O.k, I know this thread is due to die, but an 8-hour shift at B&Q trying to explain our returns policy to irrate customers gave me plenty of time to think <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif' /><!--endemo-->
Rei is half-Lillith, correct? Rei is also a clone of Yui, right? The first, but easily dismissable question is where did Ikari get the genetic material to clone Yui, but if we put that down to "technology" that leaves another question; how did Ikari just "create" a clone that was half-Lillith? Surely he knew that Rei was part-Lillith, since he needed her to be for his final objective, freeing Yui from unit 01.
Now unless i'm very much mistaken, making a Human/source-of-all-life clone is a tad on the tricky side, so do we simply, again, put it down to "technology", or am I missing something?
Secondly, at what point did Rei suddenly become aware that she was part-lillith? She obviously didn't know at the beginning, hence all the angsty poetry. Further evidence that she had no clue what she was is in her breif "conversation" with Kawro (can someone PLEASE tell me the correct spelling of that? I personally think it's Kauro). He remarks that she is "like him" and she just gets sort of **** off (as far as it's possible for Rei to display any emotion at all).
I suppose it was some time around when her arm, almost comically, fell off, but it still raises the question of how she suddenly knew how to merge with Adam. I suppose we could put that down to her powers becoming "active" due to whatever it was that was happening outside.
And that raises another question, Ikari said that the AT field was no-longer able to sustain Rei, hence "oops my arm fell off", but what AT field? Why was it suddenly so vital that Ikari finish his task, other than the MiBs coming to get him? My guess would be that Rei needs to be "maintained" every so often (I seem to remember Rei being in a tube at some point, but I think that was for the dummy plug system), and with the remaining Rei clones destroyed, there is only a limited time a soul-less body can sustain itself. Am I even close?
I can only imagine how confusing this must all sound to someone who hasn't seen the movie <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin.gif' /><!--endemo-->
I mean... if you read into it, its a fairly obvious hint that she's not entirely human and she's trying to reconcile that information.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> where did Ikari get the genetic material to clone Yui <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Well he was her husband, he's bound to have some keepsakes...
As for Lilith, they do have her under lock and key in NERV HQ, so again acquiring material wouldn't be hard.
When she talks to Kaworu (easiest way to spell it), she wonders who he is and how they are alike......... that doesn't necessarily mean she doesn't know she's half angel.
Kaworu intended to unite Adam's soul with Liliths body..... Gendo intended to unite Adam's body with Lilith's soul.
Gendo seems to have trained or instructed Rei in what to do, because she doesn't question what "it is time" for.
As to why she's falling apart..... it could be the proximity to her "true" body - Lilith. It could also be that she requires some form of maintenance. When EVAs and their pilots aren't correctly in tune, their AT field doesn't work. If Rei is part Lilith part Yui then she could be in the same situation, with proximity to Lilith moving her out of synch. She definitely has a soul of some form though.
Oh crap. I've just discovered something that has turned my whole take on the story to mush. The thing on the cross at the bottom of NERV HQ, I thought it was Adam. It was Lillith.
This makes the story make a lot more sense in some ways, and a lot less in others.
For a start, this means that Rei must have been part-angel; since the third impact requires an angel, and lillith. This makes sense, as it means Rei is basically the same as Kauro was.
After a length PM session with Kuroneko (thanks!) on IRC, I have determined the following:
-Rei was part angel, same as Kawuro. -Instrumentality and the third impact are 2 different things -Gendo wanted the former, Rei caused the latter -Instrumentality occured in the end. Which raises the question what WAS the third impact anyway if it just caused H.I.P to occur anyway? -Kawuro was trying to find Adam becaue (I believe it was mentioned at some point) if two angels merge, it will cause an apocalypse, i.e, no 3rd impact, everyone just dies. I don't like this explaination, can anyone do better?
<a href='http://kuroneko.gotdns.com:27018/hotline/goodstuff/text/evangelion/evangelion.pdf' target='_blank'>This</a> was what sparked my confusion anew. Anyone care to argue with anything there?
*edit* Not a stable source, if someone else could host it I would be greaful *edit*
If you want comments on that PDF, ask me specifics - not going to analyse 34 pages just to find one or two minor niggles.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> -Rei was part angel, same as Kawuro. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Correctamundo!
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> -Instrumentality and the third impact are 2 different things <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Not necessarily. Third Impact is just an Angel-run version of Instrumentality. If Shinji had entirely rejected the existence of man then it would have been no different from an Angel-run Third Impact.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> -Gendo wanted the former, Rei caused the latter <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I think we are to believe Gendo wanted Yui in a perfect world. Rei was to be the tool, but developed her own desire - which was to unite with Shinji.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> -Instrumentality occured in the end. Which raises the question what WAS the third impact anyway if it just caused H.I.P to occur anyway? <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Third Impact would have been nothing short of the extermination of mankind.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> -Kawuro was trying to find Adam becaue (I believe it was mentioned at some point) if two angels merge, it will cause an apocalypse, i.e, no 3rd impact, everyone just dies. I don't like this explaination, can anyone do better? <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Third Impact IS the apocalypse. As all humans would try to return to Lilith, all Angels would try to return to Adam.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->(can someone PLEASE tell me the correct spelling of that? I personally think it's Kauro)<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> There is no correct spelling; it's a Japanese name. Just spell it as phoenetically as you can.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Kaworu intended to unite Adam's soul with Liliths body..... Gendo intended to unite Adam's body with Lilith's soul.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Explain? What's the difference?
