Please Remove Siege Splash Damage
Gadzuko
Join Date: 2002-12-26 Member: 11556Members, Constellation
Join Date: 2002-12-26 Member: 11556Members, Constellation
<div class="IPBDescription">Just for aliens, not structures</div> We've all heard the complaints, the screams of "LAME!!!" when a siege farm goes up, the rants about how magic guns shooting through walls don't belong in NS - for my part, I actually like the siege. I think it's an interesting concept, and adds some tactical depth to the game.
However, there is one thing I have come to very strongly dislike, and that is the fact that sieges damage players as well as structures. I will disregard all complaints of realism and also not argue for the sake of realism, but instead simply appeal to game balance, and the almighty fun factor.
Once a siege goes up, it makes all structures a "no-go zone". What's more, the siege blast radius seems to vary significantly, and a shot which left you unharmed once could kill you the next time even if you're standing in the same spot. Avoiding siege is mostly luck.
This has several effects. Firstly, it makes healing of sieged structures impossible, or at least very chancy. You never know when the siege will hit again. Secondly, it gives a significant chance that a skulk spawning in at a sieged hive will never have a chance to do anything. Many times the newly spawned skulk will be dead before it gets a chance to orient itself and get away from any structures nearby, which is not fun at all. Thirdly, it means that the hive and defense chambers cannot be used for their primary combat purpose of healing. This means that the aliens are denied any forward outposts with which to combat the marines, and must rely on regeneration and gorges alone. This is, quite often, a crippling blow for onos and fades who simply cannot be healed to any real extent by the gorge.
So, I ask, why does the siege hurt players? It is not fun at all and very demoralizing to be blown apart time after time, often just after spawning, all the while never getting a look at your enemy or having a chance to fight it. This is a beta, after all. Can we give this a try, just to see how it goes? Just one version, that's all I ask. If it's terrible, take it out again. But please, give us all a chance to use our DCs and spawn in peace.
However, there is one thing I have come to very strongly dislike, and that is the fact that sieges damage players as well as structures. I will disregard all complaints of realism and also not argue for the sake of realism, but instead simply appeal to game balance, and the almighty fun factor.
Once a siege goes up, it makes all structures a "no-go zone". What's more, the siege blast radius seems to vary significantly, and a shot which left you unharmed once could kill you the next time even if you're standing in the same spot. Avoiding siege is mostly luck.
This has several effects. Firstly, it makes healing of sieged structures impossible, or at least very chancy. You never know when the siege will hit again. Secondly, it gives a significant chance that a skulk spawning in at a sieged hive will never have a chance to do anything. Many times the newly spawned skulk will be dead before it gets a chance to orient itself and get away from any structures nearby, which is not fun at all. Thirdly, it means that the hive and defense chambers cannot be used for their primary combat purpose of healing. This means that the aliens are denied any forward outposts with which to combat the marines, and must rely on regeneration and gorges alone. This is, quite often, a crippling blow for onos and fades who simply cannot be healed to any real extent by the gorge.
So, I ask, why does the siege hurt players? It is not fun at all and very demoralizing to be blown apart time after time, often just after spawning, all the while never getting a look at your enemy or having a chance to fight it. This is a beta, after all. Can we give this a try, just to see how it goes? Just one version, that's all I ask. If it's terrible, take it out again. But please, give us all a chance to use our DCs and spawn in peace.
Comments
You advance towards the WoL with the siege firing to spot, but the siege goes and kills you!
Also means that once the siege goes up marines and aliens just have to wait for the wall to be destroyed before resuming the fight! As neither can approach the WoL. Removing the splash damage would be interesting, and worth a try I think.
I'd like to see it tried, anyway.
