Why Do Aliens Always Win On Hera?

Ballisto · January 2004

<div class="IPBDescription">We know they do!!</div> Actually I'll admit right now that they don't always. I can't say anything about clan play, but on pubs, aliens win almost all of the time. I think we'll all agree that this map's stacked for aliens.

Now, why do you think that is? I'm personally stumped, marines should win a lot - lots of long hallways, that nasty reloc in the one hive (the one with the water and the ledge, name's skipping me), and plenty of seige spots. I've seen some talk about improving the map... but first, let's figure out what's wrong with it?

There's the exploit of building on the hera walkway... but about the actual map layout - why do aliens win all the time? What do you think?

Shazbot · January 2004

Well... if marines take and secure hera and holoroom, they got a good chance at winning, as all they have to do is slowly keep pushing towards lower processing, and once that is accomplished, you got the two hive siege position. Don't base the map's balance off of a few games... For me, I think it is stacked for the marines, and the gameplay is always the same boring strategy for the marines.

wilson502 · January 2004

probably because the data core delta and archiving are close together. They all those res nodes in that area so the aliens have an advantage there. That would be my theory, but i could be wrong.

Nurot · January 2004

I agree if you secure the dual rescources and keep the aliens on the def. rather than allowing them to go onos all the time then you stand just as much of a chance at winning if you play your cards right.

Keyser · January 2004

90% of the space in hera is just an accident waiting to happen for the marines. The only places I can think of that don't give a huge advantage to the aliens is hera and lower processing. Skulks have their way easily.

SuperTeflon · January 2004

We relocated to cargo once instead of the classic reception. Worked rather well. We could quickly defend or reclaim the MS node, we could siege holoroom, and it was a fairly defensible location (No vents once you weld one shut, and the hole in the floor is a deathtrap for fades and onos if you close it from the second floor when they run in <img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif'>)

Cypher · January 2004

I agree that the map has it's flaws for both sides...Marines ALWAYS seem to relocate to hera, in which ensues a long boring game...
If marines stay in MS...There will be a fade or lerk that stays outside bombarding the res node all the time (I always fade when marines stay in MS) It's very easy to just bling away and heal if you get attacked on the platform.
Then of course there is the double seige room...Processing, which was supposed to be fixed in 2.0, but wasnt...

Bogglesteinsky · January 2004

aiens win because of the complete lack of resource nodes anywhere near marine start. If they can relocate to an area with more node, such as Holoroom, they stand a good chance of winning.

Resnode placement is a very crucial part of map design, more than people might think.

Jabba_The_Hunt · January 2004

yeah the marines just have a really duff starting location, hmm, I think it needs a total rework, add in an extra node, there aswell, or just make the whole area smaller/closer to hera entrance.

Seph_Kimara · January 2004

</span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Z.X. Bogglesteinsky @ Jan 12 2004, 11:29 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> aiens win because of the complete lack of resource nodes anywhere near marine start. If they can relocate to an area with more node, such as Holoroom, they stand a good chance of winning.

Resnode placement is a very crucial part of map design, more than people might think. </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'>
I'm agreeing with Bogglesteinsky here.

Another reason would be the landing platform rine start res node. Too easy to harass.

Even so though, I still think the double hive siege point is kinda cheap...

SuperTeflon · January 2004

</span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Jabba The Hunt @ Jan 12 2004, 06:47 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> yeah the marines just have a really duff starting location, hmm, I think it needs a total rework, add in an extra node, there aswell, or just make the whole area smaller/closer to hera entrance. </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'>
First, you remove the second floor comm chair. That's just a pain. Then, redesign the entire area so it's more ergonomic: Remove the crates to make more room, and make the glass corridor more lethal: Narrower, without three tiers of fallback positions. Next, get rid of the vent. Also, either put a huge trigger_gibthehelloutof all around the outdoor area, or just remove it. Sure it was neat and cool but it just didn't work. Finally, make cargo's door able to be opened on either side without welding. That's just a long hassle no one wants to perform.

Raistlin6 · January 2004

the Main Problem is that you have to walk a Kilometer to get to another Resnode from the Marine Spawn.

llamapoo · January 2004

I only play on one server and marines seem to win more than they lose on Hera. Cargo and Reception are the main places we relocate too. An occasional relocation to Processing works every once in a while.

P.S. Cypher is teh suck!

=FUA=

boberto · January 2004

Because it's so easy to attack marine start from 2 locations, making it a bit more difficult to defend. Rooms like holoroom are also a huge pain to defend. Overall, aliens have the advantage because of all the nicely placed vents and ambush points.

RobB · January 2004

It's a pain when marines get Hera Entrance...

You can't set up the double node cause there will in 90% of all games be at least one siege - enough to bring the great doom to your RT's
That doesn't seem right to me somehow.
Hera Entrance is like... a Terran Bunker in Starcraft!