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->The thing on the cross at the bottom of NERV HQ, I thought it was Adam. It was Lillith.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Yes, they sort of made that clear <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif' /><!--endemo-->. That's what Kawaru realised when he reached terminal dogma, which is (one of the reasons) why he allowed Shinji to kill him - because he failed his mission. See the point on why Kawaru was trying to find Adam. Adam was the fried-omelette thingy.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Rei was part angel, same as Kawuro.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> More or less. I think Kawaru was fully angel. I don't know how SEELE got their grubby mitts on him, however.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->-Gendo wanted the former, Rei caused the latter -Instrumentality occured in the end. Which raises the question what WAS the third impact anyway if it just caused H.I.P to occur anyway?<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Not exactly. SEELE wanted Instrumentality, the Angels wanted Third Impact, Gendo just wanted to see his wife again, and Rei had her own agenda. I don't know what Rei caused, and I don't know how Gendo intended to see his wife. SEELE send Kawaru (and, later, the JDF) because Gendo was deviating from the plan. They had always intended to cause Instrumentality.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->-Kawuro was trying to find Adam becaue (I believe it was mentioned at some point) if two angels merge, it will cause an apocalypse, i.e, no 3rd impact, everyone just dies. I don't like this explaination, can anyone do better?<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> No... if an angel and Adam merge, it causes 3rd Impact. Under certain circumstances, Instrumentality is... derived from 3rd Impact. Kawaru was sent by SEELE, who believed that it was Adam in terminal dogma, to instigate 3rd Impact (since it looked like Gendo was no longer cooperative) so that they could start Instrumentality. Apocalypse doesn't figure anywhere in it.
QuaunautThe longest seven days in history...Join Date: 2003-03-21Member: 14759Members, Constellation, Reinforced - Shadow
<!--QuoteBegin-ZERG!!+Feb 28 2004, 10:24 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (ZERG!! @ Feb 28 2004, 10:24 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->My question is; why is a plug suit nessesary? On several occasions Shinji pilots one in his ordinary clothes. I think it's just so that they could put Rei and Asuka in tight clothing tbh... I guess the animators wanted a break from depth. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
If he was piloting without one it wouldn't be necessary would it? <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif' /><!--endemo--> I think there is a real explaination for it somewhere in the series. Maybe not. <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif' /><!--endemo-->
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Weggy, I was reffering to Kauro's powers compared to humans, not compared to other angels. I seem to remember it's said at some point that humans are the 18th angel, so, as I asked before, how come Kauro has the powers and Humans don't.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
He is an angel that has a human form. That's it. Plain and simple. An angel that looks like a human and it ends there. He is born of Adam and bla blah blah he says this explicitly that because the soul of Eva 02 is hiding itself and that it is also made of Adam, he can control it.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Shinji KILLED Asuka. That in the end was everything he wanted....her love, and power over her. He got that when he became a God.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> The sequance is one of the most hotly debated in Eva circles all over the world. Until now there was no definitive answer to the mystery. However, this may be the absolute answer, held within the Eva Carddass Masters Trading Card Game. ...
"Shinji renounced the world where all hearts had melted into one and accepted each other unconditionally. His desire... to live with 'others' -- other hearts that would sometimes reject him, even deny him. That is why the first thing he did after coming to his senses was to place his hands around Asuka's neck. To feel the existence of an 'other'. To confirm (make sure of) rejection and denial."
The scene is meant to be an affirmation of Shinji's decision to return to reality. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
This is probably the only scene that never made sense no matter how many times I watch the series. Even if it makes sense to me now it still doesn't help because you still can't figure it out without outside sources. Lame!
There is no prior evidence that lead up to this scene. The only clue is the same strangulation scene that occurs during instrumentality. Someone told me, that during this prior scene Shinji does something he would've been able to do if it were real. You think Asuka would just let him do that? Yeah, not with her personality. So it all makes sense.
Gainix instead of redoing the scene places it in a card game. GG
Ok I'm spending too much time on this. I'll let you gusy continue with yourselves. <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif' /><!--endemo--> <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> The plug suit is not NECESSARY, but it helps significantly. Without it, it reacts kind of sluggishly compared to how it usually acts with the plug suit(hence the episode when their all nude why things seem much slower...)
With Kaoru, yes, he's just a angel in human form. In End of Evangelion, while Shinji and Misato are in the car, driving past the first eva series(the spines with eva heads), Misato explains it to Shinji.
Reason why Gainax put those in a card game was because card games were the rage in Japan at the time, much like Mechs. Hence why both were big in its development and publicity(the first, original, Evangelion design had NO mechs, and Shinji/Asuka/Rei/Touji/Kaoru were test subjects for different things).
QuaunautThe longest seven days in history...Join Date: 2003-03-21Member: 14759Members, Constellation, Reinforced - Shadow
<!--QuoteBegin-SoulSkorpion+Feb 29 2004, 08:25 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (SoulSkorpion @ Feb 29 2004, 08:25 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->(can someone PLEASE tell me the correct spelling of that? I personally think it's Kauro)<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> There is no correct spelling; it's a Japanese name. Just spell it as phoenetically as you can.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Kaworu intended to unite Adam's soul with Liliths body..... Gendo intended to unite Adam's body with Lilith's soul.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Explain? What's the difference?
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->The thing on the cross at the bottom of NERV HQ, I thought it was Adam. It was Lillith.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Yes, they sort of made that clear <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif' /><!--endemo-->. That's what Kawaru realised when he reached terminal dogma, which is (one of the reasons) why he allowed Shinji to kill him - because he failed his mission. See the point on why Kawaru was trying to find Adam. Adam was the fried-omelette thingy.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Rei was part angel, same as Kawuro.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> More or less. I think Kawaru was fully angel. I don't know how SEELE got their grubby mitts on him, however.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->-Gendo wanted the former, Rei caused the latter -Instrumentality occured in the end. Which raises the question what WAS the third impact anyway if it just caused H.I.P to occur anyway?<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Not exactly. SEELE wanted Instrumentality, the Angels wanted Third Impact, Gendo just wanted to see his wife again, and Rei had her own agenda. I don't know what Rei caused, and I don't know how Gendo intended to see his wife. SEELE send Kawaru (and, later, the JDF) because Gendo was deviating from the plan. They had always intended to cause Instrumentality.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->-Kawuro was trying to find Adam becaue (I believe it was mentioned at some point) if two angels merge, it will cause an apocalypse, i.e, no 3rd impact, everyone just dies. I don't like this explaination, can anyone do better?<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> No... if an angel and Adam merge, it causes 3rd Impact. Under certain circumstances, Instrumentality is... derived from 3rd Impact. Kawaru was sent by SEELE, who believed that it was Adam in terminal dogma, to instigate 3rd Impact (since it looked like Gendo was no longer cooperative) so that they could start Instrumentality. Apocalypse doesn't figure anywhere in it. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> Actually Soul, your missing quite a few things(ignore dbl post).
