Would You Want To Be Invaded?
MonsieurEvil
Join Date: 2002-01-22 Member: 4Members, Retired Developer, NS1 Playtester, Contributor
Join Date: 2002-01-22 Member: 4Members, Retired Developer, NS1 Playtester, Contributor
in Discussions
<div class="IPBDescription">Putting yourself in someone else's shoes</div> A simple question:
If you were living in a dictatorship such as Iraq, and you were an average citizen, would you welcome an invasion that removed Saddam or not? In either case, try to explain why. This is not an invitation for you to make analogies or 'yes buts', just give an honest answer about yourself. Would you rather live in a dictatorship, or have your country invaded with a promise of democracy? Assume the same amount of damage and casualties occurs as did earlier this year (aka don't use the USSR as your invading army).
I'm less concerned about your logic than seeing if people can actually consider two sides of a debate; call it an experiment in the overall worth of this forum...
If you were living in a dictatorship such as Iraq, and you were an average citizen, would you welcome an invasion that removed Saddam or not? In either case, try to explain why. This is not an invitation for you to make analogies or 'yes buts', just give an honest answer about yourself. Would you rather live in a dictatorship, or have your country invaded with a promise of democracy? Assume the same amount of damage and casualties occurs as did earlier this year (aka don't use the USSR as your invading army).
I'm less concerned about your logic than seeing if people can actually consider two sides of a debate; call it an experiment in the overall worth of this forum...
Comments
I'll expand on my view later, because I'm on the phone and I've gotta go.
Afterwards though, I would expect the foreign power to leave as soon as my newly freed country was up on its own two feet.
I certainly have not, thus I don't feel I have the knowledge to answer the question Monse has posed. Sorry <!--emo&:(--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/sad.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='sad.gif' /><!--endemo-->
[edit]Unfortunately, I'm aware that the following answer is generalized towards any goverment rather than Iraq, but that's because I'm making no assumption about my quality of life pre-invasion.[/edit]
1. Is at least one of my two rights as a human secure under the current government? I place equal priority on "life" (healthy preferred) and "freedom." Oppression towards one of these two rights can be forgiven if securing the other is helped in the process. Even in the US we live in a tradeoff between civil rights vs. security; the big debate is over whether the costs (less liberties) such as those made post 9-11 are worth the return (more safety).
Let's take the opposite possible route, a dictator who guarantees everyone to do whatever they please but makes no guarantees about their lives. Here it's important to remember that "life" and "health" includes the security of knowing that the things most necessary to maintain your lifestyle stay that way. Examples:
family members (elsewhere, kidnapping occurrs on a <i>very</i> regular basis compared to the US)
housing of any type (place to sleep and dispose of waste included)
predictable flow of food (even if small amounts -- it doesn't count as starvation until you don't know when your next meal will be, if at all)
Under this type of dictator, it falls upon the people themselves to uphold honor, keep from stealing from each other, etc. It's a system that fails as often as it does simply because after jumping the hurdle of establishing honor among a culture, you then have the issue of those outside it who wish to pillage or wage war.
2. Do I have a vested interest in maintaining the current government? Alexander Hamilton considered debts owed by the government to be a <i>good</i> thing; his theory: people won't try to kill, overthrow, or otherwise get rid of someone who owes them money and can't hand it over when gone. If my family's well off under a dictator, I'm unlikely to support an invasion. The opposite holds true if I'm dirt poor and the risk of injury or death is worth the return.
I was considering going on with a 3rd or perhaps even 4th point, but it's really not necessary. I think you can see by now that my answer to "would I support an invasion" is "what's my risk and return in regards to life and freedom?"
[edit2]
I just remembered an important additions that applies better to Iraq, or other countries in which the dictator is oppressing <i>both</i> rights.
