
<!--quoteo(post=1619325:date=Apr 6 2007, 06:18 PM:name=KainTSA)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(KainTSA @ Apr 6 2007, 06:18 PM) [snapback]1619325[/snapback]</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec--> Also I don't know about the great majority being able to do it. I hardly EVER see it from non-clanners. <b>So if you learn it, good for you. If you don't, rely more on ambush and strategy.</b> <!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I consider myself one of those "rare" middle ground bhopers. On a scale of 1 to 10, my bhop is about a 6 or 7 on a good day. This is without scripts and only with MWHEELDOWN = +jump, cuz my server disallows scripting. About the non-clanners not doing it...I have to strongly disagree. At least where I play (Jigglypuff's NS Jigglyroom), 50% bhop. 98% of the regulars bhop to some degree. Personally, bhop is essential to my play, including marine (though I have yet to learn the double jump), and I am not a clanner, but frequent public player.
<!--quoteo(post=1621528:date=Apr 17 2007, 04:24 PM:name=Haze)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Haze @ Apr 17 2007, 04:24 PM) [snapback]1621528[/snapback]</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec--> Theres just no good solid reason for bunnyhopping. Its a skill that, once obtained, stays obtained - its not massively improved on aside from the 'two step' that you learn as a marine. Since it is widely regarded as a necessary skill to have in order to play the game successfully (especially in a competitive environment), coupled with the mindlessness of its execution once learned, I believe that it should be removed, and the skulk's ground speed increased as a compensation. <i>IF</i> it were a skill that was somewhat difficult to master and truly had many, many different levels and degrees of a skilled execution, then I would fully support its continued implementation. HOWEVER, it is NOT. <!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Bunnyhopping is not a required component of gameplay at all, not even competitive gameplay. Many of my clanmates can't bunnyhop and a couple are still considered good players. Its a skill based movement that is difficult to master, yet the average pubber can still achieve some speed increase just by jumping repeatedly. Its exactly the same way that blinking is easy to learn and difficult to master. Everyone knows to bind the jump key, they just have to learn the movements related to it, the same movements that improve your usage of energy while blinking.
<!--quoteo(post=1621600:date=Apr 17 2007, 10:03 PM:name=Golden)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Golden @ Apr 17 2007, 10:03 PM) [snapback]1621600[/snapback]</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec--> Many of my clanmates can't bunnyhop and a couple are still considered good players. <!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
The energy and time you use the write in this topic, could have been spent to learn bhopping.
But sure, since we want devs the dumb the game up for us, make bhopping easier(i dont care if they do so, just find it pretty retarded to read these topics over and over again).
<!--quoteo(post=1619325:date=Apr 6 2007, 02:18 PM:name=KainTSA)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(KainTSA @ Apr 6 2007, 02:18 PM) [snapback]1619325[/snapback]</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec--> I've been playing for around 4 years and never even bothered to try to learn b hopping. Its something involving crouch+jump? I don't even know. I never felt the need for it. If you find yourself charging down a long hall and you need bhop...well there's probably something else wrong with your strategy. I'm sure it comes in useful sometimes but I don't consider it a fundamental skill.
Also I don't know about the great majority being able to do it. I hardly EVER see it from non-clanners. <b>So if you learn it, good for you. If you don't, rely more on ambush and strategy.</b> <!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> QFT and concurance.
Ok, how do you cornerbite well? I can hit at a range well enough and understand how the conical bit works but I never get reliable hits with cornerbite.
Comments
go
It's not like it's going to hurt those that already know how to bunnyhop. That and it would help bring more people to that level. I don't have a problem with this bunnyhopping, but for the others, I'm sure it would help them a lot.
<b>edit: this discussion is not here to secure the widely known fact that after two hours of solidly practicing the bunnyhop, that it is learned and cemented in your memory as a staple of your skills. It is here to question the bunnyhop's continued existence in the natural-selection universe. I have not really seen a good argument as to why bunny hop should remain in the game - seniority should not and <u>does not</u> apply here.</b> The only serious reason and argument I could find in favor of bunnyhopping is that it increases your speed, making you harder to hit and making it easier to get around on the map. A simple base speed increase of the skulk's movement speed to compensate for the lack of a bunnyhop would make up for everything. What truly would be the difference, and would you really feel like NS is missing something because you now have to spend less time focusing on navigating the map using an awkward movement system but now rather can actually play the game using the forward key at times?
