Rts And Fps Doesn't Mix Well
Go7
Join Date: 2002-11-01 Member: 2553Members
Join Date: 2002-11-01 Member: 2553Members
I don't think RTS/FPS hybrids can work, after playing NS, Savage, and Battlezone 2. So far, all of these games have done really badly. NS is fun and all, but it only has about 150 American servers, and it's really not getting that much more popular.... I strongly doubt it will succeed on the retail shelves.
Probably the main problem all of these games have is that they give so much power to the players to completely screw over everything "strategical" about the game. Battlezone 2 was probably the only game capable of avoiding this problem, although only through MOD play. In stock play, players had very little computer opponents to deal with, so the players were immensely powerful and skewed the game. In MOD play, you could make the players just mere uber-soldiers on a battlefield full of dozens of tanks, and so they couldn't skew the game much. In NS, individual players can be so good that they can grab a relatively cheap unit or weapon and kill lots of enemies, making tactics and strategy next to meaningless. People say 3.0 will change all of this, but people have been saying this forever. I don't think the game can be fixed, the very core concept is what will keep the game broke (in most people's eyes), no matter what. Allegiance was a RTS/space-sim hybrid, it failed miserably too, again... forcing players to fill nearly *all* roles in the game, when AIs should have been involved everywhere.
Instead of RTS/FPS hybrids, I think it's time designers start looking at other genres to mix together. RTS and RPG would work better I think, as all players would be *forced* to work within a certain ruleset. RTS/actionRPG would work as well. RTS flight sims might be OK too, as flight combat is very smooth and organised, not fast-paced. It would also be easy to include enormous AI involvement, flight sims are very easy on bandwidth.
Another thing to consider.... I'd argue that RTS/FPS hybrids have almost no appeal to the vast majority of FPS gamers (counter-strike, rainbow six, Day of Defeat). I believe Savage, BZ2, and NS primarily appeal to gamers who are very fond of RPGs, MMORPGs, strategy games, etc (games that have no appeal to FPS gamers). I used to frequent the forums at www.pvpforums.com, when I realised that most of those people were seemingly obsessed with those kind of games, and also enjoyed NS. But few of them were DOD, Rainbow, or CS fans.
FPS gamers and RPG gamers are truly different breeds, and we shouldn't forget that. And while RTS games can appeal to both sides, I believe they most strongly appeal to RPG gamers. And so, if NS fails at market, you know why :-P
Probably the main problem all of these games have is that they give so much power to the players to completely screw over everything "strategical" about the game. Battlezone 2 was probably the only game capable of avoiding this problem, although only through MOD play. In stock play, players had very little computer opponents to deal with, so the players were immensely powerful and skewed the game. In MOD play, you could make the players just mere uber-soldiers on a battlefield full of dozens of tanks, and so they couldn't skew the game much. In NS, individual players can be so good that they can grab a relatively cheap unit or weapon and kill lots of enemies, making tactics and strategy next to meaningless. People say 3.0 will change all of this, but people have been saying this forever. I don't think the game can be fixed, the very core concept is what will keep the game broke (in most people's eyes), no matter what. Allegiance was a RTS/space-sim hybrid, it failed miserably too, again... forcing players to fill nearly *all* roles in the game, when AIs should have been involved everywhere.
Instead of RTS/FPS hybrids, I think it's time designers start looking at other genres to mix together. RTS and RPG would work better I think, as all players would be *forced* to work within a certain ruleset. RTS/actionRPG would work as well. RTS flight sims might be OK too, as flight combat is very smooth and organised, not fast-paced. It would also be easy to include enormous AI involvement, flight sims are very easy on bandwidth.
Another thing to consider.... I'd argue that RTS/FPS hybrids have almost no appeal to the vast majority of FPS gamers (counter-strike, rainbow six, Day of Defeat). I believe Savage, BZ2, and NS primarily appeal to gamers who are very fond of RPGs, MMORPGs, strategy games, etc (games that have no appeal to FPS gamers). I used to frequent the forums at www.pvpforums.com, when I realised that most of those people were seemingly obsessed with those kind of games, and also enjoyed NS. But few of them were DOD, Rainbow, or CS fans.
FPS gamers and RPG gamers are truly different breeds, and we shouldn't forget that. And while RTS games can appeal to both sides, I believe they most strongly appeal to RPG gamers. And so, if NS fails at market, you know why :-P
Comments
FPS gamers and RPG gamers are truly different breeds, and we shouldn't forget that. And while RTS games can appeal to both sides, I believe they most strongly appeal to RPG gamers. And so, if NS fails at market, you know why :-P <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
I have played both RTS and FPS games in the past (Warcraft 3, Counter-strike). None of those single genre games was able to captivate my interest as much as NS, the dual-genre game.
