I have never once noticed this to be a problem. As has been stated, aliens do have a few long distance weapons. Acid Rockets, Spores, Spit. None of these are particularly effective.
Neither is the knife. It is ONLY a last-ditch weapon. To remove the knife damage versus aliens is basically the equivalent of saying "We, as the aliens, would like the marines to just fall on the ground and drop all their weapons when we get within 5 feet of them."
You can say what you want about 3 knife hits being overpowered. It is nearly impossible to score 3 knife hits on a rabid puppy thats circling you and biting your ankles off. If an alien gets hurt to below 30 hp and continues running in a straight line at the marine, his dumb a** deserves to get knife killed.
Don't you think that if the knife was a problem, the dev team might, just MIGHT, have noticed it in the nearly two years that I've been playing? The only thing they have ever changed on it in that time is the range. They quite obviously think that the knife is fine how it is.
Stop posting on this board every time something happens to you that you don't like. "Oh no, a fade owned me, they must be over powered." "Oh no, I got knifed and humiliated, the knife must be too powerful." "Oh no, the expensive grenade launcher destroys my free alien, it must be too powerful." I'm just plain sick of it.
Luckily 99% of marines spend all their time using the lmg and pistol so they dont know when, where, or how to use the knife.
Don't any of you guys realize that you are comparing marines THIRD attack to aliens MAIN attack? Not only is the knife very comparable to bite, but marines have TWO weapons that are better than the knife.
However since most people dont realize how good the knife is I hope flayra will spend his time worrying about bigger issues.
Lee, the reason everyone thinks the knife is so weak is because they never bother to learn how to use it. Most players pass it off as a pathetic humiliation kill and only use it jokingly. If you get good with knife aim it is not difficult at all to kill a skulk.
<!--QuoteBegin-Zek+Mar 16 2004, 11:40 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Zek @ Mar 16 2004, 11:40 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Lee, the reason everyone thinks the knife is so weak is because they never bother to learn how to use it. Most players pass it off as a pathetic humiliation kill and only use it jokingly. If you get good with knife aim it is not difficult at all to kill a skulk. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> Hogwash.
The fact is a good skulk has every advantage to take over a knife, if he loses to one it's his own fault.
Just time when you attack, as you are faster, and the knife will never kill you.
<!--QuoteBegin-Forlorn+Mar 16 2004, 12:27 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Forlorn @ Mar 16 2004, 12:27 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin-Zek+Mar 16 2004, 11:40 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Zek @ Mar 16 2004, 11:40 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Lee, the reason everyone thinks the knife is so weak is because they never bother to learn how to use it. Most players pass it off as a pathetic humiliation kill and only use it jokingly. If you get good with knife aim it is not difficult at all to kill a skulk. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Hogwash.
The fact is a good skulk has every advantage to take over a knife, if he loses to one it's his own fault.
Just time when you attack, as you are faster, and the knife will never kill you. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> Agreed. But I guess there's a portion of this community that wants to turn the aliens into a bunch of bumm-rushing zergs. As long as they can get next to you, they deserve the kill and there's shouldn't be anything the marine can do about it. A good skulk can run rings around a marine with his knife and never get hit.
Let's leave the strawman OUT of this debate please. Whether or not a person believes a skulk can kill a marine with bite easily has absolutly NO bearing on this debate. Knife is too strong because it runs contrary to the PRINCIPLE of the game which states that marines should not have powerful melee weapons.
What do I define as 'powerful'? I define that as any weapon that can kill a skulk in a very few number of hits. It takes as little as THREE hits to kill a skulk with knife from full health, which means it does as much damage as an LMG and pistol bullet combined. With a ROF that is faster than bite, I consider this overpowered. Just because it hasn't been fully exploited doesn't mean it isn't overpowered.
Knife damage was NOT increased to give marines a better weapon to attack aliens with, damage was increased for marines to kill chambers without needing to waste ammo. Unfortunately Flayra neglectd to consider the impact this would have on people using knife as a weapon against aliens.
Some things are just not meant to be in the game. Someone may think driveable vehicles may be great, but they are not part of the game. Strong melee weapons for marines are NOT part of the game. Whine and complain if you like, but Flayra was the one who made that decision. I think people should respect it.
I was able to poor 1 lmg clip, 1 pistol clip into three seperate skulks (Tried to hit all of them at the same time.) Pulled out the knife and whipped em all into shreds with about 5% or so of my health left(Plus tagged.) I think if you run out of ammo, you should be dead.
Nobody's denying that a good skulk has the advantage over a marine who only knifes. That doesn't mean the knife isn't overpowered. Whether or not it is actually stronger than a skulk doesn't change the fact that it's an effective weapon; would you call Lerk Bite weak just because Skulk Bite is more powerful?
Just because a knifing marine is not more powerful than a skilled skulk doesn't mean that the knife isn't stronger than it should be. The fact that a marine has a reasonable chance of killing a skulk in melee(and yes, he does, whether or not you choose to admit it) goes against the design of the game. Marines are not supposed to have an effective melee weapon against aliens, and the knife is a powerful weapon when used correctly.
This isn't the same as saying that a marine should die automatically when the skulk gets close. You still have two guns; if you can't kill the skulk with 50 LMG and 10 pistol bullets, you should be dead. The fact that you can screw up all that and still win with a knife is ludicrous.
<!--QuoteBegin-Savant+Mar 16 2004, 12:43 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Savant @ Mar 16 2004, 12:43 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Let's leave the strawman OUT of this debate please. Whether or not a person believes a skulk can kill a marine with bite easily has absolutly NO bearing on this debate. Knife is too strong because it runs contrary to the PRINCIPLE of the game which states that marines should not have powerful melee weapons.
