Ok, you people don't understand NS. NS isn't a FPS/RTS, it's a FPS, specifically a team deathmatch game.
If you win, that's because you have better fps skill/teamwork than the other team. If you lose, that's because you have weaker fps skill/teamwork than the other team.
That being said, NS is a pretty good team deathmatch game with alot (and I say ALOT) of elements that help separate the skilless rambos from the skilled team-players.
But if you expect strategical choices to determine the outcome of the game, prepare yourself for a big deception. The game has been designed (and I'm talking about the patches here) so that 'skill' and ONLY 'skill' determine the outcome of the game. 'Skill' being the combination of FPS skill, teamplay, knowing the map & the details (abundant in the case of NS) of the game.
You're write about one thing. Players can throw off the balance like nobody's business. But that's the price you pay for going one up... Yet also an advantage. Unpredictable encounters, random chance, unequal skill, these elements will, of course, create situations in which even super skilled commanders will lose, or idiot aliens will win. On the other hand, it's what <i>makes</i> NS such a great game from the comm's POV. Thinking on your feet, adapting, and sometimes dealing with the fact that you have inferior resources/power/skilled players to win, and playing accordingly...
I play RTSes. I play FPSes. Heck, I was in a clan #7 on the CAL DoD ladder (a long long long time ago). At the heart of it all it the same tenet, that of challenging people in ways they otherwise could not... It's why people play CS, but not tic-tac-toe.
And, while some people will not want to play a game that requires the level of teamwork, level of time, etc, that NS requires, so what? NS is not supposed to appeal to everyone. Heck, there are people who won't play anything besides deathmatch! We know NS is getting things right/wrong by whether it's got the players that <i>would</i> be interested in a brilliant RTS/FPS hybrid, not by whether it can beat a generic appeal game like Counterstrike.
Flayra and the devs aren't trying to win an election, they're trying to make a great game. And just like great books, or great music, that's often utterly contrary to being top dog in numbers.
<!--QuoteBegin-Nemesis Zero+Jan 29 2004, 06:38 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Nemesis Zero @ Jan 29 2004, 06:38 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Actually, I'd have to say that he has a point - problem is that FPS players are <i>used</i> to making a difference on their own. Enforcing game structures that rely solely on teamwork will thus alienate many. If, the transition has to happen smoothly, progressively over several versions. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Then you just alienate new players who join after the transition is made. I think there are a couple reasons this is a problem in almost all pubs:
1.) Learning curve: Commanding properly is extremely hard, and playing well as an Alien team requires a good amount of knowledge because there's nobody to tell you what to do. Most players who really know how to play well don't play on random pubs with no admin presence.
2.) Communication. Pubbers don't talk to each other. They're not used to having to talk to anyone else about game-related things. Commanders without a mic are almost always a disaster. I don't know what we can do about it, but it relates to the next one:
3.) Discipline. Commanders can't do anything to make their team cooperate. Certainly kicking them shouldn't be possible, but IMHO anything below admin powers should be free game for comms. If your comm is crappy and abusive you lost anyway, and you can still eject him. Commanders should be able to prevent individual marines from picking up equipment/meds/ammo, put them back at L0 upgrades, maybe even slay them. Sure it might get abused occasionally, but they can't do anything to stop eject votes and punishments could be removed once the comm is booted, and if your comm is so juvenile that he'd abuse them the marines would probably lose anyway.
Aliens also suffer from this, but even moreso because they have no power over their teammates whatsoever. Marines simply need to listen to one person, even newbies can do it. Aliens on the other hand have to be functional completely independent of one another, which means they ALL need a certain amount of knowledge about how to play the game to do really well. Asking an uncooperative teammate to do something on aliens rarely goes over well unless you have admin to back it up. This wasn't much of a problem at all in 1.04(except double gorging, which could have been fixed), but now with the multiple gorge system it's just much more difficult to organize.
I believe the original argument was that human players varies in skill. So when you take a suppositly strategical game and put in human players that has most of the control, the game is "skewed" because of the uneven amount of skill.
So basically you are saying that it is pretty much impossible to make a strategic move when it depend too much on human players. Therefore the game is not a fps/rts hybrid but back to the fps teamplay position.
Sadly, I agree with this reasoning. One does not put a monkey's mask on and say he is intrinsically a monkey-man. He is still a man under that mask (by mask I meant the commanding interface in the fasion of c&c warcraft etc). The same is somewhat true in ns, savage or any other game I've seen so far.