I saw you working on your bhop on ze_ today
keep at it <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/tsa.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid="::tsa::" border="0" alt="tsa.gif" />
[edit]
hurry up and host that listen server already!
[/edit]
even so, you could still get a speed / distance increase once
That's not true at all. There is an enormous depth to bunnyhopping as a skill. Learning the basic movements is like being able to basically point your crosshair in the direction of the enemies. How quickly and reliably can you attain maximum speed? How well can you navigate complex terrain while maintaining speed? How well can you look around, even aim and fight while bunnyhopping?
Imagine if walking in another game, the simple act of moving forward, required all the movements you need to bunny hop in this game. Thats what I mean by 'its a basic skill' - its annoying to have to learn for two hours of my time straight just to get down how to walk in Natural-Selection. If it were removed and skulk speed increased instead to compensate, then there would be little to no noticeable change in Natural-Selection gameplay.
<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I'd doesn't take any specific practice unless you want to. Just try to hop the hallways you're walking nowadays. There should be a plenty of them.
Low skill skulks seem to rock low skill marines quite often. Speed increase wouldn't really help that.
I'd be fine with bhop removal if someone was able to create another evenly interesting and creative way of movement. Just removing it would be dumbing down the game. Replacing it with something with better learning curve would be improving.
Imagine if walking in another game, the simple act of moving forward, required all the movements you need to bunny hop in this game. Thats what I mean by 'its a basic skill' - its annoying to have to learn for two hours of my time straight just to get down how to walk in Natural-Selection. If it were removed and skulk speed increased instead to compensate, then there would be little to no noticeable change in Natural-Selection gameplay.
<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->the widely known fact that after two hours of solidly practicing the bunnyhop, that it is learned and cemented in your memory as a staple of your skills.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I very rarely encounter a skulk who has mastered bunnyhopping(and I play against pretty good players). In fact, a check of cl_showspeed shows that I can't do it perfectly(3 jumps to 500+) myself.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec--> Imagine if walking in another game, the simple act of moving forward, required all the movements you need to bunny hop in this game. Thats what I mean by 'its a basic skill' - its annoying to have to learn for two hours of my time straight just to get down how to walk in Natural-Selection.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Bunnyhopping is far from a required skill to play Natural-Selection.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec--> If it were removed and skulk speed increased instead to compensate, then there would be little to no noticeable change in Natural-Selection gameplay.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I don't really like insulting people in my posts..but this is the part where I realized you have no idea what you're talking about.
If skulk base speed was bumped up to 500 and bunnyhopping removed....let's see
Assuming everybody you played against before was a perfect bunnyhopper.
Skulks in close quarters would be able to go around marines in circles at almost double the rate they do now.
An ambushing skulk(too close to really bunnyhop) would get to the marine near-instantly.
Skulks could jump out of vents(wall-running included) and basically fly a good distance
etc
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec--> IF it were a skill that was somewhat difficult to master and truly had many, many different levels and degrees of a skilled execution, then I would fully support its continued implementation.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Thanks.
<!--quoteo(post=1621541:date=Apr 17 2007, 04:09 PM:name=a_civilian)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(a_civilian @ Apr 17 2007, 04:09 PM) [snapback]1621541[/snapback]</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->There is an enormous depth to bunnyhopping as a skill. How quickly and reliably can you attain maximum speed? How well can you navigate complex terrain while maintaining speed? How well can you look around, even aim and fight while bunnyhopping?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Agreed on all counts.
Alien bunnyhopping is just another in NS' long list of Do Today, Master Tomorrow tasks. Huge to my enjoyment doing it is that, after years of doing it, I've yet to decide I'm finished improving upon my ability.
That having been said, I think the game would gain more than it would lose by making it easier to perform.
