how about for the natural regen idea theres a control on regen, like its a control you have to set. Like, when holding down this button to use regen, it uses up your energy pretty quick, while doing about a lvl 1 regen...plus, maybe the more hives you have, the higher level the regen is. hive 1 = lvl 1 regen....hive 2 = lvl 2 regen, you get the idea. I like the idea of being able to drop all chambes from the start, but only gaining upgrades from the first three. mixing up the upgrades like that would be very sweet indeed.
I really see ignorance is running rampant on these boards.
I see the same people say that "Guys, the other chambers can work too if the aliens know what they are doing," and yet in every clan match (for American's and Euro's) I've seen start with D chambers.
There is NO DENYING THAT D CHAMBERS ARE THE BEST IN 2.01. It's not the lazy chamber, it's not the win chamber, it is, <b>THE</b> chamber. You either have it or you don't, there aren't any other options.
You simply cannot win without D chambers. You can with without any other chamber.
NOTE: The following is all providing that you are playing against competent marines who can aim.
Somone just made a dam good point..why cant we get rid of defchambers alltoghether or even better just make them affect buildings. Tbh they aren't a real upgrade chamber and should disappear from ns.
Ok its an upgrade chamber and provides more diverse styles of play. However people complain about how the other chambers don't offer the same level of benefit and so always chose def. If def is seen as the best chamber it will always be chosen, and as this thread says some will always see it as the best. I think the only way to avoid this is to remove def chambers. The argument for this is that they dont actually add any abilities to any of the aliens and don't really change the style of game one little bit. This chamber has become lame and in my opinion should be gone, at least for lifeforms, as wol backup they definetly have a role. The basic problem is that defense is one of the three chambers when it really shouldn't be.
A suggestion I made way back when 2.0 was still called 1.1 was to make res towers heal stuff in their radius like a miniature hive (10-20 health a tick would be fair IMO). This has several uses;
It provides a logical counterpoint to marines' electricity - marines keep the aliens away through direct prevention, kharaa keep marines away through strengthening their defensive measures, be they scouting skulks or OC's.
It makes DC's much less important in the early game, since the nearest healing station is only as far as the nearest res node, negating the need for regeneration.
It makes static defences around resource nodes stronger, encouraging their use rather than the more popular 'plant a res and leave it' strategy.
And sensory last gives you cloaking Onos which can just be damn funny to devour marines as they pass by <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo-->
If you get rid of the DC you are making Aliens weaker. Aren't we trying to make them stronger? (Considering the whole "Marines have counters to everything") I think the last thing we should do is get rid of the only Ace in our proverbial sleeve. Maybe just finding good alternative abilities for other chambers.
As usual my suggestion is a Upgrade for a chamber other than DC that does this: Everytime you attack a marine with a melee attack and it hits, you get a % of that damage back as health. With each level that % increases. It doesn't have to be dramatic, like 50%, it could be just 5% or something, but it will definetly still be powerful. Because all you have to do is attack to regain health. How this would fit under MC or SC though, I really don't know.
ever chamber is a good choise at the beganing, and if i faced you in a match there are many ways to counter that...
mc, sc, are also good firsts, just becouse you must use your brain your not good with them doesn't make them bad.... <!--emo&::marine::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/marine.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='marine.gif'><!--endemo-->
<!--QuoteBegin--Cold-NiTe+Jan 5 2004, 01:26 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Cold-NiTe @ Jan 5 2004, 01:26 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> If you get rid of the DC you are making Aliens weaker. Aren't we trying to make them stronger? (Considering the whole "Marines have counters to everything") I think the last thing we should do is get rid of the only Ace in our proverbial sleeve. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> Agreed, one of the worst things about NS is that marines for some stupid reason, have counters to <b>everything</b>, and aliens don't have any. Their 'counters' rely on the aliens to be more skilled then the marines, or to get their upgrades faster, which sometimes isn't possible.
Simply said, dropping DC is insane. You guys argue that everyone plays DMS etc. You back that up with "MC and SC are too weak". So what sense would it be to drop the only strong chamber, and leave us with only weaker ones. None. The only real option is to introduce upgrades to SC and MC with great power and versatility. BTW Focus is not the answer imo, but if you want to discuss that go to the other thread.
I like DC for its usefulness to every lifeform. It <b>will</b> help no matter how skilled/unskilled you are, and every lifeform (even skulk) can benefit from one of the upgrades. The passive heal is useful when you're short on gorges, it dramatically prolongs the life of your hive, and greatly aids defenses.
