<!--QuoteBegin-MMZ>Torak+Feb 13 2004, 09:40 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (MMZ>Torak @ Feb 13 2004, 09:40 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Where I play,going Sens first will still get you your pooper handed to you. The Marine upgrade path has changed to AR1, AR2, WP1, WP2, WP3, AR3, which basically means that focus is useless by the time mid game rolls around. Typically, commanders drop an IP, Armory, Arms Lab, drop some mines around base and go for RTs. While DC's still hold the first position for the most part, MC's are making a strong push for first chambers as well. The only time SC is first is when it is a known fact that the commander is average. Any good Com can very easily counter Sens, be it the aforementioned upgrade path or plenty of observatories. Additionally, once it is known that the aliens have Sens first, Elect RT's and a two hive lockdown spells doom for the aliens. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> Can I have the server IP where you play?
focus isn't useless at end game gd i can take down two heavies with it (just hit run around hit..aka fight randomly) i want MC first anyway but noooooooo DC always first otherwise i get cussed out <!--emo&::nerdy::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/nerd.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='nerd.gif' /><!--endemo-->
By putting down DC first, the aliens ensure that they have access to the chamber. Sure, it may not be as fun as the others, but the stark fact is that <i>you need it to win</i>. If your SCs fail you, skulks can't "play as you're 'supposed' to" - they <i>have </i>to fight the marines back. Ambushes are a great defensive tactic, but they're not something you can rely on.
MC's almost equal to DC, imo - it's just that a) the chamber powers (teleportation and energy boost) are geared for second hive and b) there's a pressing need to secure the second hive quickly, to acquire the DCs as well. DCs give all the aliens a better chance at forcing marines back, whereas MC benefits the dispensible ones more (i.e. celerity skulks, who won't be coming back from an assault on a TF + turrets anyway).
<!--QuoteBegin-MrMojo+Feb 13 2004, 11:27 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (MrMojo @ Feb 13 2004, 11:27 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Still, a celerity lerk rush might fail easily, and then you're screwed.
Besides, a celerity lerk vs 2, 3 marines is a dead celerity lerk. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> Lerk is best used as a fly-in-bite-dozer, so MC isn't that necessary even though incredibly helpful <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif' /><!--endemo--> Skulk, on the other hand, NEEDS carapace to survive even a few seconds.
Another benefit of movement first is that if your 2nd hive is under attack (while it is building, before it is up) you can quickly travel there to defend it.
I would think that any lerk against 2 or 3 marines would be a dead lerk. Part of spending res on a higher lifeform is knowing when your investment is at risk, when to run away, if you will. Or the celerity lerk would just spore them and fall back until it finds some backup, like another skulk or 2. No need for the marines to have a monopoly on teamwork, is there?
To break the D chamber first cycle you need to pull carapace OFF the D chamber. The problem is that aliens are so weak that carapace is needed for most just to stay competitive, and that's why it isn't an option in the early game.
I would like to see carapace become automatic. Aliens would get 1 level of carapace for each active hive they have. Alien armor levels would have to be adjusted up a bit to make up for the lack of carapace inthe early game.
With carapace off the D chamber another skill could be put on there that is handy for LATE game encounters, but not really handy for the early game.
When this is done you will see D chamber use drop off and the camber order will become much more random depending on mood and circumstance.
Because in the early part of the game it's sad to loose a bloody earned fade... in CW it's different... but on the pubs Regen it's the upgrade you choose for everything different from a skulk...
The <span style='color:orange'>only</span> way to breake DMS is to unchain the upgrade chambers from the hives like it was done with the evolutions. Just allow all kinds of chambers at any stage of the game to be build, but keep the limit of upgrades a player can take related to the number of hives, like it is right now. Means, all chambers can be dropped and players can benefit from their area effects, but might only choose so many uprades as they have active hives. This way, people can choose their personally preferred upgades to play their personal style. No one would be **** because someone drops sc firsts, because all other upgrades are still posssible to be built.
Sideeffect would be that the games would become much less predictable.
I usually like DC first. I know it is stale and the other chambers can be more fun.
I love the combo of silence and cloaking but if you are caught in the situation of only 1 hive and the marines go slash and burn/electrification you need a regen fade on your team to take out their res nodes quickly.
Sure a few gorges might be able to heal that fade while you whittle away at their res nodes, but try getting that kind of help on most pubs.
I agree with Legat, unchaining the chambers might be a good thing to consider in future patches. This would also put more focus back on Hive control like in 1.04.
