Why Are The Aliens Always Nerfed?

EL_CHUPACABRAEL_CHUPACABRA Join Date: 2003-12-13 Member: 24324Members
In the new 3.0c..........

"O Lowered stomp stun duration from 2 seconds to 1 second"

Why? its perfect now, onos has "just" enough time to stomp and quickly swich to devour. Now using them together is nearly impossible, making devour almost useless for 95% of NS players. This just takes away more alien anti-HA power.

"O Reduced web potency by reducing min/max ensnare times from 4/10 to 2/5"

If so this needs to come back to 2nd hive and BB go to the lerk(so lerk can be a bomber maybe?)


This is just another example of how the aliens are continually made weaker and marines made stronger, <b>This is not the way to get balance!!!</b>

There are soooo many other things that can be done to balance the game other than nerfing aliens and helping the marines!!!!

Like for one making marines slightly more resistant to alien attacks at the higher armor levels, then add new HA and JP "seciallty suits. Then, you can get 4 different marine upgrades, regular HA and JP, and HA/GL and JP/GL. No longer having GL avalabe indvidually makes a Huge difference. Also, with specialty suits come different attributes. Regular HA and JP should come more resistant to bite, leap, slash, gore, and devour. And the HA/GL and JP/Gl should be more resistant to long range attacks. Blalancing this way tweeks the game instead of kicking it around.

Sorry for ranting but NS is a GREAT IDEA and I'm sick of good players leaving because of these reasons, please think more carefully in refining the game and don't just add/cut things without serious consideration first.
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Comments

  • WarfareWarfare Join Date: 2002-10-29 Member: 1697Members
    1 second stun does alot <i>for your teammates around you</i>.

    Of course, if you're alone, which you shouldn't be, you're in trouble if you stun someone.
  • SmikiesSmikies Join Date: 2003-07-27 Member: 18470Members
    wait, isnt 4/10, 2/5?<!--emo&???--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/confused.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='confused.gif'><!--endemo-->
  • SjNSjN Join Date: 2003-01-07 Member: 11983Members, Reinforced - Supporter
    welcome to the ns forums.

    and don't worry. Flayra has the things under control <!--emo&;)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/wink.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='wink.gif'><!--endemo-->
  • EL_CHUPACABRAEL_CHUPACABRA Join Date: 2003-12-13 Member: 24324Members
    Stun by it self is fine as you have pointed out, but as I said it kills the use for devour for 95% of NS players thus weakaning aliens by giving less anti-HA support
  • SjNSjN Join Date: 2003-01-07 Member: 11983Members, Reinforced - Supporter
    <!--QuoteBegin--EL CHUPACABRA+Dec 13 2003, 04:20 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (EL CHUPACABRA @ Dec 13 2003, 04:20 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Stun by it self is fine as you have pointed out, but as I said it kills the use for devour for 95% of NS players thus weakaning aliens by giving less anti-HA support <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
    you don't need to stomp to use devour. relax
  • Ashaman_JoeAshaman_Joe Join Date: 2003-11-11 Member: 22559Members, Constellation
    Or try using Teamwork Hax v 3.0c: Stomp the HA and let <b>your teammates</b> kill them.

    Trust us: It will be balanced by the time its released.
  • EL_CHUPACABRAEL_CHUPACABRA Join Date: 2003-12-13 Member: 24324Members
    I know you don't NEED stomp to use devour, but handicaping stomp makes devour much much less effective, thus hurt aliens overall.
  • DoL_ThunderDoL_Thunder Join Date: 2003-11-18 Member: 23152Members
    Give the developers a little credit. If its truly useless, they will beef it up again. Sometimes you need to do crazy things to better isolate and remove imbalances from the game. Maybe stomp got duration lowered because it has a HUGE range. If stomp proves to be too weak, they will probably nerf range and boost duration again.
  • LambdaProjectLambdaProject Join Date: 2002-02-20 Member: 230Members
    They aren't nerfed, chill out.
  • EL_CHUPACABRAEL_CHUPACABRA Join Date: 2003-12-13 Member: 24324Members
    edited December 2003
    I have not made my reasons for this thread clear enough, this is just the latest of many changes that favor marines in the game more than anything.

