ns is quite linear still, it doesnt get much better in 3.0
clocked oni is pretty bad against ha or lvl 3 anything, you will go down quite fast
and oni without adren or cerel is pretty bad too, they also go down quite quick either because a lack of engery, or to slow (adren + stomp is about the same as cerelity; gives you time to get away)
the reason why its mostly d - m - s is because... lerks without adren suck.. plain and simple, most lerks come about the time the 2nd hive comes up fades without adren are ok... not very good though (2nd hive)
skulks without cara or regen are ok... you can take out a lot more marines with cara or regen though (clocking is a one time use thing, you cant really get away, just hope the comm doesnt scan...)
so basically d = first hive and up m = 2nd hive aliens and up s = fun abilities that can be used without stress of the game
hes right, 80% of the servers are like this, youve got a very good chance of that happening, joining a clan isnt the answer either (some of us would like to think of it as the answer) but yes, finding a community is nice, join a clan is nice, etc etc the game isnt all about clans though
It is possible to balance the 3 chambers in theory, but in practice it would probably require a compleate remaking of the game. You would have to impliment new abilites and switch the order of the current ones, probably to the point that they make no sense in contect to the chambers they are alinged with.
Even once that is done, you now have to balance the abilities so that each ability is viable for each evolution in some situation, and doing that no doubt would cause imbalance in the chambers again that would once again have to be remedied. until eventually the cycle is compleated
At that point you would essentually have a new alien team, which, no doubt, would no longer be in perfect balance with the current marines, and therefore we have to rebalace marines, in such a way that does not cause our new aliens chambers and abilities to get out of balance; very likely quite a task to say the least.
If you think you have a quick fix, go ahead and post it. I doubt it could work for 3.0 for basicly the above listed reasons, but post none the less, and I'll try to pick it apart for you.
guys, if you want to make a DMS argument, start a new thread, that sounds like it'd be fun to participate with (I have a few opinions of my own that I won't say in this thread to keep it 'thinner')
As for finding a great pub with regulars, I used to say this all the time, but I believe that you have to try and look outside the box, if you really want this mod to survive. Especially since we're dealing with 2.0x, and not 1.04, I think we as a community used to be more forgiving back then, even though the game still wasn't complete (read info on the 1.0 release, it's basically an 'open beta').
New strategies probably <b>can</b> be viable, but it takes a marine/alien who can adapt, and sometimes you just don't have the brainpower or will to do so.
Be able to make all 3 chambers all the time, but only have 1 upgrade / hive location built (even if it is later destroyed.) This would mean the aliens wouldn't be handicaped if someone makes a sens and quits, and gives the team the versitility that the marines have.
Its hard enough to get people to put down 3 DC, so its not like your going to have 3 DC AND 3 MC AND 3SC at one hive just so people can have their favourite upgrade at one hive.
I don't think it would unbalance too much, but if it did then increasing the cost of sensories a res or 2 should compensate. ( these are the only chamber to be built in quanties of more than 3 normally)
What NS has become really isn't tech tree tactics anymore, it's more map tactics.
The paradise NS that we're thinking of would be based on: "what do we need to build and utilize?" The NS that we play as of right now is based on: "Okay, I got the structures up, where do we go next?"
Often times, because of the coherency of the marine command system, the marines end up sending their entire mass to a resource node, then the next, then the next. If they meet aliens, they will take a detour, and they will take advantage of their surroundings and the terrain (if that's the right word for a TSA spacecraft hallway). Their technology and posistion in the tech tree is more dependant on how much res they have, not what they perfer.
Aliens are less coherent. They usually start by spreading out and dropping node after node. If they meet the marine cluster, half of the skulks may wait in ambush while the other half keep on dropping nodes. A few may go for hives and plop themselves there until they can put up the hive. The alien tech tree is dependant on how many hives they have, and rarely does their tree sway from the DMS combo.
There's one problem with NS. The marines are focused on capturing resources, while the aliens want resources and hives. If the marines were given more incentive to capture a hive, they might actually go for the hive (as opposed to it being an afterthought). If they go for the hive, the battles become more pitched and the tech trees might morph.
The true problem with the tech tree however, is the palyers. There are a lot of elitist... people out there who will viciously tear apart people who want to try a different tech tree. I just experienced this in the last alien game I played. We went DSM in lost, and we ended up winning against HA's, but nobody respected the poor little guy who dropped the sensory.