Before you reply, you should consider why they were added to the game. Way back when the alien team actually had a viable resource flow, the aliens were able to build gobs and gobs of OCs, which led to 'walls of lame' being placed about the map. A NUKE was used for a short time, but that was too easily abused by marines. Following this was a limit of OCs to 8 within a give area. Since that wasn't enough for some people, a weapon was created to target those massive structures and clear the way for marines to move into the hive. The situation as it stands now is that there are no more walls of lame. Aliens can't really afford to build ONE OC in the early game, let alone 8. For the most part, you'll never see a true wall of lame until the third hive is up and the aliens control the map. At that point the game has long been over, and if it isn't the marines will have HA/HMG/GL which can make fast work of any such wall.
As such, there is no need for a siege cannon anymore in my opinion. The main reason marines use it now is since it is a cheap way to take out a hive, and frankly I would like to move away from having the GAME do the work for us. If a commander wants to take out a hive, just drop a batch of shotties and tell the marines to go get the hive. With the poor skulk armor they are no match for shotties in the early game. Game over. Have people WORK for a win instead of sitting around while the game gives them the win.
Should the alien resource flow ever be fixed so that aliens can build up significant OC defenses, then we can revisit this issue. Until then, the siege cannon is just a holdover from a time when aliens actually had a chance to put up defenses. Since that time has past I don't see the need for marines to have an uber-powerful weapon when there is no uber-powerful force to content with.
Regards,
Savant
ns_nothing: Powersilo. you have a phase gate, armory, and mixed HA/LA marines outside in the corridor. opposite to them, you have: bilebombing Gorge, onos, lerk with umbra, and loads of skulks who keep rushing in. The marines would never even get to shoot the hive, let alone kill it.
Now, if you would look at the same situation with sieges from an alien perspective, you would have the same aliens. Opposite to them, GLs are making it hellish for your skulks to do any decent damage, as well as killing off the biling gorges, HMGs are keeping your onos at bay, and the HA nullifies your lerk, aside using umbra. Meanwhile, siege cannons are slaughtering your spawning skulks, while the hive slowly but surely dies. And there aint a damn thing you can do about it.
So from my point of view, sieges should not be removed, but they should also not be as powerful as they currently are. My vote? Disable the sieges from doing damage to aliens, and reduce the damage by 1/4 vs structures. I think, THEN, you would get some intense battlefields, with chances to win for both teams.
What if, for starters, the ability to use scanner sweep to sight for the sieges was removed? If marines had to do it themselves then siege would just complement a marine attack instead of allowing marines to sit back and camp while the hive dies. It would also prevent unguarded sieges in a place like Red Room from completely locking down the hive area without marine effort.
That happened to me when FF wasnt on in a bugged spot in old hera. Back on topic tho i think splash damage/sieges should be toned down a bit too but not completely nerfed.
I like this idea. It gives the marines the ability to take down secured areas all the while making them work for it by putting their own necks on the line. Plus, it gives aliens a new way to stop the siege, namely not having to destroy the siege itself but just keeping the marines bottled up so the siege can't fire. I think this would make for an interesting change in addition to the splash damage being looked at. Siege would then become sort of an artillery bombardment to help the incursion rather than a stand off weapon of mass destruction.
I like this idea. It gives the marines the ability to take down secured areas all the while making them work for it by putting their own necks on the line. Plus, it gives aliens a new way to stop the siege, namely not having to destroy the siege itself but just keeping the marines bottled up so the siege can't fire. I think this would make for an interesting change in addition to the splash damage being looked at. Siege would then become sort of an artillery bombardment to help the incursion rather than a stand off weapon of mass destruction. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
I think if you add an obs to an outpost that should direct the siege cannons...