There still are a lot of elements that needs to be done/invented, but we shouldn't say it just doesn't work and give up nor should we say that this game is perfect and go hide in a cave. Ns/savage is a pretty big step in the process. Like "donkey kong" which leads to the mario empire, like "nethack" which probably began the whole d&d<->rpg genre, games like these are the pavement to other great games. We should be proud to be a part of it.
(edit) After thinking about it a bit, the concept of strategy doesn't necessary have to stop here and now, only in the commander's hand. Fps has its own strategy as most of you people know. It might be a little different than the strategy in a rts, but everything evolves. Every game requires some sort of strategy, even pong.
Skill and strategy are two different things but there is this gray area where strategy determines your skill level. To fake a leaping skulk in pretending you were going into one way, but you're going another, that takes more strategy than skill. Sure, to do the perfect feign you need to practice more to improve your 'skill', but the concept of faking out the skulk is pure strategy.(/edit)
I think the blend of RTS and FPS works just fine. Although I myself have never been a commander in a public game, I know how hard it must be on the commanders in some of these servers. I generally have 4-5 servers I play at, but I rarely see more than one or two familliar tags. Its all about getting the right balence of skill and teamwork for it to seem like a RTS. You can't win without either, although teamwork seems to have the deciding factor. You don't need to have a team of 1337 onos knifers in order to win it, you need a competant commander, and a team willing to cooperate.
And on the other side of the fence, the aliens don't all need to be super skilled either, group ambushes, and communication will win the day.
And on the other side of the fence, the aliens don't all need to be super skilled either, group ambushes, and communication will win the day. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> That is true, but when you pit that team of aliens against leet marines who don't communicate that well, you will not get a easy win. A elite lone marine without any teamwork can do some heavy damage to the kharaa. Same is true with a lone ono/skulk/whatever. That is what we're talking about when a single fps player having too much power. Its no longer about strategical moves/locations/upgrades/counters when players can exceed the created limits. Such as a skilled skulk devouring HA, or a single vanilla marine keeps an ono at bay when realisitic speaking the marine should have died.
Oh...and by saying you have no commanded yet doesn't give you any creditbility doesnt it? <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif' /><!--endemo--> GO commAND now!! Go make a fake name and hop in if you're that self conscioused ;P
IMHO - NS is a FPS with RTS elements - qualifying it as a FPS/RTS hybrid.
Considering that the commander is the one that places building and researches upgrades etc etc gives him/her a lot of strategic control - sure a leet marine can do well in the early stages of the game by him/herself but when the aliens go higher lifeforms and upgrade themselves even that leet marine will be begging for some upgrade/equipment.
The alien team are not so dependant on a single individual for the strategic placements but none the less require some use of the RTS elements of NS to win, otherwise there will be a lack of res which equate to little to no upgrades/higher lifeforms.
So no its not a FULL RTS, but its not an FPS only - if you do not use the RTS components you will most likely not get anywhere.
I honestly cant tell you how many I've seen the marines lose just because people wouldn't walk out of the base and to the nearest res node. The marine game in CNS is all about getting and holding locations, weather that is done by a team that sticks together and listens to what the comander says, or one guy who just happens to be able to swiss cheese skulks like no tomorow. If the marines can get away from thier base without losing it, they will nearly always win.
<!--QuoteBegin-Grendel+Jan 29 2004, 09:44 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Grendel @ Jan 29 2004, 09:44 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Better players on one side bias the outcome of the game in that teams favour? <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> That's not what is being said. The point being made, I think, is that a team with one really good player and several players that barely know what they are doing have a decent chance against a team of all decent players, because that one player can tip the balance so much.
<!--QuoteBegin-Zek+Jan 30 2004, 06:26 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Zek @ Jan 30 2004, 06:26 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> 3.) Discipline. Commanders can't do anything to make their team cooperate... <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> Just drop 4 cat packs on the rambos and watch how long they can "pwn" with 1 HP.
It isn't really subjective whether the RTS-FPS works. It does. NS is evidence of that. You can't measure it by the number of players, and it's very silly to do so - the quality of a game is just one of many, many factors influencing how many people play it. Just look at Counterstrike.
But to get back to the point, the marine mode does work, and it works extremely well. Players have reason to defend their base, because the buildings directly affect their game. Players have reason to follow the commander's orders, because otherwise he won't equip them. The commander's centralised direction of the team makes an <i>enormous</i> difference, and it's most noticable when commanders deviate from the norm.