Ahh unlocking chambers from hives, what a beautiful concept. I remember discussions of this, and of allowing multiple upgrades per chamber, and allowing more than just 3 upgrades, depending on lifeform. (less for skulk, up to many for onos) Was a huge thread in I&S a while back.
It just seems unlikely to ever happen. Aliens get downgrades every version. Marines get upgrades. No doubt the eventual 'balancing' of the DMS order will be something like making regen heal extra slow, or redempt only work once out of twenty deaths, or carapace practically worthless... er... somewhat the way it is now actually. <!--emo&:(--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/sad.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='sad.gif' /><!--endemo-->
<!--QuoteBegin-BobTheJanitor+Feb 13 2004, 05:59 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (BobTheJanitor @ Feb 13 2004, 05:59 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Ahh unlocking chambers from hives, what a beautiful concept. I remember discussions of this, and of allowing multiple upgrades per chamber, and allowing more than just 3 upgrades, depending on lifeform. (less for skulk, up to many for onos) Was a huge thread in I&S a while back.
It just seems unlikely to ever happen. Aliens get downgrades every version. Marines get upgrades. No doubt the eventual 'balancing' of the DMS order will be something like making regen heal extra slow, or redempt only work once out of twenty deaths, or carapace practically worthless... er... somewhat the way it is now actually. <!--emo&:(--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/sad.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='sad.gif' /><!--endemo--> <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> I hear ya bob... <!--emo&:(--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/sad.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='sad.gif' /><!--endemo-->
Comments
Can I have the server IP where you play?
MC's almost equal to DC, imo - it's just that a) the chamber powers (teleportation and energy boost) are geared for second hive and b) there's a pressing need to secure the second hive quickly, to acquire the DCs as well. DCs give all the aliens a better chance at forcing marines back, whereas MC benefits the dispensible ones more (i.e. celerity skulks, who won't be coming back from an assault on a TF + turrets anyway).
Besides, a celerity lerk vs 2, 3 marines is a dead celerity lerk. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
Lerk is best used as a fly-in-bite-dozer, so MC isn't that necessary even though incredibly helpful <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif' /><!--endemo--> Skulk, on the other hand, NEEDS carapace to survive even a few seconds.
I would think that any lerk against 2 or 3 marines would be a dead lerk. Part of spending res on a higher lifeform is knowing when your investment is at risk, when to run away, if you will.
Or the celerity lerk would just spore them and fall back until it finds some backup, like another skulk or 2. No need for the marines to have a monopoly on teamwork, is there?
I would like to see carapace become automatic. Aliens would get 1 level of carapace for each active hive they have. Alien armor levels would have to be adjusted up a bit to make up for the lack of carapace inthe early game.
With carapace off the D chamber another skill could be put on there that is handy for LATE game encounters, but not really handy for the early game.
When this is done you will see D chamber use drop off and the camber order will become much more random depending on mood and circumstance.
Regards,
Savant
Just allow all kinds of chambers at any stage of the game to be build, but keep the
limit of upgrades a player can take related to the number of hives, like it is right now.
Means, all chambers can be dropped and players can benefit from their area effects, but might only choose so many uprades as they have active hives.
This way, people can choose their personally preferred upgades to play their personal style.
No one would be **** because someone drops sc firsts, because all other upgrades are still posssible to be built.
Sideeffect would be that the games would become much less predictable.
I love the combo of silence and cloaking but if you are caught in the situation of only 1 hive and the marines go slash and burn/electrification you need a regen fade on your team to take out their res nodes quickly.
Sure a few gorges might be able to heal that fade while you whittle away at their res nodes, but try getting that kind of help on most pubs.
I agree with Legat, unchaining the chambers might be a good thing to consider in future patches. This would also put more focus back on Hive control like in 1.04.
It just seems unlikely to ever happen. Aliens get downgrades every version. Marines get upgrades. No doubt the eventual 'balancing' of the DMS order will be something like making regen heal extra slow, or redempt only work once out of twenty deaths, or carapace practically worthless... er... somewhat the way it is now actually. <!--emo&:(--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/sad.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='sad.gif' /><!--endemo-->
It just seems unlikely to ever happen. Aliens get downgrades every version. Marines get upgrades. No doubt the eventual 'balancing' of the DMS order will be something like making regen heal extra slow, or redempt only work once out of twenty deaths, or carapace practically worthless... er... somewhat the way it is now actually. <!--emo&:(--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/sad.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='sad.gif' /><!--endemo--> <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
I hear ya bob... <!--emo&:(--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/sad.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='sad.gif' /><!--endemo-->