    As it stands if you have 2 good teams, the marines will win 90% of the time. Most of the time this is not so and it appears that the aliens always have the upper hand because that is where all the good players play to get away from the n00bs that usually go marines. But I am interested in the game being trully balanced and I have seen that bungled time and time again.
  • SjNSjN Join Date: 2003-01-07 Member: 11983Members, Reinforced - Supporter
    ok listen up.
    ns 2.1/3.0 went through a lot of changes, that's why there's no way you'll understand the balance changes happening today, until you actually play the game.
    every change is done for a reason. and after all it's beta, that means it can change back before the game released, and again, you will never understand why before you actually play it.
  • uranium_235uranium_235 Join Date: 2002-11-20 Member: 9478Banned
    edited December 2003
    <!--QuoteBegin--Warfare+Dec 13 2003, 02:17 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Warfare @ Dec 13 2003, 02:17 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> 1 second stun does alot <i>for your teammates around you</i>.

    Of course, if you're alone, which you shouldn't be, you're in trouble if you stun someone. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
    My question is: When and why the hell did aliens suddenly turn into the team that requires all the teamwork? 1.04 was marine teamwork alien solo and teamwork. It was always STRESSED that that was EXACTLY how Flayra wanted it.

    2.0 Gave all these goofy-**** 'support' abilities to the aliens and screwed up the marines so they both required teamwork and could solo.

    Now in 3.0 everything is getting nerfed, marines have grenades and catpacks, aliens are easier to hit and kill now, so it's Marine Solo / Teamwork and aliens NEED teammates all the time.



    What a freaking load of ****.
  • EL_CHUPACABRAEL_CHUPACABRA Join Date: 2003-12-13 Member: 24324Members
    I conceed that I am not a beta test, so in all fairness you may be right. But similar changes were proposed and enacted for 2.0 and 2.01. These changes all have the same trend which is benifical to marines over aliens.

    For example, I have never understood the logic behind moving acid rocket from 2 to 4. Aliens alread had a ranged attack disadvantage. Now I heard it is proposed to <i>remove</i> spike from the lerk alltogether, this leaves only pathetic spit!!!

    The lack of acid rocket force the relatively expensive fade to almost always have to use slash. To stay alive against HMG at say lvl2, the fade has to dodge 90% of the time verus attack, this is not effective at all.
  • WarriorWarrior Join Date: 2003-02-16 Member: 13624Members
    edited December 2003
    Its called "beta" if u guys didnt know. Theres that chance that it will be changed back. Maybe you should play the game before commenting on the balance. Anyways, lets wait and see how it plays. The onos has gotten a boost in hp/armor, 900/500 is the current level. I hardly call that a nerf.
    /edit: the lerk has new flying system which makes him a long range weapon. Why do u guys need long range weapons anyways.
  • EL_CHUPACABRAEL_CHUPACABRA Join Date: 2003-12-13 Member: 24324Members
    Yes it is a beta, but its been a beta before and now we have a screwed up game.

    the addtion of onos 900/500 was due to a much more realistic hitbox, its not a bonus to the aliens, its compenstaion for the new hit box, the onos will probably die in about the same amount of time under fire as it does now.
  • uranium_235uranium_235 Join Date: 2002-11-20 Member: 9478Banned
    <!--QuoteBegin--Warrior+Dec 13 2003, 02:52 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Warrior @ Dec 13 2003, 02:52 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Its called "beta" if u guys didnt know. Theres that chance that it will be changed back. Maybe you should play the game before commenting on the balance. Anyways, lets wait and see how it plays. The onos has gotten a boost in hp/armor, 900/500 is the current level. I hardly call that a nerf. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
    Considering the onos is now 6x larger and easier to hit...