So, the playerbase of a game is no reflection of its quality (and even so, that argument fails in this case. NS is the most popular independent HL mod.) In addition, whether or not you yourself enjoy a game is no indication of whether or not the game is suceeding <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif' /><!--endemo-->
<!--QuoteBegin-Phoebus+Jan 29 2004, 08:36 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Phoebus @ Jan 29 2004, 08:36 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Ok, you people don't understand NS. NS isn't a FPS/RTS, it's a FPS, specifically a team deathmatch game.
If you win, that's because you have better fps skill/teamwork than the other team. If you lose, that's because you have weaker fps skill/teamwork than the other team.
But if you expect strategical choices to determine the outcome of the game, prepare yourself for a big deception. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> First, most of my analogies and examples will be from the marine point of view, as the strategy concept is more concrete in the role of the commander.
I know its a rarity, but when the skill levels are very very even (certain clans and sometimes pugs), strategical choices are a huge factor.
That said, I would like to also comment that a large majority of the observations made on this topic are derived from public play, which hardly has any sort of field-leveling.
I grant that for a majority of teams entering the clan scene, they will be beat by skill, experience, and teamwork. But the beauty of the game comes when the evenly matched teams play each other, and they are forced to change and rework their 'strategical choices' heavily in order to win.
One marine in a certain location means one less marine in another location, ESPECIALLY in 6v6 clan games, where 5 marines need to cover an entire map (on foot for the most part). When you can't count on your grunts to absolutely overpower the other team by skill, you are forced to observe, scout, and predict enemy movements in order to eliminate weaknesses in your control of the map.
The maps themselves are laid out in a fairly consistent pattern. Large, general areas (hives, double nodes, even the long hallway south of Horseshoe on eclipse) connected by small, easily defensible corridors. You can almost think of the areas between these 'choke' points as large zones. You could stand by a res node to defend it, which is the obvious solution. Or you could advance and defend a choke point <b>(read: strategery)</b> and be able to not only defend the node nearest to you, but every node behind that. But advancing your position also increases your risk of losing that control to the enemy as you wander into their territory - a game of balancing risk vs. reward.
Not to mention hive locations, which can be illustrated by ns_mineshaft. Each hive has a "most efficient way" of dealing with it. Sewer hive is especially vunerable to jetpacks, being almost entirely exposed from all angles. Jetpacks, however, would be hard pressed to work in Drill Access hive, where an entire side of the hive is shielded by a wall, and only vunerable in a very small and compact area. Thus, teams are sometimes even forced to alter their strategies in game.
So no, IMHO I absolutely disagree with you. Natural Selection, at its finest, flawlessly blends the necessity of teamwork on an FPS level with the careful management and study (for there really is no other way around the pre-examination and planning on a map) of the RTS aspect. Given equal footing on the FPS level, EVERY DECISION MATTERS. Every death, kill, res use matters. The location of a player even becomes absolutely crucial. Much like how the best football coaches never pin the game on just one call, the best NS players recognize that the win comes from a game played with minimal mistakes and the proficient execution of gameplans.
Sorry, probably the most long-winded post I've ever written. Enjoy.
CplDavisI hunt the arctic SnonosJoin Date: 2003-01-09Member: 12097Members
<!--QuoteBegin-PseudoKnight+Jan 24 2004, 06:34 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (PseudoKnight @ Jan 24 2004, 06:34 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> NS is one of the top 20 online FPS games right now. It depends on what numbers you're looking at or what you're comparing it to but it can be as high as 12th or as low as 16-18th. Currently it's the 4th most played HL mod and the most popular non-retail mod of them all.
I'd say that's a really healthy number for a non-retail mod that's even going through a rough transition.
NS has shown me that the RTSS or RTSFPS genre can be as good as I dreamed it might be. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> Long Live NS! <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin.gif' /><!--endemo-->
The ONLY "EXLUSIVE" element of an RTS that I see in NS is the role of the 'rine commander and possibly the accumulation of resources mandating the gameflow dynamics. Beyond that, the gameplay is simply a tactical team-based FPS much akin to Team Fortress Classic. This is especially the case for the alien team. In fact in NS:Combat, the game is much more akin to a FPS/RPG hybrid than an FPS/RTS hybrid. To a great degree, a much broader audience will enjoy this more as it is much easier to learn and get better at than our beloved Classic mode.