What do I define as 'powerful'? I define that as any weapon that can kill a skulk in a very few number of hits. It takes as little as THREE hits to kill a skulk with knife from full health, which means it does as much damage as an LMG and pistol bullet combined. With a ROF that is faster than bite, I consider this overpowered. Just because it hasn't been fully exploited doesn't mean it isn't overpowered.
Knife damage was NOT increased to give marines a better weapon to attack aliens with, damage was increased for marines to kill chambers without needing to waste ammo. Unfortunately Flayra neglectd to consider the impact this would have on people using knife as a weapon against aliens.
Some things are just not meant to be in the game. Someone may think driveable vehicles may be great, but they are not part of the game. Strong melee weapons for marines are NOT part of the game. Whine and complain if you like, but Flayra was the one who made that decision. I think people should respect it.
Regards,
Savant <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> Ok Savant, how about this. Next time you play a game, drop all your guns. Use nothing but your knife. How long do you think you'll survive? Better yet, command a game. Upgrade your team's armor full, get them HA, but no guns. Just as an experiment, ask them to all drop their guns. You think the marines will win? You think you'll have even a chance?? If you seriously think you would, I'd have to say you're not playing with very experienced aliens.
The idea was that marines should be ranged fighters, and aliens should be melee. This isn't an absolute. Aliens have acid rockets and gas, both ranged attacks. I've not seen any indication from Flayra that he wants them nerfed (although AR IMHO has been, I dont think that was the intention). Marines have just 1 little tiny melee weapon. And while it may be relatively strong against a skulk (I'd debate this with you, but for arguements sake) this is not a marine vs. skulk game! I don't understand all this "I need an uber zerg killing machine" logic I'm seeing lately. There are 3 other lifeforms, try using one sometime.
<!--QuoteBegin-Zek+Mar 16 2004, 12:59 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Zek @ Mar 16 2004, 12:59 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Nobody's denying that a good skulk has the advantage over a marine who only knifes. That doesn't mean the knife isn't more powerful than it should be. Whether or not it is actually stronger than a skulk doesn't change the fact that it's an effective weapon; would you call Lerk Bite weak just because Skulk Bite is more powerful?
Just because a knifing marine is not more powerful than a skilled skulk doesn't mean that the knife isn't stronger than it should be. The fact that a marine has a reasonable chance of killing a skulk in melee(and yes, he does, whether or not you choose to admit it) goes against the design of the game. Marines are not supposed to have an effective melee weapon against aliens, and the knife is a powerful weapon when used correctly.
This isn't the same as saying that a marine should die automatically when the skulk gets close. You still have two guns; if you can't kill the skulk with 50 LMG and 10 pistol bullets, you should be dead. The fact that you can screw up all that and still win with a knife is ludicrous. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> You're looking at it as if the knife and the skulk are in a vacuum. Yes, if a skulk stands still and while a marine knifes him, he will die. Sure it takes 3 swings.. so what?? You dont balance a game by looking at things like this. You have to look at the overall picture. Can marines even come anywhere near winning a game by running around with their knives out??!
Zues, that's a ridiculous argument. You don't have to be able to win the game with one weapon alone for it to be overpowered. Saying that is just ignoring the entire point of the 5 pages of this thread. No one is saying that knives can win a game single-handedly. We are, in a nutshell, saying that they are <i>more effective than they should be</i> against skulks. Is a knifing marine superior to a good skulk? No. Can marines win the game without guns? I should certainly hope not. Even so, the knife is too strong a melee weapon in the arsenal of a team that is not supposed to be able to compete at all in melee combat.
You can't just create your own ridiculous arguments, attach them to our side and then argue against them. That's an incredible logical fallacy and does not contribute to this discussion in the slightest.
<!--QuoteBegin-Zek+Mar 16 2004, 01:09 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Zek @ Mar 16 2004, 01:09 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Zues, that's a ridiculous argument. You don't have to be able to win the game with one weapon alone for it to be overpowered. Saying that is just ignoring the entire point of the 5 pages of this thread. No one is saying that knives can win a game single-handedly. We are, in a nutshell, saying that they are <i>more effective than they should be</i> against skulks. Is a knifing marine superior to a good skulk? No. Can marines win the game without guns? I should certainly hope not. Even so, the knife is too strong a melee weapon in the arsenal of a team that is not supposed to be able to compete at all in melee combat.
You can't just create your own ridiculous arguments, attach them to our side and then argue against them. That's an incredible logical fallacy and does not contribute to this discussion in the slightest.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Zek, you just made my point for me. My point is exactly that you do not balance a game by looking at one weapon vs one weapon. Or in this case, one weapon (the knife) against one life form (the skulk). Just because the knife can kill an alien does NOT make it over powered, not does the fact that it can kill a skulk in 3 swipes.
The knife is not over powered, I'm sorry, it just is not. Take away the marine's guns, and let the marine and skulk go one on one. I will tell you know that 99% of the time the skulk will win, if he does nor, then I'm sorry he is just a very bad player.
Now, if you're going to make the argument that the marine shoots you down to 30 health with his LMG, then when you get next to him (and he's assumably out of ammo) and he knifes you. Then what really killed you??
See, what I see here is that basically aliens want to be able to kill a marine once they get to him, and the marinee really shouldn't have any recourse. If the marine cant kill the alien before the alien closes the distance, then the marine should die. And I do not subscribe to that view point. If the alien can close the distance, then the <b>advantage</b> should be his, and it is, by a long shot.
If the marine can't get you below 30 hp with his full LMG and pistol clips, he should be dead. You can still shoot an alien at point blank.