Or allow scan to direct seige anyway, give scan unnlimited energy, and make it cost 2 res or summink <!--emo&???--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/confused.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='confused.gif' /><!--endemo-->
Before you reply, you should consider why they were added to the game. Way back when the alien team actually had a viable resource flow, the aliens were able to build gobs and gobs of OCs, which led to 'walls of lame' being placed about the map. A NUKE was used for a short time, but that was too easily abused by marines. Following this was a limit of OCs to 8 within a give area. Since that wasn't enough for some people, a weapon was created to target those massive structures and clear the way for marines to move into the hive. The situation as it stands now is that there are no more walls of lame. Aliens can't really afford to build ONE OC in the early game, let alone 8. For the most part, you'll never see a true wall of lame until the third hive is up and the aliens control the map. At that point the game has long been over, and if it isn't the marines will have HA/HMG/GL which can make fast work of any such wall.
As such, there is no need for a siege cannon anymore in my opinion. The main reason marines use it now is since it is a cheap way to take out a hive, and frankly I would like to move away from having the GAME do the work for us. If a commander wants to take out a hive, just drop a batch of shotties and tell the marines to go get the hive. With the poor skulk armor they are no match for shotties in the early game. Game over. Have people WORK for a win instead of sitting around while the game gives them the win.
Should the alien resource flow ever be fixed so that aliens can build up significant OC defenses, then we can revisit this issue. Until then, the siege cannon is just a holdover from a time when aliens actually had a chance to put up defenses. Since that time has past I don't see the need for marines to have an uber-powerful weapon when there is no uber-powerful force to content with.
Regards,
Savant <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
Actually seiges are quite useful now due to the fact of this:
3 gorges with adren can keep a hive from dying from 4 seiges and 2 obs worth of ping time (try it sometime if you don't believe me)
Hives have 7000 hitpoints now (up 1000 from 2.01's 6000)
Hives heal 15% percent!
Conclusion: Aliens are VERY powerful when they camp in their hive room. Seige gives marines a way to force aliens to come out and fight, also because of the nature of seiges and scan (you basically need a ton of cash to completely scan out and seige out a hive, which is impractical against a good alien team who's constantly killing your res)
Seiges also allow marines to focus their clips into aliens rather strcutures, while the seiges do to the dirty work for them.
Also, saying Grenade Launchers are nullified by seiges is just wrong IMO. GL's are much more powerful than seiges are and nuke alien lifeforms in a very large radius around a blast area.
Seiges are pretty much anti-structure only, while GL's are great at killing masses of structures <b>and</b> aliens.
Anyhow, the differences, uses, and reasons for seiges and GL's are there, you just have to look for them.
3 gorges with adren can keep a hive from dying from 4 seiges and 2 obs worth of ping time (try it sometime if you don't believe me)
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I was just about to point this out myself. I don't see how anyone would think that marines could always easily move in and kill a hive on foot. With grogs healing the hive, sieges can't always take them down. Even just one grog, plus 3 DC can keep the hive alive long enough for you to keep running out of scans, and as long as the aliens can keep you out of the hive, theres nothing you can do. Sieges hurting aliens is one way to deal with this, but it still doesn't really help that much. Seems like it kills all aliens _BUT_ the gorge healing the hive <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif' /><!--endemo-->. Go figure. Not to mention if somebody wants to make the hive last even longer, they can drop structures inbetween the sieges and the hive(if they have the res) and that will slow the sieges down for obs scans.
But the point of the original poster was that sieges are NOT just anti-structure. In fact they usually kill alot of aliens during a lengthy hive sieging. His idea is to actually makes sieges ONLY anti-structure. And I think that's a great idea that is at least worth checking out. For many alien lifeforms once sieges go up you have areas that you really can't walk in or you risk getting blown up.
As it stands I feel siege is overpowered. (look at nancy, two of the easiest hives to siege and a marine dominant map) Instead of just nerfing or removing siege right away, why not give the no-damage-to-alien idea a try? If aliens are able to attack siege positions without worrying about being sieged themselves then that would make sieging more difficult.
I think it's at least worth a shot.