In order to make NS:Classic feel more like a FPS/RTS hybrid (and thus much more playable and enjoyable IMHO) one key feature to all RTS has to be implemented in some fashion. Anyone who has ever played the more recent RTS games will know that there exists unit relations where X type units are strong vs. Y type units, but weak vs. Z type units. I simply don't see this kind of structure in the game at all, and instead see a situation much akin to Team Fortress Classic. The 'rines usually tech up the units to HA+HMG (rarely see any JP's in Classic anymore) and walk into hives and shoot it to death. Likewise, the aliens more often than not view the Onos as the "ultimate weapon" and will get everyone to go Onos if given the chance (speaking from pub experience anyway).
I completely disagree This game rocks and seldom have i seen this one guy with a small machine gun killing everything that he mentioned. Plus I think half the fun is that everything is not 100% static and there is a possibility for the skill level of each individual guy to affect the outcome of the game.
I really don't think its possible to completely balance a game like this though just because it is so dependant on player skill level but that really doesn't bother me at all. A team that knows how to work together strategicly is still gona rock a team of counterstrike doofs that load off on their own with their l33t skillzzz.
ah theres an idea, get a bunch of pub csers, put them on the marine team (with their 1337 aiming <!--emo&::nerdy::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/nerd.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='nerd.gif' /><!--endemo-->, and a bunch of pub ns players on aliens, see what happens.
<!--QuoteBegin-Gwahir+Jan 30 2004, 01:33 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Gwahir @ Jan 30 2004, 01:33 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> ah theres an idea, get a bunch of pub csers, put them on the marine team (with their 1337 aiming <!--emo&::nerdy::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/nerd.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='nerd.gif' /><!--endemo-->, and a bunch of pub ns players on aliens, see what happens. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> If you include a half-decent comm (someone who knows the map, the interface, etc.), then I wouldn't be surprised to see marines win, even if they didn't know the map.
They CAN work, it depends on the creator if it will work. NS makes the FPSS work. Savage (Which I own) is ok, but not that fun, it works but it doesnt have the flare of a replay value game.
Well, that's funny, contrary to everything you just said, it seems to work just fine, it runs and everything.
By "it doesn't work" do you mean it isn't fun? Well, I think a good percentage out of the 3000 players would disagree with that.
And if most CS players don't like NS, I couldn't care less. (well, I actually could care a <i>little</i> less, I think every gamer should give NS a chance, I find it damn good fun myself, and the more the merrier, I say)
And the way you talk about them, you make it sound like there are only two types of gamers, strategy gamers and FPS gamers. Pretty stupid comment, gamer interests are a lot more diverse than that. I myself was never crazy about FPS', I liked them a bit, but not much, I also have a very strong dislike for RTS games, playing them online didn't appeal to me at all, and here I am, just friggin nuts about NS, I can't stop playing it, even when it pisses me off, how's that fit in your theory?
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Actually, I'd have to say that he has a point - problem is that FPS players are used to making a difference on their own. Enforcing game structures that rely solely on teamwork will thus alienate many.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->Screw 'em. Team players are more fun to play with anyway. In any game. <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif' /><!--endemo-->
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--><!--QuoteBegin-i'm lost+Jan 29 2004, 06:35 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (i'm lost @ Jan 29 2004, 06:35 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin-Buggy+Jan 29 2004, 03:22 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Buggy @ Jan 29 2004, 03:22 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Individual players do have too much power. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Isn't that true in FPS games, such as CounterStrike? We used to have a CS LAN going all the time in the campus dorms here, and there were some people that were good enough that you knew their team was going to win. Any fast-paced, multiplayer online game is going to have that problem, and there is nothing that can be done about it. If you don't like it, then you will have to stick to RPG's. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> But this isnt counter-strike, or an FPS. its an RTS/FPS in which there should be more teamwork and less individual difference.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->Well, I don't think so, if I felt that it was impossible for me to make any difference in a match, I probably wouldn't play the game. Sometimes the most fun you can have in the game is being that ninja marine that builds the PG next to the hive, or the onos that holds back an entire heavy train in that narrow corridor.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Commanders should be able to prevent individual marines from picking up equipment/meds/ammo, put them back at L0 upgrades, maybe even slay them. Sure it might get abused occasionally, but they can't do anything to stop eject votes and punishments could be removed once the comm is booted, and if your comm is so juvenile that he'd abuse them the marines would probably lose anyway.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Zek, I like the way you think. <!--emo&;)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/wink.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='wink.gif' /><!--endemo-->
I dont think he said that its not fun. Hes actually sorta right. Look at NS our favourite example of FPS/RTS. Is it a perfect 50/50 mixture of the two genres? Heck no, not even close. Think about this the next time you play. How many people actually listen to the commander? Is there usually an overall strategy? (From my experience, aliens are usually not, and marines are sometimes, depends on comm).