If patriotism and a general consensus that the government = bad is widespread enough in my country, I imagine I'd rather see "my own people" taking care of our problem rather than having someone strap training wheels onto us, recklessly banging tools and creating dents in our Shiny Metaphorical Bicycle of Progress to do so. Even here it's a risk-return thing: is the added risk of going at it without outside assistance worth the greater morale of the country if/when an overthrow of the government is complete?
I have an NS buddy who is actually iraqi, and lived in iraq. He was furous when americans were mad at the president, because he said most iraqies despised saddam and thought bush was the best thing to happen and to free them, no matter the motives.
It depends on exactly what the dictator is doing to his/her people, and if his/her actions (the dictators) are the actions wanted by the people.
<span style='color:white'>Sorry, but you have gone off-topic here with the rest. This topic is not for you to hate or like the Iraqi invasion, it is to discuss your own feelings as a hypothetical citizen in a dictatorship. The nuking is punitive, please do not repeat this mistake, as we have handed out a few Discussion suspensions already this week.</span>
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sorry to say that, but if u r trying to be objective, please don't use the word "evil"
it's just childish, and seeing president Bush using it so often doesn't lessen the impression that it's often used by non-objective humans
there isn't something evil or good, just something which is positive in respect to a moral standard.. or isn't (so if u have the moral standard "most important thing is not interventing in the progress of other nations" .. well.. America is "evil" ?!)
But i am a 100% true blooded iraqi american, therefore what i have to say may quite relevant to the subject. ( and yes i do play and love NS very much =) )
Anyways.
I would say 100% of iraqi's outside of iraq have longed for the invasion to happen and have welcomed it since most people that are outside iraq are outside because of saddam.
I would say 90% of iraqis inside iraq have welcomed the invasion. What about the other 10%? I would say that consists of sunnis that dont want to loose sunni rule over iraq (saddam was sunni, and sunnis are the minority in iraq),
Keep in mind that sunnis hate saddam, they simply dont want to loose a sunni leader.
There are some who have been literally brainwashed to love saddam as if he was their own father, these are the FIDEAYEEN SADDAM, you may have heard of them. They will fight for saddam till the end, these people consist of both sunnis and sheits.
And the remaining of the 10% are people that were DIRECTLY DEPENDENT upon saddam, people that were given riches and/or had power because of saddam.
What's my reasoning behind this? Well, i would say the casualties over another years rule under saddam hussein from: malnutrition, lack of proper medicine, lack of healthcare, lack of essential living supplies, saddam's deathsquads and executions, oday and qusay's death sprees, deaths from jail murders...etc...etc.
These casualties, from a single year of saddam's rule would FAR EXCEED the number of iraqi AND american casualties seen throughout the invasion and peacekeeping process even till today.
What about me? As an iraqi american, i have strongly agreed with the invasion.
And trust me, if you've actually lived under saddam's rule for only 6 months....
you would too
I know alot of Americans and other ethnics trying to put themselves in thier shoes and are 100 percent wrong
Maybe Bush's motives for saving iraq werent sincere. But no matter what, it did save people, and save a country, and maybe some civilization in the middle east.
That's all very nice and all but... well it's not our job to save you guys. <span style='color:orange'>multiple paragraphs snipped out</span>
This topic has been all about understanding the other's point of view. So thus, I say to the people living in despotic regimes, for you to take a moment to understand things from our point of view.
<span style='color:orange'>Glad to see you at least got half the point of this thread, aknowledging points of view, but MonsE specified that it be from the point of view of the country being invaded, not doing the invading. This sort of post is better fit to other "invade iraq, yes/no, why" threads. Let's try to keep it on topic.</span>
Ontopic, cant really comment as I've never been under a dictator. From what I've heard of Saddam however - I'd want an invasion force.
So, even if the whole Iraqi war (or another) is worthwhile in the long run, the question is: how long will it be before it pays for itself?
I think that this is a bit of a cop-out, Ryo. You talk about military issues with me constantly even though have never spent a day in the service, and I value your opinions on those greatly. Just give your opinion here. And besides, you're more qualified than I am, as you live under the dictatorship of the Queen's Governor-general. <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif' /><!--endemo--> J/K. Sorta.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Great minds discuss ideas, average minds discuss events, small minds discuss people.