I don't know what to tell you. Your definition of overpowered is flawed; you attach it to some arbitrary game scenario and assert that if the weapon doesn't win there, it's not overpowered. That doesn't make sense at all, and doesn't even come close to addressing what we're trying to argue.
<!--QuoteBegin-Zek+Mar 16 2004, 01:22 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Zek @ Mar 16 2004, 01:22 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->If the marine can't get you below 30 hp with his full LMG and pistol clips, he should be dead. You can still shoot an alien at point blank.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> This is the key disagreement. We just have opposing points of view. As I said, I think the alien should have the advantage at melee range, not the win. But the other thing that I would ask you to consider, is that you're looking at one very very tiny aspect of the game, and it really has very little effect on the overall game. I mean, you just don't see marines running around knifing the snot out of aliens. Again, I doubt we will agree, but I dont think this is a problem and I definately think there are much more severe problems that need addressing.
<!--QuoteBegin-[ev0l+--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> ([ev0l)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Zues,Mar 16 2004, 01:30 PM] I mean, you just don't see marines running around knifing the snot out of aliens. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Yep, I rarely see the "damage them alot and finish them with the knife on purpose" people playing. Most people don't want to _HAVE_ to pull out their knife to kill skulks. It still doesn't even sound like a smart thing to do, sounds to me like the "elite" players performing this are doing it for no other reason than to humiliate skulks. Even still, the people I have seen doing this aren't all that good at it.
It's not a huge issue Zues, but it's a very simple fix. 15 blast damage, problem solved.
Like I said, even without the knives aliens don't have an instant win at melee range. There's still jump-dodging and insane knockback that allow marines to shoot aliens dead even at melee range. And even if that crap was fixed marines can still shoot skulks that reach them; it's just harder, because as you said, skulks are supposed to have the advantage. With guns, aliens have the advantage but not the instant win at melee range. Knives allow marines to go into melee themselves and still have a decent shot against skulks, which is not as intended. Marines are not supposed to be viable in melee combat.
<!--QuoteBegin-Zek+Mar 16 2004, 01:48 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Zek @ Mar 16 2004, 01:48 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Marines are not supposed to be viable in melee combat.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> I would argue they are not. Again, in a one on one, no guns, skulk vs. knife, the marine will lose 99% of the time. I think you want to take away ALL melee from marines, and if that's the case, then take away gas and acid rockets. I mean, if we're gonna say melee is the sole realm of the aliens, then ranged should be the sole realm of the marines.
I still say this either a) a lack of skulk skill, b) the gun does 99% of the damage and the knife gets a swipe, or c) complete and utter luck (god knows I've gotten some lucky swings in <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin.gif' /><!--endemo--> )
Now on knockback, I think we can agree on that one. The marines should not <b>regain</b> the advantage as a result of the skulk doing his job (and him jumping around like a rabbit on PCP). But I think that's another thread... <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif' /><!--endemo-->
In your average NS game, it'll take three bites to kill a marine.
It takes three knife slashes to kill a skulk.
<b>OLO TEH NIVE IS NTO OVARPOWAR!!!!!</b>
BTW: This "skulk greater in melee" has no bearing on the knife.
1) A marine can time his knife slashes as well... and I'll be damned if the range between the knife and bite is any different. I actually find it much easier to knife things then bite them at 'range' simply because the knife looks farther out, making it easier to judge the distance.
2) It takes just as many knife slashes to kill a skulk as it does to kill a marine with bite (assuming your average NS game with armor 1 very early on)
3) Bite isn't disorienting. Knife makes your view go all wierd, and can pull you around.
Advantage knife. The good thing is that most marines just 'CHOPCHOPCHOPCHOPCHOP' with it.
<!--QuoteBegin-Zek+Mar 16 2004, 01:48 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Zek @ Mar 16 2004, 01:48 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Knives allow marines to go into melee themselves and still have a decent shot against skulks. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> I don't agree with the basis of your arguement. If you replaced 'decent' with 'almost non-existant' then I would agree.
<!--QuoteBegin-EEK+Mar 16 2004, 02:03 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (EEK @ Mar 16 2004, 02:03 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->1) A marine can time his knife slashes as well... and I'll be damned if the range between the knife and bite is any different. I actually find it much easier to knife things then bite them at 'range' simply because the knife looks farther out, making it easier to judge the distance. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Again, that's assuming the marine and the skulk stand face to face biting and knifing. That's so unrealistic it's not funny. You guys are using situations that will almost never happen to back up your argument. I'm telling you, take a marine, drop his guns, and put him face to face with a skulk, and the skulk will almost always win. Skulks can jump around, dodge left right, etc. They are much faster and more manueverable than a marine. If you want to talk about a skulk and a marine that just stand face to face and start knifing/biting, I will grant you the marine will win. IMHO this is not a problem, because that is not how a skulk should be used.
<!--QuoteBegin-EEK+Mar 16 2004, 02:03 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (EEK @ Mar 16 2004, 02:03 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->2) It takes just as many knife slashes to kill a skulk as it does to kill a marine with bite (assuming your average NS game with armor 1 very early on) <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Yes, but the skulk can take a bite, back off, heal (full health/cara) and come back. The marine cannot. He will need to get a med pack (2 res) to get back to 100% health, and another marine with a welder to get his armor back. Again, this is about strategy and skill, not zerg rushing.
<!--QuoteBegin-EEK+Mar 16 2004, 02:03 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (EEK @ Mar 16 2004, 02:03 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->3) Bite isn't disorienting. Knife makes your view go all wierd, and can pull you around.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
That's not true. Skulk bite knocks the marines back, which usually causes a degree of disorentiation, and certainly will put the marine <b>out</b> of the melee range of the skulk, which again gives the skulk a chance to manuever around, get behind the marine, jump on a wall, whatever.