For Kaoru's name, yeah.
First off, Kaoru didn't plan on uniting anything. Thats one thing few people cought- they THOUGHT(the human beings) they were supposed to unite them. But in fact, that wasn't it at all. All they had to do was...well, hard to explain. More or less, force Adam and Lillith to WISH to work together, and thus create Third Impact.
Oh, and yes, Adam was the fride-omelette thing Kaji had(I thought it looked like a sea shell...), returned to embryo form through colonization(removing of specific cells).
Also, SEELE wanted Instrumentality(Third Impact), Gendo Wanted Third Impact(which IS Instrumentality), Angels Wanted Third Impact(Instrumentality), and Rei just wanted to protect Ikari(which turned out to be Shinji in the very end. A sisterly kind of protection, not lover).
Kaoru wasn't trying to merge anything. The humans always thought it was merging, but they forgot the angels, being they lost the ability to be humans, became angels(and thus, had the powers of God, but unlike us, no free will. Thats how they are seperated: God has Infinite power and free will, Angels have Infinite power, and Humans have free will). The "Apocolypse" spoken of IS 3rd Impact. Its the merging of all human souls(when really, its nothing like that. Its just the crunching together of human souls, which are contained in the sea of LCL). Apocolypse figures into it- its just the same thing as the 2 other things which are the same, Instrumentality and Third Impact).
So if there's really no difference between 3rd Impact and Instrumentality, why did SEELE need to reign in Gendo? And, for that matter, why didn't they just let the Angels get to Adam?
And I'm still not clear on what it is that triggers 3rd Impact. Is it only Adam and Lillith merging (or working together. Or whatever), or is it any angel and Adam?
<!--QuoteBegin-SoulSkorpion+Mar 1 2004, 01:18 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (SoulSkorpion @ Mar 1 2004, 01:18 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> So if there's really no difference between 3rd Impact and Instrumentality, why did SEELE need to reign in Gendo? And, for that matter, why didn't they just let the Angels get to Adam? <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> If I understand correctly, because SEELE didn't want Gendo to become god, because bascially they didn't want him to have that sort of power, they wanted to control the 3rd impact themselves.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Yes, they sort of made that clear <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif' /><!--endemo--> . <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Yeah I know, I mis-heard a pretty critical part of the plot. I thought Kauro was looking for Lillith and found Adam, but he was looking for Adam and found Lillith.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->And I'm still not clear on what it is that triggers 3rd Impact. Is it only Adam and Lillith merging (or working together. Or whatever), or is it any angel and Adam? <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
This is what I would like to know. It seems to suggest that it can be any angel, hence Rei was able to trigger 3rd impact in the end, and Adam didn't even figure into it. This raises the question; what was Kauro trying to do with Adam? Re-unite? For what purpose?
Every time I have one question answered it make my answer to another wrong, but I must be doing well since I only have 2 things I don't understand now <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif' /><!--endemo-->
QuaunautThe longest seven days in history...Join Date: 2003-03-21Member: 14759Members, Constellation, Reinforced - Shadow
See, what Rei triggered was 3rd Impact- but the reason Kaoru couldn't was because of something mentioned earlier-
Rei was a empty husk. Even the "real" Rei was JUST A EMPTY HUSK(hence why she will always do what told to). Being she was made the same ways the Evas were(cloning), she was a empty one.
And Nil found one of the keys- they didn't want Gendo with that power. They ended up getting it themselves, except 1 thing screwed up- Shinji decided to be the piece of the species that got to stay back.
See, Rei triggered 3rd Impact, which made Shinji a God, because she wished for him to be the one(and SEELE knew she would). Kaoru couldn't do it because he was a Angel- Rei was just getting herself a Soul(and thus, Rei became Lillith).
Kaoru wanted to return Adam to his regular state of Godliness, and cause 3rd Impact(which Kaoru would control, being Adam too is just a empty husk. Lillith is the mother of everything, which is kind of odd in her order- she was the second human, but she bore Adam. Thus, she was the 1st and second, because really all she did was slice herself in 2, making man and woman(in which then Adam bore the angels, and Lillith bore the human Race[with the human adam and eve]).
Actually all evidence points to Kaworu being not entirely "genuine Angel".
On reflection I should have said Kaworu wished to return to Adam, as opposed to saying he intended to unite with Lilith, d'oh! He chats to SEELE, he's told he was salvaged from Adam, his goal seems to be getting into contact with Adam and proceeding from there.
But then noone can really say whose goals he was following.
SEELE didn't want the pilots, certainly didn't *need* Kaworu, just the EVA series. And the only real concern NERV had at the time was for Unit O1 going a bit funny in the presence of an Angel (Kaworu).
It would seem that there were several versions of 3rd Impact. One would be an Angel meeting Adam and wiping out everything - the Angel's thesis, if you will, haha. Resurrecting Adam and allowing him free reign to splatter everything. Another would be the fusion of EVA 01 with the EVA production series under the influence of Kaworu dummy plugs - creating the single mind entity which SEELE craved. Yet another would be the creation of some God-deity by the fusion of Adam and Lilith to create something with the life of an Angel and the knowledge of Man. Gendo's objective - or at least the only thing which makes sense. Its also the only thing running counter to SEELE's objective.
Then you've got what actually happened - an apparent melding of possibilities. The fusion which created the God-Rei who "served" Shinji. Part of Gendo's plan and part of SEELE's plan - evidently SEELE had planned the crucifixion of EVA 01 since they go along with events as they follow - though no doubt unaware of the fusion of Adam and Lilith until the last moment.