The thing is, since lifeforms aren't tied to a hive, there's a chance if we're having trouble getting a hive, I can bring a regen onos in, who will have infintely more chances of success then just an MC onos, or god forbid, an SC onos. Basically, the DC is a reliable chamber, always able to help no matter what the conditions are.
I like MC most for celerity which is a boon for onos and fade, adreneline for gorge bilebomb, etc. It also has the 'teleport to hive' passive ability.
I'm not going to have onos and fade anytime before 5 minutes (Except under rare conditions). Nor will I have bilebomb without a second hive, and teleport to hive is pretty useless with only one hive. MC is definately <b>the</b> chamber to have at hive two.
Please, dropping the DC isnt "insane". We're talking about a total revamp of the alien tech-tree. With this comes the need of balance changes.
If you remove the DC ,one of the solutions is to lower the cost for hives and add extra health/carapace per number of hives. Another approach is to strenghten the basic lifeforms from the start.
An entierly different approach (as has been suggested earlier in this thread) is to could drop the "defense, mobility, stealth"-theme and split carapace and regeneration, that way you have the choice of able skulks or fades. Though one could agrue that celerity/silence and (in 3.0) focus, are as good as carapace for skulks (and the skulk is the only lifeform that uses carapace atm).
Anyways, to round up the rambling: no, removing the DC isnt to cripple the khaara as it would go hand in hand with other changes.
[edit] this forum has some weird mechanics... [/edit]
<!--QuoteBegin--tjosan+Jan 5 2004, 01:59 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (tjosan @ Jan 5 2004, 01:59 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Please, dropping the DC isnt "insane". We're talking about a total revamp of the alien tech-tree. With this comes the need of balance changes.
If you remove the DC ,one of the solutions is to lower the cost for hives and add extra health/carapace per number of hives. Another approach is to strenghten the basic lifeforms from the start.
An entierly different approach (as has been suggested earlier in this thread) is to could drop the "defense, mobility, stealth"-theme and split carapace and regeneration, that way you have the choice of able skulks or fades. Though one could agrue that celerity/silence and (in 3.0) focus, are as good as carapace for skulks (and the skulk is the only lifeform that uses carapace atm).
Anyways, to round up the rambling: no, removing the DC isnt to cripple the khaara as it would go hand in hand with other changes.
[edit] this forum has some weird mechanics... [/edit] <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> Well, I suppose if you can find some reasonable way to compensate for it then it wouldn't be all that bad...
<!--QuoteBegin--Buggy+Jan 5 2004, 02:54 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Buggy @ Jan 5 2004, 02:54 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin--SuperTeflon+Jan 5 2004, 01:52 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (SuperTeflon @ Jan 5 2004, 01:52 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> I say 'Redempt Skulk' and people laugh but it's amazing how effective it is. It's surprisingly hard to die as redempt skulk.
<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Well, thats basically the idea of redemption, you shouldn't die. And surprisingly, you can't do sod all damage with redempt skulk either. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> For attacking marines in their base, not really, it's not all useful, but if the marines are relatively near the hive, the redemp skulk is the zealot defender of the hive.
As long as he gets proper healing before he goes into battle again. If the marines are right next to the hive, the skulk will redempt right next to them and die. As long as the marines are within the right distance from the hive, redempt skulks are annoying as heck.
For the record, despite whatever stats or strats you may say you have...
I have NEVER seen an alien win when someone went other than DC at the first and second hive (DC 3rd hive, never got there).
Unless you're playing against the most uncompetant marine team EVER they will counter your sensory with MT and GL their way to your base taking out any defenses with ease since you need a gorge everywhere to heal them and none of the higher lifeforms can regen effectively without a gorge (fade is a halfhearted attempt, metabolize = next to useless, I can blink back to the hive and full regen before I can get halfway back to full health with that crap. It should be 30-40% of total health back, not 30)
I think the problem as Forlorn stated is that you need DCs to win. We can't get rid of DCs, so why not change them up.
Swap 1 or 2 of the Attacks around between SC, MC and DC. That way MC could have 1 of the DC abilities and SC could have a MC ability and so on. That way we dont have 1 BE ALL END ALL chamber.
Or better yet, just do what Forlorn said in that other thread.