Ack... almost sounds like I'm arguing <b>for</b> knockback. <!--emo&:0--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/wow.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='wow.gif' /><!--endemo-->
Gold, it's a matter of learning to use the knife instead of holding the button and swinging constantly hoping for a lucky kill, as most marines do. They don't understand that the knife is powerful so they use it as if the only way to kill a skulk is to get lucky.
<!--QuoteBegin-[ev0l+--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> ([ev0l)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Zues,Mar 16 2004, 02:16 PM] Again, that's assuming the marine and the skulk stand face to face biting and knifing. That's so unrealistic it's not funny. You guys are using situations that will almost never happen to back up your argument. I'm telling you, take a marine, drop his guns, and put him face to face with a skulk, and the skulk will almost always win. Skulks can jump around, dodge left right, etc. They are much faster and more manueverable than a marine. If you want to talk about a skulk and a marine that just stand face to face and start knifing/biting, I will grant you the marine will win. IMHO this is not a problem, because that is not how a skulk should be used. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> You can dodge all you want as a skulk, but when you go in for the bite you are vulnerable to being knifed. If the marine is aiming carefully instead of swinging like a tard, he'll be able to hit you as soon as you come into range. I'm not sure what their exact ranges are but it is very difficult to measure the distance out perfectly every time as a skulk so that he won't be able to reach you. I never said that knives only won in a head-on attacking contest; they are perfectly feasible on their own, IF you know how to use them.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Yes, but the skulk can take a bite, back off, heal (full health/cara) and come back. The marine cannot. He will need to get a med pack (2 res) to get back to 100% health, and another marine with a welder to get his armor back. Again, this is about strategy and skill, not zerg rushing.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> That's insane. Beating a marine in melee should not require a war of attrition involving going back to the hive or D chambers every time he hits you. If knives were weak, as you claimed, then aliens would be able to win in a melee contest without having to retreat to a healing station. If that is your only solution to beating a knifer then you seem to consider the knife to be a rather even match for a skulk.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->That's not true. Skulk bite knocks the marines back, which usually causes a degree of disorentiation, and certainly will put the marine <b>out</b> of the melee range of the skulk, which again gives the skulk a chance to manuever around, get behind the marine, jump on a wall, whatever.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Um, but what he said is still true; the knife hitting effect is possibly even more disorienting than knockback and it makes it much easier to follow up with a second knife hit. Knockback doesn't hit a marine on the ground far enough back to prevent a counter-attack, and the skulk won't always get the first hit. Only a newbie marine would not be able to turn to face the skulk as it maneuvered around him.
<!--QuoteBegin-Zek+Mar 16 2004, 02:25 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Zek @ Mar 16 2004, 02:25 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->You can dodge all you want as a skulk, but when you go in for the bite you are vulnerable to being knifed. If the marine is aiming carefully instead of swinging like a tard, he'll be able to hit you as soon as you come into range. I'm not sure what their exact ranges are but it is very difficult to measure the distance out perfectly every time as a skulk so that he won't be able to reach you. I never said that knives only won in a head-on attacking contest; they are perfectly feasible on their own, IF you know how to use them.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Personally, I try to bite the marine somewhere other than his cone of fire (be that his LMG, pistol, or knife). And I'm not sure what you mean by "perfectly feasible on their own", since we've already established that a marine armed only with his knife is as good as dead.
<!--QuoteBegin-Zek+Mar 16 2004, 02:25 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Zek @ Mar 16 2004, 02:25 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->That's insane. Beating a marine in melee should not require a war of attrition involving going back to the hive or D chambers every time he hits you. If knives were weak, as you claimed, then aliens would be able to win in a melee contest without having to retreat to a healing station. If that is your only solution to beating a knifer then you seem to consider the knife to be a rather even match for a skulk.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Depends on the situation. If you're up against a level 3 LMG with armor 2, yea, the skulk is not, and should not in my opinion, be an even match for him. And again, I would agrue that beating a marine in melee <b>is not</b> a war of attrition. See, this is my problem with this arguement, you want to look at everything in a static bubble, and you just cant. As I keep saying, take away a marine's guns, and give him just a knife, and he's toast. That to me means its just fine.
<!--QuoteBegin-Zek+Mar 16 2004, 02:25 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Zek @ Mar 16 2004, 02:25 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Um, but what he said is still true; the knife hitting effect is possibly even more disorienting than knockback and it makes it much easier to follow up with a second knife hit. Knockback doesn't hit a marine on the ground far enough back to prevent a counter-attack, and the skulk won't always get the first hit. Only a newbie marine would not be able to turn to face the skulk as it maneuvered around him.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Well, someoen pointed out in a following message that this was a bug. Honestly, I can't really speak to it, because I've never experienced it. In my experience, and I've been playing since NS was released, the only time I ever get knifed is when I'm all but dead anyways.
<!--QuoteBegin-Sm|o||o|th+Mar 16 2004, 11:29 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Sm|o||o|th @ Mar 16 2004, 11:29 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> The knife knockback / view disorientation is a bug. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> Where has it ever been stated that this was a bug?
Regarding the rest of the thread, here's a couple of things that people on this forum seem to refuse to discuss (aka facts).
The knife rarely accounts for more than 5 percent of kills in a game despite being 33 percent of a marine's arsenal. Here's some <a href='http://www.gamesplace.net/index.php?c=nsstats' target='_blank'>game stats from a server</a> I play on to back me up. Is this overpowered?