These seem to be the two points which no-one can agree on:
1. What actually causes the third impact? I've heard
A: two angels B: an angel and Adam C: an Angel and Lillith D: Lillith and Adam.
Which is right?
2. What was Kawuro's objective? If he wanted to start the 3rd impact, B: must have been true, but that would not explain how Rei started the third impact with Lillith, I can only conclude Kawuro did not want to start the third impact. So what WAS he trying to do?
Adam was the little egg thing, right? Adam didn't seem to factor into the 3rd impact at any point, which suggests A: or C: would HAVE to be true. Lillith clearly factors into the impact, which suggests C, an Angel and Lillith are required to start the third impact. This makes sense as Rei clearly merges with Lillith.
The other point I was unclear on was the difference between instrumentality, and the third impact. As I now understand it, the third impact is the trigger, which could end in humanity's destruction or salvation, wheras instrumentality is the end result; salvation in the form of the giant coolade puddle.
Sudden realisation: I think I get why Seele didn't want Gendo to start instrumentality himself, and why Gendo DID.
The one who starts instrumentality gets to decide the fate of the human race; an angel would certainly choose humankind's destruction. Gendo would have chosen salvation, but Seele didn't want to take that chance. In the end we see both Shinji and Asuka are un-melded, no doubt by Shinji's will. Gendo could have used that power to bring back Yui, who he was willing to do anything to get back.
The other question now raised (on a whole new level I never considered before) is this: if we assume the 3rd impact requires Lillith and an angel, and Rei was the angel in the impact, why wasn't it Rei who ultimately made the choice of humanity's future? My guess; she was only part Angel. She wasn't capable of starting the third impact on her own, she was always just, as mentioned, a tool. She needed a human being to make the final descision, which was Shinji, although Gendo did not expect Rei to reject him.
That in turn raises ANOTHER question (I told you ever time I answer one I raise another); what was SEELE going to use as their angel if they killed Rei? My guess; Adam.
I think when we come down to it, there are many different interpretations of EoE, I just want to know the most likely one to be correct <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif' /><!--endemo-->
I'm still not seeing Inf yet, but then he did state that he didn't like Evangelion...
*edit* With new-impoved layout for easy-read action! *edit*
Nil, the third-impact can occur a number of ways. SEELE's version used Eva-01 and their MP evas which they lost a few during the fight hence why they say "we have less evas than expected blah blah." Plus the Lance.
Their recipe for destruction is: Eva-01 (clone of lilith), MP Evas, and the Lance and the replicas.
Gendo's involved the real Lilith, Adam and Rei. When Rei stole Gendo's arm she also took Adam with her (its fused to his hand remember?). Gendo's version of third impact did not involve reverting everyone to LCL. Pay attention to the beginning conversion between him and SEELE. It seems he only cared about reuniting with his wife.
The angel's also can cause third impact.
It's all a matter who wants control of it. In the end, Rei betrays Gendo and hands Shinji control over third impact.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->The other point I was unclear on was the difference between instrumentality, and the third impact. As I now understand it, the third impact is the trigger, which could end in humanity's destruction or salvation, wheras instrumentality is the end result; salvation in the form of the giant coolade puddle.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
There is no difference. The whole impact name is just a coverup. Impact refers to the supposed meteorite that struck the earth.
The Second Event would be Adam going ape in Antarctica.
Third Event would be some dramatic change related to the Angels.
Now, that event could have been Adam and Kaworu fusing. So why did SEELE send him? Consider that Kaworu believed Adam was in NERVs inner sanctum. SEELE know otherwise, but send in Kaworu because he'll very likely level the base to get to Adam - imagine if he'd got control of more EVA units. Kaworu would eventually find Lilith and reach a dead end in his search for Adam. Lets bear in mind that Unit 01 was for all intents and purposes an Angel but STILL got slapped about in the end by the Mass Production models. Thus SEELE can then sweep in, recover Unit 01 with their Mass Production EVA units, and go about the business of turning everyone to LCL.
Outcome - Man turns to LCL, individuality ceases to exist.
That event could also have been Adam fusing with any Angel - turning him back into his immediate pre-Second Impact form (logic - tiny Rei fuses with Lilith to become giant Rei-Lilith. Tiny Adam plus any Angel makes giant Angel-Adam). Mankind gets wiped out by a very annoyed Adam, Adam inherits the Earth.
Outcome - Game over man, game over!
Another event could be Gendo making himself Adam, fusing with Rei-Lilith to create some godlike entity and/or freeing Yui from (presumably) Unit 01. He sees HIP/HCP as death, so its unlikely he initiates SEELE's procedure.
Outcome - Gendo rules the WOORRRRRRRRLLLLD!!! Or retires to the country with Yui. Maybe he sends the remaning EVA to rip SEELE to small pieces so that he can enjoy life with Yui. Choose your own ending.
While all three events have wildly different outcomes all three were potential Third Events. The fact that Gendo and SEELE show no surprise at events indicates that at least SOME of what happened correlated to the predicted HIP/HCP. SEELE assumed they had initiated their plan successfully, Gendo realised his hadn't worked when Rei amputated his hand (and since no genuine Angel got its hands on Adam we can safely ignore the Angel outcome of the Third Event).
<!--QuoteBegin-pieceofsoap+Feb 27 2004, 04:01 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (pieceofsoap @ Feb 27 2004, 04:01 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> I have yet to see anything Gainax has done that has been even remotely "Normal" <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> Watch "Wings of Honneamise", an old school anime feature film from Gainax and Bandai I think. It's rather "normal" sci-fi (first steps into space by humans, although in an "alternative" world/universe). Gorgeous visuals and music.
That explanation makes a lot of sense, Necrosis. There's still one thing I don't completely get: what did Shinji choose?
Of course everyone got turned into LCL, but there was that business about everyone's souls flying away into space; does that mean he chose to end humanity?