- be less annoying for respawning skulks
- introduce the tactic of drawing seige fire away from hives by plopping OCs as "decoys"
2) The real reason people say seiges are overpowered is that their counter, is in turn, so easily countered. I mean, sensories can counter seiges, but it's way to easy to get rid of its cloaking effect. I propose that sensories somehow protect against seiges better. This would:
- make sensory more viable as a 2nd hive chamber
- provide a more direct counter against seige (as opposed to destroying the seige outpost)
3) Phase gates are also another reason seige outposts are so effective. With marines reinforcing the outpost faster than aliens can spawn and defend the hive, marines have a relatively easy time of defending the outpost.
Why are we constantly thinking up nerfs when we can use our time to think of good counters against things?
Perhaps change it so that with SCs in place, you need line of sight to siege, always. So you'd have to send your marines in and THEN ping, or send them in and keep a stream of fire on the hive to keep it visible. This will also fix the annoyance of late game aliens trying to break a turret farm and not being able to drop chambers for healing, as they then become siege death magnets as soon as the marines ping the hall. Just make up some back story about the sensory chamber's cloaking effect interfering with the complex electronic workings of the siege cannons.
Also, I really like the siege doing no damage to players idea. Makes sieging much more exciting for all involved.
i think sieging is way to effective. it takes foreever to take out a marine base(not talking about outposts). and takes so little time to take out an alien hive. if they just hacked sieges damage down they could still do there purpose, but this way you have more time to stop the seige.
Sieges haven't been nerfed. At all. The only thing coming close to a siege nerf was the 1.04->2.0 no auto shoot problem(old), or the TF range reduction, which was supposed to be that small anyway seeing how the increase in range was a last-minute-change.
Players, as in aliens, get killed a LOT by the sieges once they die to anything since it's an automatic spawncamper of doom. Marines not getting killed by sieges is not an issue.
The original poster is just talking about getting rid of the anti-alien damage that happens when they're around a sieged building, not getting rid of sieges. I'd just like to say that the situation you just brought up is the equivelant of a marine killing a healthy fade with just his knife. I doubt this has ever happened, for the following reasons:
1. One marine, this includes the commander getting out of his chair or someone respawning, can kill a gorge no problem. Gorges are not built for combat. A screenshot:
<!--emo&::asrifle::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/asrifle.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='asrifle.gif' /><!--endemo--> <!--emo&::gorge::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/pudgy.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='pudgy.gif' /><!--endemo--> o< HEAVENS I AM SLAIN
It does not take several marines to kill a gorge.
2. OCs take time to build. They also make a lot of noise when being built. The gorge is pretty loud and slow just getting to the marine base. They're not built for stealth. It is not danger-free to even get inside the marine base.
3. Before OCs get built, they cannot defend themselves. Should they be killed after they are placed but before they are built, that's 10 res flushed down the toilet.
4. You can sit behind a marine building and kill the OCs at range, as the buildings will draw the spike fire from you. It usually takes a little more than two LMG clips.
5. If someone has enough res to go gorge and then blow 5-6 OCs worth of res, he'll probably just wait a bit more for onos isntead.
By the way, I think OCs do 20 damage because of how the alien res system works. It is generally much harder to plant down 2 OCs than 4 turrets and a TF due to aliens having their resources dispersed rather given to one guy.
Also, if a dev reads this thread, please be so kind as to leave a short note or something? Actually, doesn't matter if it's a dev or not. Anyone who has access to people who make real decisions, just let me know if you see this. I'd prefer to hear that my idea was seen and not followed rather than simply be ignored.
But the point of the original poster was that sieges are NOT just anti-structure. In fact they usually kill alot of aliens during a lengthy hive sieging. His idea is to actually makes sieges ONLY anti-structure. And I think that's a great idea that is at least worth checking out. For many alien lifeforms once sieges go up you have areas that you really can't walk in or you risk getting blown up. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
Ah yes I forgot to adress the main poster.
Of course seiges should damage aliens. If it couldn't hurt aliens then it would be useless.
Instead of doing stuff like healing the hive to keep it alive, you could just heal some random structure and the hive will never get touched.