Sure, the knife has a higher rate of fire than bitegun, but it has a smaller range and a much, much smaller cone of fire. Do a test for yourself. As a skulk, press up against a marine, then, without moving, look away from the marine and bite. Voila, damage has been done to the marine, since the cone of fire for bite is gigantorific. Next, as marine, look straight at the skulk at your feet, then look perpendicular to the ground (ie, straight forward). Try to knife him, it misses.
Third, lets look at actual usage on an individual basis. Do you frequently see marines running around killing skulks with their knife only? No? Oh, does that even remotely suggest to you that it may be because it's the least effective weapon they have?
Finally, I agree that knife knockback is rediculous, especially regarding fade and onos. Have you ever been an onos that was rushed by 3 or 4 stupid pubs marines with knives? It takes forever to kill them because each time they knife, you get knocked to the left and your claw misses.
Why do you people insist on comparing marines with knives only to full skulks? The whole point is that the marines have all these ranged alternatives before they get to you... let's say a marine isn't very good with guns... and takes the skulk down to 59hp, that's not much damage with your lmg... what... three bullets? He runs out and draws his knife when they reach him... now lets assume the marine player is just as good as a skulk player in close combat... he only needs two hits, faster than bite, assuming the marine doesn't even have any armour would you tell me he doesn't have a good chance at killing the skulk? Now why does taking him down to 30 hp, about a third of their health, mean the marine should be easily able to kill the skulk, just because he couldn't kill them fast enough with their gun? Lets turn this around, lets say the marines couldn't shoot until the aliens reached melee range... and then had to evade the aliens for several seconds before they were allowed to start shooting, you may consider this a ludicrous situation... but this is generally the sort of thing an alien has to do. You'd want the weapon to be powerful enough to compensate for the effort and skill it took to live long enough. Now what if the aliens were also given a weapon that, when you take the amount of HP into account, can kill you 60% as well as you could kill with your new weapon, you'd think it was bloody stupid, and rightfully so.
You can't really argue the 'range' point, I don't know a single person who kills a marines by staying just out of knife range constantly and biting them from there, the range difference doesn't change that much.
ZunniThe best thing to happen to I&S in a long whileJoin Date: 2002-11-26Member: 10016Members
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Since people want to all but remove the one melee weapon marines have... Lets nerf all distance weapons aliens have. Like acid rocket or spores.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Have you played 3.0?<!--emo&???--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/confused.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='confused.gif' /><!--endemo--> Acid Rockets haven't been nerfed already???
ZunniThe best thing to happen to I&S in a long whileJoin Date: 2002-11-26Member: 10016Members
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->The fact is a good skulk has every advantage to take over a knife, if he loses to one it's his own fault. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Except for the Knife's ROF, and the damage done..
<!--QuoteBegin-Kalias+Mar 16 2004, 05:25 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Kalias @ Mar 16 2004, 05:25 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Why do you people insist on comparing marines with knives only to full skulks? The whole point is that the marines have all these ranged alternatives before they get to you... let's say a marine isn't very good with guns... and takes the skulk down to 59hp, that's not much damage with your lmg... what... three bullets? He runs out and draws his knife when they reach him... now lets assume the marine player is just as good as a skulk player in close combat... he only needs two hits, faster than bite, assuming the marine doesn't even have any armour would you tell me he doesn't have a good chance at killing the skulk? Now why does taking him down to 30 hp, about a third of their health, mean the marine should be easily able to kill the skulk, just because he couldn't kill them fast enough with their gun? Lets turn this around, lets say the marines couldn't shoot until the aliens reached melee range... and then had to evade the aliens for several seconds before they were allowed to start shooting, you may consider this a ludicrous situation... but this is generally the sort of thing an alien has to do. You'd want the weapon to be powerful enough to compensate for the effort and skill it took to live long enough. Now what if the aliens were also given a weapon that, when you take the amount of HP into account, can kill you 60% as well as you could kill with your new weapon, you'd think it was bloody stupid, and rightfully so.
You can't really argue the 'range' point, I don't know a single person who kills a marines by staying just out of knife range constantly and biting them from there, the range difference doesn't change that much. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> Had you read meep's post above yours you'd realize that if both the skulk and the marine are equal in skill the skulk will win every time
Comments
that is ofcourse when you directly compare it with those plastic kmart knives.
I have never once noticed this to be a problem. As has been stated, aliens do have a few long distance weapons. Acid Rockets, Spores, Spit. None of these are particularly effective.
Neither is the knife. It is ONLY a last-ditch weapon. To remove the knife damage versus aliens is basically the equivalent of saying "We, as the aliens, would like the marines to just fall on the ground and drop all their weapons when we get within 5 feet of them."
You can say what you want about 3 knife hits being overpowered. It is nearly impossible to score 3 knife hits on a rabid puppy thats circling you and biting your ankles off. If an alien gets hurt to below 30 hp and continues running in a straight line at the marine, his dumb a** deserves to get knife killed.
Don't you think that if the knife was a problem, the dev team might, just MIGHT, have noticed it in the nearly two years that I've been playing? The only thing they have ever changed on it in that time is the range. They quite obviously think that the knife is fine how it is.
Stop posting on this board every time something happens to you that you don't like. "Oh no, a fade owned me, they must be over powered." "Oh no, I got knifed and humiliated, the knife must be too powerful." "Oh no, the expensive grenade launcher destroys my free alien, it must be too powerful." I'm just plain sick of it.
Luckily 99% of marines spend all their time using the lmg and pistol so they dont know when, where, or how to use the knife.
