The Reason Why Defense Is First.
Ballisto
Join Date: 2003-05-19 Member: 16503Members
Join Date: 2003-05-19 Member: 16503Members
<div class="IPBDescription">And will always be first (my opinion).</div> One word: Regen
Nothing compares to it. Although for skulks, who are suicidal, it often doesn't do much good, for the other classes, it does wonders. You can fight and run, and come back at full health without retreating to a hive. Without regen, higher lifeforms have to run all the way back to the hive, and they'll die quickly. Regen is what lets that fade knock down electrified rt after rt (you have to stop to heal at some point). Regen is what gives that onos health and saves his butt as he runs away. Regen lets that lerk in the vent stay there and sporespam the entire game. <!--emo&;)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/wink.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='wink.gif'><!--endemo-->
If you're going to have a higher lifeform, regen is pretty much required to not die. Cara is good for pretty much only skulks (suicidal, expendable) and gorges (gorge gangs=healspray). Redemption is a second chance, and a way to stay alive for ppl who don't have the control to run.
Look at games - if dc isn't the first chamber, it's the second. If it's neither, gg.
I'm not saying you can't win with other chambers first. Silence pwns with skulks. It's good up until heavies even! Cloaking is good (but unfortunately neutralized by obs), and a network of scs can get you map control.
But in all these games that are won with something else first, the skulks dominate at first and then the second hive goes up quickly, and there you have your dc.
None of the other chambers benefit higher life forms as much as dc with regen. Plain and simple. They die too easily.
I dunno what can be done about this, but lets see what you think.
Nothing compares to it. Although for skulks, who are suicidal, it often doesn't do much good, for the other classes, it does wonders. You can fight and run, and come back at full health without retreating to a hive. Without regen, higher lifeforms have to run all the way back to the hive, and they'll die quickly. Regen is what lets that fade knock down electrified rt after rt (you have to stop to heal at some point). Regen is what gives that onos health and saves his butt as he runs away. Regen lets that lerk in the vent stay there and sporespam the entire game. <!--emo&;)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/wink.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='wink.gif'><!--endemo-->
If you're going to have a higher lifeform, regen is pretty much required to not die. Cara is good for pretty much only skulks (suicidal, expendable) and gorges (gorge gangs=healspray). Redemption is a second chance, and a way to stay alive for ppl who don't have the control to run.
Look at games - if dc isn't the first chamber, it's the second. If it's neither, gg.
I'm not saying you can't win with other chambers first. Silence pwns with skulks. It's good up until heavies even! Cloaking is good (but unfortunately neutralized by obs), and a network of scs can get you map control.
But in all these games that are won with something else first, the skulks dominate at first and then the second hive goes up quickly, and there you have your dc.
None of the other chambers benefit higher life forms as much as dc with regen. Plain and simple. They die too easily.
I dunno what can be done about this, but lets see what you think.
Comments
I sort of semi-agree but I don't see why anything has to be done...
No matter if the dc is 2nd or 3rd, skilled players will make the best of the chambers they get and pwn he 'rines. You said it yourself, sc first often means that skulks dominate until second hive is up and by then the entire discussion is invalid (imo).
Only thing you missed is the fact that dc clusters under a hive can save your arse when the marines come a-knockin', but if they do, it is your own fault <!--emo&;)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/wink.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='wink.gif'><!--endemo-->
I sort of semi-agree but I don't see why anything has to be done...
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Because its getting boring. Thats why this matter MUST be adressed.
it simply gets boring always playing D-M-S.
Celerity is good but not good enough IMHO the speed loss it incurred for 2.01 really hurt and now it doesnt contend with silence.
Silence is the only real early upgrade that is strong enough to reserve the MC any sort of first hive position.
And yet the chambers benefits sorely lack early on too, when does a skulk seriously need an MC to keep its adren up in early game?
The teleporation although useful isn't nearly as useful as healing aliens/buildings or cloaking everything/blocking MT.
Still the teleportation is only for a second hive stage and rarely useful for coordinated attacks using hive under attack tactics.
- RD
Silent skulks are just as deadly as carapaced skulks, they just take a bit more care to use correctly.
