Fade/onos Paradox
Azrael2709
Join Date: 2003-05-27 Member: 16760Members
Join Date: 2003-05-27 Member: 16760Members
<div class="IPBDescription">I can't figure it out.</div> I have come to a startling realization. When I'm the marine, it takes years to kill a fade or an onos. But when I'm the fade or onos, I die very very fast. I don't get it =(. With fade, I go carapace/adrenaline and when I'm onos I go regeneration and celerity.
Comments
Theres your problem right there. Dont get cara, get regen for fade. And use blink, to not get hurt, and then go in the for kill. Make the marine waste ammo is the best way to not die. Practice all the times helps to.
Onos arent tanks anymore so you have to be cautious with them as well. Watch out for mine traps and use stomp. Dont get greedy by the time you have onos they will have either hmg's, lvl3 weps or quite frequently both. Dont waste your time trying to devour la/lmg, in fact if your not good at it dont even try as I've seen way too many onos die while trying to devour. The biggest problem with killing an onos is knowing where they take damage. When shooting from directly in front or behind you shouldnt have any problems (unless you aim too high in front). From the side the actually area is very small though its only the rear haunches that will take damage. I would suggest trying it out with a friend on a server to get the feel for it. However your onos problems should change with the next version as the hitboxes are fixed and their health and armor are raised so you will die just as easily as everyone else.
Onos you probably want adren so you can spam stomp, which will keep you alive most of the time.
A reloading marine with aliens on his back=a dead marine. Keep that in mind.
You can also take on hmgers, even heavies when reloading.
I think fades are best, though, not for taking on marines, but for killing buildings and being a pain in the arse. Take down those electrified rts your skulk buddies can't handle. Take down those turret farms holding a hive (stand on the pg to block it if you can, and swipe at the tf. Then kill the pg. Or if you can't do both, take down the pg and then the tf).
And ALWAYS ALWAYS run from a force you can't handle. If three marines catch you from a distance, blink away. Bring the fight TO them. And never move in a straight line. No matter how fast you are, if you head straight towards them, you're easy to hit.
Onos... just be stomp happy. Devour, aim using the tip of the horn.
And lastly, watch your health and armor. RUN when your armor gets low, 100 health with now armor goes very fast!! As an onos, run backwards, dropping stomps while you go.
1. 50 extra armor in fade's case means that you will die while often having around 50-60 armor. (250/100 vs 250/150, and usually even 100 armor isn't all used up if you die after entering combat with full health and armor)
2. Your regeneration rate is significantly slower then reg fade's (20 (meta)vs ~27hp (regen) per tick, you can't regenerate while blinking/fighting). For those that didn't know, meta cancels regen.
This means less fighting and more regenerating - biggest fade nerf for taking cara.
3. Skillful marines WILL catch you with your pants down (read: when you're useing meta). Meta is far more loud then regen and it's screaming "come and get me" at sg-carrying rines.
4. You become heavily dependant on second hive. You cannot fade until second hive is up and you lose self-healing ability if second hive goes down.
Cara does give you a little more damage resistance via 15% additional absosrbance. This will have little matter in the heat of the battle though, as good fades are the champions of blinking, meaning that if you're taking massive damage, you're doing something wrong. Also regen makes up for lack of armor by regenerating you even while you're fighting, so the longer you stay in battle (read: blinking around making rines waste their ammo on walls) the less viable cara gets.
Since fade is my primary kharaa class, I did a lot of researching for various upgrade usage - and even with late game hmg/gl/sg and lvl3 weapons regen will keep you alive significantly better then cara - that is a simple statistic for me.
But usally I fight Sgers who happen to shoot the second you sweep and not blink (buildings wasting).
yet I agree metab is pretty slow and you should think hard about what to pick. If ya in dubt, pick regen.
Ow.. always nice to wait for a SGer to use 8 shots. But there ppl, like me, who NEVER fire 8 shots. I keep atleast 2 spare in my shotty while reloading just for such overactive kharaa.
Second, you may spend more time metaing, but with the armour you can spend a bit more time in front of the enemy, and perhaps even suffer a little more damage.