<!--QuoteBegin--Majin+Jan 5 2004, 03:46 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Majin @ Jan 5 2004, 03:46 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> I think the problem as Forlorn stated is that you need DCs to win. We can't get rid of DCs, so why not change them up.
Swap 1 or 2 of the Attacks around between SC, MC and DC. That way MC could have 1 of the DC abilities and SC could have a MC ability and so on. That way we dont have 1 BE ALL END ALL chamber.
Or better yet, just do what Forlorn said in that other thread. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> The problem isn't 'DCs are overpowered'. The problem is 'Everything else completely and utterly sucks compared to DCs'. Swapping them up and around would cripple the aliens beyond hope.
One hive locked down would render fades and onos, or lerks, or gorges, or what-have-you useless because it can't get his 'ideal' upgrade that you used to get. It's also lead to even MORE fights about chambers then there are now (Well I want a Sensory chamber for Regen fade and ono!). In general it'd do more harm then help.
The ideal upgrades for an onos is Celerity and Regeneration. The ideal upgrades for a fade is Celerity or Adreneline and Regeneration or Carapace (Arguable with metabolize)
For simplicity let's assume metabolize is a choice tool for the Fade in our case.
Gorge drops a sensory chamber for hive 1, because he wants his Fade to have Carapace (Which has been renamed to 'Bullet Dodge' or something). Unfortunately this completely pisses off the team member who wanted to go onos, or a gorge who wanted to rely on Redemption. Furthermore, this means that one SC upgrade is missing: Cloak, SoF, or Focus. So say Focus got moved to a Defense Chamber. So now you're not going to have focus until hive 2, and then it's too late for it.
So Hive 2 rolls around and the gorge goes fade and is enjoying his carapace and metabolize. He begs and his buddy drops three movement chambers, giving them celerity, adreneline, and redemption. Now your onos is only half as effective as he could be, but at least he has celerity. So now the selfish fade has *HIS* upgrades, at the expense of the rest of his team. At least with the current model you don't have to worry: Everyone with a defense chamber can choose THEIR armor upgrade of choice.
Fix the other upgrades first, then we'll talk. One easy and very effective change would be to turn Movement Chambers into phase gates instead of an ability that REQUIRES 2 hives to use.
But you know, I'm not a 3.0 playtester. Logical thought and foresight like this is impossible to have (Right Boggle?)
<!--QuoteBegin--SuperTeflon+Jan 5 2004, 01:30 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (SuperTeflon @ Jan 5 2004, 01:30 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin--Cold-NiTe+Jan 5 2004, 01:26 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Cold-NiTe @ Jan 5 2004, 01:26 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> If you get rid of the DC you are making Aliens weaker. Aren't we trying to make them stronger? (Considering the whole "Marines have counters to everything") I think the last thing we should do is get rid of the only Ace in our proverbial sleeve. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Agreed, one of the worst things about NS is that marines for some stupid reason, have counters to <b>everything</b>, and aliens don't have any. Their 'counters' rely on the aliens to be more skilled then the marines, or to get their upgrades faster, which sometimes isn't possible. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> The game is designed this way.
Part of the entire theme of NS was that aliens start off in the map with the map advantages, and upgrade advantages, etc. etc.
However, as per se the title, "Natural Selection," marines, being the crafty humans they are, must change the enviroment to their specifications and wants away from the aliens. Futhering this, marines must also counter whatever the aliens throw at them because marines are the ones who are masters of the enviroment and must prove it.
The gameplay was intended to be as such: Aliens came on the ground, and over time made the advantage theirs and must keep it, marines came on the ground and must quickly take it.
Go read the mapping guidelines or the manual if you do not believe me.
<!--QuoteBegin--Forlorn+Jan 5 2004, 04:17 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Forlorn @ Jan 5 2004, 04:17 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin--SuperTeflon+Jan 5 2004, 01:30 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (SuperTeflon @ Jan 5 2004, 01:30 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin--Cold-NiTe+Jan 5 2004, 01:26 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Cold-NiTe @ Jan 5 2004, 01:26 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> If you get rid of the DC you are making Aliens weaker. Aren't we trying to make them stronger? (Considering the whole "Marines have counters to everything") I think the last thing we should do is get rid of the only Ace in our proverbial sleeve. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Agreed, one of the worst things about NS is that marines for some stupid reason, have counters to <b>everything</b>, and aliens don't have any. Their 'counters' rely on the aliens to be more skilled then the marines, or to get their upgrades faster, which sometimes isn't possible. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> The game is designed this way.