QuaunautThe longest seven days in history...Join Date: 2003-03-21Member: 14759Members, Constellation, Reinforced - Shadow
Ok. First to "What Caused Third Impact, and what Can":
ANYONE CAN. HUMAN BEINGS CAN. All they need is to figure out HOW to extricate their soul, OR know how to change their own DNA code so it'll clone someone else's. Then combine that with omnipotence, and tadah.
Also, to Shinji and what he chose:
He chose to just cancel Third Impact, and let there be one of human being. And he chose Asuka(being he found out what Rei really was, and he knew Misato was in love with Kaji, and that the both of them were all alone).
Sounds like there are a few interpretations of EoE. I've found one that I like, that makes relative sense, so i'm going to stick with it as you all seem to be sticking to yours.
I've only seen each episode and the movie once, so i'm probably not in the best position to try and argue my perception as correct. The only query I now have is that if Kawuro was looking for Adam but found Lillith, why couldn't he have used Lillith to start the 3rd impact?
As you said yourself Quaunaut, there are a number of combinations that would work (which appears to be truth by convenience- it's the easiest solution so let's hope it's true), so why couldn't Kawuro and Lillith have caused the 3rd impact?
I also apparently missed that Adam was fused to Gendo's hand. As I said, i've only seen it through once.
Comments
Rei is half-Lillith, correct? Rei is also a clone of Yui, right? The first, but easily dismissable question is where did Ikari get the genetic material to clone Yui, but if we put that down to "technology" that leaves another question; how did Ikari just "create" a clone that was half-Lillith? Surely he knew that Rei was part-Lillith, since he needed her to be for his final objective, freeing Yui from unit 01.
Now unless i'm very much mistaken, making a Human/source-of-all-life clone is a tad on the tricky side, so do we simply, again, put it down to "technology", or am I missing something?
Secondly, at what point did Rei suddenly become aware that she was part-lillith? She obviously didn't know at the beginning, hence all the angsty poetry. Further evidence that she had no clue what she was is in her breif "conversation" with Kawro (can someone PLEASE tell me the correct spelling of that? I personally think it's Kauro). He remarks that she is "like him" and she just gets sort of **** off (as far as it's possible for Rei to display any emotion at all).
I suppose it was some time around when her arm, almost comically, fell off, but it still raises the question of how she suddenly knew how to merge with Adam. I suppose we could put that down to her powers becoming "active" due to whatever it was that was happening outside.
And that raises another question, Ikari said that the AT field was no-longer able to sustain Rei, hence "oops my arm fell off", but what AT field? Why was it suddenly so vital that Ikari finish his task, other than the MiBs coming to get him? My guess would be that Rei needs to be "maintained" every so often (I seem to remember Rei being in a tube at some point, but I think that was for the dummy plug system), and with the remaining Rei clones destroyed, there is only a limited time a soul-less body can sustain itself. Am I even close?
I can only imagine how confusing this must all sound to someone who hasn't seen the movie <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin.gif' /><!--endemo-->
<a href='http://www.lonelyangel.com/sections/rei_poem.php' target='_blank'>http://www.lonelyangel.com/sections/rei_poem.php</a>
I mean... if you read into it, its a fairly obvious hint that she's not entirely human and she's trying to reconcile that information.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->
where did Ikari get the genetic material to clone Yui
<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Well he was her husband, he's bound to have some keepsakes...
As for Lilith, they do have her under lock and key in NERV HQ, so again acquiring material wouldn't be hard.
When she talks to Kaworu (easiest way to spell it), she wonders who he is and how they are alike......... that doesn't necessarily mean she doesn't know she's half angel.
Kaworu intended to unite Adam's soul with Liliths body..... Gendo intended to unite Adam's body with Lilith's soul.
Gendo seems to have trained or instructed Rei in what to do, because she doesn't question what "it is time" for.
As to why she's falling apart..... it could be the proximity to her "true" body - Lilith. It could also be that she requires some form of maintenance. When EVAs and their pilots aren't correctly in tune, their AT field doesn't work. If Rei is part Lilith part Yui then she could be in the same situation, with proximity to Lilith moving her out of synch. She definitely has a soul of some form though.
This makes the story make a lot more sense in some ways, and a lot less in others.
For a start, this means that Rei must have been part-angel; since the third impact requires an angel, and lillith. This makes sense, as it means Rei is basically the same as Kauro was.
After a length PM session with Kuroneko (thanks!) on IRC, I have determined the following:
-Rei was part angel, same as Kawuro.
-Instrumentality and the third impact are 2 different things
-Gendo wanted the former, Rei caused the latter
-Instrumentality occured in the end. Which raises the question what WAS the third impact anyway if it just caused H.I.P to occur anyway?
-Kawuro was trying to find Adam becaue (I believe it was mentioned at some point) if two angels merge, it will cause an apocalypse, i.e, no 3rd impact, everyone just dies. I don't like this explaination, can anyone do better?
<a href='http://kuroneko.gotdns.com:27018/hotline/goodstuff/text/evangelion/evangelion.pdf' target='_blank'>This</a> was what sparked my confusion anew. Anyone care to argue with anything there?
*edit* Not a stable source, if someone else could host it I would be greaful *edit*
Please tell me if i'm wrong.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->
-Rei was part angel, same as Kawuro.
<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Correctamundo!
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->
-Instrumentality and the third impact are 2 different things
<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Not necessarily. Third Impact is just an Angel-run version of Instrumentality. If Shinji had entirely rejected the existence of man then it would have been no different from an Angel-run Third Impact.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->
-Gendo wanted the former, Rei caused the latter
<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I think we are to believe Gendo wanted Yui in a perfect world. Rei was to be the tool, but developed her own desire - which was to unite with Shinji.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->
-Instrumentality occured in the end. Which raises the question what WAS the third impact anyway if it just caused H.I.P to occur anyway?