Thirdly, virtually every fade in the world is dependent on second hive as it gives you adren, the best upgrade in the world. If you are lucky and get moves as your first chamber, all is well, but 90% of the time you're getting DCs and that means you will ALWAYS be relying on 2nd hive to give you a boost.
Secondly, DCs allow you to heal just as good as metaing, and assuming you're not pursued you can blink to one very quickly, even without adren.
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"if you're taking massive damage, you're doing something wrong"
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Or marines are getting lucky, or you're in an almighty ruck for a chokepoint and end up clipping on everyone and everything.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Second, you may spend more time metaing, but with the armour you can spend a bit more time in front of the enemy, and perhaps even suffer a little more damage.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->This is just plain wrong. Armor allows you to take little extra damage (around 15%). After 3 ticks regen gives you more health then those 15%, becoming more useful. In short, as I said, regen is <i>more useful in long battles</i> while cara is more useful then regen only in <i>short battles with high-powered weaponry</i>.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Thirdly, virtually every fade in the world is dependent on second hive as it gives you adren, the best upgrade in the world. If you are lucky and get moves as your first chamber, all is well, but 90% of the time you're getting DCs and that means you will ALWAYS be relying on 2nd hive to give you a boost.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->Highly incorrect. Any vet or clanner will tell you that if you don't have at least one fade around the same time as the second hive is started, you've almost certainly lost against a decent marine team. Period. And there's never any guarantee that rines won't pull an sg rush on that hive tearing it down before you get there to save it.
Adren is <i>useful</i> for fade, but it's not anywhere nearly as important as regen. You can still blink and slash, you just have to be more skillful about regulating the usage of your adrenaline. The "adren upgrade is a must for a fade" means that you've never gone fade when it's most important for a team to have one.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Secondly, DCs allow you to heal just as good as metaing, and assuming you're not pursued you can blink to one very quickly, even without adren.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
DC heals 10 hp every tick and is cumulative with both regen and meta. Not to mention that they require a gorg to spend 10 res per chamber on a place where fade can constantly use it (and fade is supposed to be most mobile unit on the map, so that's simply not possible). Or you can blink all the way back, wasting a lot of time. And time is something you never have enough of in this mod.
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"if you're taking massive damage, you're doing something wrong"
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Or marines are getting lucky, or you're in an almighty ruck for a chokepoint and end up clipping on everyone and everything.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->While ****-****-luck is unavoidable at times (albeit VERY rare), madly charging a choke with a fade? Does "you're doing something wrong" ring any bells? <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif'><!--endemo--> Fade isn't a tank to hold or charge chokes, fade is the type to thin out rine lines before they ever get to your choke of to kill rines one by one before going after buildings in theirs. And that doesn't require you to take any massive damage (in fact, charging enemy chokes, unless they're a huge turretfarm for a choke, is usually easier then charging field rines, as you can use their buildigs for cover).
over 80% of deaths for good fades for what I saw happen because they
#1 Accidentally blink into a large group of rines (or small group of shotgunners) and decide to stay and fight, (judge power and/or skill of particular group incorrectly during first encounter)
#2 mine traps
And the rest are for laming around, like imagining that they are oni and not fades (read: I have 100 res, so I'm gonna die and take as many of you with me as I can before going onos) <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin.gif'><!--endemo-->
- If you haven't bound a key to 'lastinv', do it. This helps really (I mean REALLY) much. Be sure to have it close to your movement keys. I use Q for lastinv, and WASD for movement.
- I always take regen. You can mix regen with meta if you time the meta right after the regen tick.
- When you spawn as a fade, (you'll have meta equipped I think, even if you don't have 2 hives) select Swipe and then Blink. Press lastinv-button to switch to Swipe, and then again to switch back to Blink. Now, you can switch to Swipe mid-air, swipe a marine then click again and blink away.
- When blinking, aim a bit above the area you wanna go to, then jump and lightly tap your blink key. You'll use as little energy as possible while still moving forward very quickly, due to no air friction.
- Use Blink in battle too. I see several fades blinking into battle, switching to Swipe and running around desperately trying to hit the marine. Blink around them, above them, confuse them! Then when they least expect it, cut them into nice Marine Filé.
- Adrenaline is a good choice for a fade, especially if you're gonna Acid Rocket (although you've probably won by now). This helps if you happen to use too much energy to blink and you're facing an SG/LA marine.