Don't any of you guys realize that you are comparing marines THIRD attack to aliens MAIN attack? Not only is the knife very comparable to bite, but marines have TWO weapons that are better than the knife.
However since most people dont realize how good the knife is I hope flayra will spend his time worrying about bigger issues.
Hogwash.
The fact is a good skulk has every advantage to take over a knife, if he loses to one it's his own fault.
Just time when you attack, as you are faster, and the knife will never kill you.
Hogwash.
The fact is a good skulk has every advantage to take over a knife, if he loses to one it's his own fault.
Just time when you attack, as you are faster, and the knife will never kill you. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
Agreed. But I guess there's a portion of this community that wants to turn the aliens into a bunch of bumm-rushing zergs. As long as they can get next to you, they deserve the kill and there's shouldn't be anything the marine can do about it.
A good skulk can run rings around a marine with his knife and never get hit.
What do I define as 'powerful'? I define that as any weapon that can kill a skulk in a very few number of hits. It takes as little as THREE hits to kill a skulk with knife from full health, which means it does as much damage as an LMG and pistol bullet combined. With a ROF that is faster than bite, I consider this overpowered. Just because it hasn't been fully exploited doesn't mean it isn't overpowered.
Knife damage was NOT increased to give marines a better weapon to attack aliens with, damage was increased for marines to kill chambers without needing to waste ammo. Unfortunately Flayra neglectd to consider the impact this would have on people using knife as a weapon against aliens.
Some things are just not meant to be in the game. Someone may think driveable vehicles may be great, but they are not part of the game. Strong melee weapons for marines are NOT part of the game. Whine and complain if you like, but Flayra was the one who made that decision. I think people should respect it.
Regards,
Savant
Just because a knifing marine is not more powerful than a skilled skulk doesn't mean that the knife isn't stronger than it should be. The fact that a marine has a reasonable chance of killing a skulk in melee(and yes, he does, whether or not you choose to admit it) goes against the design of the game. Marines are not supposed to have an effective melee weapon against aliens, and the knife is a powerful weapon when used correctly.
This isn't the same as saying that a marine should die automatically when the skulk gets close. You still have two guns; if you can't kill the skulk with 50 LMG and 10 pistol bullets, you should be dead. The fact that you can screw up all that and still win with a knife is ludicrous.
What do I define as 'powerful'? I define that as any weapon that can kill a skulk in a very few number of hits. It takes as little as THREE hits to kill a skulk with knife from full health, which means it does as much damage as an LMG and pistol bullet combined. With a ROF that is faster than bite, I consider this overpowered. Just because it hasn't been fully exploited doesn't mean it isn't overpowered.
Knife damage was NOT increased to give marines a better weapon to attack aliens with, damage was increased for marines to kill chambers without needing to waste ammo. Unfortunately Flayra neglectd to consider the impact this would have on people using knife as a weapon against aliens.
Some things are just not meant to be in the game. Someone may think driveable vehicles may be great, but they are not part of the game. Strong melee weapons for marines are NOT part of the game. Whine and complain if you like, but Flayra was the one who made that decision. I think people should respect it.
Regards,
Savant <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
Ok Savant, how about this. Next time you play a game, drop all your guns. Use nothing but your knife. How long do you think you'll survive? Better yet, command a game. Upgrade your team's armor full, get them HA, but no guns. Just as an experiment, ask them to all drop their guns. You think the marines will win? You think you'll have even a chance?? If you seriously think you would, I'd have to say you're not playing with very experienced aliens.
The idea was that marines should be ranged fighters, and aliens should be melee. This isn't an absolute. Aliens have acid rockets and gas, both ranged attacks. I've not seen any indication from Flayra that he wants them nerfed (although AR IMHO has been, I dont think that was the intention). Marines have just 1 little tiny melee weapon. And while it may be relatively strong against a skulk (I'd debate this with you, but for arguements sake) this is not a marine vs. skulk game! I don't understand all this "I need an uber zerg killing machine" logic I'm seeing lately. There are 3 other lifeforms, try using one sometime.
Just because a knifing marine is not more powerful than a skilled skulk doesn't mean that the knife isn't stronger than it should be. The fact that a marine has a reasonable chance of killing a skulk in melee(and yes, he does, whether or not you choose to admit it) goes against the design of the game. Marines are not supposed to have an effective melee weapon against aliens, and the knife is a powerful weapon when used correctly.
This isn't the same as saying that a marine should die automatically when the skulk gets close. You still have two guns; if you can't kill the skulk with 50 LMG and 10 pistol bullets, you should be dead. The fact that you can screw up all that and still win with a knife is ludicrous. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
You're looking at it as if the knife and the skulk are in a vacuum. Yes, if a skulk stands still and while a marine knifes him, he will die. Sure it takes 3 swings.. so what?? You dont balance a game by looking at things like this. You have to look at the overall picture. Can marines even come anywhere near winning a game by running around with their knives out??!
You can't just create your own ridiculous arguments, attach them to our side and then argue against them. That's an incredible logical fallacy and does not contribute to this discussion in the slightest.
You can't just create your own ridiculous arguments, attach them to our side and then argue against them. That's an incredible logical fallacy and does not contribute to this discussion in the slightest.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Zek, you just made my point for me. My point is exactly that you do not balance a game by looking at one weapon vs one weapon. Or in this case, one weapon (the knife) against one life form (the skulk). Just because the knife can kill an alien does NOT make it over powered, not does the fact that it can kill a skulk in 3 swipes.
The knife is not over powered, I'm sorry, it just is not. Take away the marine's guns, and let the marine and skulk go one on one. I will tell you know that 99% of the time the skulk will win, if he does nor, then I'm sorry he is just a very bad player.