And to add to this, as of 2.0, the resource gathering aspect of NS has been made less important. RFK is a large part of marine income, and for aliens its even bigger due to everyone having their own resources.
I do believe that NS is a great example of a FPS/RTS hybrid, but we dont play it as such.
Uh what problem is there with resource towers in first person shooters? I don't get it. <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif' /><!--endemo-->
<!--QuoteBegin-Umbraed Monkey+Jan 30 2004, 07:14 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Umbraed Monkey @ Jan 30 2004, 07:14 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Is it a perfect 50/50 mixture of the two genres? Heck no, not even close.
...
And to add to this, as of 2.0, the resource gathering aspect of NS has been made less important. RFK is a large part of marine income, and for aliens its even bigger due to everyone having their own resources.
I do believe that NS is a great example of a FPS/RTS hybrid, but we dont play it as such.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> I agree with your points, but that's not what he said either, he said that it wasn't going to be popular, that lamers can screw up a game (thanks for the news flash), that a single player can make a pretty big difference with little upgrades or weapons (yeah sure, have fun with your l33t aiming skillz and your lvl0 shottie k thx gg), that strategy is next to meaningless in ns, then he generalized gamers into two groups and said that NS only apealed to one of them.
Having a game that is both a "pure" FPS and a "pure" RTS is a pretty flawed idea, of course, but that's not what he said, he basically just slammed the whole idea of adding RTS-type elements to an FPS and threw in his dumb idea of an RTS combined with an RPG with little to back it up. And apparently, according to him, FPS/RTS games are an overdone idea. Yeah, I'm so sick of all these World War 2 shooters- I mean, RTS/FPS games, there's just too damn many.
His theory is either wrong, or completely moot, depending on how you interpret what he said.
Comments
NS isn't a FPS/RTS, it's a FPS, specifically a team deathmatch game.
If you win, that's because you have better fps skill/teamwork than the other team.
If you lose, that's because you have weaker fps skill/teamwork than the other team.
That being said, NS is a pretty good team deathmatch game with alot (and I say ALOT) of elements that help separate the skilless rambos from the skilled team-players.
But if you expect strategical choices to determine the outcome of the game, prepare yourself for a big deception. The game has been designed (and I'm talking about the patches here) so that 'skill' and ONLY 'skill' determine the outcome of the game.
'Skill' being the combination of FPS skill, teamplay, knowing the map & the details (abundant in the case of NS) of the game.
This is all, of course, IMHO.
You're write about one thing. Players can throw off the balance like nobody's business. But that's the price you pay for going one up... Yet also an advantage. Unpredictable encounters, random chance, unequal skill, these elements will, of course, create situations in which even super skilled commanders will lose, or idiot aliens will win. On the other hand, it's what <i>makes</i> NS such a great game from the comm's POV. Thinking on your feet, adapting, and sometimes dealing with the fact that you have inferior resources/power/skilled players to win, and playing accordingly...
I play RTSes. I play FPSes. Heck, I was in a clan #7 on the CAL DoD ladder (a long long long time ago). At the heart of it all it the same tenet, that of challenging people in ways they otherwise could not... It's why people play CS, but not tic-tac-toe.
And, while some people will not want to play a game that requires the level of teamwork, level of time, etc, that NS requires, so what? NS is not supposed to appeal to everyone. Heck, there are people who won't play anything besides deathmatch! We know NS is getting things right/wrong by whether it's got the players that <i>would</i> be interested in a brilliant RTS/FPS hybrid, not by whether it can beat a generic appeal game like Counterstrike.
Flayra and the devs aren't trying to win an election, they're trying to make a great game. And just like great books, or great music, that's often utterly contrary to being top dog in numbers.
P.S. NS 3.0 is #3 on da Steam listings, yah.
Then you just alienate new players who join after the transition is made. I think there are a couple reasons this is a problem in almost all pubs:
1.) Learning curve: Commanding properly is extremely hard, and playing well as an Alien team requires a good amount of knowledge because there's nobody to tell you what to do. Most players who really know how to play well don't play on random pubs with no admin presence.