*EDIT* Doomie... that's would be a great idea, except for one problem: it completely regulates the alien tech tree. They would always build all three pretty soon after spawn. If that could be fixed, it would be a good idea. Also, DC's are occasionally placed in quantaties of three or more near strong points, to heal the OCs in front of them.
<!--QuoteBegin--d0omie+Jan 3 2004, 12:42 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (d0omie @ Jan 3 2004, 12:42 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Be able to make all 3 chambers all the time, but only have 1 upgrade / hive location built (even if it is later destroyed.) This would mean the aliens wouldn't be handicaped if someone makes a sens and quits, and gives the team the versitility that the marines have.
Its hard enough to get people to put down 3 DC, so its not like your going to have 3 DC AND 3 MC AND 3SC at one hive just so people can have their favourite upgrade at one hive.
I don't think it would unbalance too much, but if it did then increasing the cost of sensories a res or 2 should compensate. ( these are the only chamber to be built in quanties of more than 3 normally) <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> No, if anything the sensory cost needs to go *down* because you have to place it around the map often to make it effective.
And this idea wouldnt work because you could build all three chambers everywhere.
Man, I hope they start getting back to applications so I can scrim some 3.0 <!--emo&???--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/confused.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='confused.gif'><!--endemo--> It looks kickass, even if there are balance issues.
If we want fresh exciting strategys why not simply change the design of the map? Randomly (read preset locations by map maker) spawning phase gates would serioulsy change the way each map is controlled. However for deeper issues like resource grabing, tech tree and dms something more radical would be required. Ofc you could just randomly give each team one of the technologys and not the others. If you want weird games this would create them. At the end of the day dependence on fixed locations and hl's basic maps just can't provide enogh complexity to keep things fresh, one tactic will always work better, and players will go for it unless ofc they can't. The carrot and stick, give players something new, ie new wormholes through the map and they will adapt. Remove their fredom of choice and they will adapt giveing radically different games. Just for the sheer entertainment value i would love to see truly random placement of phase gates in the level, the ends could even move. Where will it stop where will it end?...fun for all! <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin.gif'><!--endemo-->
Hang on a second this is version 2.1 not 1.0...dont we have loads of new maps now?....why the hell are the same tactics being used then? Tbh i don't know how to solve these issues unless you favour unpopular tech choices..in which case they become normal...constant change the only soulution...i dont know.
OK i think someone stumbled on the way to get rid of the DMS argumnet...just let them all be built at hive 1 this way u can have them all whenever. We already have all the evolutions at hive 1 why not all upgrades. Plus it would be hella expensive..if your gonna argue about having upgrades too quick. hmm i think i am gonna start a thread in S&I about this...
Do0mie i think it was your idea so go ahead and post it first if you want
<!--QuoteBegin--Ha.ze+Jan 2 2004, 07:41 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Ha.ze @ Jan 2 2004, 07:41 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> I've recently seen that its the same tatics being employed now over and over again on server after server. Its always defense, movement, sensory for aliens, and marines have the same old same old build order of IP's, armoury, TF, RT, arms, obs...
Nothing is changing in the field of tatics in NS anymore, it all just depends on how much "m4d sk1llz" the players have for each team and who will win. No more do commanders actually <i>give</i> orders to marines, but just place the structures in the monotonous order, supply the medpacks and occasionaly give an RT out to a whiny marine.
Just today I was playing on eclipse and had placed a TF in a corridor intersection by triad and powersub. This completly blocks off the aliens from comming that way and forces them to come around to the triad area to attack SSA and things beyond it, but of course the marines didnt approve and thought it was a major waste of res. If only those single marines had actually MOVED and listened to orders (wow theres a thought) instead of typing and yelling complaints about how "our commander sux" and "hes a nub", we might have actually been able to cap the remaining RT's, gathered res and attacked computer core (their only hive, eclipse was going up so that previous base was prepared for the aliens flooding in once its up).
Another game where we had placed movements on aliens instead of the same old defenses (still today). Most of the team (some were supportive) erupted with complaints and rage about "wh is teh nub gorge who put thm mvts down?!11." Despite the supportive players efforts for the team instead of complaining (IE most people put up RT's, even some who were complaining), the marines got a siege up within range of data. This was absolutly no problem as it was poorly defended and quickly established under haste, leaving many blind spots for the TF, and only two solem marines to guard it along with a phase. If half our team just got off their friggan **** and decided to actually HELP attack we would haev saved the hive and maybe won! But no, the hive was sieged and the morons blamed it on movements.
