How do you prove, you AREN'T cheating?

MaverickkMaverickk Join Date: 2006-12-03 Member: 58857Members Posts: 119
Long post ahead

Background information;

- I've been known to tell my fair share of white lies. Generally the kind that hurt no one but myself in the end, and 99.9% of the time they never are something of vital importance (like saying you saw this movie, or know this song really well, ish like that.)

- In a few games in the past, online, multi player, yes I have both experimented with and used, cheats. (*Note* not in Natural Selection). We're talking games from years and years ago. Hell one of them being Diablo 2. Anyone whose anyone knows a lot of people use some of the more, innocent hacks, such as maphack, in that game. I know, that doesn't justify it but it's just a point of how this isn't some kind of ######-you-over cheating style going on.

- I am currently on my second steam account. My first one, was one of the original Steam accounts. Back when Steam was going into it's public beta phase, if I remember right they had a free sign up thing going on, so I signed up a Steam account and it came with Half Life 1. Which in case gave me access to ton's of other stuff, CS 1.6 for example. Point being here that, I felt it should be known I lost my first account. Yes on stupid night me and some friends decided to take out these two cheaters on some random CS 1.6 server with their very own cheats. It was fun. My friends wisely never touched cheats after that. I played with it a little more that night after they were gone, but no further. Needless to say that was enough to get me VAC'ed, account gone. So I am on my second account, which has never touched a hack or cheat for any kind of Steam/HL1 game (including Natural Selection).

Personality

- I'll admit I'm like most people, I hate losing. Now, I don't so much mind losing in say, a team vs team game of some kind, in some video game. It's 1 versus 1's that really piss me off losing. My friends don't see it as a bad thing, since you're playing against and/or with friends the winning or losing shouldn't matter. And they're right. It's an ego thing. When I make mistakes, which are quite a many, I am more ###### at myself for making an error so easily than I am at losing itself.


The Story - MEAT AND POTATOES THERE OF

For a while now, my closest friend, due to all the above mistakes I've made and personality flaws I just can't seem to fix, is convinced to the bone, I cheat in Natural Selection.

If you've seen some of my Tech Support threads, you know my system isn't very stellar. Some may say that's even more reason to cheat, to be on a level playing field with the average player. But I honestly am happy with my frame rates. With config.cfg tweaks, low polygon models, no ambient sound,no music etc I gain a nice boost in frame rates.

I'll admit, (there's a recurring theme), when I'm playing CO_ (save the tomato throwing) it sucks seeing someone who is really, really good at Kharaa go 200+ kills to 1-10 deaths. You wanna know how they do it. What tricks are they using. Theres a glitch, there's something benefiting them. You're thinking that, at least some of us have. Then you look at how they do it. The actions required. You may not be able to do so well doing the same but it can be done by a human without assistance.

That brings me to the ever "oh god is he going to get to it?!??!" point; My best friend thinks I cheat at NS. One of our favorite little past times to do in NS when no server has people on it we want to play, we find one of our favorite servers that is empty and we 1v1. He practices Kharaa usually. I stick to Marines, I need to learn to aim better. Usually these are quite fun and can last a few hours. Until i get a few too many suspicious shots. Shots that I honestly generally have no explanation of sometimes. Sometimes I do, such as I could hear him moving, or heard the Parasite and panned around the ceiling till I saw him, or I caught the corner of his body sticking out of a tunnel. Until now.

Yes, yes I am getting to the point.

That was until now. We did our typical 1v1 for a while, till someone random joined. No problem, my friend wanted to watch while I killed the guy a few times. I accidentally killed my friend (who was just running around the map still on the Kharaa team watching me and the random guy fight). So he went to the RR and Spectated. Spectated me from First Person mode.

For a while it was just Me, vs the Random Guy (me Rine him Alien). Went alright. I got some kills, he got some. I was slightly higher in kills since the map was the same and round was the same prior to him joining. A few more people joined, this is when I was told things were getting fishy. Things such as "how did you suddenly stop welding the Command Center and/or Armory to quickly look up once or two shoot and kill the skulk?". I really had no answer. Or at least none that wasn't explained in some other manner. He wasn't cloaked, since I had Scan Area going off whenever he got near, and he wasn't cloaked to begin with IIRC. My friend says my teammate at the time (at this point it evolved into 2 versus 2, my friend still spectating), wasn't near by to give warning via weapons fire, jumping around, or the sounds of him dying. My friend also says the skulk in question had Silence so there was no way I heard him (IIRC CO_ Silence is the full upgrade of it so it's perfectly quiet).