Of course, you could compensate for this by increasing seige damage, but I honestly don't like that idea.
I like the way seiges are now, it forces a direct conflict between each side.
The original poster is just talking about getting rid of the anti-alien damage that happens when they're around a sieged building, not getting rid of sieges. I'd just like to say that the situation you just brought up is the equivelant of a marine killing a healthy fade with just his knife. I doubt this has ever happened, for the following reasons:
1. One marine, this includes the commander getting out of his chair or someone respawning, can kill a gorge no problem. Gorges are not built for combat. A screenshot:
<!--emo&::asrifle::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/asrifle.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='asrifle.gif' /><!--endemo--> <!--emo&::gorge::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/pudgy.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='pudgy.gif' /><!--endemo--> o< HEAVENS I AM SLAIN
It does not take several marines to kill a gorge.
2. OCs take time to build. They also make a lot of noise when being built. The gorge is pretty loud and slow just getting to the marine base. They're not built for stealth. It is not danger-free to even get inside the marine base.
3. Before OCs get built, they cannot defend themselves. Should they be killed after they are placed but before they are built, that's 10 res flushed down the toilet.
4. You can sit behind a marine building and kill the OCs at range, as the buildings will draw the spike fire from you. It usually takes a little more than two LMG clips.
5. If someone has enough res to go gorge and then blow 5-6 OCs worth of res, he'll probably just wait a bit more for onos isntead.
By the way, I think OCs do 20 damage because of how the alien res system works. It is generally much harder to plant down 2 OCs than 4 turrets and a TF due to aliens having their resources dispersed rather given to one guy. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
I know it has happened, because I've done it myself, and I've had it done to me. Granted, its not terribly common, but its not that difficult either as long as your on a relatively small server. (6v6 or less) As for your individual points:
1: A marine facing just a gorge down a hallway will have the advantage, yes, but if that gorge has just dropped an OC or two then the Gorge actually has the advantage...especially if he was able to get it say...1/2 built before you showed up. That gorge can take cover from your fire behind the OC and force you to either expend a lot more ammo than normal to try to hit him around it, or chase him around it in circles giving the OC time to build itself.
2: Gorges aren't particularly loud. OC building is...but if you get Silence, the build sound and the drop sound both go away. Granted, theres still a nice chance of the Gorge being interrupted by marines on his way to whatever base hes attacking (works better on expansions than marine home base), but as a Marine commander I don't like having to rely on that chance.
3: True--dropping multiple OCs in hostile territory is a risk. But I believe that most of the time you will get the opportunity to finish building those OCs.
4: A little over 2 clips to kill an undefended OC, but we already know theres a Gorge right behind it. A gorge can add at least another clip to the OC lifespan, and if there is a second OC waiting after you kill the first, you will almost certainly run out of ammo before you kill it.
5: It doesn't have to be 5-6. 3 is more than enough to take out a decent sized turret farm.
All it takes is good aim with the lovely pistol.
However, if sieges are to be nerfed, marines need some sort of a buff, because it is already hard to defend sieges from being killed by skulks/fades in umbra, even if you have HA.
Another thing that should be looked at are groups of regen onos in umbra... how can marines stop these 3-4 invulnerable giants of doom? The only possibility I can think of, is to spam mines all over the place... HA train doesnt stop it, they get devoured then gored to hell, jetpacks also get gored to hell unless its a large marine start like ns_lost, but then they won't deal much damage to them because of regen + umbra...
I agree with the original posters idea, but it would only make marines more underpowered. A buff for the marines or nerf for aliens is also in need if this change is implemented.
Please note that what you experience in 9v9 and larger servers is nowhere near balance. NS is optimized for 6v6, 7v7 and 8v8 gameplay, if you don't play on servers with this number of players, don't complain about balance, marines are extremely good in large numbers...