    <!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->
    /edit:  the lerk has new flying system which makes him a long range weapon.  Why do u guys need long range weapons  anyways.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->

    Ever hear of those overpowered things called 'Level 3 upgrades'? Shotguns?
  • AaronAaron vroom vroom der party startah Join Date: 2002-11-05 Member: 7020Members
    I suggest that everybody who has not played it yet speculate wildly and hyperventilate.

    Yeah, that's the ticket...
  • Nemesis_ZeroNemesis_Zero Old European Join Date: 2002-01-25 Member: 75Members, Retired Developer, NS1 Playtester, Constellation
    Just for my interest, does anyone in here have reliable informations regarding alien - marine win ratios that do not originate from ones own imagination? Thought so.
    Furthermore, does anyone in here have reliable records of the statistical changes of win-loss ratios throughout the betas? I'm not surprised.

    What I'm getting at here - you are not the holder of the bright torch of knowledge, you merely have an opinion, as everyone of us. This doesn't mean that you have no right of voicing it, on the contrary, but it means that you should consider the possibility that your opinion isn't the correct one, especially if the only basis to it is your personal playing experience, which is bound to be biased, if only by the servers you play on.

    So, please, no matter what side of the fence you are on, switch one gear down, read through the other sides arguments again, and consider them before telling everyone how wrong they are.
  • uranium_235uranium_235 Join Date: 2002-11-20 Member: 9478Banned
    edited December 2003
    <!--QuoteBegin--Nemesis Zero+Dec 13 2003, 03:54 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Nemesis Zero @ Dec 13 2003, 03:54 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Just for my interest, does anyone in here have reliable informations regarding alien - marine win ratios that do not originate from ones own imagination? Thought so.
    Furthermore, does anyone in here have reliable records of the statistical changes of win-loss ratios throughout the betas? I'm not surprised.

    What I'm getting at here - you are not the holder of the bright torch of knowledge, you merely have an opinion, as everyone of us. This doesn't mean that you have no right of voicing it, on the contrary, but it means that you should consider the possibility that your opinion isn't the correct one, especially if the only basis to it is your personal playing experience, which is bound to be biased, if only by the servers you play on.

    So, please, no matter what side of the fence you are on, switch one gear down, read through the other sides arguments again, and consider them before telling everyone how wrong they are. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
    Nerfs or not, <b>no one</b> wants to have to re-learn how to play the game. If it isn't broken, why fix it? Webs are hive 3 DEFENSIVE measure. They SHOULD be overpowered. Nerfing it doesn't really solve anything except makes hive 3 even more underpowered then it already is. These bizarre nerfs just serve to irritate more then anything.

    Also, instead of aliens being a mix of over/underpowered crap like the marines are, it seems for some reason an absolute priority to completely nerf-balance aliens FIRST, so that everything they have is weak on the same level, then completely ignore the various issues such as: Aliens have little to no counters to HA. (Webs... uh... onos (Both of which have been nerfed) and suicidal skulks en masse) They have no ranged attacks that are effective until end-game. Level 3 weapons completely overwhelm carapace (As in: Level 3 weapons vs. level 3 carapace means the alien still takes more damage then with level 0 upgrade and level 0 carapace). There's plenty of ways to fix the game that include such things as: Oh I don't know, making watered-down advanced weapons appear in the game earlier?
  • SchmeebisSchmeebis Join Date: 2003-11-30 Member: 23782Members
    <!--QuoteBegin--Smikies+Dec 13 2003, 04:18 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Smikies @ Dec 13 2003, 04:18 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> wait, isnt 4/10, 2/5?<!--emo&???--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/confused.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='confused.gif'><!--endemo--> <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
    It's not a fraction, it's a range:

    changed min/max (min slash max) time from 4/10 to 2/5 (four slash ten to two slash five).
  • EL_CHUPACABRAEL_CHUPACABRA Join Date: 2003-12-13 Member: 24324Members
    Statistics aside, I see no good in some of these changes. I will not accecpt a "well wait and see because you don't know" response because this is not he first time NS has been modified in a way that helps marines.