Now, if you're going to make the argument that the marine shoots you down to 30 health with his LMG, then when you get next to him (and he's assumably out of ammo) and he knifes you. Then what really killed you??
See, what I see here is that basically aliens want to be able to kill a marine once they get to him, and the marinee really shouldn't have any recourse. If the marine cant kill the alien before the alien closes the distance, then the marine should die. And I do not subscribe to that view point. If the alien can close the distance, then the <b>advantage</b> should be his, and it is, by a long shot.
I don't know what to tell you. Your definition of overpowered is flawed; you attach it to some arbitrary game scenario and assert that if the weapon doesn't win there, it's not overpowered. That doesn't make sense at all, and doesn't even come close to addressing what we're trying to argue.
This is the key disagreement. We just have opposing points of view. As I said, I think the alien should have the advantage at melee range, not the win. But the other thing that I would ask you to consider, is that you're looking at one very very tiny aspect of the game, and it really has very little effect on the overall game. I mean, you just don't see marines running around knifing the snot out of aliens. Again, I doubt we will agree, but I dont think this is a problem and I definately think there are much more severe problems that need addressing.
Yep, I rarely see the "damage them alot and finish them with the knife on purpose" people playing. Most people don't want to _HAVE_ to pull out their knife to kill skulks. It still doesn't even sound like a smart thing to do, sounds to me like the "elite" players performing this are doing it for no other reason than to humiliate skulks. Even still, the people I have seen doing this aren't all that good at it.
Like I said, even without the knives aliens don't have an instant win at melee range. There's still jump-dodging and insane knockback that allow marines to shoot aliens dead even at melee range. And even if that crap was fixed marines can still shoot skulks that reach them; it's just harder, because as you said, skulks are supposed to have the advantage. With guns, aliens have the advantage but not the instant win at melee range. Knives allow marines to go into melee themselves and still have a decent shot against skulks, which is not as intended. Marines are not supposed to be viable in melee combat.
I would argue they are not. Again, in a one on one, no guns, skulk vs. knife, the marine will lose 99% of the time. I think you want to take away ALL melee from marines, and if that's the case, then take away gas and acid rockets. I mean, if we're gonna say melee is the sole realm of the aliens, then ranged should be the sole realm of the marines.
I still say this either a) a lack of skulk skill, b) the gun does 99% of the damage and the knife gets a swipe, or c) complete and utter luck (god knows I've gotten some lucky swings in <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin.gif' /><!--endemo--> )
Now on knockback, I think we can agree on that one. The marines should not <b>regain</b> the advantage as a result of the skulk doing his job (and him jumping around like a rabbit on PCP). But I think that's another thread... <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif' /><!--endemo-->
It takes three knife slashes to kill a skulk.
<b>OLO TEH NIVE IS NTO OVARPOWAR!!!!!</b>
BTW: This "skulk greater in melee" has no bearing on the knife.
1) A marine can time his knife slashes as well... and I'll be damned if the range between the knife and bite is any different. I actually find it much easier to knife things then bite them at 'range' simply because the knife looks farther out, making it easier to judge the distance.
2) It takes just as many knife slashes to kill a skulk as it does to kill a marine with bite (assuming your average NS game with armor 1 very early on)
3) Bite isn't disorienting. Knife makes your view go all wierd, and can pull you around.
Advantage knife. The good thing is that most marines just 'CHOPCHOPCHOPCHOPCHOP' with it.
I don't agree with the basis of your arguement. If you replaced 'decent' with 'almost non-existant' then I would agree.
<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Again, that's assuming the marine and the skulk stand face to face biting and knifing. That's so unrealistic it's not funny. You guys are using situations that will almost never happen to back up your argument. I'm telling you, take a marine, drop his guns, and put him face to face with a skulk, and the skulk will almost always win. Skulks can jump around, dodge left right, etc. They are much faster and more manueverable than a marine. If you want to talk about a skulk and a marine that just stand face to face and start knifing/biting, I will grant you the marine will win. IMHO this is not a problem, because that is not how a skulk should be used.
<!--QuoteBegin-EEK+Mar 16 2004, 02:03 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (EEK @ Mar 16 2004, 02:03 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->2) It takes just as many knife slashes to kill a skulk as it does to kill a marine with bite (assuming your average NS game with armor 1 very early on)
<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Yes, but the skulk can take a bite, back off, heal (full health/cara) and come back. The marine cannot. He will need to get a med pack (2 res) to get back to 100% health, and another marine with a welder to get his armor back. Again, this is about strategy and skill, not zerg rushing.
<!--QuoteBegin-EEK+Mar 16 2004, 02:03 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (EEK @ Mar 16 2004, 02:03 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->3) Bite isn't disorienting. Knife makes your view go all wierd, and can pull you around.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
That's not true. Skulk bite knocks the marines back, which usually causes a degree of disorentiation, and certainly will put the marine <b>out</b> of the melee range of the skulk, which again gives the skulk a chance to manuever around, get behind the marine, jump on a wall, whatever.