<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Third Impact would have been nothing short of the extermination of mankind.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->
-Kawuro was trying to find Adam becaue (I believe it was mentioned at some point) if two angels merge, it will cause an apocalypse, i.e, no 3rd impact, everyone just dies. I don't like this explaination, can anyone do better?
<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Third Impact IS the apocalypse. As all humans would try to return to Lilith, all Angels would try to return to Adam.
Why do you not like this explanation?
There is no correct spelling; it's a Japanese name. Just spell it as phoenetically as you can.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Kaworu intended to unite Adam's soul with Liliths body..... Gendo intended to unite Adam's body with Lilith's soul.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Explain? What's the difference?
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->The thing on the cross at the bottom of NERV HQ, I thought it was Adam. It was Lillith.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Yes, they sort of made that clear <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif' /><!--endemo-->. That's what Kawaru realised when he reached terminal dogma, which is (one of the reasons) why he allowed Shinji to kill him - because he failed his mission. See the point on why Kawaru was trying to find Adam. Adam was the fried-omelette thingy.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Rei was part angel, same as Kawuro.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
More or less. I think Kawaru was fully angel. I don't know how SEELE got their grubby mitts on him, however.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->-Gendo wanted the former, Rei caused the latter
-Instrumentality occured in the end. Which raises the question what WAS the third impact anyway if it just caused H.I.P to occur anyway?<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Not exactly. SEELE wanted Instrumentality, the Angels wanted Third Impact, Gendo just wanted to see his wife again, and Rei had her own agenda. I don't know what Rei caused, and I don't know how Gendo intended to see his wife. SEELE send Kawaru (and, later, the JDF) because Gendo was deviating from the plan. They had always intended to cause Instrumentality.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->-Kawuro was trying to find Adam becaue (I believe it was mentioned at some point) if two angels merge, it will cause an apocalypse, i.e, no 3rd impact, everyone just dies. I don't like this explaination, can anyone do better?<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
No... if an angel and Adam merge, it causes 3rd Impact. Under certain circumstances, Instrumentality is... derived from 3rd Impact. Kawaru was sent by SEELE, who believed that it was Adam in terminal dogma, to instigate 3rd Impact (since it looked like Gendo was no longer cooperative) so that they could start Instrumentality. Apocalypse doesn't figure anywhere in it.
If he was piloting without one it wouldn't be necessary would it? <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif' /><!--endemo--> I think there is a real explaination for it somewhere in the series. Maybe not. <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif' /><!--endemo-->
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Weggy, I was reffering to Kauro's powers compared to humans, not compared to other angels. I seem to remember it's said at some point that humans are the 18th angel, so, as I asked before, how come Kauro has the powers and Humans don't.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
He is an angel that has a human form. That's it. Plain and simple. An angel that looks like a human and it ends there. He is born of Adam and bla blah blah he says this explicitly that because the soul of Eva 02 is hiding itself and that it is also made of Adam, he can control it.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Shinji KILLED Asuka. That in the end was everything he wanted....her love, and power over her. He got that when he became a God.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->
The sequance is one of the most hotly debated in Eva circles all over the world. Until now there was no definitive answer to the mystery. However, this may be the absolute answer, held within the Eva Carddass Masters Trading Card Game.
...
"Shinji renounced the world where all hearts had melted into one and accepted each other unconditionally. His desire... to live with 'others' -- other hearts that would sometimes reject him, even deny him. That is why the first thing he did after coming to his senses was to place his hands around Asuka's neck. To feel the existence of an 'other'. To confirm (make sure of) rejection and denial."
The scene is meant to be an affirmation of Shinji's decision to return to reality.
<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
This is probably the only scene that never made sense no matter how many times I watch the series. Even if it makes sense to me now it still doesn't help because you still can't figure it out without outside sources. Lame!
There is no prior evidence that lead up to this scene. The only clue is the same strangulation scene that occurs during instrumentality. Someone told me, that during this prior scene Shinji does something he would've been able to do if it were real. You think Asuka would just let him do that? Yeah, not with her personality. So it all makes sense.
Gainix instead of redoing the scene places it in a card game. GG
Ok I'm spending too much time on this. I'll let you gusy continue with yourselves. <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif' /><!--endemo--> <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
The plug suit is not NECESSARY, but it helps significantly. Without it, it reacts kind of sluggishly compared to how it usually acts with the plug suit(hence the episode when their all nude why things seem much slower...)
With Kaoru, yes, he's just a angel in human form. In End of Evangelion, while Shinji and Misato are in the car, driving past the first eva series(the spines with eva heads), Misato explains it to Shinji.
Reason why Gainax put those in a card game was because card games were the rage in Japan at the time, much like Mechs. Hence why both were big in its development and publicity(the first, original, Evangelion design had NO mechs, and Shinji/Asuka/Rei/Touji/Kaoru were test subjects for different things).
There is no correct spelling; it's a Japanese name. Just spell it as phoenetically as you can.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Kaworu intended to unite Adam's soul with Liliths body..... Gendo intended to unite Adam's body with Lilith's soul.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Explain? What's the difference?
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->The thing on the cross at the bottom of NERV HQ, I thought it was Adam. It was Lillith.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Yes, they sort of made that clear <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif' /><!--endemo-->. That's what Kawaru realised when he reached terminal dogma, which is (one of the reasons) why he allowed Shinji to kill him - because he failed his mission. See the point on why Kawaru was trying to find Adam. Adam was the fried-omelette thingy.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Rei was part angel, same as Kawuro.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
More or less. I think Kawaru was fully angel. I don't know how SEELE got their grubby mitts on him, however.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->-Gendo wanted the former, Rei caused the latter
-Instrumentality occured in the end. Which raises the question what WAS the third impact anyway if it just caused H.I.P to occur anyway?<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Not exactly. SEELE wanted Instrumentality, the Angels wanted Third Impact, Gendo just wanted to see his wife again, and Rei had her own agenda. I don't know what Rei caused, and I don't know how Gendo intended to see his wife. SEELE send Kawaru (and, later, the JDF) because Gendo was deviating from the plan. They had always intended to cause Instrumentality.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->-Kawuro was trying to find Adam becaue (I believe it was mentioned at some point) if two angels merge, it will cause an apocalypse, i.e, no 3rd impact, everyone just dies. I don't like this explaination, can anyone do better?<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
No... if an angel and Adam merge, it causes 3rd Impact. Under certain circumstances, Instrumentality is... derived from 3rd Impact. Kawaru was sent by SEELE, who believed that it was Adam in terminal dogma, to instigate 3rd Impact (since it looked like Gendo was no longer cooperative) so that they could start Instrumentality. Apocalypse doesn't figure anywhere in it. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
Actually Soul, your missing quite a few things(ignore dbl post).