    What I would like is a thread or forum that explains the reasoning behind some of these changes and then let the players give input on it.

    For instance I see no benifit to the stomp reduction time, but there must have been a reason to change it so what was the reason?
  • uranium_235uranium_235 Join Date: 2002-11-20 Member: 9478Banned
    edited December 2003
    <!--QuoteBegin--EL CHUPACABRA+Dec 13 2003, 04:07 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (EL CHUPACABRA @ Dec 13 2003, 04:07 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Statistics aside, I see no good in some of these changes.  I will not accecpt a "well wait and see because you don't know" response because this is not he first time NS has been modified in a way that helps marines.

    What I would like is a thread or forum that explains the reasoning behind some of these changes and then let the players give input on it. 

    For instance I see no benifit to the stomp reduction time, but there must have been a reason to change it so what was the reason? <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
    I know *WHY* stomp time was reduced (Too many whiney marines got their way, frankly), but 1 second isn't enough to devour a marine. A much better fix would have been to simply reduce stomp ROF. Stomp would be less spammy to use against groups of marines, and it would still be effective for a solonus. With the nerfed webs, they REALLY need to come back to hive 2. There's no sense in balancing what is meant to be unbalanced.
  • AltalAltal Join Date: 2003-06-27 Member: 17740Members
    edited December 2003
    I dont know about anyone else, but for me, when I fade, I always have Slash and Blink my two quick switches. im a hit and runner to the core, and ALWAYS use regen, and when fade...regen completely gets rid of the use of matabilize. thus making it kind of useless to me. some might say to get cara instead of regen, problem solved, but when i hit and run, the rines usually come after me. so im going to have to need my energy and my quick switch set. with regen, im healing as if with matabilize, and i have my quick switch set, and my energy can fill up again. and I NEVER get redempt because its just annoying to me, as it redeems you at the worst times usually, and I just dont trust my life with it. and in all truth, I dont see many fades using matabilize anymore either. using regen and matabilize at once doesnt speed it up either, since if you use matabilize regen stops working until you stop using matabilize. I think acid rocket should be a second hive move instead of matabilize. although it is true that matabilize would help when you have no dcs, come on, truthfully, Ive never seen a game where dcs were the 3rd upgrade. 2nd, sometimes, but never last.

    I dont know, this idea probably has a flaw in it somewhere, but I just dont think that acid rocket should be a third hive move. doesnt feel right.

    I was just commenting on what someone said earlier in this topic about acid rocket shouldnt be a third hive ability, I was agreeing with him, and saying why, basically.
  • uranium_235uranium_235 Join Date: 2002-11-20 Member: 9478Banned
    Did you just post in the wrong thread or did I click the wrong link?
  • Bad_HAL_9000Bad_HAL_9000 Join Date: 2003-10-14 Member: 21676Banned
    Dear flyra,

    Please stop nerfing the aliens.

    Thanks,
    Bad HAL
    <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif'><!--endemo-->
  • Jink_JinkJink_Jink Join Date: 2003-03-05 Member: 14348Members
    I was playtesting it today, and the 1 second is not a whole lot, but enouugh to get in, devour, and get out.
    It is also great if you have skulks with you, because you stomp stomp, and they go in and destroy the marines. 2 seconds was way too long, 1 second seems realy short, but it gets the job done.
  • SchmeebisSchmeebis Join Date: 2003-11-30 Member: 23782Members
    <!--QuoteBegin--EL CHUPACABRA+Dec 13 2003, 06:07 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (EL CHUPACABRA @ Dec 13 2003, 06:07 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Statistics aside, I see no good in some of these changes. I will not accecpt a "well wait and see because you don't know" response because this is not he first time NS has been modified in a way that helps marines.

