<!--QuoteBegin--Forlorn+Jan 17 2004, 10:21 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Forlorn @ Jan 17 2004, 10:21 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Wrong, clans form when people play it on pubs and see tons of potential for clan play, and then form clans.
Thank you for your valuable info, try again. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> Really? So you believe a more narrow skill corridor will attract more clan people than a fun game which suits more people?
--NS is balanced enough. The only thing that the Kharaa really need to take care of at all times is res dominion. Give marines even two RT's for a minute too long; HA-train, GG.
Short input from someone talking to the big one more than enough about this subject: NS' balance was <i><b>not</b></i> layed out for clan matches only, and NS itself is in no way supposed to be a solely clan oriented game. The idea is to reach an even field amongst experienced players (the fact that we have hardened veterans seeing a slight advantage for both teams is a good sign here), and a game as balanced as humanly possible in pubplay, where 'perfect balance' (an oxymoron in itself) is impossible to achieve due to the amount of arbitrary influences.
<!--QuoteBegin--kolokol+Jan 17 2004, 11:14 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (kolokol @ Jan 17 2004, 11:14 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> When you have good players the only factor that has any effect on balance is the map itself. Some maps are kinder to the aliens than others. As for what ive seen so far? I was commander, think it was origin?... it was the one with nano double res. We completely owned them. The aliens just didn't get the teamwork toghether to kill us. I have seen aliens on ns tanith camp marine spawn so well we couldnt get out even when our entire team rushed out the door. Five skulks would instantly drop on our heads..gg aliens. In the end the aliens rely on being very close to the enemy en mass. Then the aliens win by letting all hell break loose so the marines dont have a chance. In some maps this is alot more difficult than others. The one with the nano double res is a nightmare for aliens, with the biggest problem being the complete lack of cover. I would love to know if clanners ever win on this map as alien. In ns in general if the aliens don't stage and win these ambushes its over. Is this really true in clan matches? Or does res control come into it? <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> That's ns_veil, and actually eR beat HAM on that map as aliens and marines in the cal-i finals, bad luck for HAM I'd say, but eR played extremely well..
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Play in a match don't watch before wanting balance changes based on competitive play.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Trust me, I've played much pugs and gathers, and especially on pugs, marines always seem to win.
<!--QuoteBegin--Nemesis Zero+Jan 18 2004, 07:56 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Nemesis Zero @ Jan 18 2004, 07:56 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Short input from someone talking to the big one more than enough about this subject: NS' balance was <i><b>not</b></i> layed out for clan matches only, and NS itself is in no way supposed to be a solely clan oriented game. The idea is to reach an even field amongst experienced players (the fact that we have hardened veterans seeing a slight advantage for both teams is a good sign here), and a game as balanced as humanly possible in pubplay, where 'perfect balance' (an oxymoron in itself) is impossible to achieve due to the amount of arbitrary influences.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Who are the hardened veterans that say Marines have the advantage? I don't mean to be rude but Forlorn isn't quite the authority on top-level gameplay. Additionally, what founding do these claims have? eR is right: Aliens have a slight advantage shown by the frequency at which they win. Every tie I've seen in high clan gameplay has been a result of two alien wins. I have yet to see fact, not opinion, that support an argument otherwise.
Edit:
Pugs are not grounds for arguing game balance. Marines are not overpowered in NS, marines are overpowered in Pugs. Marines have an advantage in Pugs simply because of the orginization commanders bring to the team. It's much easier to organize your 6 Pug marines than it is to organize 6 Pug aliens. Perhaps I was a bit too hasty in my last post. I'll concede the fact that Marines may be overpowered given a random group of players. However, this is a technical imbalence- one that does not lie with the strength of a weapon or the ammount of res such and such costs. Regardless, the issue here is ultimately dependant on the players. And, in situations with equally skilled individuals (practiced with each other - not a pug situation), the commander advantage is moot.
id say you are right that marines are able to own skulks long-range and mid-range because they are supposed to be able to. whether that is a good or bad thing... well i think its a good thing. Aliens used to be the one team that didn't require any teamwork and you could still win the game and now that they are starting to require teamwork it starts to scare some people. Face reality, marines should be able to kill a skulk 1v1 in a mid-range to long-range situation. Additionally skulks will win a close-range encounter 2/3+ of the time.
