Can Bittorrent Work?
coil
Amateur pirate. Professional monkey. All pance. Join Date: 2002-04-12 Member: 424Members, NS1 Playtester, Contributor
Amateur pirate. Professional monkey. All pance. Join Date: 2002-04-12 Member: 424Members, NS1 Playtester, Contributor
in Discussions
<div class="IPBDescription">peer-to-peer vs. server/client</div> Distributed networks seem to be the way to do things these days. Valve has hired the coder of Bittorrent to work on Steam, and Blizzard is currently experimenting with a Bittorrent-derived download client. They've used it to distribute their two most recent World of Warcraft videos as a test to see whether it's a viable distribution method for larger files liket he upcoming beta.
Blizzard's test is a good one, but the question is can a distributed download/upload system like Bittorrent's really work at the scale of the general public?
From what I've seen, Bittorrent networks currently in existence depend a great deal on the kindness of their own users; most tracker websites have something like "Please keep your download windows open!" prominently displayed. As a pessimistic realist, I have very little faith in human beings; people in general tend to be extraordinarily selfish, and a system like Bittorrent only works if you are willing to give up your own processor cycles/bandwidth to leave a bittorrent window open after your own download has completed. My personal opinion is that the general public - the majority of whom haven't discovered bittorrent yet - aren't interested enough in making the system work to work *with* it.
Will Blizzard be able to distribute the World of Warcraft beta through Bittorrent? I think BT will be one of the options, but for now a general server-client system, flaws and all, is still necessary.
Your opinions?
Blizzard's test is a good one, but the question is can a distributed download/upload system like Bittorrent's really work at the scale of the general public?
From what I've seen, Bittorrent networks currently in existence depend a great deal on the kindness of their own users; most tracker websites have something like "Please keep your download windows open!" prominently displayed. As a pessimistic realist, I have very little faith in human beings; people in general tend to be extraordinarily selfish, and a system like Bittorrent only works if you are willing to give up your own processor cycles/bandwidth to leave a bittorrent window open after your own download has completed. My personal opinion is that the general public - the majority of whom haven't discovered bittorrent yet - aren't interested enough in making the system work to work *with* it.
Will Blizzard be able to distribute the World of Warcraft beta through Bittorrent? I think BT will be one of the options, but for now a general server-client system, flaws and all, is still necessary.
Your opinions?
Comments
My opinion:
For proprietary systems such as Valve's Steam and Blizzard's Battlenet, I see bittorrent completely replacing standard host-to-client transfers, simply because the closed-source nature of their software will prevent (or at least discourage) "cheating" by downloading more than your share of packets per upload to a fellow filewanter. It cuts costs for the gamemakers (indirectly doing so for customers, I'd hope) and download speed/performance on the client end has no noticeable difference. [edit]I am making the assumption that such companies are smart enough not to use your processing power and bandwidth while you are actually in the game rather than participating in the transfer[/edit]
For standard propagation of files from sites like 3dGamers, Fileplanet, Fileshack, Gametab, Filefront, etc: by now I actually <i>look</i> for bittorrent downloads rather than standard IE downloads. Not only do I get to give a Miami-driver's-turn-signal-style salute to waiting in line for a download: I even get to see myself helping out others who share my tastes. However, I see myself in the minority: being computer literate enough to trust Bittorrent and understand how it works already cuts down on the number of possible users, and then you have to be able to accept sligthly slower download speeds if it's a poorly-seeded file. Then there's the aformentioned cheaters.
I see Bittorrent causing a rift in the types of download sites: there are those that have already invested money into coding "wait in line" or "premium downloader" systems, systems that generate enough revenue that adding/converting to bittorrent won't be profitable despite lower bandwidth overheads for hosting.
Then I can imagine sites like 3dGamers or GameTab will continue to pop up. These sites never had such high-cost-to-make systems, so they've adopted Bittorrent and its lower overheads rather happily. A smaller subcategory of this is distribution of files so popular that sites hosting them go down too quickly from the hits -- <a href='http://f.scarywater.net/' target='_blank'>this site</a> has seen that Bittorrent works beautifully for such popular files, and uses bittorrent to mirror the highly-demanded contents of many slashdotted sites, ranging from the Star Wars Kid video to the Animatrix trailers.
I'm still going to go for Bittorrent any day of the week.
[edit2]As for keeping download windows open: since I often have mine minimized to the tray, they usually sit there uploading until I remember about them. Admittedly I do stop them as soon as possible after I'm done, but that's less because of selfishness and more because my ISP already enforces a cap on me, and I don't want it to get tightened even further. I expect that many others are in the same situation.
Typhon is right. BitTorrent is a god send. Even 'greedy' users are forced to upload. And it works on a feedback system to make sure speeds are good, for example:
If there's only 1 seeder then people will have to wait longer to get their file. As such they will also have to upload while waiting in queue. If there are many seeders than they don't need to upload but there are enough seeders to comensate.