    What I would like is a thread or forum that explains the reasoning behind some of these changes and then let the players give input on it.

    For instance I see no benifit to the stomp reduction time, but there must have been a reason to change it so what was the reason? <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
    Maybe you don't fully grasp the concept of "playtesting." There are several ways to do playtesting and balancing. One way is to examine how often each side wins, when each side is populated by generally evenly-matched players skill-wise.

    So you take the totality of abilities and powers for each side. For instance, a small subset of these for each side might be:

    Marines - HA, HMG, motion-tracking, shared res, structure cost
    Aliens - Stomp, umbra, hive-sight, skulk walking sound, hitbox

    So if, say, Marines are winning 58.21% of the time, one of those abilities should be nerfed or tweaked to bring the win percentage down to 50%. So maybe they go about fixing this by making 4 of the structures cost 10% more. Or making HA walk slower by 7.5%. Or making res-for-kill 1 point less, maximum.

    Or, say Aliens are winning 41.2% of the time. So maybe instead of making the marines less powerful, they enhance some alien abilities. Make stomp last longer, make umbra block 18.2% more bullets, or make the skulk's tail take locational double damage -- it doesn't matter, but the point is that they have a pool of attributes for each team to select from when making the game more even.

    Without knowing the specific situation, I'm guessing that Aliens were winning a bit too much in the previous 3.0 beta patch. So the developers and playtesters probably isolated a few factors that were causing the skewed wins and tried to adjust them accordingly, which leads to.....

    <b>MORE PLAYTESTING!</b>

    See the pattern? You can't just say on general principle that team attributes X, Y, and Z are the holy grail of the team, untouchable by anyone. Because that's how games become unbalanced and stale. It's the willingness to fundamentally and subtley alter the game for balance's sake that makes NS so damn good.
  • FlikFlik Join Date: 2003-09-28 Member: 21286Members
    <!--QuoteBegin--uranium - 235+Dec 13 2003, 05:02 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (uranium - 235 @ Dec 13 2003, 05:02 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Ever hear of those overpowered things called 'Level 3 upgrades'? Shotguns? <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
    Ever tried hitting a flying lerk with a shotty?
  • uranium_235uranium_235 Join Date: 2002-11-20 Member: 9478Banned
    edited December 2003
    <!--QuoteBegin--Flik+Dec 13 2003, 04:18 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Flik @ Dec 13 2003, 04:18 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin--uranium - 235+Dec 13 2003, 05:02 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (uranium - 235 @ Dec 13 2003, 05:02 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Ever hear of those overpowered things called 'Level 3 upgrades'? Shotguns? <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
    Ever tried hitting a flying lerk with a shotty? <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
    It has spread, I'm a good shot, and lerks now have to fly straight at me. I can't say it'd be much harder then it is already. Furthermore, lerks are 1 evolution out of 5 with 4 weapons out of 20, considering they only had the relatively decent ranged attack, it's been removed and spores are useless against HA that leaves hive 3 acid rocket, a difficult to use, and ineffective weapon. So saying the lerk is the end-all solution against range is just stupid, because I'm not going to waste a 60 res fade to turn into a 30 res lerk so that I might kill A marine carrying a 10 res shotgun. The other way, a 10 res shotgun toting marine doesn't have to worry about anything, because every alien has to get within 5 feet of Ol' Painless whereupon he gives them a facefull of overpowered buckshot.
  • LeetLlamaLeetLlama Join Date: 2003-08-27 Member: 20260Members
    <!--QuoteBegin--Ashaman Joe+Dec 13 2003, 04:24 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Ashaman Joe @ Dec 13 2003, 04:24 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Or try using Teamwork Hax v 3.0c: Stomp the HA and let <b>your teammates</b> kill them.

    Trust us: It will be balanced by the time its released. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
    Can't use the teamwork hax in 3.0, they removed the <b>wait;</b> command in macros....bwhahah I'm so funny.
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