The main point of this is that these example skills are able to be picked up and learned relatively quickly by new players while still maintaining a large enough margin for expert players to be considerately better at them. Bunnyhopping is frustrating to learn (I <u>know</u> there is more than one person like me that finds it difficult to pick up!) and combined with the fact that it is considered concrete to standard alien gameplay is what turns it to a mess.
If there were a way to implement bunnyhopping so it were extremely easy to pick up, but difficult to master and left room for improvement, I would be all for it. But this rotating the mouse and strafing, how much and how little, not using my forward key - I'm concentrating on it all so much that I'm getting obliterated while trying to play. I should be able to perform an amateur bunnyhop within a day of playing NS when someone tells me how. Like with blinking:
-"How do I fly around like that?"
--"Oh, hit your reload key, it jets you forward."
-"Awesome!"
--"Use it for hit and run attacks."
A new player picks it up immediately. When someone tries to explain bunny hopping to you - hell, I couldn't learn without a damn flash diagram I found on the internet, and I still suck.
My bottom line is, if it cannot be made easier to pick up, then it should be removed. I am in favor of improving the skill and integrating it FULLY with NS, or NOT AT ALL, not "well, the HL engine just <i>does it,</i> so... meh". Make it part of the game, or patch it up where the engine fails.
Also to note if you remove bunnhopping us good players will just annihilate aliens about 5 times quicker :o
Also I don't know about the great majority being able to do it. I hardly EVER see it from non-clanners.
<b>So if you learn it, good for you. If you don't, rely more on ambush and strategy.</b>
<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I consider myself one of those "rare" middle ground bhopers. On a scale of 1 to 10, my bhop is about a 6 or 7 on a good day. This is without scripts and only with MWHEELDOWN = +jump, cuz my server disallows scripting. About the non-clanners not doing it...I have to strongly disagree. At least where I play (Jigglypuff's NS Jigglyroom), 50% bhop. 98% of the regulars bhop to some degree. Personally, bhop is essential to my play, including marine (though I have yet to learn the double jump), and I am not a clanner, but frequent public player.
thats what i'd say
Theres just no good solid reason for bunnyhopping. Its a skill that, once obtained, stays obtained - its not massively improved on aside from the 'two step' that you learn as a marine. Since it is widely regarded as a necessary skill to have in order to play the game successfully (especially in a competitive environment), coupled with the mindlessness of its execution once learned, I believe that it should be removed, and the skulk's ground speed increased as a compensation. <i>IF</i> it were a skill that was somewhat difficult to master and truly had many, many different levels and degrees of a skilled execution, then I would fully support its continued implementation. HOWEVER, it is NOT.
<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Bunnyhopping is not a required component of gameplay at all, not even competitive gameplay. Many of my clanmates can't bunnyhop and a couple are still considered good players. Its a skill based movement that is difficult to master, yet the average pubber can still achieve some speed increase just by jumping repeatedly. Its exactly the same way that blinking is easy to learn and difficult to master. Everyone knows to bind the jump key, they just have to learn the movements related to it, the same movements that improve your usage of energy while blinking.
To Smood: We're not the ones whining.
Many of my clanmates can't bunnyhop and a couple are still considered good players.
<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
zz like who
zz like who
<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
slurpy
<img src="http://www.dbzgtlegacy.com/animatedgifs/ani-songoku_dizzy.gif" border="0" alt="IPB Image" />
slurpy
<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
He isn't as good as Green Ninjalo okay. He was CAL I dod.
But sure, since we want devs the dumb the game up for us, make bhopping easier(i dont care if they do so, just find it pretty retarded to read these topics over and over again).
I've been playing for around 4 years and never even bothered to try to learn b hopping. Its something involving crouch+jump? I don't even know. I never felt the need for it. If you find yourself charging down a long hall and you need bhop...well there's probably something else wrong with your strategy. I'm sure it comes in useful sometimes but I don't consider it a fundamental skill.
Also I don't know about the great majority being able to do it. I hardly EVER see it from non-clanners.
<b>So if you learn it, good for you. If you don't, rely more on ambush and strategy.</b>
<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
QFT and concurance.