All he has to do is metabolize to reheal himself! He doesnt need regen. For hive one he can just blink to a hive!
You dont need regen for anything, thats what gorges and hives are for.. regen isnt a "must have" for assaults, if you get a gorge or two thrown into the assault its by far better than old regen! You dont need dc to win, its not "gg" if its not there.
If anyone hasnt noticed, DC is just a lack of teamwork on the aliens side. You dont need regen or carapace if a gorge is helping your assault or attack.
::Edit:: Er, i guess I MAY have misread you, soz. <!--emo&:0--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/wow.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='wow.gif'><!--endemo-->
It is rather rare to see fades and oni in early-game so it doesn't matter if they need it or not.
This is about dc as a 1st chamber, not if it is a good one.
This is: Hive one - What chamber do we get?
Everybody is always (on pubs) screaming OMG Teh defnes turret r teh pwn! instead of trying sc or mc instead. I agree with the original poster about this, I just don't see that anything *has* to be *done about it*. Sure, it gets stale but then, how fun is it to play on a team that gets totally creamed because ppl can't figure out how to use the 1st chamber?
I think this is a good thread but, really, the only way to change this would be to either make sc/mc more powerful (and I do NOT think that is gonna happen/is needed) or to make dc *less* powerful, which it certainly does not need.
Or am I wrong? Point it out to me, I am kinda slow today. <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo-->
anyway yes that is why D's will always be first unless you want a win in under 4 mins for 2.01 However 3.0 with focus and cloaking sensory will have a very good shot.
No its rather common for fades to show up at around the 3-5 minute mark. If the marine team is good, fades and other higher lifeforms are absolutely necessary.
Aliens need regen, and something tells me even if regen gets a nerf, people are still gonna go dcs first for regen. I really don't know what can be done, maybe give the aliens natural regeneration(which will be less effective than regen) and just replace the regen upgrade with something else entirely?
All he has to do is metabolize to reheal himself! He doesnt need regen. For hive one he can just blink to a hive!
You dont need regen for anything, thats what gorges and hives are for.. regen isnt a "must have" for assaults, if you get a gorge or two thrown into the assault its by far better than old regen! You dont need dc to win, its not "gg" if its not there.
If anyone hasnt noticed, DC is just a lack of teamwork on the aliens side. You dont need regen or carapace if a gorge is helping your assault or attack. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
You make a good point.
And onos often have gorge escorts (even on pubs!). But for onos, I think the most important upgrade is still regen.
For fade, if they have adren, they can live with metabolize... but wait, then they have two hives and... REGEN!!!
But except for really cooridnated people, regen is better. After all, a short hmg blast can make short work of the gorge escort!
There are NEVER games with m-s-d or s-m-d.
There are NEVER games with m-s-d or s-m-d. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
Well you get the idea... Screw up and you are dead! You have to do hefty damage to the early marine team, and this usually ends up killing them, as all they have built is the armory, two IP's and an OBS, if you are fast enough.
Makes everyone happy.
EDIT: also, the aliens are suppose to adapt to marine tactics... well they can't do that if they are all locked onto a hive ability...
Another cool thing would be a little sprout come out of the alien when he selects an upgrade chamber... that way you can tell who is using what. So if someone selects defense, you see a little miniture defense chamber sticking out of the skulk.
<b>Makes everyone happy.</b> <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
Also makes marines very dead. I mean think about it, if well used, those marines would get hit with all kinds of enemies, cloaked ones, silent ones, regenerating ones, <b>at the same time</b>. No to mention all this is early in the game, when marines are very weak.
Gorges can drop any chambers they want. However, when the hive gets finished the gorge picks which ability the aliens should get. So gorges could place a series of D chambers all over the map for "regeneration" and when the hive is finished the gorge can pick MC or SEN upgrades for aliens.