I only read the opening "argument" and none of the posts inbetween so if this was stated or I am re-opening a already closed argument then I'm sorry <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo-->
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Pugs are not grounds for arguing game balance.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Do people play the game on pugs? By golly, they do, so it <i>is</i> grounds for arguing game balance, case closed. One may not be able to tweak the balance to its last extend in pubplay, but (relative) balance is just as big a requirement there as it is in clanplay.
I think the main balance problem in NS is the lack of power in prediction. Knowing your enemy gets you nowhere as far as it should do in a strategy game. Thus, game balance can get very close to the optimal values, but it will still feel unbalanced due to the lack of <a href='http://www.sirlin.net/Features/feature_Yomi.htm' target='_blank'>yomi layers</a>.
<!--QuoteBegin--Funkapotamus+Jan 18 2004, 11:17 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Funkapotamus @ Jan 18 2004, 11:17 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin--Nemesis Zero+Jan 18 2004, 07:56 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Nemesis Zero @ Jan 18 2004, 07:56 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Short input from someone talking to the big one more than enough about this subject: NS' balance was <i><b>not</b></i> layed out for clan matches only, and NS itself is in no way supposed to be a solely clan oriented game. The idea is to reach an even field amongst experienced players (the fact that we have hardened veterans seeing a slight advantage for both teams is a good sign here), and a game as balanced as humanly possible in pubplay, where 'perfect balance' (an oxymoron in itself) is impossible to achieve due to the amount of arbitrary influences.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Who are the hardened veterans that say Marines have the advantage? I don't mean to be rude but Forlorn isn't quite the authority on top-level gameplay. Additionally, what founding do these claims have? eR is right: Aliens have a slight advantage shown by the frequency at which they win. Every tie I've seen in high clan gameplay has been a result of two alien wins. I have yet to see fact, not opinion, that support an argument otherwise. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> I'd say I have more authority on the subject of the team with a bigger advantage than you do, no offense.
Marines, at an extreamlly high level of skill, DO HOLD THE ADVANTAGE. Imagine a marine team with aimbots. It would be literally impossible to beat something like this. The alien team RELIES on the fact that in order for them to win, marines mess up, and can't shoot accurately enough to kill them. And it's true! It is extreamlly difficult to play as a good marine, especially since there are so many ways for aliens to make you mess up.
Such as attacking from opposite sides, hit and runs to deplete your ammo, killing your res, attacking your stuctures where you can't defend them, etc. etc...
However, if all marines were equipped with an aimbot, they would never ever ever lose. This is why, in high level gameplay, the closer regular human beings go towards perfect aiming, then the harder it is for aliens to win.
I'm not saying the game is balanced, I'm just telling you what I know. Aliens win more often because it's easier to win with them. However, marines most certainly hold the advantage if they are good enough to use it.
And to prove my little thesis here, you should see a lot more marine wins this time around in CAL, esp. at higher levels of play.
<!--QuoteBegin--coris+Jan 17 2004, 12:03 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (coris @ Jan 17 2004, 12:03 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> A skulks only real chance of actually beeing able to kill marines are these:
[B]<span style='font-size:14pt;line-height:100%'>Ambush, though it wont always work, its the most effective.</span>
Bunnyhoping, to get close on to the marine and bite him really fast, wont work if the marine can aim though.
Rush in groups with a gorge healspraying, will always work, but its a pretty bad alternative since this concentrates 3-4 players to one spot, and the marines will therefor gain map-control.
A skulks best chance to be totally sure to take down a marine is to get in behind him and bite.
I've been spectating some clan-matches via HLTV, and even if the aliens win in the end, its only because the marines rush to take down the hive didnt work. The can still loose even if they control big parts of the map, BUT its not *necessary* for them to do so.
Yesterday, I watched .BM take on Innox, and during the mid-game, .BM totally isolated themselves in their base with mines, so the fades couldnt come in and they just saved up a ton of res, teched thanks to the 3-4 eleced rts they had and rushed the hive, balanced?