For Kaoru's name, yeah.
First off, Kaoru didn't plan on uniting anything. Thats one thing few people cought- they THOUGHT(the human beings) they were supposed to unite them. But in fact, that wasn't it at all. All they had to do was...well, hard to explain. More or less, force Adam and Lillith to WISH to work together, and thus create Third Impact.
Oh, and yes, Adam was the fride-omelette thing Kaji had(I thought it looked like a sea shell...), returned to embryo form through colonization(removing of specific cells).
Also, SEELE wanted Instrumentality(Third Impact), Gendo Wanted Third Impact(which IS Instrumentality), Angels Wanted Third Impact(Instrumentality), and Rei just wanted to protect Ikari(which turned out to be Shinji in the very end. A sisterly kind of protection, not lover).
Kaoru wasn't trying to merge anything. The humans always thought it was merging, but they forgot the angels, being they lost the ability to be humans, became angels(and thus, had the powers of God, but unlike us, no free will. Thats how they are seperated: God has Infinite power and free will, Angels have Infinite power, and Humans have free will). The "Apocolypse" spoken of IS 3rd Impact. Its the merging of all human souls(when really, its nothing like that. Its just the crunching together of human souls, which are contained in the sea of LCL). Apocolypse figures into it- its just the same thing as the 2 other things which are the same, Instrumentality and Third Impact).
And I'm still not clear on what it is that triggers 3rd Impact. Is it only Adam and Lillith merging (or working together. Or whatever), or is it any angel and Adam?
If I understand correctly, because SEELE didn't want Gendo to become god, because bascially they didn't want him to have that sort of power, they wanted to control the 3rd impact themselves.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Yes, they sort of made that clear <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif' /><!--endemo--> . <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Yeah I know, I mis-heard a pretty critical part of the plot. I thought Kauro was looking for Lillith and found Adam, but he was looking for Adam and found Lillith.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->And I'm still not clear on what it is that triggers 3rd Impact. Is it only Adam and Lillith merging (or working together. Or whatever), or is it any angel and Adam? <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
This is what I would like to know. It seems to suggest that it can be any angel, hence Rei was able to trigger 3rd impact in the end, and Adam didn't even figure into it. This raises the question; what was Kauro trying to do with Adam? Re-unite? For what purpose?
Every time I have one question answered it make my answer to another wrong, but I must be doing well since I only have 2 things I don't understand now <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif' /><!--endemo-->
Rei was a empty husk. Even the "real" Rei was JUST A EMPTY HUSK(hence why she will always do what told to). Being she was made the same ways the Evas were(cloning), she was a empty one.
And Nil found one of the keys- they didn't want Gendo with that power. They ended up getting it themselves, except 1 thing screwed up- Shinji decided to be the piece of the species that got to stay back.
See, Rei triggered 3rd Impact, which made Shinji a God, because she wished for him to be the one(and SEELE knew she would). Kaoru couldn't do it because he was a Angel- Rei was just getting herself a Soul(and thus, Rei became Lillith).
Kaoru wanted to return Adam to his regular state of Godliness, and cause 3rd Impact(which Kaoru would control, being Adam too is just a empty husk. Lillith is the mother of everything, which is kind of odd in her order- she was the second human, but she bore Adam. Thus, she was the 1st and second, because really all she did was slice herself in 2, making man and woman(in which then Adam bore the angels, and Lillith bore the human Race[with the human adam and eve]).
On reflection I should have said Kaworu wished to return to Adam, as opposed to saying he intended to unite with Lilith, d'oh! He chats to SEELE, he's told he was salvaged from Adam, his goal seems to be getting into contact with Adam and proceeding from there.
But then noone can really say whose goals he was following.
SEELE didn't want the pilots, certainly didn't *need* Kaworu, just the EVA series. And the only real concern NERV had at the time was for Unit O1 going a bit funny in the presence of an Angel (Kaworu).
It would seem that there were several versions of 3rd Impact. One would be an Angel meeting Adam and wiping out everything - the Angel's thesis, if you will, haha. Resurrecting Adam and allowing him free reign to splatter everything. Another would be the fusion of EVA 01 with the EVA production series under the influence of Kaworu dummy plugs - creating the single mind entity which SEELE craved. Yet another would be the creation of some God-deity by the fusion of Adam and Lilith to create something with the life of an Angel and the knowledge of Man. Gendo's objective - or at least the only thing which makes sense. Its also the only thing running counter to SEELE's objective.
Then you've got what actually happened - an apparent melding of possibilities. The fusion which created the God-Rei who "served" Shinji. Part of Gendo's plan and part of SEELE's plan - evidently SEELE had planned the crucifixion of EVA 01 since they go along with events as they follow - though no doubt unaware of the fusion of Adam and Lilith until the last moment.
1. What actually causes the third impact? I've heard
A: two angels
B: an angel and Adam
C: an Angel and Lillith
D: Lillith and Adam.
Which is right?
2. What was Kawuro's objective? If he wanted to start the 3rd impact, B: must have been true, but that would not explain how Rei started the third impact with Lillith, I can only conclude Kawuro did not want to start the third impact. So what WAS he trying to do?