I blame it on lack of teamwork, which is really where NS is winding down to. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> i agree
but many people playing NS arent RTS players....
comms (and rts) people know the meaning of chokepoints, and getting bang for ur buck, locking down, rushing, holding locations, and ect....
Marines dont realize i have a reason for leaving 2 heavy/hmg's in a room with 5 turrets... because i NEED THAT ROOM....
They dont realize why i build a tf in some obscure place... because i want to try something...
they dotn realize why tram tunnel is so cool...
Relocating Tram tunnel is da bomb.....
hell... sitting in tram tunnel with one other guy (if aliens have feed) while ur team locks down refinery is the bomb...... hehehe u can get like 8 kills easy..
Comments
clocked oni is pretty bad against ha or lvl 3 anything, you will go down quite fast
and oni without adren or cerel is pretty bad too, they also go down quite quick either because a lack of engery, or to slow (adren + stomp is about the same as cerelity; gives you time to get away)
the reason why its mostly d - m - s is because...
lerks without adren suck.. plain and simple, most lerks come about the time the 2nd hive comes up
fades without adren are ok... not very good though (2nd hive)
skulks without cara or regen are ok... you can take out a lot more marines with cara or regen though (clocking is a one time use thing, you cant really get away, just hope the comm doesnt scan...)
so basically d = first hive and up
m = 2nd hive aliens and up
s = fun abilities that can be used without stress of the game
hes right, 80% of the servers are like this, youve got a very good chance of that happening, joining a clan isnt the answer either (some of us would like to think of it as the answer) but yes, finding a community is nice, join a clan is nice, etc etc
the game isnt all about clans though
Even once that is done, you now have to balance the abilities so that each ability is viable for each evolution in some situation, and doing that no doubt would cause imbalance in the chambers again that would once again have to be remedied. until eventually the cycle is compleated
At that point you would essentually have a new alien team, which, no doubt, would no longer be in perfect balance with the current marines, and therefore we have to rebalace marines, in such a way that does not cause our new aliens chambers and abilities to get out of balance; very likely quite a task to say the least.
If you think you have a quick fix, go ahead and post it. I doubt it could work for 3.0 for basicly the above listed reasons, but post none the less, and I'll try to pick it apart for you.
As for finding a great pub with regulars, I used to say this all the time, but I believe that you have to try and look outside the box, if you really want this mod to survive. Especially since we're dealing with 2.0x, and not 1.04, I think we as a community used to be more forgiving back then, even though the game still wasn't complete (read info on the 1.0 release, it's basically an 'open beta').
New strategies probably <b>can</b> be viable, but it takes a marine/alien who can adapt, and sometimes you just don't have the brainpower or will to do so.
Its hard enough to get people to put down 3 DC, so its not like your going to have 3 DC AND 3 MC AND 3SC at one hive just so people can have their favourite upgrade at one hive.
I don't think it would unbalance too much, but if it did then increasing the cost of sensories a res or 2 should compensate. ( these are the only chamber to be built in quanties of more than 3 normally)
Still large balancing would be required.
- RD
1k post w00t!
The paradise NS that we're thinking of would be based on: "what do we need to build and utilize?"
The NS that we play as of right now is based on: "Okay, I got the structures up, where do we go next?"
Often times, because of the coherency of the marine command system, the marines end up sending their entire mass to a resource node, then the next, then the next. If they meet aliens, they will take a detour, and they will take advantage of their surroundings and the terrain (if that's the right word for a TSA spacecraft hallway). Their technology and posistion in the tech tree is more dependant on how much res they have, not what they perfer.
Aliens are less coherent. They usually start by spreading out and dropping node after node. If they meet the marine cluster, half of the skulks may wait in ambush while the other half keep on dropping nodes. A few may go for hives and plop themselves there until they can put up the hive. The alien tech tree is dependant on how many hives they have, and rarely does their tree sway from the DMS combo.
There's one problem with NS. The marines are focused on capturing resources, while the aliens want resources and hives. If the marines were given more incentive to capture a hive, they might actually go for the hive (as opposed to it being an afterthought). If they go for the hive, the battles become more pitched and the tech trees might morph.