2.) Communication. Pubbers don't talk to each other. They're not used to having to talk to anyone else about game-related things. Commanders without a mic are almost always a disaster. I don't know what we can do about it, but it relates to the next one:
3.) Discipline. Commanders can't do anything to make their team cooperate. Certainly kicking them shouldn't be possible, but IMHO anything below admin powers should be free game for comms. If your comm is crappy and abusive you lost anyway, and you can still eject him. Commanders should be able to prevent individual marines from picking up equipment/meds/ammo, put them back at L0 upgrades, maybe even slay them. Sure it might get abused occasionally, but they can't do anything to stop eject votes and punishments could be removed once the comm is booted, and if your comm is so juvenile that he'd abuse them the marines would probably lose anyway.
Aliens also suffer from this, but even moreso because they have no power over their teammates whatsoever. Marines simply need to listen to one person, even newbies can do it. Aliens on the other hand have to be functional completely independent of one another, which means they ALL need a certain amount of knowledge about how to play the game to do really well. Asking an uncooperative teammate to do something on aliens rarely goes over well unless you have admin to back it up. This wasn't much of a problem at all in 1.04(except double gorging, which could have been fixed), but now with the multiple gorge system it's just much more difficult to organize.
have you played any ns_ maps??
yes, co is a TDM
however reg NS is definatly an FPS/RTS.
Yes, it is missing alot of things that an RTS has (micro management, large tech trees etc) however it still has some key things at the same time.
Strategic area control?
Rez management?
etc etc etc.
oh, and: Name/Currentplayers/Servers/PlayerMins per month
#3) Natural Selection v3.0 (beta) 1,876 397 76.513 million
woot <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif' /><!--endemo-->
we win <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif' /><!--endemo-->
So basically you are saying that it is pretty much impossible to make a strategic move when it depend too much on human players. Therefore the game is not a fps/rts hybrid but back to the fps teamplay position.
Sadly, I agree with this reasoning. One does not put a monkey's mask on and say he is intrinsically a monkey-man. He is still a man under that mask (by mask I meant the commanding interface in the fasion of c&c warcraft etc). The same is somewhat true in ns, savage or any other game I've seen so far.
There still are a lot of elements that needs to be done/invented, but we shouldn't say it just doesn't work and give up nor should we say that this game is perfect and go hide in a cave. Ns/savage is a pretty big step in the process. Like "donkey kong" which leads to the mario empire, like "nethack" which probably began the whole d&d<->rpg genre, games like these are the pavement to other great games. We should be proud to be a part of it.
(edit) After thinking about it a bit, the concept of strategy doesn't necessary have to stop here and now, only in the commander's hand. Fps has its own strategy as most of you people know. It might be a little different than the strategy in a rts, but everything evolves. Every game requires some sort of strategy, even pong.
Skill and strategy are two different things but there is this gray area where strategy determines your skill level. To fake a leaping skulk in pretending you were going into one way, but you're going another, that takes more strategy than skill. Sure, to do the perfect feign you need to practice more to improve your 'skill', but the concept of faking out the skulk is pure strategy.(/edit)
And on the other side of the fence, the aliens don't all need to be super skilled either, group ambushes, and communication will win the day.
And on the other side of the fence, the aliens don't all need to be super skilled either, group ambushes, and communication will win the day. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
That is true, but when you pit that team of aliens against leet marines who don't communicate that well, you will not get a easy win. A elite lone marine without any teamwork can do some heavy damage to the kharaa. Same is true with a lone ono/skulk/whatever. That is what we're talking about when a single fps player having too much power. Its no longer about strategical moves/locations/upgrades/counters when players can exceed the created limits. Such as a skilled skulk devouring HA, or a single vanilla marine keeps an ono at bay when realisitic speaking the marine should have died.
Oh...and by saying you have no commanded yet doesn't give you any creditbility doesnt it? <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif' /><!--endemo--> GO commAND now!! Go make a fake name and hop in if you're that self conscioused ;P
Considering that the commander is the one that places building and researches upgrades etc etc gives him/her a lot of strategic control - sure a leet marine can do well in the early stages of the game by him/herself but when the aliens go higher lifeforms and upgrade themselves even that leet marine will be begging for some upgrade/equipment.
The alien team are not so dependant on a single individual for the strategic placements but none the less require some use of the RTS elements of NS to win, otherwise there will be a lack of res which equate to little to no upgrades/higher lifeforms.
So no its not a FULL RTS, but its not an FPS only - if you do not use the RTS components you will most likely not get anywhere.
my 2cents
Oh no, stop the press.