The only real alternative for the kharaa is to get 2-3 fades really early that pairs up and takes down the marines res, probably with a backup from a gorge and some skulks (like Hamburg pretty often do, but you all know how vurnable aliens are to shotguns..
The solution:
The marines, shouldnt be able to go rambo on their own. You all know that, and this need to be adressed in some way. Id say: we have to make the skulks a little faster or give it a slight healthboost, but this may not be necessary. The lmg also should have some decreased accurucym, but the biggest fix that is needed is this: either, the recoil should get TOTALLY screwed when a marine jump, OR they shouldnt be able to jump at all while firing (the best way of fixxing this?) so they cant "bunnyhop" backwards while shooting a skulk...
Another thing that should be tested, that really could have a major effect, is that the marine's view should "fly up in the roof" <!--emo&;)--><img src='http://www.natural-selection.org/forums/html/emoticons/wink.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='wink.gif'><!--endemo--> Nah, but the marine should loose tracking when he gets bit by a skulks (same thing that happens when a marine knife an alien, or when you get hit in the head in cs.)
Something needs to be done to the balance the way it is now, especially in big games.
Im sorry about the grammar / Spelling, but i dont speak english as mouthertounge. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Yes, this is what a skulk, and all aliens in general (barring onos) are SUPPOSED TO DO.......
and it is what they DID, before RFK was introduced
COME ON YOU ALL REMEMBER 1.04... camping a node ALL FREAKING GAME, simply because you denyed it to the marines, or camping above a door for 5 minutes until a marine walked thru and bit his head off. and it was better than RFK, which makes aliens ALL RAMBO's
I mean why not rush a group of marines.. even if you kill one of them before dying, thats on res closer to ONOSING, verses 1.04 where youd just skulk in the doors and inform your team as to what they were doing..... then organize an ambush at the next door or something.....
As Alien.. rush rush rush get kills so i can go fade or whatever Marines... do better because they arent in direct control of thier res... so they dont go sugar crazy crack monkey trying to get it and sacrafice themselves for one measly kill....
Also the games were slower back then, everything was more planned out as comms had more time to think...
<!--QuoteBegin--XCan+Jan 18 2004, 06:20 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (XCan @ Jan 18 2004, 06:20 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin--Forlorn+Jan 17 2004, 10:21 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Forlorn @ Jan 17 2004, 10:21 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Wrong, clans form when people play it on pubs and see tons of potential for clan play, and then form clans.
Thank you for your valuable info, try again. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Really? So you believe a more narrow skill corridor will attract more clan people than a fun game which suits more people? <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> Yep, I believe that, because that's exactly what I said! Talk about the spiiiiiiin zone!
Oh wait, no it wasn't... try again. <!--emo&;)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/wink.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='wink.gif'><!--endemo-->
I've been playing ns for a long time now as a side game (mostly DoD). As mentioned I also believe the outcome of the game is more based on skill of the players (and what map is playing).
The only thing I really have to say to coris is.... you use a jump script? doesn't that take out the whole "human ability" thing. IMO scripts (such as your jump script or nade scripts in DoD) are useless, and shouldn't be allowed.
If you've played between all the different patches, you'd notice a change in the amount of wins aliens and marines would get.... one time i'd be mostly marines winning... then aliens.... then marines... and so on. This shows they are trying to make it balanced, not overpowering a side. <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo-->
<!--QuoteBegin--Mr.Wizard+Jan 19 2004, 08:34 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Mr.Wizard @ Jan 19 2004, 08:34 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> I've been playing ns for a long time now as a side game (mostly DoD). As mentioned I also believe the outcome of the game is more based on skill of the players (and what map is playing).
The only thing I really have to say to coris is.... you use a jump script? doesn't that take out the whole "human ability" thing. IMO scripts (such as your jump script or nade scripts in DoD) are useless, and shouldn't be allowed.