- Remember, fades can use vents too! Hold your crouch key and aim for the vent and Blink into it. Might take a few tries, but it usually works.
That's about all.
Most people do this, but personally I prefer to have hud_fastswitch 1 on instead, and just use 1 and 2 - it's not much farther to reach than Q. This way you always know what you'll be switching to.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->- Use Blink in battle too. I see several fades blinking into battle, switching to Swipe and running around desperately trying to hit the marine. Blink around them, above them, confuse them! Then when they least expect it, cut them into nice Marine Filé.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Here's a situation where celerity is a decent alternative to adren - you can actually catch a marine without blinking. I think it's most useful when blinking into the middle of 3 LMGers. Adren is probably more useful overall, but if you've tried it and it's not your style, try celerity for a change.
So you hide that far, which takes time. When regenerating, you just blink behind a corner and keep blink selected so you can continue retreating instatnly if nessesary.
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Hiding up a vent is not "far", we're talking about BLINK USING FADES. "far" just does NOT apply. Secondly, I could blink around a corner and STILL get caught by marines. Whether regenning or metaing, you want to be in a vent out of the marines way, so you don't get noobed by running into a sger.
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This is just plain wrong. Armor allows you to take little extra damage (around 15%). After 3 ticks regen gives you more health then those 15%, becoming more useful. In short, as I said, regen is more useful in long battles while cara is more useful then regen only in short battles with high-powered weaponry.
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And given the preponderance of shotties when a fade is spotted, you WILL be wanting that carapace. Interesting how you say regen is useful in long battles, but you call rucking over a choke point "the wrong thing". Hypocritical much?
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Highly incorrect. Any vet or clanner will tell you that if you don't have at least one fade around the same time as the second hive is started, you've almost certainly lost against a decent marine team. Period. And there's never any guarantee that rines won't pull an sg rush on that hive tearing it down before you get there to save it.
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Any vet or clanner can also spam a server by getting his 2 uberl33t friends to go gorge and drop DCs all over the hive exits, omglololololololoneoneeleven. Means nothing to me. Additionally, you DO NOT GET THE MOST OUT OF A FADE UNTIL TWO HIVES. Period. While its nice to have one at first hive, its going to get its scaly little backside owned unless second hive appears smartly and hands out some upgrades.
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Adren is useful for fade, but it's not anywhere nearly as important as regen. You can still blink and slash, you just have to be more skillful about regulating the usage of your adrenaline. The "adren upgrade is a must for a fade" means that you've never gone fade when it's most important for a team to have one.
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"skillful" about regulating use? Don't make me laugh. Adren allows virtually limitless hit and run potential, combined with the ability to take a lucky hit and get out ALIVE. Skill means absolute jack when someone hits the jackpot and puts a shotgun in your face. I prefer to keep as much res as possible, so staying alive is important to me and thusly why I prefer something that'll allow me to walk away from a shotgun as opposed to leaving my bodyparts regenerating on the floor.
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Not to mention that they require a gorg to spend 10 res per chamber on a place where fade can constantly use it (and fade is supposed to be most mobile unit on the map, so that's simply not possible).
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What.... the.. hell??? You can drop a DC anywhere on the map and a fade can use it, it IS the most mobile unit so it IS VERY MUCH POSSIBLE. Even an idiot gorge can place a DC somewhere you can use it, and blinking "all the way back" takes virtually no time at all, unless you're blinking right back to a hive, and even then its faster than getting dead.
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madly charging a choke with a fade? Does "you're doing something wrong" ring any bells? Fade isn't a tank to hold or charge chokes, fade is the type to thin out rine lines before they ever get to your choke of to kill rines one by one before going after buildings in theirs.
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A fade is a multipurpose tool. If there's a ruck for a key chokepoint, it is your JOB to get there and defend or at the very least get somewhere else and push the advantage. Hiding 2 corridors away while regenning because "dudezor I am teh assassinatorz, lure them 2 me 4 teh leets killage" won't cut much slack with the team.
A competent fade can blink alongside some skulks and thoroughly rape up some marines, then blink back out for a spot of healing while the skulks mop up. This gets the skulks rfk and makes them more productive. It also weakens the marine resolve and they won't know where to shoot. Thanks to cara, you'll be able to take meaty hit before having to retreat, by which point the marines are half dead and almost certainly having to reload.