Part of the entire theme of NS was that aliens start off in the map with the map advantages, and upgrade advantages, etc. etc.
However, as per se the title, "Natural Selection," marines, being the crafty humans they are, must change the enviroment to their specifications and wants away from the aliens. Futhering this, marines must also counter whatever the aliens throw at them because marines are the ones who are masters of the enviroment and must prove it.
The gameplay was intended to be as such: Aliens came on the ground, and over time made the advantage theirs and must keep it, marines came on the ground and must quickly take it.
Go read the mapping guidelines or the manual if you do not believe me. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Aren't you the one (or someone did) who made a post in one of these threads about how if you balance so a mediocre skulk can kill a mediocre marine, that means that a super-skilled skulk can kill dozens of marines? The same logic applies to that. In theory, sure it sounds neat (BTW What the hell is a 'map advantage'? Maybe if the aliens started with more then 1 lousy res node you could call it an advantage...), but in practicality it's where the balance issues lie: Skilled marines facing inferior-powered skilled aliens will generally result in marines winning that fight. The only main way to compensate, aside from taking advantage of few chokepoints, or lazy marines not checking vents and ceilings and such, is defense chambers to even the odds.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Aren't you the one (or someone did) who made a post in one of these threads about how if you balance so a mediocre skulk can kill a mediocre marine, that means that a super-skilled skulk can kill dozens of marines? The same logic applies to that. In theory, sure it sounds neat (BTW What the hell is a 'map advantage'? Maybe if the aliens started with more then 1 lousy res node...), but in practicallity it's where the balance issues lie: Super skilled marines facing inferior-powered super skilled aliens will generally result in marines winning.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<!--QuoteBegin--Birdy+Jan 5 2004, 04:37 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Birdy @ Jan 5 2004, 04:37 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Aren't you the one (or someone did) who made a post in one of these threads about how if you balance so a mediocre skulk can kill a mediocre marine, that means that a super-skilled skulk can kill dozens of marines? The same logic applies to that. In theory, sure it sounds neat (BTW What the hell is a 'map advantage'? Maybe if the aliens started with more then 1 lousy res node...), but in practicallity it's where the balance issues lie: Super skilled marines facing inferior-powered super skilled aliens will generally result in marines winning.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
say what? <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Last night I'm playing 7 on 7.
As an alien, I know exactly what all the tricks are, so I was lethal as a marine. Check the overheads, identify the hidden areas, and proceed with caution. That waypoint can wait. I encountered skulks and was able to successfully blow them away with my weapon upgrade, and also thanks to motion tracking. One obvious example of marine tech over-countering alien tech: they didn't stand a chance. I alone was able to get to the hive and build a PG in it (These weren't sucky skulks either, most were close enough to get a bite into me before I pistol whipped him. Thank god for a generous comm)
So sure one game might be an exception but these skulks didn't turely suck, I was just really good, and in addition to a few overcountering upgrades I constantly had an advantage over them, and advantage that was impossible to overcome because of the rediculous differences in tech trees.
NS is like playing Command and Conquer, except one team gets tanks, and the other doesn't get RPG troops or missile batteries to counter the tanks, but instead just gets lots and lots of really really cheap grunts to fling at the tanks and win by attrition.
It is so simple, movement and sensory are <b>offensive</b> chambers, <b>defense is the odd one out</b>. From the number of posts it seems clear that the system is in need of change. So what can be done?
Lets make this perfectly clear. The point of upgrade chambers is to provide upgrades i.e. extra abilities for the aliens. The real problem is that the aliens cannot adapt when the marines adopt the appropriate tech to nerf the aliens chosen upgrade.
So you take an offensive chamber? When you lose your offensive skills youre a gonner unless youve already caused enough damage. So you go with defense? You may pull through becuase you can SURVIVE
<b>Please for gods sake stop counting existence as an ability!</b>
The only problem with the chambers is that you only get one type of ability per chamber. If the abilities were simply mixed so you got something to help both in containment and base attack and defending, wouldn't that be so much better? That way aliens get to change their style of play without leaving themselves vulnerable or simply unable to harm enemy bases. A much better idea for later hives is not to allow a different set of abilities which is not so much flawed as an invitation to boring routine. Instead they should negate the effect of the marines counter tech. In this way it will be an arms race, however the marines will never be quite sure if the aliens have continued on the same tech pathway.