Adam was the little egg thing, right? Adam didn't seem to factor into the 3rd impact at any point, which suggests A: or C: would HAVE to be true. Lillith clearly factors into the impact, which suggests C, an Angel and Lillith are required to start the third impact. This makes sense as Rei clearly merges with Lillith.
The other point I was unclear on was the difference between instrumentality, and the third impact. As I now understand it, the third impact is the trigger, which could end in humanity's destruction or salvation, wheras instrumentality is the end result; salvation in the form of the giant coolade puddle.
Sudden realisation: I think I get why Seele didn't want Gendo to start instrumentality himself, and why Gendo DID.
The one who starts instrumentality gets to decide the fate of the human race; an angel would certainly choose humankind's destruction. Gendo would have chosen salvation, but Seele didn't want to take that chance. In the end we see both Shinji and Asuka are un-melded, no doubt by Shinji's will. Gendo could have used that power to bring back Yui, who he was willing to do anything to get back.
The other question now raised (on a whole new level I never considered before) is this: if we assume the 3rd impact requires Lillith and an angel, and Rei was the angel in the impact, why wasn't it Rei who ultimately made the choice of humanity's future? My guess; she was only part Angel. She wasn't capable of starting the third impact on her own, she was always just, as mentioned, a tool. She needed a human being to make the final descision, which was Shinji, although Gendo did not expect Rei to reject him.
That in turn raises ANOTHER question (I told you ever time I answer one I raise another); what was SEELE going to use as their angel if they killed Rei? My guess; Adam.
I think when we come down to it, there are many different interpretations of EoE, I just want to know the most likely one to be correct <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif' /><!--endemo-->
I'm still not seeing Inf yet, but then he did state that he didn't like Evangelion...
*edit* With new-impoved layout for easy-read action! *edit*
Nil, the third-impact can occur a number of ways. SEELE's version used Eva-01 and their MP evas which they lost a few during the fight hence why they say "we have less evas than expected blah blah." Plus the Lance.
Their recipe for destruction is: Eva-01 (clone of lilith), MP Evas, and the Lance and the replicas.
Gendo's involved the real Lilith, Adam and Rei. When Rei stole Gendo's arm she also took Adam with her (its fused to his hand remember?). Gendo's version of third impact did not involve reverting everyone to LCL. Pay attention to the beginning conversion between him and SEELE. It seems he only cared about reuniting with his wife.
The angel's also can cause third impact.
It's all a matter who wants control of it. In the end, Rei betrays Gendo and hands Shinji control over third impact.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->The other point I was unclear on was the difference between instrumentality, and the third impact. As I now understand it, the third impact is the trigger, which could end in humanity's destruction or salvation, wheras instrumentality is the end result; salvation in the form of the giant coolade puddle.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
There is no difference. The whole impact name is just a coverup. Impact refers to the supposed meteorite that struck the earth.
The Second Event would be Adam going ape in Antarctica.
Third Event would be some dramatic change related to the Angels.
Now, that event could have been Adam and Kaworu fusing. So why did SEELE send him? Consider that Kaworu believed Adam was in NERVs inner sanctum. SEELE know otherwise, but send in Kaworu because he'll very likely level the base to get to Adam - imagine if he'd got control of more EVA units. Kaworu would eventually find Lilith and reach a dead end in his search for Adam. Lets bear in mind that Unit 01 was for all intents and purposes an Angel but STILL got slapped about in the end by the Mass Production models. Thus SEELE can then sweep in, recover Unit 01 with their Mass Production EVA units, and go about the business of turning everyone to LCL.
Outcome - Man turns to LCL, individuality ceases to exist.
That event could also have been Adam fusing with any Angel - turning him back into his immediate pre-Second Impact form (logic - tiny Rei fuses with Lilith to become giant Rei-Lilith. Tiny Adam plus any Angel makes giant Angel-Adam). Mankind gets wiped out by a very annoyed Adam, Adam inherits the Earth.
Outcome - Game over man, game over!
Another event could be Gendo making himself Adam, fusing with Rei-Lilith to create some godlike entity and/or freeing Yui from (presumably) Unit 01. He sees HIP/HCP as death, so its unlikely he initiates SEELE's procedure.
Outcome - Gendo rules the WOORRRRRRRRLLLLD!!! Or retires to the country with Yui. Maybe he sends the remaning EVA to rip SEELE to small pieces so that he can enjoy life with Yui. Choose your own ending.
While all three events have wildly different outcomes all three were potential Third Events. The fact that Gendo and SEELE show no surprise at events indicates that at least SOME of what happened correlated to the predicted HIP/HCP. SEELE assumed they had initiated their plan successfully, Gendo realised his hadn't worked when Rei amputated his hand (and since no genuine Angel got its hands on Adam we can safely ignore the Angel outcome of the Third Event).
<!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
Watch "Wings of Honneamise", an old school anime feature film from Gainax and Bandai I think. It's rather "normal" sci-fi (first steps into space by humans, although in an "alternative" world/universe). Gorgeous visuals and music.
-K
Of course everyone got turned into LCL, but there was that business about everyone's souls flying away into space; does that mean he chose to end humanity?
ANYONE CAN. HUMAN BEINGS CAN. All they need is to figure out HOW to extricate their soul, OR know how to change their own DNA code so it'll clone someone else's. Then combine that with omnipotence, and tadah.
Also, to Shinji and what he chose:
He chose to just cancel Third Impact, and let there be one of human being. And he chose Asuka(being he found out what Rei really was, and he knew Misato was in love with Kaji, and that the both of them were all alone).
I've only seen each episode and the movie once, so i'm probably not in the best position to try and argue my perception as correct. The only query I now have is that if Kawuro was looking for Adam but found Lillith, why couldn't he have used Lillith to start the 3rd impact?
As you said yourself Quaunaut, there are a number of combinations that would work (which appears to be truth by convenience- it's the easiest solution so let's hope it's true), so why couldn't Kawuro and Lillith have caused the 3rd impact?
I also apparently missed that Adam was fused to Gendo's hand. As I said, i've only seen it through once.