Even greedy people can't beat the system, unless someone develops a leech client. As far as I know one does not exist. Leaving the download window isn't as big a deal as people make it seem. As long as there is one dedicated seeder the file <b>will</b> get distributed.
And yes, I can't stand Fileshack or gamespy or any of those ad-landen trashy websites. I'll take a good ol' .torrent any day of the week.
Typhon is right. BitTorrent is a god send. Even 'greedy' users are forced to upload. And it works on a feedback system to make sure speeds are good, for example:
If there's only 1 seeder then people will have to wait longer to get their file. As such they will also have to upload while waiting in queue. If there are many seeders than they don't need to upload but there are enough seeders to comensate.
Even greedy people can't beat the system, unless someone develops a leech client. As far as I know one does not exist. Leaving the download window isn't as big a deal as people make it seem. As long as there is one dedicated seeder the file <b>will</b> get distributed.
And yes, I can't stand Fileshack or gamespy or any of those ad-landen trashy websites. I'll take a good ol' .torrent any day of the week. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
How are greedy users forced to upload? Im curious cuz I dont know much about BitTorrent..... <!--emo&???--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/confused.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='confused.gif' /><!--endemo-->
Some questions:
What if I throttle my upload rate ? Would that have a noticeable effect on download rate ? Does it really work on a one-for-one system ? Because that would mean my download speed is capped to my upload speed. Which does seem nuts because most upload speeds are capped way lower than download speed. Also, it wasn't my experience when using it.
Also, who decides who to host the trackers ? Is it a central server, or can it be anybody ?
One of the problems I have with BT is that it has no inherent search capabilities built into the system; it's just a download system. Networks that Kazaa and eDonkey work off have search functions. This is probably also a turn off for most people - unless you have the BT pointer file, you can't do anything with it.
A small gripe: I think I downloaded the BT client that Marik posted earlier, and it just dumped itself in C:\ - all it said was that it had been installed. That's a pretty crappy installer.
RE upload and download speeds capped at different values. from my own experience downloads through BT never use anywhere NEAR my max upload speed so its not an issue.
Trackers are set up individually by the people that want to spread the file. You just run some program from bittorrent (designed for running a tracker, not the BT downloader).
You'll always get greedy bastages. I for one have a program called "Netlimiter" running that can throttle up/download speeds for all the programs talking to the 'net. You can set up schedules and rules. It's a great program if you want to download stuff off bittorrent but don't want your entire network bogged whilst it's doing so. I set it to unlimited upload speed or, if the file's finished downloading, I set bittorrent to super-seed mode by which it somehow seeds more effectively when I go to bed.
--Scythe--
I still think lack of search resources makes the system less useful for the average Joe.
But I can see why game companies are interested in it - for specific content downloads, very nice.
Don't forget that you're sharing while downloading too, so it's a double whammy.
I'd say it can obviously work as long as the companies open 100-200 seeds themselves, and rely on users for the rest.
To those who worry about people not sharing the bandwidth: your download speed is somewhat proportional to your upload speed (whoever has the highest upload speed/amount gets pushed to the front of the downloading line), and fileserver still provides some bandwidth by seeding the file for as long as the tracker is running. When there are few people interested in downloading the file or seeding, it basically just becomes a standard download, with the server uploading to a client.
The biggets problem is getting over the stigma of illegality for P2P, but that's not really an issue when it's clearly a legal file (demo, patch, movie) and coming from a reputable source (the publisher's website).
For those of you interested in a better GUI for BT, I'd get burst. The only things it needs is an update to the newer BT protocols so it runs a little more efficiently. I think you can use it on top of the regular BT client, but I haven't messed with it.
Starchy: BT has never used more than 5% of my CPU. You can also lower the priority of the process if it interferes with something, and throttle the bandwidth down to about 80% of your max upload so you can still surf the internet without trouble (but you still can't play NS while uploading).
Mojo, one seed with a large pipe and decent CPU is the same as a large number of seeds.
Creep: FTP servers are as unlikely to go down as the BT tracker, so the server going down isn't an issue when it's provided by a business (rather than just some guy sharing files).
Scythe: ARG! Don't turn on super-seeder mode unless you're the first person sharing a file! It messes things up. It's only intended for the situation where there's only a few seeders and a whole lot of downloaders.
Killswitch: You can't create a leech client, as you upload stats aren't stored locally (like they are in Kazaa, which makes it easy to hack). The only way for you to increase your upload stat is to upload <i>something</i>, so it might as well be the correct thing.
edit: some links: <a href='http://krypt.dyndns.org:81/torrent/index.phtml' target='_blank'>burst</a> (nicest GUI)
<a href='http://bt.degreez.net/' target='_blank'>shadow's experimental client</a> (getting this to run from the burst GUI didn't work as well as I wanted, but I still like this better than the official client if you want the most optimized BT version)
<a href='http://bitconjurer.org/BitTorrent/download.html' target='_blank'>Official BT client page</a>
I did my first .torrent download two days ago, and it was pretty much 1 to 1 on uploads and downloads
to show it is a FT member dl'ing and post again when you are done.
its simple and works.. and a general share code gboes on.. i always get my cap rate. nothing less.
