The Imbalance In Ns.
coris
Join Date: 2003-07-08 Member: 18034Members, Constellation
Join Date: 2003-07-08 Member: 18034Members, Constellation
<div class="IPBDescription">Dont deny it.</div> Hi everyone.
First of all I want to say that i already KNOW Im gonna get flamed for this <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif'><!--endemo-->
But this is the problem in the current version of NS (2.01) that causes imblance:
The marines are too good. Everyone knows it, deep down inside, but everyone also keeps denying it stating its balanced.
The problem really is the map-control, especially in clan-matches. A lone marine has no problem taking down 2-3 skulks rushing against him if he can aim. Myself, i can take down 2-3 carapace skulks rushing against me with 1 lmg and 1 pistolclip.
The reason why marines dominate so much is because skulks dont stand a chance on a long range, but also in mid and / or close range / melee combat marines still have a really good chance of taking down a skulk.
Long-range: the skulks is totally screwed.
Mid-range: The marine will kill the skulk if he have SOME aim at all.
Close-combat: The skulks will win if the marie isnt all that good, but if it is a good marine, then he will probably win. The only thing he has to do is some backwards jumping. GG skulk.
A skulks only real chance of actually beeing able to kill marines are these:
Ambush, though it wont always work, its the most effective.
Bunnyhoping, to get close on to the marine and bite him really fast, wont work if the marine can aim though.
Rush in groups with a gorge healspraying, will always work, but its a pretty bad alternative since this concentrates 3-4 players to one spot, and the marines will therefor gain map-control.
A skulks best chance to be totally sure to take down a marine is to get in behind him and bite.
I've been spectating some clan-matches via HLTV, and even if the aliens win in the end, its only because the marines rush to take down the hive didnt work. The can still loose even if they control big parts of the map, BUT its not *necessary* for them to do so.
Yesterday, I watched .BM take on Innox, and during the mid-game, .BM totally isolated themselves in their base with mines, so the fades couldnt come in and they just saved up a ton of res, teched thanks to the 3-4 eleced rts they had and rushed the hive, balanced?
The only real alternative for the kharaa is to get 2-3 fades really early that pairs up and takes down the marines res, probably with a backup from a gorge and some skulks (like Hamburg pretty often do, but you all know how vurnable aliens are to shotguns..
The solution:
The marines, shouldnt be able to go rambo on their own. You all know that, and this need to be adressed in some way. Id say: we have to make the skulks a little faster or give it a slight healthboost, but this may not be necessary. The lmg also should have some decreased accurucym, but the biggest fix that is needed is this:
either, the recoil should get TOTALLY screwed when a marine jump, OR they shouldnt be able to jump at all while firing (the best way of fixxing this?) so they cant "bunnyhop" backwards while shooting a skulk...
Another thing that should be tested, that really could have a major effect, is that the marine's view should "fly up in the roof" <!--emo&;)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/wink.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='wink.gif'><!--endemo--> Nah, but the marine should loose tracking when he gets bit by a skulks (same thing that happens when a marine knife an alien, or when you get hit in the head in cs.)
Something needs to be done to the balance the way it is now, especially in big games.
Im sorry about the grammar / Spelling, but i dont speak english as mouthertounge.
First of all I want to say that i already KNOW Im gonna get flamed for this <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif'><!--endemo-->
But this is the problem in the current version of NS (2.01) that causes imblance:
The marines are too good. Everyone knows it, deep down inside, but everyone also keeps denying it stating its balanced.
The problem really is the map-control, especially in clan-matches. A lone marine has no problem taking down 2-3 skulks rushing against him if he can aim. Myself, i can take down 2-3 carapace skulks rushing against me with 1 lmg and 1 pistolclip.
The reason why marines dominate so much is because skulks dont stand a chance on a long range, but also in mid and / or close range / melee combat marines still have a really good chance of taking down a skulk.
Long-range: the skulks is totally screwed.
Mid-range: The marine will kill the skulk if he have SOME aim at all.
Close-combat: The skulks will win if the marie isnt all that good, but if it is a good marine, then he will probably win. The only thing he has to do is some backwards jumping. GG skulk.
A skulks only real chance of actually beeing able to kill marines are these:
Ambush, though it wont always work, its the most effective.
Bunnyhoping, to get close on to the marine and bite him really fast, wont work if the marine can aim though.
Rush in groups with a gorge healspraying, will always work, but its a pretty bad alternative since this concentrates 3-4 players to one spot, and the marines will therefor gain map-control.
A skulks best chance to be totally sure to take down a marine is to get in behind him and bite.
I've been spectating some clan-matches via HLTV, and even if the aliens win in the end, its only because the marines rush to take down the hive didnt work. The can still loose even if they control big parts of the map, BUT its not *necessary* for them to do so.