That left me with just one question I can't answer; How do you prove to someone, you aren't cheating?

- My friend did demo the game. I did not.

- My friend says, while he was demoing, such shots where I hit a skulk or lerker in similar suspicious situations, were when he was demoing but had not yet told me (we were on TeamSpeak2 at the time while playing). He says however, after he told me of that situation while the game continued, I suddenly stopped doing such activities and played worse.

- He's sent the demo to the owners of the server we play on, they play there several times a week and they are friendly nice folks. He says its for an impartial judgement.

- Again I have no demo to hand in. And if I were to just go out, make a demo of me playing a game it could be negated by some one (anyone) saying; "Well you could have just turned off any cheats you were using and played" or "You played average/badly on purpose" or any number of valid reasons that would point to an inadequate demo as proof.

- I can't get a demo from my friend. Since I strongly feel I was not cheating, there's no real reason for him to share it with me. Or at least, least assumptions bite me in the ###### again, that's what he meant.

- Note, no my current Steam account has not been banned. I'm in trouble with Valve, and nor have I been banned from any Natural Selection servers. Never had a single person, other than my friend, accuse me of outside help.

- Note #2, again I'll admit, it can look suspicious (it being, that I might be cheating again in the present time, not just this situation) given my past brush ups with cheating in games. Some very mild, some blatantly hacking. But all in the past.

Other
This isn't to air out some bullish forum drama. I just illustrated what you can consider, a hypothetical situation, with two hypothetical unnamed people. What would you to do prove your innocence?

This probably won't help but, below is my NS install;

NS 3.1.3 via NSArmsLab.com

Config.cfg - my config.cfg file

Userconfig.cfg - only one thing in there, to help with my audio problems in NS.

Knife Gaming Pack - no ambient sounds and whatnot

Low Poly Marine Structures - crunchy and others low poly rine stuff

Low Poly Player Model Pack - belief also by cruncy, more low poly stuff

Low Poly World Model Pack - same as above

Small Fonts - name says it all

Shaz Sprite Pack w/ Hud Vol 1 - Shaz's sprites and hud

Background for the in game browser

NS Steam Skin - broken atm but some have said a few file edits can fix it, haven't gotten to it

The hard part is, how do you prove you use what you are using? A condump? Other than physically letting someone go through your HDD for files pertaining to NS there's no real way to prove you aren't cheating, to my knowledge.

Which leads me back to my question; how do you prove you aren't cheating? (in some kind of hypothetical situation)

Thank you for taking the time to read all this.
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Comments

  • lynXijlynXij Join Date: 2004-02-07 Member: 26175Members, NS1 Playtester, Constellation Posts: 57
    Submit your demos to the demodetectives!
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  • Jmmsbnd007Jmmsbnd007 Join Date: 2002-11-24 Member: 9793Banned, Constellation Posts: 955
    edited January 2007
    I charge negotiable rates to go on pubs with your name (then people will definitely think that you don't cheat)
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  • lynXijlynXij Join Date: 2004-02-07 Member: 26175Members, NS1 Playtester, Constellation Posts: 57
    QUOTE(Jmmsbnd007 @ Jan 22 2007, 01:08 AM) »

    I charge negotiable rates to go on pubs with your name (then people will definitely think that you don't cheat)


    Or do...
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  • Jmmsbnd007Jmmsbnd007 Join Date: 2002-11-24 Member: 9793Banned, Constellation Posts: 955
    edited January 2007
    QUOTE(lynXij @ Jan 22 2007, 12:09 AM) »

    Or do...

    Listen pal, just because we took bribes doesn't mean that I can't occasionally have fun on NSArmslab.
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  • ChimpZealotChimpZealot The Elite Demo Detective Join Date: 2002-11-30 Member: 10315Members, NS1 Playtester, Constellation Posts: 481
    QUOTE(lynXij @ Jan 21 2007, 10:07 PM) »

    Submit your demos to the demodetectives!

