<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Strange - I thought the Russians and the Chinese got on great - ex commie buddies and all that..... <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
IIRC they weren't too happy with each other after nixon busted up the communist bloc
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->You seriously think that if after the first Iraqi election, the winner was a fanatical cleric who ran on a campaign of "Kick the imperialist US pigs out of Iraq", the US would let him rule?! No frigging way. The US would claim the election was rigged, or say that it violated the US designed constitution. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I said conservative. Meaning holding traditional values over western values. I didn't say an extremist nut who calls americans pigs.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Nukes have stopped India and Pakistan from going to war. Those guys loathe one another. Nukes stopped the USSR and the USA from going to war. No love lost between them. Nukes stopped, and are still stopping, China and Russia from going to war. Those guys don't get along very well. What makes you think that nukes won't hold the Arabs at bay? It's not a question of desire, or motives. It's simply that no Arabic leader wants to see everything he has turned into radioactive vapour. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
We'll never know I suppose. If we did cut off aid and trade, then we'd just have to wait and see.
<!--QuoteBegin--Ryo-Ohki+Dec 8 2003, 08:18 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Ryo-Ohki @ Dec 8 2003, 08:18 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> This isn't even Mutually Assured Destruction; it's Arabic Assured Destruction. Once again, the Arabs know this. And that's why all they'll do is send some funding to terrorist groups and Palestinian suicide bombers, just like they do now. If the US was to withdraw tommorow, nothing would change. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Yes it is now, but what if, no I should say what will happen WHEN an Arabic country (besides Pakistan) gets its own nukes? What would happen is because Israel is such a small country and nukes have a 25 mile radius (granted that by the 25th its just a bit of wind) with just a handful of nukes snuck in through trucks to major population centers and nuclear silos/stockpiles Israel could be completely obliterated before they even have a chance to fire a shot. However, with Israel's intteligence force they may see that a country is building nuclear weapons. They would call the UN but the country probably wouldn't let them in and they would just give up. Israel, now having no other choice will try to destroy the nuclear facilities with conventional missiles, of course Israel would know that it couldn't have got them all and will attack and occupy the offender. If it was one of the more stable countries like SA or Egypt the rest of the world would get ****. Most of Israel's military might has now been lost or is stuck intensely occupying another country. The remaining countries will probably attack and now Israel's only defense is nuclear weapons.
<!--QuoteBegin--Burncycle+Dec 8 2003, 11:42 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Burncycle @ Dec 8 2003, 11:42 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> mean that Israel would use them with full effeciency, meaning they would nuke cities, not armies.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
First of all, who is to say that the most efficient use of nuclear weapons is against cities? What experience do you have the matter? Secondly, what has made you come to the conclusion that the israelis would nuke cities, not armies? What did you base this on? Again, you should probably not assume when it comes to something you know little about. Giving your opinion is fine: "I would think they would nuke cities, not the enemy military, because it kills population and discourages the enemy" would be a good statement to make. Compare that to the statement you actually made. See the difference? One will take what you say more seriously when you word it appropriately. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> Well SORRY if I don't add imo in front of my every sentence <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo--> However you have to agree that it's highly probable that if Israel would like to stop an enemy nation on its tracks, it would nuke the cities. Or better yet, cities and armies. They have enough nukes to destroy the whole world, I assume Egypt/Syria/Whatever wouldn't be suicidal enough to attack Israel. Like stated before, they actually thought they could handle themselves against Israel back in 1960/70. Now they know they have no chance.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->**** hypocrites. I never said israel was without blame or perfect, they've done some crappy stuff too, but when people cry in outrage over what israel does, yet blatently ignores (or excuses) the surrounding countries when it does similar things if not worse atrocities, it frankly pisses me off.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I'm glad I never cried in outrage over what Israel does <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo--> Yeah, they're all bad. Let's allow them **** eachother and mind our own business. Honestly I don't care so much about Israel or arabs or chinese or russians or americans. Thousands of people die every year. Billions have died and billions will die. Seriosuly, does it matter if Israel kills all the palestinians or Egypt invades Israel? Does something change in the process? Maybe I'm just a weirdo but I don't have that thing called 'love for mankind'.
<!--QuoteBegin--Eviscerator+Dec 9 2003, 02:48 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Eviscerator @ Dec 9 2003, 02:48 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> 3 letters, Ryo: oil. Without control over it, our nation will be at the mercy of these countries which can dictate the price of oil by simply shutting down production for a week or two. Wall Street was on pins and needles when this latest Iraq war flared up, as they were anticipating its effect on oil prices. We had to get in there really quickly and make sure production was not halted less we wished to create a shortage and extreme price inflation. All the same, production did take a dip and we got hit with a price hike.