Other solutions where the current form of the chambers is kept must allow easy transition to another path, a similar idea to that outlined above but worse (i think), or full commitment of the aliens to that strategy, possibly for the game. Naturally the latter would mean removing defence as a chamber and its a replacement with some other defence system. Hit points for kills anyone?, a pretty stupid idea maybe but fun <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo--> I like the res healing station idea too.
In summary aliens must not be punnished for adapting to the tactics of the marines, you know it makes sense!
Map adavantage no longer exists, which is a sad thing as some of the best moments in ns have been the total surprise of your enemy. To overcome this the aliens need stealth tech, once more the marines are in fear of their lives they can't just look and listen carefully to be invulnerable. What we are argueing about is the stealth tech route verses the hit and run and gung ho charge attack. Aliens always choose the latter because they need it as soon as the marines have tech or even a base. Allow them to take it when they need it or watch people shun stealth becuase of the risk of not being able to get defence in time.
Bascially give early game abilities first then ones useful at higher levels later. Giving aliens one upgrade to the max in the early game is insane, most of it they cant use that early anyway and it gets countered so they have to have the second hive..etc. The chambers just need mixing
Alien upgrades should mirror Marine upgrades. Like Sensory enabling you to track moving targets. Movment enabling you to double your attack speed for the same energy cost as a normal attack.
I think defense actually needs to be toned down, too often you see one Alien holding off several Marines because they have a dozen D chambers behind them. If you limit the need for D chambers everywhere, then you would see several aliens holding off several marines and working together.
This is where my revolutionary idea comes in. What if you could "leech" health/armor from Offense Chambers? You could only leech 1/2 the chamber's HP, and once its at 1/2 HP no one else could withdraw any health or armor from it until it was above 1/2 HP again.
It makes perfect sense, the OC is organic, its not farfetched at all to think that Aliens could make some use of it when the need is there. Plus it would make other chambers more viable because you could still have frontline healing without needing a Gorge or D chamber nearby.
The problem can also be figured in thinking that Flayra wants shorter games. Now while the marine tech reflects that, with any tech they want available whenever, and every tech being 'active' (Meaning the marine does little if anything to take advantage of the upgrade), the alien tech is flawed and seems to be designed for longer games. Sure ambushes and cloak is nice but it takes TIME to get into position and take advantage of that. It takes time to surprise the enemy. And small maps and short games gives little opportunity to use that advantage.
Oh and motion tracking pretty much null and voids the aliens number 1 advantages: Ambushing, vents, wallwalking.
Maybe a solution would be to have passive regen for all alien lifeforms. The % can be tweaked or it can be made to be out of combat only (for example, 5 seconds after you get hit, regen kicks in). Take out regen and add another DC upgrade and you'd be able to go any one of the chambers. I also think that MCs should speed up RoF or movement or something (in the area around them, like DCs healing and sensories cloaking)
how about make a chambers beinifiting each race (onos, skulk, fade, gorge?-na ), or make an upgrade that dramastically increases the races abillity to survive or kill (like dc=regen/cara for skulk, movemnt= cerelity or silence, sc = focus/clocking) Just change the unused upgrades to actually benifite higher life forms. dont nerf, make them better, no one uses them anyway
and the marines will still have to adapt, get cara? lvl 1 weapons fast, otherwise, cerelity/silence? lvl 1 armor
marines endgame > aliens endgame, expecially with no dc or no mc
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> You simply cannot win without D chambers. You can with without any other chamber. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Sad but ture, Forlorn is damn right on this one! In any game, there will finally be the situation when you simply REQUIRE dc to stand a chance. And that's not nessesarily when the Heavies start moving. You MAY start with another chamber, and you may have a good start and pin down the enemy in their base, but eventually, you will either win by a rush that kills their IPs or you will take another hive to get DC
Comments
I see the same people say that "Guys, the other chambers can work too if the aliens know what they are doing," and yet in every clan match (for American's and Euro's) I've seen start with D chambers.
There is NO DENYING THAT D CHAMBERS ARE THE BEST IN 2.01. It's not the lazy chamber, it's not the win chamber, it is, <b>THE</b> chamber. You either have it or you don't, there aren't any other options.
You simply cannot win without D chambers. You can with without any other chamber.
NOTE: The following is all providing that you are playing against competent marines who can aim.