    I approve of this post. See sig for info (I promise I'll update verdicts sometime in the next week).
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  • SariselSarisel .::&#39; ( O ) &#39;;:-. .-.:;&#39; ( O ) &#39;::. Join Date: 2003-07-30 Member: 18557Members, Constellation Posts: 2,192
    Invite your friend over (or meet at a LAN center) and play as well as you did before his very eyes. There's no other way to "prove" that you're not cheating, since there is a huge list of ways to cheat. Then again, if your friend can't take your word for it, maybe he's not really your friend after all.
  • MrBananaManMrBananaMan Join Date: 2005-02-26 Member: 42562Members Posts: 182
    edited January 2007
    how do you tell if someone is using hacks? you use them yourself so you know what to look for.

    gg half life before steam, helped me learn a valuable lesson in life: know your enemy.



    also, never seen someone care so much about not hacking. there was safety ent after safety net in there, trying to make him look really innocent, trying to hide something? sounds like a hacker to me. you dont need to prove you arent a hacker. you guys know what im saying?


    bro you are overdoing it.
  • F4tManMGS2F4tManMGS2 Join Date: 2004-04-10 Member: 27842Members Posts: 193
    edited January 2007
    Other people are idiots.*

    Ignore what they say.


    While you're at it, keep in mind that "truth" is a contested concept, and is heavily defined by the "winners". This being said, the more people who believe in something the more true it becomes (wikiality). Whether or not you are hacking starts to lose importance as more and more people start to doubt you. Eventually, it comes to a point where you could use hacks, or not use hacks, but people would say the same things, and thus it would be widely regarded as truth, meaning you do hack.

    While these two points contradict, you need to understand that this is a game.

    People hate losing. They will cite whatever bullish reason they can to explain why they're losing. Hacks, lag, FPS drop, spawnkills, etc.

    If you don't want people to think you hack, play like a nub. There is no other way.




    *not referring to the people in this post.
  • MasterPTGMasterPTG Join Date: 2006-11-30 Member: 58780Members Posts: 283
    A) meet at LAN center
    B) rip his face off (digitally)

    the end =D.
  • ultranewbultranewb Pro Bug Hunter Join Date: 2004-07-21 Member: 30026Members Posts: 276 Fully active user
    C) Keep him for 4 years so he can go on Oprah later
  • MaverickkMaverickk Join Date: 2006-12-03 Member: 58857Members Posts: 119
    yea, ive realized theres nothing i can do to prove myself (lan not an option)

    sucks really, do nothing wrong and no matter what theres no proving it

    i really liked NS too
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  • SariselSarisel .::&#39; ( O ) &#39;;:-. .-.:;&#39; ( O ) &#39;::. Join Date: 2003-07-30 Member: 18557Members, Constellation Posts: 2,192
    What does liking NS have to do with your "friend" thinking that you are hacking? Completely besides the point..
  • MrBananaManMrBananaMan Join Date: 2005-02-26 Member: 42562Members Posts: 182
    edited January 2007
    QUOTE(Maverickk @ Jan 22 2007, 01:56 AM) »

    yea, ive realized theres nothing i can do to prove myself (lan not an option)

    sucks really, do nothing wrong and no matter what theres no proving it

    i really liked NS too


    wth? either you are retarded or you ARE cheating. you are bad.
  • MaverickkMaverickk Join Date: 2006-12-03 Member: 58857Members Posts: 119
    Eh, it's kinda like, say for example you play a game you like and some friends really like. Now for whatever reasons they stop playing (you along with them) or they don't play with you anymore, which may or may not make the game kinda boring to play all alone.