Jaml · January 2004

I agree on wrong res node placement. It just too hard for the marines to get a 2. res. Since they have to walk so long and across nasty hallways with plenty of ambushing skulks they often dont make it out of their base. And Reinforcements take to long to get anywhere so your res nodes get lost frequently. And the outdoor res is horrible! If all the rines go on attack then a lerk spikes the res so you have to keep some marines to defend/weld it making you weaker on the frontline. On that map a reloc is the only reasonable option cause from MS it takes too long to get a base/tech up and onos roll over you while you try to figure out how to secure hera entrance cause your squad always dies on their way due to faster alien reinforcements. If the rines have to walk long ways they always are at a disadvantage cause a skulks can just rush/ambush them, take one down die and be back to kill another one faster than the rines reaching their destination. So you basically fight against twice as much skulks as the size of your team till you reach the far res nodes and this is in my eyes the reason hera MS is so horrible.
Fact A: Marines > Aliens if they hold a position (The aliens have to reach the camping marines giving them plenty of time to fire at them)
Fact B: Aliens > Marines if the marines are on the move (The aliens just have to hide, open their mouths and wait till a rine runs into it )
=> Long walks = Deathtraps for rines

Geronimo · January 2004

Id say a relocation is not necessary, just weld open the door to cargo and youve got access to both holoroom and processing allowing to get basically all RTs except Archiving with two sieges and some people running around...

Absolutionary · January 2004

the marine start is lame mainly because you have to walk 1/4th of the map to get anywhere usefull, it either goes

long way to vent (gl holding maintnance)
long way to hera (relocation is best, otherwise your not going to be able to hold it)
general cargo-> flying skulks from above, though if you can secure lower proc, then happy day

Kickarse · January 2004

Quite simply, because it's crap.

coris · January 2004

NO mapbashing. K, thx bye.

TenSix · January 2004

Aside from the double siege thing and the buggy res nodes, I liked the 1.04 Hera better. Honesty, theres lots of 2.0 maps that have glaring balance problems that should have never made it in until they were fixed.

Origin is horribly designed in that Ventilation has only 1 real entrance and that the layout is a nightmare for an Onos (if you don't have double, your pretty much cutoff from a hive). Mineshaft has overly cramped hives. Lost has two hives a stones throw apart and 1 hive across the map. Eclipse's Marine Start is way to big for its own good. And Caged is just layed out really oddly.

See the pattern? Can't do much about it either, since the gameplay is constantly changing.

Buggy · January 2004

its cus rines go to same places out of habit (hera/holo/proc) and aliens just fix on that

lack of diversity on marine tactics me thinks

Lucid · January 2004

I hate hera but I play it for the sole reason of baiting and squishing dumb fades into the marine start elevator.

Turkey2 · January 2004

Mostly stale tactics for marines. The cargo relocation is a rather powerful one yet seldom used. Marine start is awful strategically. Having all the nodes clumped in one area actually should help rines more, the problem is the ambush spots and everything along the way. Next time if the comm forces yo to hera weld open to archiving and grab that res first then weld into the back of data and sneak in. You will most likely never see an alien and then if you wanted to could lock down 2 hives. The other problem is its way too easy to get around as aliens than marines. Yes most maps will have similar mobility styles but like going from vent to data takes seconds and it takes 10-15 from data to archiving. And of course roughly 10-15 from archiving to marine start or if they relocate to hera even less. The old vent was at least defendable and weldable.

chis1 · January 2004

its always nice to have an alien type map and a marine type map, and then the map that no one has real advantages on <img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin.gif'>

ViolenceJack · January 2004

I dunno about aliens always winning but marines often have a high chance. basicly there is the easy double res holding or at least not letting aliens have em and also there used to be if there isnt any more the siege spot in holoroom i think where u can hold down 2 hives with siege.

MonsieurEvil · January 2004

Because you don't always have to win to have fun.

TenSix · January 2004

</span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (MonsieurEvil @ Jan 13 2004, 05:57 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> Because you don't always have to win to have fun.  </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> 
True for Marines, but not so much for Aliens. Theres a whole thread on this around here somewhere...

MonsieurEvil · January 2004

True for life in general. No exceptions.

Norml_E_High · January 2004

Actually they did adjust the double siege stuff... you used to be able to siege both hives from one place, now you can only siege vent, then you have to move the sieges closer to data core... not exactly a fix... but I mean cmon, were you expecting them to move data core away from lower processing? Move vent further away? No point really, you can't do both at once, and that was the only problem. Well.. I guess you could do both at once, but lets face it, that would take alot of res, and if you had that much, the aliens probably aren't going to dig you out of processing.

Bogglesteinsky · January 2004

</span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (MonsieurEvil @ Jan 14 2004, 12:36 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> True for life in general. No exceptions.  </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> 
good point.

getting back on topic though... <img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif'>

It should not be necessary for marines to relocate to have a decent chance of winning. sure, you can win from MS, even I did it once (back in 1.04) but that was a very rare occurence. I have not seen many marine wins on Hera, but the ones I have, the marines have 90% of the time relocated. Usually to the corridoor between Reception and Holoroom.

Why Do Aliens Always Win On Hera?

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