RTS/FPS hybrids can work.
#5 most played game on steam
#5 most played game on steam <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
Also worth bearing in mind that Steam has a lot less servers than there are WON servers, which aren't accounted for in the Steam stats.
oh yeah, i actually quit cs to play NS becuase ns is about 100 times better in the FPS catagory...
As for RTS/FPS mixes, it's hard, then again, making new things always is.
The short and sweet: If you dislike RTSFPSes, your call, but that doesn't disprove the concept. I hate sports games, but they still work.
isnt that all that matters?
Curse you! I was just about to make exactly the same observation, only in a slightly more scathing and witty fashion <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo-->
However, I strongly disagree with your POV now that I see what the topic is about.
Here's the point: screw the people who don't like it, they can go play CS. This is a much more detailed, and imho better game than the more popular ones. It appeals to a smaller, more mature community, and I see nothign wrong with that.
I'd say that's a really healthy number for a non-retail mod that's even going through a rough transition.
NS has shown me that the RTSS or RTSFPS genre can be as good as I dreamed it might be.
#5 most played game on steam <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
Wait until next week. It will be #3.
-m
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rts/fps hybrids have great appeal to me as with many hybrid type games, i beleve that mixing 2 diffrent game types can put out something new and cool (i also think NS was a great sucess of this, but ns combat may be ruining the hybrid nature of the game :.( ) and to say, i play DOD quite frequent and i enjoy it :<i>P</i>
I also beleve that ns should stay free, ns should be forever priceless due to its great sucess with the "mix"
Second, you're clearly talking about the typical pub server gameplay. You're quite right; when a bunch of players are randomly assembled on a completely un-admined server, the game isn't very fun for people who know what they're doing. You won't get the cooperation that NS needs that way. If you want to enjoy this game on a higher level you need to regular on servers with active admins and a lot of other regulars. FPS/RTS works extremely well when people on the team are willing to listen and the bad seeds can be removed, simple as that.
Isn't that true in FPS games, such as CounterStrike? We used to have a CS LAN going all the time in the campus dorms here, and there were some people that were good enough that you knew their team was going to win. Any fast-paced, multiplayer online game is going to have that problem, and there is nothing that can be done about it. If you don't like it, then you will have to stick to RPG's.
Isn't that true in FPS games, such as CounterStrike? We used to have a CS LAN going all the time in the campus dorms here, and there were some people that were good enough that you knew their team was going to win. Any fast-paced, multiplayer online game is going to have that problem, and there is nothing that can be done about it. If you don't like it, then you will have to stick to RPG's. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
But this isnt counter-strike, or an FPS. its an RTS/FPS in which there should be more teamwork and less individual difference.
Yeah, there was a quote going around about this issue that started on the Savage forums. It was about how Flayra making NS work on the HL engine was like making a tank fly with only a paperclip and a piece of string. I'm pretty sure I've butchered the quote, but it really doesn't matter.
My point (and I think Warrior's) is that from what Flayra has had to work with, he's done a damn good job putting this mod together. I'd say, give Flayra and the mod team a new engine, with alot of time to tweak it, and they would show the world what a true FPS/RTS hybrid should be. NS has its faults, but don't expect it to be the best that can come out of the growing FPS/RTS hybrid genre.
Another problem i see is here on the forums... people wine, and complain... ALOT! "omg i couldn't kill the fade!" guess what buddah? your a 0 res unit and you SHOULDN'T kill a fade. Thats like complaining to blizzard that your single marine didnt take out a tank in siege mode for Starcraft. People have to realise that there just are situations in which you CANT win, Do what damage you can and take it like a man!
I for one think the NS Dev team is doing a great job of ignoring the claims of "overpowered" units when NEEDED. keep up the good work, you have my attention <!--emo&;)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/wink.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='wink.gif' /><!--endemo-->
Removing the power for single players to have an influence on the landscape of play turns it into a game that only the commander enjoys playing. NS would loose its following really fast.
As mentioned before, if you think that the teams are unbalanced, then you need to find servers where people balance the teams. On my local Game Planet server, about 3/4 of the players are veterans (not officially, but they should be) and they make sure that the teams are balanced most of the time by joining the least popular team.
I think that this is a provocative thread, but not a troll as it does make a valid point - thinking about the audience is important if you want this game to succeed.
I think as a Half-life mod, this game is right on target. Especially with the Combat mode to ease people into the ideas of the game.
-Parallax