TBH I don't see regen being much of an advantage except for unusually large maps where for some reason noone has dropped any DCs, nor are they operating as a team. But in that situation, I suppose you can take cold comfort in being totally independent on a team of halfwits.
I ahve metab, can blink to hives and I agree the extra armor DOES help. Especially shotties.
On the contrary. As I see it, regeneration provides great and numerous benefits, whereas carapace provides but a single minor one. Regeneration allows a Fade to regenerate while in the midst of combat. In all but the shortest battles its boost to durability far exceeds that of carapace. It also greatly reduces the amount of time spent out of the battle, healing. Compare these benefits to the only benefit of carapace, which is to allow a Fade to survive if it sustains severe damage in a very short amount of time; essentially, a buffer against mistakes.
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Regeneration allows a Fade to regenerate while in the midst of combat.
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Of little use when you take a shotty to the face. Cara can mean the difference between life and death. Regen is for prolonged combat with no time to meta, IMO. Since I'm hitting and running, there's always time for a quick bit of metaspam before blinking to the next objective.
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In all but the shortest battles its boost to durability far exceeds that of carapace.
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Depends very much on the weapons involved. I'd rather be half alive and in a position for quick metaing in a vent rather than dead and waiting to re-evolve.
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It also greatly reduces the amount of time spent out of the battle, healing.
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True, and something which regen has the edge on. However, with cara I can live long enough to need to regen as opposed to taking a lucky shot and being an interesting stain.
Carapace saves against luck, shotguns, clipping, and yes, even mistakes - it allows the Fade to be a true shock-assault unit. Regen is quite nice against low level marines but at the higher levels I consider cara to be much more important, and thus I would use it all the time, so as to never fall into the trap of getting killed while mistakenly thinking I had carapace.
I see more onos go down to concentrated lmg fire than any other weapon in the game. Level 3 upgraded ammunition really does tear through the onos. I pity the onos at the end of a long corridor and two LA LMG marines in 3.0 <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo-->
In other words you can stay in combat for ~1/3 of the time that regen fade does due to your much longer regeneration periods and need to run away much further before regenerating. No offense, but your fade isn't worth half of regen fade to the team, even if he dies sooner then you do.
And one hive fades are one of the primary keys to kharaa victory. Early on you won't have adren, but you won't meet any heavily upgraded marines either. Sure, it does take more skill to use fade with limited adrenaline regeneration rate you get with default fade, but after mastering that you will find survivng with early 1 hive regen fade much easier then later on with adren/regen fade and having to face groups armed with sgs.
Cara fade has to retreat from combat to get healing.
While regen fade never retreats and stays in combat until every marine is death and the ip's destroyd <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif'><!--endemo-->
tbh, regen, adren fade is GOD.
In other words you can stay in combat for ~1/3 of the time that regen fade does due to your much longer regeneration periods and need to run away much further before regenerating. No offense, but your fade isn't worth half of regen fade to the team, even if he dies sooner then you do.
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Which goes entirely against what you stated earlier. Pick a side and stick to it. Fades aren't meant to ruck about, they do it as a last resort. Carapace allows you to take a lot of punishment in a short time, whereas regen will leave you dead. Second, his regeneration periods are not much longer, because meta is still pretty sweet. It also leaves you in the area as an advance scout so you can see how the marines react to some of their boys getting wiped.
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will find survivng with early 1 hive regen fade much easier then later on with adren/regen fade and having to face groups armed with sgs.
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It easy AS IS. The only problems occur when sgs start rolling in. And in that situation, which happens very quickly after fades appear, you will begin to NEED carapace, because regen will be of absolutely no benefit.
Make no mistake, regen is great for earlygame because there's very little that can realistically harm you, and you can smash up elec rts with ease. However, in the mid to end game situation, regeneration means little because most weaponry will be killing you very very very quickly. Thus, carapace becomes the wiser choice, because it offers the greater chance of survival.
Additionally, regen fade DOES have to retreat - blinking around and swiping like a fool because you think you're immortal with regen is what gets fades killed. Shotgun > regen fade.
its indeed very foolish to attack a shotgunner head-on while he's got his eye on you.
just keep on dodging with blink. (circle around him), if u get them confused, atck them. if they start to ignore u, atack him. if they reloading, attack him. if they retreat or start to build something, atck him.
its really not that hard.