If you've played between all the different patches, you'd notice a change in the amount of wins aliens and marines would get.... one time i'd be mostly marines winning... then aliens.... then marines... and so on. This shows they are trying to make it balanced, not overpowering a side. <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo--> <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> Nope, I jump with space, bound to +jump <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo--> Well, I'd say the biggest difference in loss/win ratios was between 1.04 and 2.0, but now, the ratios are almost back to 1.04 (where the games where very balanced imo, there actually wasnt that hard to take down a HMG + JP:er if you had skill with leap <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo--> )
I agree, it's too easy for marines. It may just be that I tend to play on the bigger servers where number of players means that the aliens don't get enough res, but 3/4 of the time I see marines win. Usually it starts with a group of marines just run around the map capping all the res right off the start, killing gorges etc, and the aliens can't do anything to stop them because there's 6 lmgs shooting the momment any skulk pops up. Then the res get electrofied, then the marines, siege/tech/shotgun rush the hive. Having just started commanding a week or so ago, I was surprised out how easy it is to win as marines, even if u don't entirely know what you're doing. With an excess 100 res flowing in from 5 or 6 nodes, pretty much anything you spend it on will help screw the aliens over.
I find the win ratio to be fairly even, not an exact 50/50, but close enough to be even (and no, I can't tell you which team I find wins slightly more often).
The problem, IMHO, seems to lie at the point in a game (idealy mid-game), where the victory could go to either team. when such an event occurs (I.E: one team hasn't been dominating the round from the start) I find that if the aliens start to dominate, the general chatter of marines has the air of "Ok, they got that point, but we can still push them back", and often enough, they do. But if the marines begin to dominate, the Aliens chatter goes to "OMG, you noobs. they won, everyone F4!", (I won't comment on if "noobs" caused this or not) providing the aliens didnt' loose due to the F4 thing, I find it rare that they can push back.
The thing is, it is hard to tell if this comes from the only the players' attitudes, or some actual balance issues wich have gone on for so long that the aliens find it pointless to continue at that point.
As for the arguments that skulks should be, well, skulking, and not charging down a hallway straight at the marines. I agree completely, but many maps have long, straight corridors, which offer few places to hide (without cloaking) yet I don't want them changed from that, because I already find on the hallways that do have small objects sticking out, I always get stuck on them while blinking as a fade (and while flying as a lerk, but the new flight model in 3.0 should change that).
And then there's the alien's OC. At best it may surprise and kill one marine once, but after that, he (or his team-mates, providing he wasnt ramboing) will just retreat around a corner and shoot at it's base.
Aren't clan matches revolving around the fade? Skulks can't do squat against marines, marines can't do squat against fades as early as they arrive, so the kharaa team can win fairly easy if they do well enough to get a few early fades?
Skulks, for better or worse, have always had lots of damage potential but very little direct combat ability. Experianced marines won't fall into the traps that the kharaa lay for them most of the time, engaging on their own terms, and the skulks really don't have much of a chance. Then it switches back with the fades: the marines have no control over where they engage, because the fades can hit them anywhere, soften them up, and let the skulks clean up the mess.
If it weren't for the incredible power of fades in good hands, I would expect the marines to win every clanmatch round.
<ul><li>5 alien res vs 5 marine res = marine win. <li>Successful marine relocate to double res node + some turtling, tends to result in marine win - no alien siege, Onos vulnerable to HMGs when he has to climb through a bonsai base or turret farm. <li>Early skilled fade can be a nightmare for marines, especially if he gets in the base while marines are out - hard to give out shotguns when IP + armory are covered by fade. <li>Bonsai base with elec TF counters early skulk rush, but early shotgun rush is harder for aliens to counter (though will cost marines the game if it fails).</ul>
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->The problem is that a lone marine pretty easy can take down a carap'd bunnyhoping skulk, especially if the skulk isnt using a +3jumps script (like me)<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
First page 6th post from the bottom.
I think marines have the advantage of keeping buildings away from them or destroying a group set (wol) of buildings easier than the kharra team which can take longer then a few pings. -- basically what Trent said about pushing back <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo-->
<!--QuoteBegin--seriousham+Jan 19 2004, 11:55 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (seriousham @ Jan 19 2004, 11:55 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Personally i think ns is close to perfect balance. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> I dont think Marines' advantage (ranged weapon) is a problem. Just one thing I want is multiple respawn system for Aliens when they have 1 Hive only.