Ok its an upgrade chamber and provides more diverse styles of play. However people complain about how the other chambers don't offer the same level of benefit and so always chose def. If def is seen as the best chamber it will always be chosen, and as this thread says some will always see it as the best. I think the only way to avoid this is to remove def chambers. The argument for this is that they dont actually add any abilities to any of the aliens and don't really change the style of game one little bit. This chamber has become lame and in my opinion should be gone, at least for lifeforms, as wol backup they definetly have a role. The basic problem is that defense is one of the three chambers when it really shouldn't be.
It provides a logical counterpoint to marines' electricity - marines keep the aliens away through direct prevention, kharaa keep marines away through strengthening their defensive measures, be they scouting skulks or OC's.
It makes DC's much less important in the early game, since the nearest healing station is only as far as the nearest res node, negating the need for regeneration.
It makes static defences around resource nodes stronger, encouraging their use rather than the more popular 'plant a res and leave it' strategy.
As usual my suggestion is a Upgrade for a chamber other than DC that does this: Everytime you attack a marine with a melee attack and it hits, you get a % of that damage back as health. With each level that % increases. It doesn't have to be dramatic, like 50%, it could be just 5% or something, but it will definetly still be powerful. Because all you have to do is attack to regain health. How this would fit under MC or SC though, I really don't know.
mc, sc, are also good firsts, just becouse you must use your brain your not good with them doesn't make them bad.... <!--emo&::marine::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/marine.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='marine.gif'><!--endemo-->
Agreed, one of the worst things about NS is that marines for some stupid reason, have counters to <b>everything</b>, and aliens don't have any. Their 'counters' rely on the aliens to be more skilled then the marines, or to get their upgrades faster, which sometimes isn't possible.
The thing is, since lifeforms aren't tied to a hive, there's a chance if we're having trouble getting a hive, I can bring a regen onos in, who will have infintely more chances of success then just an MC onos, or god forbid, an SC onos. Basically, the DC is a reliable chamber, always able to help no matter what the conditions are.
I like MC most for celerity which is a boon for onos and fade, adreneline for gorge bilebomb, etc. It also has the 'teleport to hive' passive ability.
I'm not going to have onos and fade anytime before 5 minutes (Except under rare conditions). Nor will I have bilebomb without a second hive, and teleport to hive is pretty useless with only one hive. MC is definately <b>the</b> chamber to have at hive two.
If you remove the DC ,one of the solutions is to lower the cost for hives and add extra health/carapace per number of hives. Another approach is to strenghten the basic lifeforms from the start.
An entierly different approach (as has been suggested earlier in this thread) is to could drop the "defense, mobility, stealth"-theme and split carapace and regeneration, that way you have the choice of able skulks or fades. Though one could agrue that celerity/silence and (in 3.0) focus, are as good as carapace for skulks (and the skulk is the only lifeform that uses carapace atm).
Anyways, to round up the rambling: no, removing the DC isnt to cripple the khaara as it would go hand in hand with other changes.
[edit] this forum has some weird mechanics... [/edit]
If you remove the DC ,one of the solutions is to lower the cost for hives and add extra health/carapace per number of hives. Another approach is to strenghten the basic lifeforms from the start.
An entierly different approach (as has been suggested earlier in this thread) is to could drop the "defense, mobility, stealth"-theme and split carapace and regeneration, that way you have the choice of able skulks or fades. Though one could agrue that celerity/silence and (in 3.0) focus, are as good as carapace for skulks (and the skulk is the only lifeform that uses carapace atm).
Anyways, to round up the rambling: no, removing the DC isnt to cripple the khaara as it would go hand in hand with other changes.
[edit] this forum has some weird mechanics... [/edit] <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
Well, I suppose if you can find some reasonable way to compensate for it then it wouldn't be all that bad...
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Well, thats basically the idea of redemption, you shouldn't die.
And surprisingly, you can't do sod all damage with redempt skulk either. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
For attacking marines in their base, not really, it's not all useful, but if the marines are relatively near the hive, the redemp skulk is the zealot defender of the hive.
I have NEVER seen an alien win when someone went other than DC at the first and second hive (DC 3rd hive, never got there).
Unless you're playing against the most uncompetant marine team EVER they will counter your sensory with MT and GL their way to your base taking out any defenses with ease since you need a gorge everywhere to heal them and none of the higher lifeforms can regen effectively without a gorge (fade is a halfhearted attempt, metabolize = next to useless, I can blink back to the hive and full regen before I can get halfway back to full health with that crap. It should be 30-40% of total health back, not 30)
We can't get rid of DCs, so why not change them up.