In other words you can stay in combat for ~1/3 of the time that regen fade does due to your much longer regeneration periods and need to run away much further before regenerating. No offense, but your fade isn't worth half of regen fade to the team, even if he dies sooner then you do.
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Which goes entirely against what you stated earlier. Pick a side and stick to it. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Err... WTH are you talking about? I'm not "picking sides" I'm merely pointing out that your choice renders fade severely less effective then mine. There are no "sides" to this, at least not in my eyes.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Fades aren't meant to ruck about, they do it as a last resort. Carapace allows you to take a lot of punishment in a short time, whereas regen will leave you dead.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
If you're taking massive damage from low level shotguners, you are not playing fade is it is supposed to be played. Nothing more I can say about that, since I haven't seen your play style, but most good fades will agree with me on this point. Fade is the class that shouldn't take much damage at all early on, due to blink. Cara is nothing but a "mistake buffer" allowing you to sometimes survive your own stupidity where regen wouldn't at the cost of severely dropped combat efficiency. Good players make few mistakes, and hence pick regen to have optimal combat efficiency rather then a slightly increased mistake buffer. It's as simple as that.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Second, his regeneration periods are not much longer, because meta is still pretty sweet. It also leaves you in the area as an advance scout so you can see how the marines react to some of their boys getting wiped.
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1. Meta is 20 vs 3 dc regen that is 27. That's 35% faster for regen.
2. Meta will not regenerate you while you're blinking/slashing - which is about 1/3-1/2 of regen fades regeneration time.
Hence the time I suggested (1/3-1/2 of efficiency) is quite a positive estimate for a very skilled meta user who gets really lucky with no ambushes on him while he is regenerating. In reality it'll likely be 1/4-1/3. Not to mention that meta user does have to retreat to heal even minor (but contantly hitting) electrification damage (no stealthy base assaults to take out advanced armory once it's complete - consider the fade's single most powerful strategic asset torn out).
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--><!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->You will find survivng with early 1 hive regen fade much easier then later on with adren/regen fade and having to face groups armed with sgs. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
It easy AS IS. The only problems occur when sgs start rolling in. And in that situation, which happens very quickly after fades appear, you will begin to NEED carapace, because regen will be of absolutely no benefit.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
First of all, carapace is NOT a magical god mode. Three point blank shots from SG lvl0-1 will kill either regen of cara fade just the same. It's from lvl2 up that the potential danger of getting killed in 2 shots even arises, and by that time you will have the hive and adren upgrade. (or rines have skipped armor upgrade - in which case they are skulk/fade fodder, shotguns or not, skillful or not). And as it was said before, when meeting lmg'ers best tactic is to blink around them for ~5 seconds (which is the "magical threshold" that makes regen regenerate more hp then extra armor that cara offers) until their lmg clips run dry, then go berserk on them. this isn't a very viable tactic with cara, as your hp is not regenerated in combat. This severely limits fades usefulness in field battle, as you cannot use fade as a diversion for enemy fire as effectively as with regen while skulks move in.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Make no mistake, regen is great for earlygame because there's very little that can realistically harm you, and you can smash up elec rts with ease. However, in the mid to end game situation, regeneration means little because most weaponry will be killing you very very very quickly. Thus, carapace becomes the wiser choice, because it offers the greater chance of survival.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
You do realize that your suggestion can be logically taken as "I won't go fade until 3rd hive, because then I get acid rocket and own everyone"? The fact that you lack skill to play fade without certain upgrade simply suggests your lack of experience with this class in particular. I suggest you give it a shot, you might actually learn to like it.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Additionally, regen fade DOES have to retreat - blinking around and swiping like a fool because you think you're immortal with regen is what gets fades killed. Shotgun > regen fade.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Shotgun > any fade when in groups, period. Cara merely allows you better chances of survival first 5 seconds into the combat (and if you smash yourself head first into a sg group, you're a noob fade, as that is suicide and you really will need cara AND a miracle to survive). You drain their clips blinking around until either skulks do their job from behind, or simply get on shotgunners nerves until their clips run dry or nearly dry. Of course if you play against crackshot shotgun rambos, cara <i>might</i> be more viable then regen as you would make a mad dash into the guy to kill him ASAP. It will still penalize you with severely longer regeneration time and regen fade would have done the same, it would have just taken some more skill to do more zigzag blinking to avoid being hit. Of course, crackshot sg rambos are about as common as skilled carapace battle gorges <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.natural-selection.org/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin.gif'><!--endemo-->
Do we really need to continue this? I really hate it how discussion of certain upgrade suddenly gets "sides". We're discussing the best upgrade ffs, try both upgrades first then try an actually neutral judgement on which one is better for your team and for you. I've done a lot of trying on adapting carapace fade into my playing style, and even with 3 hive all upgrades and ton of dc's endgame fade, I still prefer regen as it allows me more combat eficiency in the enemy territory (even with lvl3 weaponry it's pretty useless if it doesn't score hits). It does take slightly more skill to stay alive, but that's what experience is for.