If only Gorge can build some kind of "Sub Hives" (only respawn) around active Hive, this really helps Aliens.
One thing to remember is the level of experience players have with the different types.
People who play counter-strike a lot will do better as marines than aliens simply because the abilities are so different. You don't often run along the ceiling in counter-strike, nor fly along the hall-way. Using a melee weapon is most often the choice of last resort instead of your only choice.
So trying to make any kind of comparison based on matches you've observed is pointless. Unlike counter-strike, the skill sets are so different you can't say that the team that kicked royal rump as marines is actually any good at playing as aliens, and vice versa.
Even within the teams, the skill sets vary. I'm a reasonable skulk, a damn-fine gorge, a so-so lerk, and a waste of resources as anything else. I also tend to be a so-so to poor marine.
Long range, will a marine own? Of course. It's supposed to. Smart aliens don't play at long range. Given cloaking, silence, wall-walking, flying, vents, etc, smart aliens generally don't need to play at long range either. (Though map design is crucial here.. what is it with mappers and their general refusal to have a decent space of wall or ceiling that a skulk can actually use? Door-ways suck.)
In the particular match you cite, I'd say that was a strategy failure more than anything else. They have elec'd nodes? You send a gorge-fade team to get rid of them and slow their teching while your own ramps up.
The only serious imbalance I see that can be attributed to the game rather than the players is the imbalance that happens as the team sizes increase. Then those group advancements marines get really hurt the slower teching aliens. RFK was supposed to address this some, but I'm not sure it's worked out that way.
The best game i ever played of NS 2.1 was one that had a)scs first hive and b) no RFK. It made both sides use alotof team work and planning. with out RFK things like parasiting and team work magicly spawned from the wood work. The game wasvery well balanced, focused almost entirly on node control, and resulted in every hive ebing built and destroyed at least once, and the rines relocating about 4 times. Hell of a game when it was over (aliens won after 3 hours of hard fighting)
on a side note-> Shirtgunz lvl3 + relocation to N corridor = i hate marines
Comments
Thank you for your valuable info, try again. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
Really? So you believe a more narrow skill corridor will attract more clan people than a fun game which suits more people?
NS' balance was <i><b>not</b></i> layed out for clan matches only, and NS itself is in no way supposed to be a solely clan oriented game. The idea is to reach an even field amongst experienced players (the fact that we have hardened veterans seeing a slight advantage for both teams is a good sign here), and a game as balanced as humanly possible in pubplay, where 'perfect balance' (an oxymoron in itself) is impossible to achieve due to the amount of arbitrary influences.
As for what ive seen so far? I was commander, think it was origin?... it was the one with nano double res. We completely owned them. The aliens just didn't get the teamwork toghether to kill us.
I have seen aliens on ns tanith camp marine spawn so well we couldnt get out even when our entire team rushed out the door. Five skulks would instantly drop on our heads..gg aliens.
In the end the aliens rely on being very close to the enemy en mass. Then the aliens win by letting all hell break loose so the marines dont have a chance.
In some maps this is alot more difficult than others. The one with the nano double res is a nightmare for aliens, with the biggest problem being the complete lack of cover. I would love to know if clanners ever win on this map as alien.
In ns in general if the aliens don't stage and win these ambushes its over. Is this really true in clan matches? Or does res control come into it? <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
That's ns_veil, and actually eR beat HAM on that map as aliens and marines in the cal-i finals, bad luck for HAM I'd say, but eR played extremely well..
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Play in a match don't watch before wanting balance changes based on competitive play.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Trust me, I've played much pugs and gathers, and especially on pugs, marines always seem to win.