    Don't get me wrong, I like NS. I like it more than I have other the years since now there's all kinds of low poly stuff and fps tweaks for a config setup to really boost play-a-bility for low end PC users. I dare say I can do well for myself with my PC and the config i posted above. but it's boring playing alone. random public servers, some people half way across the globe (not that any of my buddies were neighbors, some were canadians, americans, etc, myself being american). so you can see how even a really fun game is just so boring alone.

    hell i don't mind being accused a hacker as much as not having any proof other than being right next to that person IRL playing a vanilla install of NS on their PC. Other than that it's just potentially some demos you may never see that is always your word against someone elses ;\
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  • TerRaKanETerRaKanE Join Date: 2003-05-14 Member: 16292Members, Constellation Posts: 166
    Maybe your friend should watch some competetive demo's. But then again, no. He would probably blame the whole competetive community as cheaters.

    But hey, I have no idea how good you are. I cant remember I have EVER blamed anyeone a cheater in ns...hmpf...
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  • Voodo_HUNVoodo_HUN Join Date: 2006-11-29 Member: 58773Members Posts: 153
    if you record a demo, yourself it records the cheat too (if it has any visual options set on GUI) so if you cheat it can be seen on it. record one while you kill like that and send it to your friend(or ex friend maybe) and tell him to get a cheat for test, he starts it, record a demo, so he can see that cheats can be seen ingame view if its recorded by the cheater.
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  • pSyk0mAnpSyk0mAn Nerdish by Nature Germany Join Date: 2003-08-07 Member: 19166Members, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Silver, NS2 Community Developer Posts: 1,725 Advanced user
    @topic-question:
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  • MasterPTGMasterPTG Join Date: 2006-11-30 Member: 58780Members Posts: 283
    edited January 2007
    If you don't cheat, have some good NS players own him and/or you with the other friends spec'ing. ... It's not too difficult to see if someone is legitly owning you, unless they're...very very good. Then...you may need to watch a bit longer :x.
  • CxwfCxwf Join Date: 2003-02-05 Member: 13168Members, Constellation Posts: 1,618
    QUOTE(Maverickk @ Jan 21 2007, 11:47 PM) »

    A few more people joined, this is when I was told things were getting fishy. Things such as "how did you suddenly stop welding the Command Center and/or Armory to quickly look up once or two shoot and kill the skulk?". I really had no answer. Or at least none that wasn't explained in some other manner. He wasn't cloaked, since I had Scan Area going off whenever he got near, and he wasn't cloaked to begin with IIRC. My friend says my teammate at the time (at this point it evolved into 2 versus 2, my friend still spectating), wasn't near by to give warning via weapons fire, jumping around, or the sounds of him dying. My friend also says the skulk in question had Silence so there was no way I heard him (IIRC CO_ Silence is the full upgrade of it so it's perfectly quiet).


    Psychology. The same way you win a game of rock-paper-scissors, especially if you already know he has silence. He randomly chooses to come into marine start from direction 1 or direction 2, and you randomly choose which way to look while welding, and hope you choose the same one. Then you randomly decide that you've been welding for long enough to be good bait, and its a good time to look up and see if anyone's about to bite you.

    Thats exactly the same game you have to play anytime you're trying to build a Res node alone, with a skulk in the vents. When is he going to come out? Do you stare at the vent all day and wait for backup? Do you tap the RT just a moment and see if he jumps out at the sound? If you're the skulks, do you climb out of the vent at the first sound of building? Or do you wait a few seconds to make sure he's serious?

    Sometimes the marine wins the mind game, sometimes the skulk wins. You can't accuse a marine of hacking because he won the mind-game once or twice, and it becomes even easier if you're playing against someone you know well (like your friend) and you can predict their responses.
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  • ThaldarinThaldarin Alonzi&#33; Join Date: 2003-07-15 Member: 18173Members, Constellation Posts: 6,132
    Innocent until proven guilty. Quite simply you don't have to prove you aren't cheating, wait until someone can prove you are and show you how they know you are, then defend yourself with print screens of your directories etc.
    blah blah blah
  • DuoGodOfDeathDuoGodOfDeath Join Date: 2002-08-01 Member: 1044Members Posts: 617
    Last person to hack in this game was back in 2.01 days. No one hacks in this game and even if they did they still suck at it so much they cant even get a positive ratio.
  • HassaanHassaan Join Date: 2005-01-09 Member: 33976Members Posts: 111
    OK here is what you do:

    First, install hacks for NS. Then let your friend spectate and demo you with hacks.
    Then, you uninstall the hacks and play again and repeat.
    Ask your friend to compare the demos side by side.
  • ThaldarinThaldarin Alonzi&#33; Join Date: 2003-07-15 Member: 18173Members, Constellation Posts: 6,132
    QUOTE(DuoGodOfDeath @ Jan 22 2007, 07:38 PM) »

    Last person to hack in this game was back in 2.01 days. No one hacks in this game and even if they did they still suck at it so much they cant even get a positive ratio.