Off topic, and wrong thread, but I have to ask: What makes you think that marines SHOULD be able to stop 4 onos backed up by regen and umbra? That's a massive investment of res and players from the alien team. (and usually they only way aliens can win now, with the overpowered weapons vs. underpowered health/armor) But the answer, of course, is to focus your fire on the foremost onos. He will go down much faster than you think. Then focus on the second, and so forth. They're huge and they block eachother and when they get low on health and try to run, they can't. If it's a point in the game where aliens can afford a regen umbra onos herd, marines probably have HMGs, and those make your job even faster. 4 marines with HMGs is enough bullets to slice through all those onos real fast, if you focus fire.
Personally, I'd much rather see some sort of alien siege-equivalent.
The ASC is awesome. It gives marines additional strategic options, and forces alien defense to be more dynamic and active. It also magically removes the hive-camping-stalemate problem. If the marines control the map, they can build enough ASCs to roast the aliens in their hive.
Conversely, the aliens need to manually go beat down every last sentry turret guarding the MS. This part of the game is seriously tedious for the aliens. I'd rather not force the marines to have to deal with this, as well.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Please note that what you experience in 9v9 and larger servers is nowhere near balance. NS is optimized for 6v6, 7v7 and 8v8 gameplay, if you don't play on servers with this number of players, don't complain about balance, marines are extremely good in large numbers... <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->I hate to break it to you, but you are WAY off base here. The game is not designed strictly for smaller games. If it was, then Flayra would hard code team limits into the game. In fact, Flayra has done everything he can to IMPROVE server performance for larger servers. It used to be you couldn't play more then 10 on 10 before the server lagged out. Now you can play 15 on 15 with no apprecible lag.
Just because you feel that smaler games are better doesn't mean you have the right to force your view of how NS should be played on the rest of the community.
If you don't like the fact that people want the game balanced for larger servers, then that's too damn bad. You have no right to tell people what they should or shouldn't complain about. Not only is it ignorant, it's just plain rude.
Regards,
Savant
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Please note that what you experience in 9v9 and larger servers is nowhere near balance. NS is optimized for 6v6, 7v7 and 8v8 gameplay, if you don't play on servers with this number of players, don't complain about balance, marines are extremely good in large numbers... <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->I hate to break it to you, but you are WAY off base here. The game is not designed strictly for smaller games. If it was, then Flayra would hard code team limits into the game. In fact, Flayra has done everything he can to IMPROVE server performance for larger servers. It used to be you couldn't play more then 10 on 10 before the server lagged out. Now you can play 15 on 15 with no apprecible lag.
Just because you feel that smaler games are better doesn't mean you have the right to force your view of how NS should be played on the rest of the community.
If you don't like the fact that people want the game balanced for larger servers, then that's too damn bad. You have no right to tell people what they should or shouldn't complain about. Not only is it ignorant, it's just plain rude.
Regards,
Savant <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
lol Savant, he's talking about gameplay balance not server preformance
And I wholeheartedly agree with him, in larger games marines dominate aliens unless they are completely outskilled.
The reason is that any marine team worth their salt puts up two or three siege cannons before pinging. So, yeah, gorges can keep the hive healed.. but that assumes that they live. Throw a single marine into the mix and bye-bye gorges, bye-bye hive. And a single marine is fairly easy to add to that mix because when the sieges are going off, the skulks are dying right and left from the double siege-whammys
That being said, I don't think alien damage from Sieges should be removed.. perhaps toned down so that skulks have a chance to get the hell out, but not removed. What should be removed is the way that marines can just sit and defend the siege while it's going off thanks to pings. Make the marines make the choice between defending the siege, or targeting the siege. Require physical line of sight.
If a marine can't see it (so even if it's cloaked by a sensory chamber) the siege can't shoot it.
This allows other options for the aliens as well, like the chance to build the hive without the siege automatically blasting the alien out, unless a marine comes by to check.. (add a sensory chamber to the mix and things can get really interesting. "Whaddya mean three hives? I was just there and there was nothing! Crap!")