NS' balance was <i><b>not</b></i> layed out for clan matches only, and NS itself is in no way supposed to be a solely clan oriented game. The idea is to reach an even field amongst experienced players (the fact that we have hardened veterans seeing a slight advantage for both teams is a good sign here), and a game as balanced as humanly possible in pubplay, where 'perfect balance' (an oxymoron in itself) is impossible to achieve due to the amount of arbitrary influences.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Who are the hardened veterans that say Marines have the advantage? I don't mean to be rude but Forlorn isn't quite the authority on top-level gameplay. Additionally, what founding do these claims have? eR is right: Aliens have a slight advantage shown by the frequency at which they win. Every tie I've seen in high clan gameplay has been a result of two alien wins. I have yet to see fact, not opinion, that support an argument otherwise.
Edit:
Pugs are not grounds for arguing game balance. Marines are not overpowered in NS, marines are overpowered in Pugs. Marines have an advantage in Pugs simply because of the orginization commanders bring to the team. It's much easier to organize your 6 Pug marines than it is to organize 6 Pug aliens. Perhaps I was a bit too hasty in my last post. I'll concede the fact that Marines may be overpowered given a random group of players. However, this is a technical imbalence- one that does not lie with the strength of a weapon or the ammount of res such and such costs. Regardless, the issue here is ultimately dependant on the players. And, in situations with equally skilled individuals (practiced with each other - not a pug situation), the commander advantage is moot.
I only read the opening "argument" and none of the posts inbetween so if this was stated or I am re-opening a already closed argument then I'm sorry <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo-->
Do people play the game on pugs? By golly, they do, so it <i>is</i> grounds for arguing game balance, case closed.
One may not be able to tweak the balance to its last extend in pubplay, but (relative) balance is just as big a requirement there as it is in clanplay.
NS' balance was <i><b>not</b></i> layed out for clan matches only, and NS itself is in no way supposed to be a solely clan oriented game. The idea is to reach an even field amongst experienced players (the fact that we have hardened veterans seeing a slight advantage for both teams is a good sign here), and a game as balanced as humanly possible in pubplay, where 'perfect balance' (an oxymoron in itself) is impossible to achieve due to the amount of arbitrary influences.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Who are the hardened veterans that say Marines have the advantage? I don't mean to be rude but Forlorn isn't quite the authority on top-level gameplay. Additionally, what founding do these claims have? eR is right: Aliens have a slight advantage shown by the frequency at which they win. Every tie I've seen in high clan gameplay has been a result of two alien wins. I have yet to see fact, not opinion, that support an argument otherwise. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
I'd say I have more authority on the subject of the team with a bigger advantage than you do, no offense.
Marines, at an extreamlly high level of skill, DO HOLD THE ADVANTAGE. Imagine a marine team with aimbots. It would be literally impossible to beat something like this. The alien team RELIES on the fact that in order for them to win, marines mess up, and can't shoot accurately enough to kill them. And it's true! It is extreamlly difficult to play as a good marine, especially since there are so many ways for aliens to make you mess up.
Such as attacking from opposite sides, hit and runs to deplete your ammo, killing your res, attacking your stuctures where you can't defend them, etc. etc...
However, if all marines were equipped with an aimbot, they would never ever ever lose. This is why, in high level gameplay, the closer regular human beings go towards perfect aiming, then the harder it is for aliens to win.
I'm not saying the game is balanced, I'm just telling you what I know. Aliens win more often because it's easier to win with them. However, marines most certainly hold the advantage if they are good enough to use it.
And to prove my little thesis here, you should see a lot more marine wins this time around in CAL, esp. at higher levels of play.
[B]<span style='font-size:14pt;line-height:100%'>Ambush, though it wont always work, its the most effective.</span>
Bunnyhoping, to get close on to the marine and bite him really fast, wont work if the marine can aim though.
Rush in groups with a gorge healspraying, will always work, but its a pretty bad alternative since this concentrates 3-4 players to one spot, and the marines will therefor gain map-control.
A skulks best chance to be totally sure to take down a marine is to get in behind him and bite.
I've been spectating some clan-matches via HLTV, and even if the aliens win in the end, its only because the marines rush to take down the hive didnt work. The can still loose even if they control big parts of the map, BUT its not *necessary* for them to do so.
Yesterday, I watched .BM take on Innox, and during the mid-game, .BM totally isolated themselves in their base with mines, so the fades couldnt come in and they just saved up a ton of res, teched thanks to the 3-4 eleced rts they had and rushed the hive, balanced?