The true problem with the tech tree however, is the palyers. There are a lot of elitist... people out there who will viciously tear apart people who want to try a different tech tree. I just experienced this in the last alien game I played. We went DSM in lost, and we ended up winning against HA's, but nobody respected the poor little guy who dropped the sensory.
*EDIT* Doomie... that's would be a great idea, except for one problem: it completely regulates the alien tech tree. They would always build all three pretty soon after spawn. If that could be fixed, it would be a good idea. Also, DC's are occasionally placed in quantaties of three or more near strong points, to heal the OCs in front of them.
Its hard enough to get people to put down 3 DC, so its not like your going to have 3 DC AND 3 MC AND 3SC at one hive just so people can have their favourite upgrade at one hive.
I don't think it would unbalance too much, but if it did then increasing the cost of sensories a res or 2 should compensate. ( these are the only chamber to be built in quanties of more than 3 normally) <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
No, if anything the sensory cost needs to go *down* because you have to place it around the map often to make it effective.
And this idea wouldnt work because you could build all three chambers everywhere.
Ofc you could just randomly give each team one of the technologys and not the others. If you want weird games this would create them. At the end of the day dependence on fixed locations and hl's basic maps just can't provide enogh complexity to keep things fresh, one tactic will always work better, and players will go for it unless ofc they can't.
The carrot and stick, give players something new, ie new wormholes through the map and they will adapt. Remove their fredom of choice and they will adapt giveing radically different games.
Just for the sheer entertainment value i would love to see truly random placement of phase gates in the level, the ends could even move. Where will it stop where will it end?...fun for all! <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin.gif'><!--endemo-->
Hang on a second this is version 2.1 not 1.0...dont we have loads of new maps now?....why the hell are the same tactics being used then? Tbh i don't know how to solve these issues unless you favour unpopular tech choices..in which case they become normal...constant change the only soulution...i dont know.
Do0mie i think it was your idea so go ahead and post it first if you want
Nothing is changing in the field of tatics in NS anymore, it all just depends on how much "m4d sk1llz" the players have for each team and who will win. No more do commanders actually <i>give</i> orders to marines, but just place the structures in the monotonous order, supply the medpacks and occasionaly give an RT out to a whiny marine.
Just today I was playing on eclipse and had placed a TF in a corridor intersection by triad and powersub. This completly blocks off the aliens from comming that way and forces them to come around to the triad area to attack SSA and things beyond it, but of course the marines didnt approve and thought it was a major waste of res. If only those single marines had actually MOVED and listened to orders (wow theres a thought) instead of typing and yelling complaints about how "our commander sux" and "hes a nub", we might have actually been able to cap the remaining RT's, gathered res and attacked computer core (their only hive, eclipse was going up so that previous base was prepared for the aliens flooding in once its up).
Another game where we had placed movements on aliens instead of the same old defenses (still today). Most of the team (some were supportive) erupted with complaints and rage about "wh is teh nub gorge who put thm mvts down?!11." Despite the supportive players efforts for the team instead of complaining (IE most people put up RT's, even some who were complaining), the marines got a siege up within range of data.
This was absolutly no problem as it was poorly defended and quickly established under haste, leaving many blind spots for the TF, and only two solem marines to guard it along with a phase. If half our team just got off their friggan **** and decided to actually HELP attack we would haev saved the hive and maybe won! But no, the hive was sieged and the morons blamed it on movements.
I blame it on lack of teamwork, which is really where NS is winding down to. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
i agree
but many people playing NS arent RTS players....
comms (and rts) people know the meaning of chokepoints, and getting bang for ur buck, locking down, rushing, holding locations, and ect....
Marines dont realize i have a reason for leaving 2 heavy/hmg's in a room with 5 turrets... because i NEED THAT ROOM....
They dont realize why i build a tf in some obscure place... because i want to try something...
they dotn realize why tram tunnel is so cool...
Relocating Tram tunnel is da bomb.....
hell... sitting in tram tunnel with one other guy (if aliens have feed) while ur team locks down refinery is the bomb...... hehehe u can get like 8 kills easy..
its all about strategy
Aliens have strengths and weaknesses
Marines have strengths and weaknesses.....
the important thing is to exploit them
and do what ur comm says......
~Jason