Why should NS be different?
That's not what is being said. The point being made, I think, is that a team with one really good player and several players that barely know what they are doing have a decent chance against a team of all decent players, because that one player can tip the balance so much.
Just drop 4 cat packs on the rambos and watch how long they can "pwn" with 1 HP.
But to get back to the point, the marine mode does work, and it works extremely well. Players have reason to defend their base, because the buildings directly affect their game. Players have reason to follow the commander's orders, because otherwise he won't equip them. The commander's centralised direction of the team makes an <i>enormous</i> difference, and it's most noticable when commanders deviate from the norm.
So, the playerbase of a game is no reflection of its quality (and even so, that argument fails in this case. NS is the most popular independent HL mod.) In addition, whether or not you yourself enjoy a game is no indication of whether or not the game is suceeding <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif' /><!--endemo-->
NS isn't a FPS/RTS, it's a FPS, specifically a team deathmatch game.
If you win, that's because you have better fps skill/teamwork than the other team.
If you lose, that's because you have weaker fps skill/teamwork than the other team.
But if you expect strategical choices to determine the outcome of the game, prepare yourself for a big deception. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
First, most of my analogies and examples will be from the marine point of view, as the strategy concept is more concrete in the role of the commander.
I know its a rarity, but when the skill levels are very very even (certain clans and sometimes pugs), strategical choices are a huge factor.
That said, I would like to also comment that a large majority of the observations made on this topic are derived from public play, which hardly has any sort of field-leveling.
I grant that for a majority of teams entering the clan scene, they will be beat by skill, experience, and teamwork. But the beauty of the game comes when the evenly matched teams play each other, and they are forced to change and rework their 'strategical choices' heavily in order to win.
One marine in a certain location means one less marine in another location, ESPECIALLY in 6v6 clan games, where 5 marines need to cover an entire map (on foot for the most part). When you can't count on your grunts to absolutely overpower the other team by skill, you are forced to observe, scout, and predict enemy movements in order to eliminate weaknesses in your control of the map.
The maps themselves are laid out in a fairly consistent pattern. Large, general areas (hives, double nodes, even the long hallway south of Horseshoe on eclipse) connected by small, easily defensible corridors. You can almost think of the areas between these 'choke' points as large zones. You could stand by a res node to defend it, which is the obvious solution. Or you could advance and defend a choke point <b>(read: strategery)</b> and be able to not only defend the node nearest to you, but every node behind that. But advancing your position also increases your risk of losing that control to the enemy as you wander into their territory - a game of balancing risk vs. reward.
Not to mention hive locations, which can be illustrated by ns_mineshaft. Each hive has a "most efficient way" of dealing with it. Sewer hive is especially vunerable to jetpacks, being almost entirely exposed from all angles. Jetpacks, however, would be hard pressed to work in Drill Access hive, where an entire side of the hive is shielded by a wall, and only vunerable in a very small and compact area. Thus, teams are sometimes even forced to alter their strategies in game.
So no, IMHO I absolutely disagree with you. Natural Selection, at its finest, flawlessly blends the necessity of teamwork on an FPS level with the careful management and study (for there really is no other way around the pre-examination and planning on a map) of the RTS aspect. Given equal footing on the FPS level, EVERY DECISION MATTERS. Every death, kill, res use matters. The location of a player even becomes absolutely crucial. Much like how the best football coaches never pin the game on just one call, the best NS players recognize that the win comes from a game played with minimal mistakes and the proficient execution of gameplans.
Sorry, probably the most long-winded post I've ever written. Enjoy.
I'd say that's a really healthy number for a non-retail mod that's even going through a rough transition.
NS has shown me that the RTSS or RTSFPS genre can be as good as I dreamed it might be. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
Long Live NS! <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin.gif' /><!--endemo-->
In order to make NS:Classic feel more like a FPS/RTS hybrid (and thus much more playable and enjoyable IMHO) one key feature to all RTS has to be implemented in some fashion. Anyone who has ever played the more recent RTS games will know that there exists unit relations where X type units are strong vs. Y type units, but weak vs. Z type units. I simply don't see this kind of structure in the game at all, and instead see a situation much akin to Team Fortress Classic. The 'rines usually tech up the units to HA+HMG (rarely see any JP's in Classic anymore) and walk into hives and shoot it to death. Likewise, the aliens more often than not view the Onos as the "ultimate weapon" and will get everyone to go Onos if given the chance (speaking from pub experience anyway).
I'm done rambling now.