"WTH are you talking about? I'm not "picking sides" I'm merely pointing out that your choice renders fade severely less effective then mine. There are no "sides" to this, at least not in my eyes."
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But there are sides. For example, in one statement you claim that being in a long ruck is NOT what fades are for. Then, you turn around and plead a case for regen being GOOD for long rucks. This is where you put yourself in an untenable position.
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If you're taking massive damage from low level shotguners, you are not playing fade is it is supposed to be played.
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Rubbish. Anyone can get hit by a shotty, its a matter of skill and luck on both sides. Being an uberleetfadezor means little when you clip yourself on a wall and get shotgunned into convenient bitesize pieces. And "picking your targets" is all very well, but there will ALWAYS be situations where they find you first, or where their reinforcements arrive just in time to nick you with enough shotgun fire to kill you.
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Cara is nothing but a "mistake buffer" allowing you to sometimes survive your own stupidity where regen wouldn't at the cost of severely dropped combat efficiency.
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Again, ridiculous. You don't call luck or facing skilled players a "mistake". Likewise going in to kill marines and catching a lucky (or unlucky as it were) shotgun blast is nothing to do with being a bad fade player.
Furthermore, REGEN IS POINTLESS AGAINST SHOTGUNS, and since shotguns are what fades will end up facing 90% of the time, it stands to reason that carapace will be the more rewarding upgrade if you intend to kill the enemy.
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1. Meta is 20 vs 3 dc regen that is 27. That's 35% faster for regen.
2. Meta will not regenerate you while you're blinking/slashing - which is about 1/3-1/2 of regen fades regeneration time.
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Regen will not heal you when you are dead. VS shotgunner marines, the regen fade has more chance of being dead compared to the carapace fade. As a carapace fade, you can take major hits, survive, and heal. As regen fade, you can take minor hits, but with shotguns that will rarely be the case. 35% faster is not a crippling amount either, especially when you take into account lurking for more targets or doing some scouting.
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"a very skilled meta user who gets really lucky with no ambushes on him while he is regenerating."
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Also known as blinking into a vent, a rather simplistic and obvious response which low level marines cannot counter.
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Not to mention that meta user does have to retreat to heal even minor (but contantly hitting) electrification damage (no stealthy base assaults to take out advanced armory once it's complete - consider the fade's single most powerful strategic asset torn out).
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IMHO a fade is too useful to relegate to stealth base assaults. Thats the job for disposable skulks. Putting fades in bases only encourages extreme laming defense measures, thus making base attacks unfeasible for anything smaller than a fade. Base attacks with a lone skulk will rarely provoke and extreme marine response, which means you can do an awful lot more damage and STILL only cost 2-6 res when you die.
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First of all, carapace is NOT a magical god mode.
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Funny I recall saying much the same about regen.
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Three point blank shots from SG lvl0-1 will kill either regen of cara fade just the same. It's from lvl2 up that the potential danger of getting killed in 2 shots even arises, and by that time you will have the hive and adren upgrade. (or rines have skipped armor upgrade - in which case they are skulk/fade fodder, shotguns or not, skillful or not).
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Three point blank shots is a total screw up. Not even in the same class as taking a lucky blast from a marine, so its a pretty pointless comparison.