    I've seen a couple in the past few months.
    blah blah blah
  • UnderwhelmedUnderwhelmed DemoDetective #?&#33; Join Date: 2006-09-19 Member: 58026Members, Constellation Posts: 756 Advanced user
    DemoDetectives. See the sig.
    Anyways, you have no obligation to prove you're not cheating - it's theirs to prove that you are. Unless you're some amazingly talented player, it's usually fairly easy to tell if somebody is aimbotting or not (And if you are, I'm sure some teams would like to speak to you...). Out of curiosity, which server is this on? Some are fairly good at distinguishing the good players from the cheaters, while others (On|e for example) are are laughable.
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  • DC_DarklingDC_Darkling Join Date: 2003-07-10 Member: 18068Members, Constellation, Squad Five Blue, Squad Five Silver Posts: 4,381 Advanced user
    I disagree on the run with and without cheat demos cause you will get ya ###### banned. (VACs on be default)

    Its true, innocent untill proven guilty. I saw "fishy" moves from players games. However after observing them a while I saw they used brains. Thats a 90% chance (atleast) that the player is good. Its not just sound, its shadows, etc.
    Also good players do "suddenly" look around. there is a x amount of time good players guess by feeling. In that timeframe another player will jump out. (its a high chance)

    Really I don't see any problems here.

    Pff.. I "solved" this by blatently admitting anything before they even start.
    *gets killed*. "omg.. lies, hax, rates, reg, abuse"
    Followed by a *gets killed* "Omg.. ALL icons hax" (I got a icon myself as constie)
    Also shouting a spare time in the allsay that "all consties get buildin MT/SoF" is brilliant.

    Have not been acused since. tounge.gif
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  • ChimpZealotChimpZealot The Elite Demo Detective Join Date: 2002-11-30 Member: 10315Members, NS1 Playtester, Constellation Posts: 481
    QUOTE
    if you record a demo, yourself it records the cheat too (if it has any visual options set on GUI) so if you cheat it can be seen on it. record one while you kill like that and send it to your friend(or ex friend maybe) and tell him to get a cheat for test, he starts it, record a demo, so he can see that cheats can be seen ingame view if its recorded by the cheater.


    Incorrect. A demo does not record anything like that (or for that matter, custom sprites or models).
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  • F4tManMGS2F4tManMGS2 Join Date: 2004-04-10 Member: 27842Members Posts: 193
    I love how people are saying "innocent until proven guilty" and all that jazz, despite the fact that servers these days aren't run anything like the American government. I once got banned from a server for giving the owner "legal advice"; you ###### kill the owner with a knife, and you'll get your ###### banned for hacking. Proof? Rofl.
  • Splinter_SteveSplinter_Steve Join Date: 2005-03-20 Member: 45881Members Posts: 310
    Join an ANSL team and submit your match demo to detective Chimp Zealot.
  • CxwfCxwf Join Date: 2003-02-05 Member: 13168Members, Constellation Posts: 1,618
    Well, the tricky part is he says the Friend has the demo that proves he's hacking, and for some reason WONT SHARE IT WITH HIM so he can see what hes being accused of. That statement sounds bewildering to me...why wouldnt the friend let you see what he saw?

    Really, if your friend won't even show you the evidence he has against you, he's not much of a friend.
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  • kiddokiddo Join Date: 2007-01-07 Member: 59503Members Posts: 74
    QUOTE(F4tManMGS2 @ Jan 22 2007, 10:05 PM) »

    I love how people are saying "innocent until proven guilty" and all that jazz, despite the fact that servers these days aren't run anything like the American government.


    you mean, guilty until proven innocent. smile-fix.gif

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