Swap 1 or 2 of the Attacks around between SC, MC and DC. That way MC could have 1 of the DC abilities and SC could have a MC ability and so on. That way we dont have 1 BE ALL END ALL chamber.
Or better yet, just do what Forlorn said in that other thread.
We can't get rid of DCs, so why not change them up.
Swap 1 or 2 of the Attacks around between SC, MC and DC. That way MC could have 1 of the DC abilities and SC could have a MC ability and so on. That way we dont have 1 BE ALL END ALL chamber.
Or better yet, just do what Forlorn said in that other thread. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
The problem isn't 'DCs are overpowered'. The problem is 'Everything else completely and utterly sucks compared to DCs'. Swapping them up and around would cripple the aliens beyond hope.
One hive locked down would render fades and onos, or lerks, or gorges, or what-have-you useless because it can't get his 'ideal' upgrade that you used to get. It's also lead to even MORE fights about chambers then there are now (Well I want a Sensory chamber for Regen fade and ono!). In general it'd do more harm then help.
The ideal upgrades for an onos is Celerity and Regeneration.
The ideal upgrades for a fade is Celerity or Adreneline and Regeneration or Carapace (Arguable with metabolize)
For simplicity let's assume metabolize is a choice tool for the Fade in our case.
Gorge drops a sensory chamber for hive 1, because he wants his Fade to have Carapace (Which has been renamed to 'Bullet Dodge' or something). Unfortunately this completely pisses off the team member who wanted to go onos, or a gorge who wanted to rely on Redemption. Furthermore, this means that one SC upgrade is missing: Cloak, SoF, or Focus. So say Focus got moved to a Defense Chamber. So now you're not going to have focus until hive 2, and then it's too late for it.
So Hive 2 rolls around and the gorge goes fade and is enjoying his carapace and metabolize. He begs and his buddy drops three movement chambers, giving them celerity, adreneline, and redemption. Now your onos is only half as effective as he could be, but at least he has celerity. So now the selfish fade has *HIS* upgrades, at the expense of the rest of his team. At least with the current model you don't have to worry: Everyone with a defense chamber can choose THEIR armor upgrade of choice.
Fix the other upgrades first, then we'll talk. One easy and very effective change would be to turn Movement Chambers into phase gates instead of an ability that REQUIRES 2 hives to use.
But you know, I'm not a 3.0 playtester. Logical thought and foresight like this is impossible to have (Right Boggle?)
Agreed, one of the worst things about NS is that marines for some stupid reason, have counters to <b>everything</b>, and aliens don't have any. Their 'counters' rely on the aliens to be more skilled then the marines, or to get their upgrades faster, which sometimes isn't possible. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
The game is designed this way.
Part of the entire theme of NS was that aliens start off in the map with the map advantages, and upgrade advantages, etc. etc.
However, as per se the title, "Natural Selection," marines, being the crafty humans they are, must change the enviroment to their specifications and wants away from the aliens. Futhering this, marines must also counter whatever the aliens throw at them because marines are the ones who are masters of the enviroment and must prove it.
The gameplay was intended to be as such: Aliens came on the ground, and over time made the advantage theirs and must keep it, marines came on the ground and must quickly take it.
Go read the mapping guidelines or the manual if you do not believe me.
Agreed, one of the worst things about NS is that marines for some stupid reason, have counters to <b>everything</b>, and aliens don't have any. Their 'counters' rely on the aliens to be more skilled then the marines, or to get their upgrades faster, which sometimes isn't possible. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
The game is designed this way.
Part of the entire theme of NS was that aliens start off in the map with the map advantages, and upgrade advantages, etc. etc.
However, as per se the title, "Natural Selection," marines, being the crafty humans they are, must change the enviroment to their specifications and wants away from the aliens. Futhering this, marines must also counter whatever the aliens throw at them because marines are the ones who are masters of the enviroment and must prove it.
The gameplay was intended to be as such: Aliens came on the ground, and over time made the advantage theirs and must keep it, marines came on the ground and must quickly take it.