This game rocks and seldom have i seen this one guy with a small machine gun killing everything that he mentioned. Plus I think half the fun is that everything is not 100% static and there is a possibility for the skill level of each individual guy to affect the outcome of the game.
I really don't think its possible to completely balance a game like this though just because it is so dependant on player skill level but that really doesn't bother me at all. A team that knows how to work together strategicly is still gona rock a team of counterstrike doofs that load off on their own with their l33t skillzzz.
If you include a half-decent comm (someone who knows the map, the interface, etc.), then I wouldn't be surprised to see marines win, even if they didn't know the map.
*goes to play NS*
Well, that's funny, contrary to everything you just said, it seems to work just fine, it runs and everything.
By "it doesn't work" do you mean it isn't fun? Well, I think a good percentage out of the 3000 players would disagree with that.
And if most CS players don't like NS, I couldn't care less. (well, I actually could care a <i>little</i> less, I think every gamer should give NS a chance, I find it damn good fun myself, and the more the merrier, I say)
And the way you talk about them, you make it sound like there are only two types of gamers, strategy gamers and FPS gamers. Pretty stupid comment, gamer interests are a lot more diverse than that. I myself was never crazy about FPS', I liked them a bit, but not much, I also have a very strong dislike for RTS games, playing them online didn't appeal to me at all, and here I am, just friggin nuts about NS, I can't stop playing it, even when it pisses me off, how's that fit in your theory?
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Actually, I'd have to say that he has a point - problem is that FPS players are used to making a difference on their own. Enforcing game structures that rely solely on teamwork will thus alienate many.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->Screw 'em. Team players are more fun to play with anyway. In any game. <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif' /><!--endemo-->
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--><!--QuoteBegin-i'm lost+Jan 29 2004, 06:35 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (i'm lost @ Jan 29 2004, 06:35 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin-Buggy+Jan 29 2004, 03:22 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Buggy @ Jan 29 2004, 03:22 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Individual players do have too much power. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Isn't that true in FPS games, such as CounterStrike? We used to have a CS LAN going all the time in the campus dorms here, and there were some people that were good enough that you knew their team was going to win. Any fast-paced, multiplayer online game is going to have that problem, and there is nothing that can be done about it. If you don't like it, then you will have to stick to RPG's. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
But this isnt counter-strike, or an FPS. its an RTS/FPS in which there should be more teamwork and less individual difference.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->Well, I don't think so, if I felt that it was impossible for me to make any difference in a match, I probably wouldn't play the game. Sometimes the most fun you can have in the game is being that ninja marine that builds the PG next to the hive, or the onos that holds back an entire heavy train in that narrow corridor.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Commanders should be able to prevent individual marines from picking up equipment/meds/ammo, put them back at L0 upgrades, maybe even slay them. Sure it might get abused occasionally, but they can't do anything to stop eject votes and punishments could be removed once the comm is booted, and if your comm is so juvenile that he'd abuse them the marines would probably lose anyway.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Zek, I like the way you think. <!--emo&;)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/wink.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='wink.gif' /><!--endemo-->
And to add to this, as of 2.0, the resource gathering aspect of NS has been made less important. RFK is a large part of marine income, and for aliens its even bigger due to everyone having their own resources.
I do believe that NS is a great example of a FPS/RTS hybrid, but we dont play it as such.
...
And to add to this, as of 2.0, the resource gathering aspect of NS has been made less important. RFK is a large part of marine income, and for aliens its even bigger due to everyone having their own resources.
I do believe that NS is a great example of a FPS/RTS hybrid, but we dont play it as such.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I agree with your points, but that's not what he said either, he said that it wasn't going to be popular, that lamers can screw up a game (thanks for the news flash), that a single player can make a pretty big difference with little upgrades or weapons (yeah sure, have fun with your l33t aiming skillz and your lvl0 shottie k thx gg), that strategy is next to meaningless in ns, then he generalized gamers into two groups and said that NS only apealed to one of them.
Having a game that is both a "pure" FPS and a "pure" RTS is a pretty flawed idea, of course, but that's not what he said, he basically just slammed the whole idea of adding RTS-type elements to an FPS and threw in his dumb idea of an RTS combined with an RPG with little to back it up. And apparently, according to him, FPS/RTS games are an overdone idea. Yeah, I'm so sick of all these World War 2 shooters- I mean, RTS/FPS games, there's just too damn many.
His theory is either wrong, or completely moot, depending on how you interpret what he said.