-- Laurence Peter<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
PS: Marik, you are the man. Thanks for keeping this topic on track.
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I know this may seem irrational to a lot of you, I know in a lot of ways it even seems irrational to me. Its just, when I really imagine myself in that spot, I'd be upset. Not because of the loss of the dictator or the tyrannical government, as I'd welcome their departure, but because my country was not the ones removing the government. It would be my country's problem, and my country should have been the one dealing with it. Irrational, yes, but that's probably how I'd see it.
Of course, my Americanism blinds me from the position of an Iraqi in this question. I'm not the one having bombings go off around me or seeing another country rule over me. I see America as 'The Better Guy' in most situations. We may not be good, but we're better then the alternative.
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He see's through me at every turn! And I would have gotten away with it too if it wasn't for that meddelling adult! <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin.gif' /><!--endemo-->
Ok, I'll give my opinions.
Marik raised some excellent points that concur with my views on the subject. Not all dictators are cruel, ruthless people. Iraq under Saddam for example prior to the Gulf War enjoyed excellent health care and education. Even when a dictator is oppressing his populace, a certain percentage must be getting benefits. Every dictator needs a support base, and that almost always comes from within the country he is ruling (a possible exception might have been Cossack supporters of the Tzar). Thus he has to keep certain people happy to ensure that things run (relatively) smoothly. If I was one such person, having Saddam gone would not be in my interests. Similarly, it was not in the best interests of many American investors and buisinessmen to see Batista gone from Cuba, as he gave them free reign over many industries.
Going onto the question of "Would you support an invasion to bring in democracy?", the question of what I know about democracy comes up. If I live in China for example, democracy is a dangerous and turbulant force. It was tried before and lead to disaster, with corrupt officials and the country disintergrating into rival war-lordships. Under the current government, things seem quite stable. Culturally I have been conditioned to believe despotism is better (and to be fair, it's worked in China for 2,000+ years), thus I am unlikely to support it.
But I might have been overseas and seen democracy first hand, in which case I might wish to support it. It's no surprise that the people in China who support democracy the most are those who have had contact with the West. Personal experiance plays a key role here; a student studying in Los Angeles years back during the LA riots would come away with a poor impression of democracy. Seeing the rampant advertising and relative chaos of campaign times also might turn me away from democracy, wishing as I do for stability and order.
What if I live in the Middle East? The more secular my religious upbringing, the most hostile I am likely to be towards Western values, and democracy is generally viewed as being packaged with such values. I find the half-naked American women who flaunt their bodies to be corrupt and decedant, the flashy capitalist world of McDonalds and Coca-Cola is an affrount to my cultural values and American soldiers dare to walk upon the holy lands of Arabia, birthplace of the Prophet.
My views are also going to be influenced by my government, who naturally want's little to do with democracy as that would mean eroding their absolute power. I probably don't know this however as my education was intentionally stunted and controlled, so I'm more inclined to believe what they tell me.
So I don't know much about democracy, and what I do know doesn't sound too good. But if my government is constantly oppressing me, and I'm not sure where my next meal will come from, I'm much more open to radical ideas. Examine if you will Germany in the 1930's. 6 million unemployed, the economy in ruins and inflation rampant. Adolf Hitler and the Nazi party promise radical solutions and are elected to power. Radicalism finds tough times to be fertile soils, and western democracy is a pretty radical idea to an Iraqi or Iranian. Thus after 12 years of sanctions and oppression, with the country in ruins, I'm far more open to radical ideas.