Yesterday, I watched .BM take on Innox, and during the mid-game, .BM totally isolated themselves in their base with mines, so the fades couldnt come in and they just saved up a ton of res, teched thanks to the 3-4 eleced rts they had and rushed the hive, balanced?
The only real alternative for the kharaa is to get 2-3 fades really early that pairs up and takes down the marines res, probably with a backup from a gorge and some skulks (like Hamburg pretty often do, but you all know how vurnable aliens are to shotguns..
The solution:
The marines, shouldnt be able to go rambo on their own. You all know that, and this need to be adressed in some way. Id say: we have to make the skulks a little faster or give it a slight healthboost, but this may not be necessary. The lmg also should have some decreased accurucym, but the biggest fix that is needed is this:
either, the recoil should get TOTALLY screwed when a marine jump, OR they shouldnt be able to jump at all while firing (the best way of fixxing this?) so they cant "bunnyhop" backwards while shooting a skulk...
Another thing that should be tested, that really could have a major effect, is that the marine's view should "fly up in the roof" <!--emo&;)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/wink.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='wink.gif'><!--endemo--> Nah, but the marine should loose tracking when he gets bit by a skulks (same thing that happens when a marine knife an alien, or when you get hit in the head in cs.)
Something needs to be done to the balance the way it is now, especially in big games.
Im sorry about the grammar / Spelling, but i dont speak english as mouthertounge.
Comments
The problem with the game is the balance varies based on the server. Pub servers it is one way, clan matches it is the other. It just does not scale well across different skill levels. That is the problem, not overall balance.
It needs to be easier for the marines to play as a team, it needs to require less of the comm jumping around dropping medpacks, etc. Go ahead and say it is already easy enough anybody but a newbie comm is fine, really I don't care, cause you're wrong and until it is fixed NS will never take off, so dig your own grave. You're just another typical elitist forum-goer who can't step back and see the whole picture.
Latez.
i always thought the aliens were more powerful.. considering ive been in <b>many</b> games where the marines have kicked are us down to one hive, then we have forced them to retreat back and gained our hives back.. and this is in all different servers, in different countries..but sometimes ive been marines and just plain kicked there **** <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin.gif'><!--endemo-->
I dont really think a first level marine over powers to much, you have to remember, skulk is just your little beginner scout dude, if you have 2 other mates have troubles taking on , one basic marine, there is something wrong there O_o
It is fairly balanced.. which i didnt think so at first, until the more i played, it really all depends on the type of people who are behind them marines/aliens..
The problem with the game is the balance varies based on the server. Pub servers it is one way, clan matches it is the other. It just does not scale well across different skill levels. That is the problem, not overall balance.
It needs to be easier for the marines to play as a team, it needs to require less of the comm jumping around dropping medpacks, etc. Go ahead and say it is already easy enough anybody but a newbie comm is fine, really I don't care, cause you're wrong and until it is fixed NS will never take off, so dig your own grave. You're just another typical elitist forum-goer who can't step back and see the whole picture.
Latez. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
The thing that you have to understand is that there is NO way ns is going to even be able to compete with other mods like CS, since the "elite" people probably will get tired since they really can't compete with eachother.
Just think about it, CS would be nothing without its huge competative clanningcommunity...
Maybe the "right" way to achieve balance is to make mp_tournamentmode 1 totally different from "normal" ns?!
They might make a stand alone version or somethig
i always thought the aliens were more powerful.. considering ive been in <b>many</b> games where the marines have kicked are us down to one hive, then we have forced them to retreat back and gained our hives back.. and this is in all different servers, in different countries..but sometimes ive been marines and just plain kicked there **** <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin.gif'><!--endemo-->
I dont really think a first level marine over powers to much, you have to remember, skulk is just your little beginner scout dude, if you have 2 other mates have troubles taking on , one basic marine, there is something wrong there O_o
It is fairly balanced.. which i didnt think so at first, until the more i played, it really all depends on the type of people who are behind them marines/aliens.. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
Then i think you should read what I have to say..
The thing is this;
it actually takes some time to save enough res to evolve as kharaa, and if you die, you will have to start all over again.
As a marine though, the upgrades are pretty cheap, applies for the whole team and you keep them when you die.
Since a good marine will kill a good skulk in the beginning of the game, the skulk will stay pretty much the same (well, carapce, but it doesnt make THAT much of a difference) while the marines will start teching and pwn the skulks ****, especially endgame when both teams have reached the top of their techtree, the marines will own the aliens bad...
They might make a stand alone version or somethig <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
I don't see what that's got to do with this thread. And i wouldn't say NS is big right now, it has been alot bigger. It was bigger in 1.04 and peaked in 2.0. From then on the imbalances 2.0 scared people away before 2.01 was released. I hope 3.0 comes in time for some good PR.