By the way, we're discussing shotgun blasts, so talk of facing LMGers is largely irrelevant. LMGers need a sustained burst on target - something which just won't happen if you're a competent fade. Why? Because you should be blinking like mad AND you should have ambushed them, and thus shouldn't even need to avoid fire because they're caught flat footed.
The cara fade isn't limited unless he plans to sit around in LMG fire, which to me is a pretty dumb thing to do. Cara allows realistic attacks on shotgun marines and makes a shock assault much more secure. You blitz in, do the damage, blink out and then spam meta while watching for the marine response. There should be no need for blinking around the marines while regenning furiously.
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as you cannot use fade as a diversion for enemy fire as effectively as with regen while skulks move in.
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Yes you can, you just need to take a bit more care. And additionally, you can realistically draw shotgun fire, as opposed to a regen fade who will quite simply die. Besides, blinking like a maniac should mean you take very little to no damage.
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Make no mistake, regen is great for earlygame because there's very little that can realistically harm you, and you can smash up elec rts with ease. However, in the mid to end game situation, regeneration means little because most weaponry will be killing you very very very quickly. Thus, carapace becomes the wiser choice, because it offers the greater chance of survival.
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You do realize that your suggestion can be logically taken as "I won't go fade until 3rd hive, because then I get acid rocket and own everyone"?
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I don't see any mention of acid rocket, how acid rocket owns anything marine, or indeed why you'd want to wait til third hive. So quite honestly no I don't realise how my suggestion can "logically" be taken that way. Well, thats not true, I do realise it could be "logically" taken that way if you were mentally ill. But I'm working to the assumption that neither of us is mentally ill?
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The fact that you lack skill to play fade without certain upgrade simply suggests your lack of experience with this class in particular. I suggest you give it a shot, you might actually learn to like it.
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I assume you are referring to yourself and regeneration? I don't see where I've stated I refuse to play fade without certain upgrades. Perhaps I was wrong in my earlier statement and you ARE in fact mentally ill?
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Shotgun > any fade when in groups, period. Cara merely allows you better chances of survival first 5 seconds into the combat (and if you smash yourself head first into a sg group, you're a noob fade, as that is suicide and you really will need cara AND a miracle to survive).
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So, in fact, I was right. The statement sg > regen fade stands unshaken. Cara allows a better chance of survival IF YOU ARE UNLUCKY ENOUGH TO GET HIT, and one must always take into account the possibility of taking a lucky shot. Going regen fade and rushing to the front line just to get wasted by a lucky sger has nothing to do with being a "noob", its to do with luck.... possibly with being an idiot if you happened to know they all have shotguns in the first place.
Cara allows a better chance against unexpected high damage, something which is part and parcel of serious combat. Poopoo happens, and when it does you can be assured that being a "leet fade wiht teh regenzor" will mean absolutely squat. At least a half dead cara fade can heal up in a matter of seconds, whereas a dead regen fade will NOT be back for a considerable length of time.
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Do we really need to continue this? I really hate it how discussion of certain upgrade suddenly gets "sides".
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I really hate it when people decide the only way to debate something is to claim they are more skilled than the other person, or that only vets/clanners can use anything properly. But then, that didn't stop you saying it.
On the note of "sides", it was because (as I have repeatedly stated to you) you claimed in one post that rucking was not a fade's job, then your arguement for regen revolved around the ability to ruck longer.
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try both upgrades first then try an actually neutral judgement on which one is better for your team and for you.
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Funny, I thought I'd already commented several times on where regen fades have an edge (longer battles, low level opponents) so I think I understand what its strengths are. However when comparing the two I can see the most benefit in being cara because you can withstand heavier punishment and thus be of more use. Much like taking redemption when gorging because it saves you the 10-16 points required to reevolve.
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It does take slightly more skill to stay alive, but that's what experience is for.
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See, back with the skill. Tell me, how does something which allows you to laze about in front of LMG fire equate with "more skill". Surely the goal is to NOT take damage in the first place, and thus merely need an edge of some sort for when LUCKY damage occurs? As a cara fade, I can blink about assassinating marines, go VIRTUALLY toe to toe with sgs (not so the regen fade) and become of more use as the game goes on. A regen fade can't challenge sg marines, and becomes of less use as the game goes on and marines become better equipped.