The government though might be supporting my particular group. Saddam was a Sunni and under his regime the Sunni population, a small minority of the Islamic faith, did quite well. They were able to break free from much of the persecution that they have suffered under Shi'ite regimes. Much in the same way if I'm a Democract in America and a Democrat president and Congress is in power, I'm even more supportive of the government (it's important to note however that the overwhelming nationalism and love of democracy in America overrides much of the distaste a Democrat might feel for a Republican government, and vice versa. An American will still support the government even if a candidate from a rival party is in power). If the government is comprised of or particuarly friendly to my particular group, I'm more inclined to support them. This can though run both ways; if I'm a Kurd in iraq I'm unlikely to support Saddam as he persecutes my group.
Yet we come back to the problem that's been with us since it's birth in the 1700's: nationalism. This is my country after all, and be I living in Asia, Africa, the Middle East or South America I'm not too delighted about the prospect of foreign soldiers marching over my lands. Soldiers tend to be brutish and crude, raping and pillaging, a lesson certainly ingrained in many nations. Who's to say once they conquor my country that they won't stay and do as they please? These armies will be comprised of men who I've never met before, who speak a differant language, don't follow my religion and were brought up in a differant culture. The dictator currently in power might not be the ideal, but he is one of us. My nationalistic feelings are telling me not to support this invasion.
But if we turn to the previous point, we can see that it applies here as well. If times are tough then perhaps an invasion isn't such a bad idea. Things have to be pretty bad though before I'll be willing to see foreign boots marching across the soil of my homeland. An example from history may very well be the Nazi invasion of Russia in 1941. Ukranians, Belorussians and indeed much of western Russia initially welcomed the Nazis as liberators. Life had been so harsh under Stalin that anything looked better, even the traditional "bad-guys", the Germans. The Nazis though proved to be even worse, and people flocked back to Stalin. For the average Iraqi, things were pretty bad in his country in 2003. Bad enough, most likely, that he would be willing to see foreign troops invade. The key thing to remember here is a mentality of "Well, it can't get any worse". People do need to be pushed a fair way to repress nationalist thoughts.
So thus we come to the end of our tangled little web. The question has still not really been answered, but I have attempted to explain why answering it is a very difficult exercise. Within every culture and nation across the globe there will be a myriad of differant peoples, with differing cultural, social, political and economic values, all of which play a large part in determining the answer to the question "Would you want to be invaded?". We are asking however in the context of Saddam's Iraq in the year 2003, and thus I can give an answer of sorts.
Under Saddam, my country has gone to ruin. There is little infrastructure, my money is worth almost nothing, my family is hungry and work is hard to find. Saddam has done little to nothing to help me and indeed his actions seem to have inflamed the problems. Though I love my country, I've been hearing gossip from people about the Americans coming to remove Saddam. I've read one of their leaflets, smuggled to me from a friend who lives near the border. Much of it sounds like empty promises, but right now I'm willing to grasp at any straw. Saddam can't help me, so maybe these Americans will. I shall not oppose their invasion of my country.
What can I say: comes from having to write 2,500 word essays which could be answered in 500 words <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif' /><!--endemo-->
[It's so hard to type out a legitmate statement that doesn't seem to go off-topic <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif' /><!--endemo--> ]
It's just incredibly hard for someone in the US to imagine living under a despotic government (it's hard to imagine a modern day revolution too). If I were brain-washed into thinking the US is evil, if I believed my leader was a saint (which I wouldn't really be able to believe, since it kind of goes against part of my religious beliefs...but theoretically), if I had to scrounge for every meal and I was taught that it's the people about to invade us that's the reason for this...well, then obviously I'd be against an invasion. Although this is what some of CNN or Fox News would like us to believe, I just can't think that all the people would be prefectly brainwahed.
I think it's just that people fear to plan an uprising because they could reported by one of their conspirators.
Also, if we're talking about hte present day Irag/US thing, I'd be wary that the US might pull out, even though it could easily 'free' the people (although, I think we're passed that point now).
Basically:
If I were the current me:
If my ruler is despotic and mean, and I think the way I do right now, I wouldn't mind an invasion (common Iraqi).