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I refuse to believe that there are THAT many new people joining the torrent every minute, and all of them are asking MY machine for the bits they don't have... unless others are not uploading. Factor in that seeds are JUST uploading, and a number of peoples' admissions that they use leech-versions, and it becomes quite a plausible explanation.
Personally, I avoid it like the plague. No reason for my bandwidth to feed the leeches.
"You can't create a leech client, as you upload stats aren't stored locally (like they are in Kazaa, which makes it easy to hack). The only way for you to increase your upload stat is to upload something, so it might as well be the correct thing."
I'll take his word for it as I have never heard of a BT leech client and I regularly check up on File sharing news. The question isn't "Can BitTorrent work?" but how far can it go?
I have no idea why you uploaded 8 times as much as you downloaded. If you could take a screenshot of Gigs downloaded vs. Gigs uploaded, than I'd believe you as I've never heard of such a disparity occuring.
I've already forwarded the neccessary ports, with another BT user checking over the tables to make sure. He usually gets around 60-70KB/s or so, and is also stymied as to why I get such a lousy rate. The ISP I go through has a non-blocking policy, so it's nothing they're doing.
When I finally finish a download, it's not unusual to have uploaded it 6-10 times in entirety.
Blizzard's move to BT is great for them. MMORPGs take a ALOT of bandwith to run. Blizzard is just moving the burden around for better service for all.
A moral/legal issue though: BitTorrent, if used professionaly, let's companies use ISP's bandwith for free to distribute files. Is that right? Sure, the user is choosing to do it, but it still seems like a tricky legal area.
Tal: I've got a 3000/380 cable connection, which is probably what your friend has, and with an upload speed of 40kbps I'll usually dl at 60-80 kbps after the first few minutes. I suspect the problem is somewhere on your end, but not sure if you can fix it. I'm going to assume you don't have the BT ports blocked off. That leaves a badly configged BT client or something outside your control (like lots of peers with poor configs). Either way, you shouldn't have uploaded more than about twice (often 1-1 or less) by the time you complete the file.
Upload speed should be not much more than ~80% of you max upload speed, or else your line will get saturated and you won't be able to download anything. (most common mistake besides firewall/NAT)
There also might be problems with some of the finer config details. The Shadow's Experimental client (linked in last post) has a pretty good descriptions of what optimal settings are via tooltips. Or, there's <a href='http://btfaq.com/serve/cache/1.html' target='_blank'>this FAQ</a> which has a section under tech issues about slow speeds.
I've been running the experimental clients (as at least until recently they were the only ones with upload throttling) setting my upload cap to 12KB/s as the initial swamp without it left me downloading at about 0.5KB/s or so, when I was lucky, and unable to do ANYTHING, uploading at the maxed 16KB/s, fully swamped.
I'll take a look at that FAQ, but I don't hold much hope. May just stick with eMule Plus, or Shareaza (and yes, the BT manager in THAT is borked, too.. along with the upstream limiter).
At 1.5 kb a sec, i gave up.
In total I think I have downloaded around 160GB using the bittorrent client, and have uploaded around the same amount. I usually leave my computer open for the night for new episodes to pop up on my hard-drive, so my dl/up ratio is something like 200%.
Someone said earlier that the biggest problem of the bittorrent network is that the tracker goes down. Actually I have found that this is not a big problem, especially not on anime trackers considering they are on good servers ^^. But the main reason is the 0 seeder problem. This problem pops up when you want to download a file that is a bit older.
When there is 0 seeders, even if there were ten thousand leechers you'd never get the full file. You'd get as much from the file as how much the leecher with the biggest amount of the file has. This is where the community part usually steps in, and a quick question at the irc channel of the tracker or the forum usually brings seeders along.
This would not be a problem with a program like Steam, considering they will use their own servers as seeders I believe.
The absolutely best bittorrent program to use with windows is ABC in my opinion. The other windows clients don't even compete to it. But considering I use Slackware that ain't an option for me, because the alpha linux version is not very usable imho. On linux, either there is a problem with me or somewhere, but most people can't get the original bittorrent gui working and I'm one of them. But I found a way better program to use on linux.
First I used Azureus, but I didn't like it. Then I found an awesome piece of software. Gnome Bittorrent. It's a simple frontend for bittorrent, but imho it's awesome. I personally recommend it for all linux users <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif' /><!--endemo--> . It doesn't have all the downloads in one window, but I just throw all those little windows to another virtual desktop ^^.
I was once a leecher, not due to being greedy, but due to not knowing any other clients than the original Bittorrent, and that said Bittorrent totally choking my 256k/256k bandwidth.
However, things are looking much brighter since I got a 1M/512k and switched to Shad0w's experimental BT client. Now I can easily download and surf/IRC at the same time and limit the upload so that I get enough upstream even for gaming while seeding. Therefore my d/u ratio has gone from something like 0.50 to 1.0-2.0 and I can live with a clear consciense. *^____^*