I think you should re-evaluate.
It used be a long time in 1.xx (about 30 seconds?) but the numbers have changed.
To kill as a fade: Celerity > Adren IMO. Not cause you can run you dumb people (eg Doobie Dan) as that will get you killed. But because one tap with lvl 3 celerity blink hurls you as far as holding down adren blink for 2 or 3 seconds. Thats amble time to hit it and then switch to your swipe. No need for a blink-slash script when you do this. Im a terrible fade and I can still get a few blink swipes in easy with celerity.
To kill an Onos: wow you better have lvl 2 guns by then. Just unload on his arse with a few friends. marines should always work in pairs at the very least and if you both are unloading you should be able to kill him with LMGs and Pistols. It isnt that difficult unless he stomps you so get on somethin high like a siege cannon or a beam or something.
To kill as an Onos: Stomp, gore, stomp, gore. Get adren not celerity. That way if you run into a HA train and you got allies near you you can stomp and let em cut em down. Team game remember? Dont stat ****. Just pisses people like me off. If your truly good at the game you will get high stats while working as a team.
-Red
EDIT: Oh and btw, regen fade is only good with 1 hive and a lot of elec nodes otherwise get carapace. lvl 3 shotgun can kill a fade in one shot almost always, but carapace usually leaves you 40 life or so....
And ALWAYS get Regen as an Onos. Dont care if they got lvl 3 hmgs. You live SO much longer than with redempt (which is just sad how little it works for many people and means you cant take down a turret farm) and carapce is useless. Utterly useless for an Onos.
Wrong.
Cara is good when the marines can aim or have level 3 weapons. Otherwise, regen is your friend.
You speak as if a single shotgun shell can kill a Fade. It cannot. A full health Fade will never die from a single shotgun shell.
Also, an experienced Fade will blink away immediately if hit by a shotgun shell. This means that to be killed by shotgunners, a Fade must be hit by two shotguns simultaneously or in close succession. Against a small group of shotgunners, unless the Fade is spending too much time on the ground and/or is blinking in straight lines, that is very highly unlikely to happen. Against a large group, of course, the chances of that are much higher, but then again carapaced Fades don't stand much of a chance against large groups either.
<!--QuoteBegin--Snapper Jo+Jan 16 2004, 01:42 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Snapper Jo @ Jan 16 2004, 01:42 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->But because one tap with lvl 3 celerity blink hurls you as far as holding down adren blink for 2 or 3 seconds.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
That is an exaggeration. I have used celerity; in fact it was once my upgrade of choice for the Fade. It significantly increases blink speed, but not to that extent.
<!--QuoteBegin--Snapper Jo+Jan 16 2004, 01:42 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Snapper Jo @ Jan 16 2004, 01:42 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->lvl 3 shotgun can kill a fade in one shot almost always, but carapace usually leaves you 40 life or so....<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Not true. An uncarapaced Fade has, effectively, 355 health. A level 3 shotgun deals 220 damage total, per shot. A level 3 shotgun shell cannot kill a Fade in one hit.
Only time adren pays is if you're 'flying' or taking out a building. If you're running energy outside of those 2 situations then you're just being sloppy <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif'><!--endemo-->
<b>edit:</b> oop, almost forgot acid rockets... need adren to really use those too... not that I ever do =/
I use adrenaline when available because it allows me as a Fade to maneuver effectively in midair without running out of energy (I suppose that'd be considered 'flying,' though I rarely actually hold the attack key). Without adrenaline one is for the most part confined to blink hops.
Fade vs BFGs = carapace
And for the record, I almost always use carapace.
Anyway, like the others said, never stay out of blink too long. heck don't even stay in battle all that long either. Blink in and swipe 1-2 times and get the heck out.
For onos, crouch/jump/bhop style. Make every gore hit if you can. use charge for quick hits. Use stomp to cover your retreat or to close in. Don't overuse stomp if you plan on attacking.
And above all else, your butt is very expensive so don't get greedy for kills. <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif'><!--endemo--> You're preservation throughout the game can go along way. Just don't get too cowardly or you might not even make much of a difference. <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif'><!--endemo-->
Whenever I'm pubbing I go silence fade. Its very amusing.