The only real alternative for the kharaa is to get 2-3 fades really early that pairs up and takes down the marines res, probably with a backup from a gorge and some skulks (like Hamburg pretty often do, but you all know how vurnable aliens are to shotguns..
The solution:
The marines, shouldnt be able to go rambo on their own. You all know that, and this need to be adressed in some way. Id say: we have to make the skulks a little faster or give it a slight healthboost, but this may not be necessary. The lmg also should have some decreased accurucym, but the biggest fix that is needed is this:
either, the recoil should get TOTALLY screwed when a marine jump, OR they shouldnt be able to jump at all while firing (the best way of fixxing this?) so they cant "bunnyhop" backwards while shooting a skulk...
Another thing that should be tested, that really could have a major effect, is that the marine's view should "fly up in the roof" <!--emo&;)--><img src='http://www.natural-selection.org/forums/html/emoticons/wink.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='wink.gif'><!--endemo--> Nah, but the marine should loose tracking when he gets bit by a skulks (same thing that happens when a marine knife an alien, or when you get hit in the head in cs.)
Something needs to be done to the balance the way it is now, especially in big games.
Im sorry about the grammar / Spelling, but i dont speak english as mouthertounge. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Yes, this is what a skulk, and all aliens in general (barring onos) are SUPPOSED TO DO.......
and it is what they DID, before RFK was introduced
COME ON YOU ALL REMEMBER 1.04... camping a node ALL FREAKING GAME, simply because you denyed it to the marines, or camping above a door for 5 minutes until a marine walked thru and bit his head off. and it was better than RFK, which makes aliens ALL RAMBO's
I mean why not rush a group of marines.. even if you kill one of them before dying, thats on res closer to ONOSING, verses 1.04 where youd just skulk in the doors and inform your team as to what they were doing..... then organize an ambush at the next door or something.....
As Alien.. rush rush rush get kills so i can go fade or whatever
Marines... do better because they arent in direct control of thier res... so they dont go sugar crazy crack monkey trying to get it and sacrafice themselves for one measly kill....
Also the games were slower back then, everything was more planned out as comms had more time to think...
~Jason
Thank you for your valuable info, try again. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Really? So you believe a more narrow skill corridor will attract more clan people than a fun game which suits more people? <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
Yep, I believe that, because that's exactly what I said! Talk about the spiiiiiiin zone!
Oh wait, no it wasn't... try again. <!--emo&;)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/wink.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='wink.gif'><!--endemo-->
The only thing I really have to say to coris is.... you use a jump script? doesn't that take out the whole "human ability" thing. IMO scripts (such as your jump script or nade scripts in DoD) are useless, and shouldn't be allowed.
If you've played between all the different patches, you'd notice a change in the amount of wins aliens and marines would get.... one time i'd be mostly marines winning... then aliens.... then marines... and so on. This shows they are trying to make it balanced, not overpowering a side. <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo-->
The only thing I really have to say to coris is.... you use a jump script? doesn't that take out the whole "human ability" thing. IMO scripts (such as your jump script or nade scripts in DoD) are useless, and shouldn't be allowed.
If you've played between all the different patches, you'd notice a change in the amount of wins aliens and marines would get.... one time i'd be mostly marines winning... then aliens.... then marines... and so on. This shows they are trying to make it balanced, not overpowering a side. <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo--> <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
Nope, I jump with space, bound to +jump <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo-->
Well, I'd say the biggest difference in loss/win ratios was between 1.04 and 2.0, but now, the ratios are almost back to 1.04 (where the games where very balanced imo, there actually wasnt that hard to take down a HMG + JP:er if you had skill with leap <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo--> )
The problem, IMHO, seems to lie at the point in a game (idealy mid-game), where the victory could go to either team. when such an event occurs (I.E: one team hasn't been dominating the round from the start) I find that if the aliens start to dominate, the general chatter of marines has the air of "Ok, they got that point, but we can still push them back", and often enough, they do. But if the marines begin to dominate, the Aliens chatter goes to "OMG, you noobs. they won, everyone F4!", (I won't comment on if "noobs" caused this or not) providing the aliens didnt' loose due to the F4 thing, I find it rare that they can push back.