The problem with the game is the balance varies based on the server. Pub servers it is one way, clan matches it is the other. It just does not scale well across different skill levels. That is the problem, not overall balance.
It needs to be easier for the marines to play as a team, it needs to require less of the comm jumping around dropping medpacks, etc. Go ahead and say it is already easy enough anybody but a newbie comm is fine, really I don't care, cause you're wrong and until it is fixed NS will never take off, so dig your own grave. You're just another typical elitist forum-goer who can't step back and see the whole picture.
Latez. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
The thing that you have to understand is that there is NO way ns is going to even be able to compete with other mods like CS, since the "elite" people probably will get tired since they really can't compete with eachother.
Just think about it, CS would be nothing without its huge competative clanningcommunity...
Maybe the "right" way to achieve balance is to make mp_tournamentmode 1 totally different from "normal" ns?! <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
he mentiond that, so i replyed
The problem is that a lone marine pretty easy can take down a carap'd bunnyhoping skulk, especially if the skulk isnt using a +3jumps script (like me)
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> cs is boring now, it had valve backing it, no wonder it got so populer.. NS will move forward, and its only NOW just getting bigger, considering how big it is already, plys the creaters have there own game company
They might make a stand alone version or somethig <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
This isnt about if cs is boring or not, cs is a great example on a REALLY balanced game (at least according to me) with a really huge clan-community. CS was also extremly big even before valve supported it and made it into a retail game.
Think what you wish about cs, I played cs for about 2 years, was really good and my clan actually came pretty far. Then i got tired and started playing NS again (played 1.0 and 1.04 a lot..)..
What map?
And I also bet that the marines where newbies (or the skulks super-|33t), right?
experienced aliens vs experienced marine = fair game
Other than this, the team with the most experience should win...
and on the other hand, i've been able to kill groups of marines with aid from one or two other skulks, even heavies can be taken down. sense+cloaking is imo the best skulk upgrade, it lets a skulk do what it does best, sneak, ambush, kill.. coupled with regen you can get in, kill maybe one guy, get out with a couple of leaps, regen, and repeat
and on the other hand, i've been able to kill groups of marines with aid from one or two other skulks, even heavies can be taken down. sense+cloaking is imo the best skulk upgrade, it lets a skulk do what it does best, sneak, ambush, kill.. coupled with regen you can get in, kill maybe one guy, get out with a couple of leaps, regen, and repeat <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
The thing is that an avarage player can easily kill a really good ubah skulk, but not the other way around (an avarage player cant kill a ?bahmarine.)
NS seems balanced to me.
If you have near perfect aim, you will not lose.
Seriously, the entire marine game is one little thing:
- NOT SCREWING UP
If you never mess up, or if you only mess up a little here and there, you will never lose as marines.
Of course, this creates some interesting standpoints for the aliens, as how can you make the marines most likely to mess up?
I'd say the fact that marines have this type of gameplay is a good thing overall, and not a bad thing.
I'd like to have some '|33t' player top comment, for example, i saw chamois reading it...
Another possible way is to slightly ajust the speed of run that the skulks has, closing the distance betweeen marine and skulk is the key factor in the outcome of the engagement between the two. Perhaps have a run boost key that will allow the skulk to burst run at greater cost to his/her energy.
As for what ive seen so far? I was commander, think it was origin?... it was the one with nano double res. We completely owned them. The aliens just didn't get the teamwork toghether to kill us.
I have seen aliens on ns tanith camp marine spawn so well we couldnt get out even when our entire team rushed out the door. Five skulks would instantly drop on our heads..gg aliens.
In the end the aliens rely on being very close to the enemy en mass. Then the aliens win by letting all hell break loose so the marines dont have a chance.
In some maps this is alot more difficult than others. The one with the nano double res is a nightmare for aliens, with the biggest problem being the complete lack of cover. I would love to know if clanners ever win on this map as alien.
In ns in general if the aliens don't stage and win these ambushes its over. Is this really true in clan matches? Or does res control come into it?
I personally hate arguments like that. Do you think clans form out of thin air or do you think clans are formed by people who find NS fun when they tried it during some pubs? If you make a game to be balanced only within a very narrow corridor of skill, your game simply... SUCK, and WILL scare away people.
I personally hate arguments like that. Do you think clans form out of thin air or do you think clans are formed by people who find NS fun when they tried it during some pubs? If you make a game to be balanced only within a very narrow corridor of skill, your game simply... SUCK, and WILL scare away people. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
Wrong, clans form when people play it on pubs and see tons of potential for clan play, and then form clans.
Thank you for your valuable info, try again.