Ack... almost sounds like I'm arguing <b>for</b> knockback. <!--emo&:0--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/wow.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='wow.gif' /><!--endemo-->
You can dodge all you want as a skulk, but when you go in for the bite you are vulnerable to being knifed. If the marine is aiming carefully instead of swinging like a tard, he'll be able to hit you as soon as you come into range. I'm not sure what their exact ranges are but it is very difficult to measure the distance out perfectly every time as a skulk so that he won't be able to reach you. I never said that knives only won in a head-on attacking contest; they are perfectly feasible on their own, IF you know how to use them.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Yes, but the skulk can take a bite, back off, heal (full health/cara) and come back. The marine cannot. He will need to get a med pack (2 res) to get back to 100% health, and another marine with a welder to get his armor back. Again, this is about strategy and skill, not zerg rushing.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
That's insane. Beating a marine in melee should not require a war of attrition involving going back to the hive or D chambers every time he hits you. If knives were weak, as you claimed, then aliens would be able to win in a melee contest without having to retreat to a healing station. If that is your only solution to beating a knifer then you seem to consider the knife to be a rather even match for a skulk.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->That's not true. Skulk bite knocks the marines back, which usually causes a degree of disorentiation, and certainly will put the marine <b>out</b> of the melee range of the skulk, which again gives the skulk a chance to manuever around, get behind the marine, jump on a wall, whatever.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Um, but what he said is still true; the knife hitting effect is possibly even more disorienting than knockback and it makes it much easier to follow up with a second knife hit. Knockback doesn't hit a marine on the ground far enough back to prevent a counter-attack, and the skulk won't always get the first hit. Only a newbie marine would not be able to turn to face the skulk as it maneuvered around him.
Personally, I try to bite the marine somewhere other than his cone of fire (be that his LMG, pistol, or knife). And I'm not sure what you mean by "perfectly feasible on their own", since we've already established that a marine armed only with his knife is as good as dead.
<!--QuoteBegin-Zek+Mar 16 2004, 02:25 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Zek @ Mar 16 2004, 02:25 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->That's insane. Beating a marine in melee should not require a war of attrition involving going back to the hive or D chambers every time he hits you. If knives were weak, as you claimed, then aliens would be able to win in a melee contest without having to retreat to a healing station. If that is your only solution to beating a knifer then you seem to consider the knife to be a rather even match for a skulk.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Depends on the situation. If you're up against a level 3 LMG with armor 2, yea, the skulk is not, and should not in my opinion, be an even match for him. And again, I would agrue that beating a marine in melee <b>is not</b> a war of attrition. See, this is my problem with this arguement, you want to look at everything in a static bubble, and you just cant. As I keep saying, take away a marine's guns, and give him just a knife, and he's toast. That to me means its just fine.
<!--QuoteBegin-Zek+Mar 16 2004, 02:25 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Zek @ Mar 16 2004, 02:25 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Um, but what he said is still true; the knife hitting effect is possibly even more disorienting than knockback and it makes it much easier to follow up with a second knife hit. Knockback doesn't hit a marine on the ground far enough back to prevent a counter-attack, and the skulk won't always get the first hit. Only a newbie marine would not be able to turn to face the skulk as it maneuvered around him.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Well, someoen pointed out in a following message that this was a bug. Honestly, I can't really speak to it, because I've never experienced it. In my experience, and I've been playing since NS was released, the only time I ever get knifed is when I'm all but dead anyways.
Where has it ever been stated that this was a bug?
Regarding the rest of the thread, here's a couple of things that people on this forum seem to refuse to discuss (aka facts).
The knife rarely accounts for more than 5 percent of kills in a game despite being 33 percent of a marine's arsenal. Here's some <a href='http://www.gamesplace.net/index.php?c=nsstats' target='_blank'>game stats from a server</a> I play on to back me up. Is this overpowered?
Sure, the knife has a higher rate of fire than bitegun, but it has a smaller range and a much, much smaller cone of fire. Do a test for yourself. As a skulk, press up against a marine, then, without moving, look away from the marine and bite. Voila, damage has been done to the marine, since the cone of fire for bite is gigantorific. Next, as marine, look straight at the skulk at your feet, then look perpendicular to the ground (ie, straight forward). Try to knife him, it misses.
Third, lets look at actual usage on an individual basis. Do you frequently see marines running around killing skulks with their knife only? No? Oh, does that even remotely suggest to you that it may be because it's the least effective weapon they have?
Finally, I agree that knife knockback is rediculous, especially regarding fade and onos. Have you ever been an onos that was rushed by 3 or 4 stupid pubs marines with knives? It takes forever to kill them because each time they knife, you get knocked to the left and your claw misses.
Lets turn this around, lets say the marines couldn't shoot until the aliens reached melee range... and then had to evade the aliens for several seconds before they were allowed to start shooting, you may consider this a ludicrous situation... but this is generally the sort of thing an alien has to do. You'd want the weapon to be powerful enough to compensate for the effort and skill it took to live long enough. Now what if the aliens were also given a weapon that, when you take the amount of HP into account, can kill you 60% as well as you could kill with your new weapon, you'd think it was bloody stupid, and rightfully so.
You can't really argue the 'range' point, I don't know a single person who kills a marines by staying just out of knife range constantly and biting them from there, the range difference doesn't change that much.
Have you played 3.0?<!--emo&???--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/confused.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='confused.gif' /><!--endemo--> Acid Rockets haven't been nerfed already???
<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Except for the Knife's ROF, and the damage done..
Which are 2 main points of a weapon...
Lets turn this around, lets say the marines couldn't shoot until the aliens reached melee range... and then had to evade the aliens for several seconds before they were allowed to start shooting, you may consider this a ludicrous situation... but this is generally the sort of thing an alien has to do. You'd want the weapon to be powerful enough to compensate for the effort and skill it took to live long enough. Now what if the aliens were also given a weapon that, when you take the amount of HP into account, can kill you 60% as well as you could kill with your new weapon, you'd think it was bloody stupid, and rightfully so.
You can't really argue the 'range' point, I don't know a single person who kills a marines by staying just out of knife range constantly and biting them from there, the range difference doesn't change that much. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
Had you read meep's post above yours you'd realize that if both the skulk and the marine are equal in skill the skulk will win every time