Go read the mapping guidelines or the manual if you do not believe me. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Aren't you the one (or someone did) who made a post in one of these threads about how if you balance so a mediocre skulk can kill a mediocre marine, that means that a super-skilled skulk can kill dozens of marines? The same logic applies to that. In theory, sure it sounds neat (BTW What the hell is a 'map advantage'? Maybe if the aliens started with more then 1 lousy res node you could call it an advantage...), but in practicality it's where the balance issues lie: Skilled marines facing inferior-powered skilled aliens will generally result in marines winning that fight. The only main way to compensate, aside from taking advantage of few chokepoints, or lazy marines not checking vents and ceilings and such, is defense chambers to even the odds.
say what?
say what? <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Last night I'm playing 7 on 7.
As an alien, I know exactly what all the tricks are, so I was lethal as a marine. Check the overheads, identify the hidden areas, and proceed with caution. That waypoint can wait. I encountered skulks and was able to successfully blow them away with my weapon upgrade, and also thanks to motion tracking. One obvious example of marine tech over-countering alien tech: they didn't stand a chance. I alone was able to get to the hive and build a PG in it (These weren't sucky skulks either, most were close enough to get a bite into me before I pistol whipped him. Thank god for a generous comm)
So sure one game might be an exception but these skulks didn't turely suck, I was just really good, and in addition to a few overcountering upgrades I constantly had an advantage over them, and advantage that was impossible to overcome because of the rediculous differences in tech trees.
NS is like playing Command and Conquer, except one team gets tanks, and the other doesn't get RPG troops or missile batteries to counter the tanks, but instead just gets lots and lots of really really cheap grunts to fling at the tanks and win by attrition.
Lets make this perfectly clear. The point of upgrade chambers is to provide upgrades i.e. extra abilities for the aliens. The real problem is that the aliens cannot adapt when the marines adopt the appropriate tech to nerf the aliens chosen upgrade.
So you take an offensive chamber?
When you lose your offensive skills youre a gonner unless youve already caused enough damage.
So you go with defense?
You may pull through becuase you can SURVIVE
<b>Please for gods sake stop counting existence as an ability!</b>
The only problem with the chambers is that you only get one type of ability per chamber. If the abilities were simply mixed so you got something to help both in containment and base attack and defending, wouldn't that be so much better?
That way aliens get to change their style of play without leaving themselves vulnerable or simply unable to harm enemy bases.
A much better idea for later hives is not to allow a different set of abilities which is not so much flawed as an invitation to boring routine. Instead they should negate the effect of the marines counter tech.
In this way it will be an arms race, however the marines will never be quite sure if the aliens have continued on the same tech pathway.
Other solutions where the current form of the chambers is kept must allow easy transition to another path, a similar idea to that outlined above but worse (i think), or full commitment of the aliens to that strategy, possibly for the game. Naturally the latter would mean removing defence as a chamber and its a replacement with some other defence system. Hit points for kills anyone?, a pretty stupid idea maybe but fun <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo--> I like the res healing station idea too.
In summary aliens must not be punnished for adapting to the tactics of the marines, you know it makes sense!
Bascially give early game abilities first then ones useful at higher levels later. Giving aliens one upgrade to the max in the early game is insane, most of it they cant use that early anyway and it gets countered so they have to have the second hive..etc. The chambers just need mixing
I think defense actually needs to be toned down, too often you see one Alien holding off several Marines because they have a dozen D chambers behind them. If you limit the need for D chambers everywhere, then you would see several aliens holding off several marines and working together.
This is where my revolutionary idea comes in. What if you could "leech" health/armor from Offense Chambers? You could only leech 1/2 the chamber's HP, and once its at 1/2 HP no one else could withdraw any health or armor from it until it was above 1/2 HP again.
It makes perfect sense, the OC is organic, its not farfetched at all to think that Aliens could make some use of it when the need is there. Plus it would make other chambers more viable because you could still have frontline healing without needing a Gorge or D chamber nearby.
Oh and motion tracking pretty much null and voids the aliens number 1 advantages: Ambushing, vents, wallwalking.
dont nerf, make them better, no one uses them anyway
and the marines will still have to adapt, get cara? lvl 1 weapons fast, otherwise, cerelity/silence? lvl 1 armor
marines endgame > aliens endgame, expecially with no dc or no mc
You simply cannot win without D chambers. You can with without any other chamber.
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Sad but ture, Forlorn is damn right on this one!
In any game, there will finally be the situation when you simply REQUIRE dc to stand a chance.
And that's not nessesarily when the Heavies start moving.
You MAY start with another chamber, and you may have a good start and pin down the enemy in their base,
but eventually, you will either win by a rush that kills their IPs or you will take another hive to get DC