If my ruler is despotic and just witholds liberties, and I think the way I do now, I'd probably want a revolution, but as long as the news isn't overly censored, it'd be okay (people being treated good in Iraq).
If I were a citizen there my whole life:
If my ruler is despotic terribly mean (no food, soldiers on every street corner), I'd probably want to be freed.
If my ruler is despotic and mean, I'd probably want a revolution, but wouldn't want to invoke their wraith upon me or my family.
If my ruler is despotic and just witholds liberties, I'd probably be fine with it.
All though we like to think we can be empathtic, it's really hard to imagine how you would actually think under the alternate rule....so, yea, this post is fairly pointless now that I think about it...just mark me under Arcadius.
Why do i do this? i dont know, dont ask me, i should stop.
I guess i like to argue, but this one is getting old.
and please do not take offence at what i am about to say, i am not saying it to flame or diss anyone, i am saying i because it is simply the truth:
From what i have read, most arguements given here are foiled due to the lack of knowlege and ignorance that americans have towards iraq.
First of all, it was not possible to overthrow saddam, not at all possible. It was attempted over 50+ times, i don know the exact number of times people have tried assasinating or otherwise overthrowing saddam, but i'd guess damn many...
At one point, (at the end of the 1st gulf war) saddam lost controll of 95% of iraq and was hiding in a hole, and he came back even against that and retook the country.
How can you overthrow someone that retakes a country?
You people can say what you want, truth is you have no idea how it was like over there, therefore you can not make rightfull assumptions.
Let me give you a taste of how its like over there, lets say you mention that you simply do not like saddam to a friend.... there are many possibilities, each one 100% valid.
1- Your friend could be part of the Baath party, tells on you.... you die.
2- Your freind could tell a freind of his, who is bathist, tells on you... you die.
3- Your freind tells a relative (mother, father, brother) tells on you.... you die.
4- You are overheard by anyone.... you die.
5- There are bugs in your house (saddam did this to many people).... you die.
Over there, you have NO IDEA who is a spy working for saddam, people were paid good money to tell on people, sometimes people would claim false accusations just to get you dragged away and torured or murdered.
Oh and by the way, when saddam kills you.... he dosent just kill YOU. He kills YOU, your mother, your father, your sons, your brothers, and your entire direct family. He will even sometimes kill freinds and entire neighborhoods just to instill fear in the hearts of people.
So if you say something against saddam, your entire family disowns you, for their own good, so that they dont get tortured to death.
and HOW DARE THEY show up to your funeral, if they do, shot on the spot.
So i heard people say, rebell? Oh you want people to rebell? Apparently you havent heard of stories of watching your own mother/sister raped and tortured then killed infront of you while you were getting your genitles electricuted and mutilated...
I also read somewhere where someone was asking me to show my opinions in regardes to the country as a whole...
THIS is what THE COUNTRY has been through, close to 30 years of this hell. What do you want me to say when i say country? Saddam's government? NO they dont want an invasion....
But if you want me to talk about the people, YES, we are OVERJOYED that the US liberated us from this hell on earth.
And just for an added morsel of info... Iraqi's have since gotten Sattelite TV (before you would be punished by death if cought with a sattelite).
And iraqi's hate it, because all they see are the other arabic channels broadcasting anti-american sentiments....
And let me say, most other mid-eastern countries are like iraq was with saddam, just not to that degree, and there are two reasons the arab countries are flaming americans:
1- America's involvement with Israel
2- They are scared that their people will be liberated and will enjoy freedom.
And if you ask any afghani, he will tell you he/she was glad the US came in and liberated them from the opressing taliban.
Note that I'm not commenting on America's handling of Iraq, I'm just saying that my short term response might be different to the long term one.
That is true.
You would have a lack of electricity, fresh water, and maybe food.
But there are sacrifices with everything involved.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Has this topic died the death of 'I cannot tell the truth because it would contradict my liberalism' which seems to send so many able postings to an early grave?
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Lol. Sad but true.