Dustin Michaels
This is a fscking good idea. I think it'd be interesting to see what would happen (in a public setting) if you removed regen and D chambers healing ability, and replaced them with other stuff. Maybe people would start mixing up the chambers? Because as is, Regen owns. It just does. You can heal yourself no matter where you are, in addition to anywhere theres a D chamber (which tends to be around quite a few WOLs, etc). Compared to the ability to regenerate hitpoints, all the speed, stealth, tracking, and damage upgrades in the world are crap. Think about what would happen if 'rines had a (researchable) reneration ability. Coms would be all over that like white on rice! Right now, whats the first upgrade you usually see for the rines? Armour 1, right? Why? Because it helps the rines live longer. Aliens have Cara, but people tend to pick regen because it trumps everything else. We're all regen addicts! <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif'><!--endemo-->
I know Flay likes a good experiment, so this one gets my vote. Toss all regenerative abilities from the game, and see what happens. It doesn't even have to be official... just make it an experimental beta patch, and let people run wild with it. I'd love to see the results of something like that. <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo-->
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Well, thats basically the idea of redemption, you shouldn't die.
And surprisingly, you can't do sod all damage with redempt skulk either.
and i agree, D is best but also getting boring.
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Well, thats basically the idea of redemption, you shouldn't die.
And surprisingly, you can't do sod all damage with redempt skulk either.
and i agree, D is best but also getting boring. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
you would be suprised
which leads to my next point, why not trade adrenilin or silence with redemption, neither are inately more movementish then warping across the map to your nearest hive. Although it is a little wimpy, redempt is a viable higher lifeform replacement for regen, and if it were from the movement chambers it might make people not want to force def as first chamber every time, although it would probably still be second almost every time due to regen being so great, but even so sence move wouldn't be an instant loss any more, it would just be more difficult. Right now def has the best upgrade and problably the 3rd and 5th others, instead of nerfing defs upgrades and befing up others, why not just switch them around?
I've thought about this, if the aliens are supposed to be so adaptable; why is it that the marines are the ones with the counter for everything?
-aliens get Sensory; Marines put up obs everywhere.
-a Fade pops up; shotties for everyone!
-onos coming, or lerks sporing the whole map; HA (or, more shotties)
-DC making aliens harder to kill; nullify it with weapons upgrades, then make the marines harder to kill with armour upgrades.
the aliens don't seem to have as many solid counters, just more of a "these rocks arent hurting them any more; lets throw bricks instead!" and then the marines adapt to the bricks.
Of course this is all my opinion, based on what I've seen in the pubs I visit....
I've thought about this, if the aliens are supposed to be so adaptable; why is it that the marines are the ones with the counter for everything?
-aliens get Sensory; Marines put up obs everywhere.
-a Fade pops up; shotties for everyone!
-onos coming, or lerks sporing the whole map; HA (or, more shotties)
-DC making aliens harder to kill; nullify it with weapons upgrades, then make the marines harder to kill with armour upgrades.
the aliens don't seem to have as many solid counters, just more of a "these rocks arent hurting them any more; lets throw bricks instead!" and then the marines adapt to the bricks.
Of course this is all my opinion, based on what I've seen in the pubs I visit.... <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
you couldnt be more accurate
regen is like the heart of the aliens (when i say regen instead of dc i include hives/dc's/gorges healing powers. would you get cara or redempt if they couldnt heal you?). because you only get one chamber type per hive its an opportunity cost thing. sure mc's and sc's are great but dc helps so much more. it cant be dismissed as the lazy chamber either, you could say a couple of gorges + onos/cara = ownage but a couple of gorges + onos/regen = win (unless the marines have peashooters in which case you dont need gorges anyway).
anyway onto suggestions. i see someones already mentioned natural regen which is a good idea but at the current regen rate it would be waaay to powerful (cos its like an extra upgrade) and even if you nerfed it a bit the aliens would be under powered in combat.
they need control over their regen which is why i think they should have a medpack-like system - spend 2 res and start regening X% res at the normal regen rate :/
the best solution would be to revamp the entire chamber system (different upgrades) and actually think about balance. get rid of the nomenclatures and have 3 diff chambers with 1 diff regen upgrade each. i'll leave the rest to your imagination :o
The balance is the fact that 90 res for all chambers is hard to come by. Also the fact that people can play to their own style and rines cant counter as easy as was mentioned with all their hard counters.
This would really diversify the game i feel. Even if it was just tried and found to be too powerful or too weak due to costs etc.
This would really only work if the res intake stays as slow for aliens as it is currently.
- RD