The thing is, it is hard to tell if this comes from the only the players' attitudes, or some actual balance issues wich have gone on for so long that the aliens find it pointless to continue at that point.
As for the arguments that skulks should be, well, skulking, and not charging down a hallway straight at the marines. I agree completely, but many maps have long, straight corridors, which offer few places to hide (without cloaking) yet I don't want them changed from that, because I already find on the hallways that do have small objects sticking out, I always get stuck on them while blinking as a fade (and while flying as a lerk, but the new flight model in 3.0 should change that).
And then there's the alien's OC. At best it may surprise and kill one marine once, but after that, he (or his team-mates, providing he wasnt ramboing) will just retreat around a corner and shoot at it's base.
are overpowered and should be nerfed.
Aliens win so damn many games it's beyond funny.
Personally i think ns is close to perfect balance.
And games that are not are this only because of a stack
by all the non-crappy players on one team.
Skulks, for better or worse, have always had lots of damage potential but very little direct combat ability. Experianced marines won't fall into the traps that the kharaa lay for them most of the time, engaging on their own terms, and the skulks really don't have much of a chance. Then it switches back with the fades: the marines have no control over where they engage, because the fades can hit them anywhere, soften them up, and let the skulks clean up the mess.
If it weren't for the incredible power of fades in good hands, I would expect the marines to win every clanmatch round.
<ul><li>5 alien res vs 5 marine res = marine win.
<li>Successful marine relocate to double res node + some turtling, tends to result in marine win - no alien siege, Onos vulnerable to HMGs when he has to climb through a bonsai base or turret farm.
<li>Early skilled fade can be a nightmare for marines, especially if he gets in the base while marines are out - hard to give out shotguns when IP + armory are covered by fade.
<li>Bonsai base with elec TF counters early skulk rush, but early shotgun rush is harder for aliens to counter (though will cost marines the game if it fails).</ul>
I don't find them really too serious though TBH.
First page 6th post from the bottom.
I think marines have the advantage of keeping buildings away from them or destroying a group set (wol) of buildings easier than the kharra team which can take longer then a few pings. -- basically what Trent said about pushing back <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo-->
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I dont think Marines' advantage (ranged weapon) is a problem.
Just one thing I want is multiple respawn system for Aliens when they have 1 Hive only.
If only Gorge can build some kind of "Sub Hives" (only respawn) around active Hive, this really helps Aliens.
Waiting 1 minute until next respawn really sucks.
People who play counter-strike a lot will do better as marines than aliens simply because the abilities are so different. You don't often run along the ceiling in counter-strike, nor fly along the hall-way. Using a melee weapon is most often the choice of last resort instead of your only choice.
So trying to make any kind of comparison based on matches you've observed is pointless. Unlike counter-strike, the skill sets are so different you can't say that the team that kicked royal rump as marines is actually any good at playing as aliens, and vice versa.
Even within the teams, the skill sets vary. I'm a reasonable skulk, a damn-fine gorge, a so-so lerk, and a waste of resources as anything else. I also tend to be a so-so to poor marine.
Long range, will a marine own? Of course. It's supposed to. Smart aliens don't play at long range. Given cloaking, silence, wall-walking, flying, vents, etc, smart aliens generally don't need to play at long range either. (Though map design is crucial here.. what is it with mappers and their general refusal to have a decent space of wall or ceiling that a skulk can actually use? Door-ways suck.)
In the particular match you cite, I'd say that was a strategy failure more than anything else. They have elec'd nodes? You send a gorge-fade team to get rid of them and slow their teching while your own ramps up.
The only serious imbalance I see that can be attributed to the game rather than the players is the imbalance that happens as the team sizes increase. Then those group advancements marines get really hurt the slower teching aliens. RFK was supposed to address this some, but I'm not sure it's worked out that way.
umm... sure it does ...
on a side note-> Shirtgunz lvl3 + relocation to N corridor = i hate marines