The US will run out of its own oil in the next decade, assuming the present extraction rate and no future miracle discovery. If we choose to remain dependent on a non-renewable fossil fuel, we will continue to have to trade with foreign countries to get it. Americans consume 25% of all the oil output each year. In terms of size of proven oil reserves, you've got the following (in order:) Saudia Arabia, Iraq, United Arab Emirates, Kuwait, and Iran. After the Middle East, the next big thing is the Caspian Sea area, which supposedly contains some 200 billion barrels. Just it's harder to extract since the terrain is more rugged and (till now) politcally unfeasible. A pipeline that leads from the Caspian area (Turkmenistan) across... tada... Afghanistan down to Pakistan is presently in the works. The US company known as Unocal owns the largest stake in this pipeline. They wanted to build one for years, but the darned Taliban kept messing with their plans.
For me, the answer to this problem about oil is simple: remove the dependency altogether! Start spending some serious cash on finding viable alternatives that are renewable. We put together the greatest minds on the planet to develop the nuclear weapon in just a few years' time. We could do the same to solve this problem. Except no one seems to really want to do that. Definitely won't ever happen with our current administration. When will we realize that the oil crash is coming? <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> I agree with every damn thing you said in this post. Oil is old and outdated for a country of the USA's size and power. We should have had other sources of energy developed long ago, in fact I remember hearing a story about an oil company killing off a scientist who was very close to getting something like hydrogen fuel cells to work, but I don't want to get into conspiracy theories. I have no love for the big oil companies I personally think they are holding this country back for their own financial gain. But hey I like the Bush administration so I'm sure some people would call me a hypocrite.
I just thought the fact I agreed with an entire post Evis made was worth mentioning <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif'><!--endemo-->
<!--QuoteBegin--reasa+Dec 9 2003, 03:59 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (reasa @ Dec 9 2003, 03:59 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> I just thought the fact I agreed with an entire post Evis made was worth mentioning <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif'><!--endemo--> <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> Well then, I'll just have to go back in there and add something to disagree with <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo-->
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Strange - I thought the Russians and the Chinese got on great - ex commie buddies and all that..... <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
The initial reason for the hostility between these two guys was the Sino-Soviet split that occured in 1955. In the post-Stalin era the rest of the Poliburo in Russia was destroying Stalin;s "cult of personality" that had effectively made him into a demi-god. Mao in China got very upset and worried about this, perhaps because he was doing exactly the same thing as Stalin. Russia advisors were withdrawn from China in 1955 and from then on the two countries greatly disliked each other. China's first ICBMs were placed in he far north west of China so they could hit Moscow and the Chinese-Russian border was, and remains, one of the most heavily fortified and manned borders in the world.
In response to an Arabic nation developing nukes, such as say Iran, there are a number of possible outcomes. Firstly, Israel would probably try and destroy the facilities themselves, like they did with they destroyed Iraq's nuclear reactors in 1980. This would cause international outcrys, but Israel has never really cared about that kind of thing. Secondly, the US might invade and destroy the nukes. Given the Iraq action, this would seem to be more and more likely. Thirdly, the nation might get them and hold onto them. Fouthly, the nation might get them and some leak out, subsequently used against Israel or another western target.
I personally believe that the first 3 scenarios are far more likely than the 4th. Russia has been a wreck for over a decade, and yet despite 25,000 odd nukes sitting around in Russia, no nuclear terrorism has occured. Of course, this is all speculation and no-one can prove it one way or the other as to what would happen if some Arab country got nukes. I guess we can just wait and see.
When I saw this news item flash across my pager last week, I thought it might turn up in lots of other places, like CNN, ABCNews, etc. Of course, it didn't. It did appear, however, in the LA Times. Not surprisingly, there is a strong effort out there to boycott the LA Times, for their apparent "anti-Israel" stance. Apparently you can't say anything even remotely close to negative about Israel without drawing intense opposition.
<a href='http://www.geocities.com/truthmasters/jointheboycott.htm' target='_blank'>Join the boycott</a>
<!--QuoteBegin--Eviscerator+Dec 11 2003, 07:13 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Eviscerator @ Dec 11 2003, 07:13 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Apparently you can't say anything even remotely close to negative about Israel without drawing intense opposition.
<a href='http://www.geocities.com/truthmasters/jointheboycott.htm' target='_blank'>Join the boycott</a> <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> Now come on, some 40 year old Jewish woman’s geocities site is hardly intense opposition. That site did however make me laugh out loud, you really have to wonder what it means by "...and beyond" <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.natural-selection.org/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif'><!--endemo-->
Comments
IIRC they weren't too happy with each other after nixon busted up the communist bloc
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->You seriously think that if after the first Iraqi election, the winner was a fanatical cleric who ran on a campaign of "Kick the imperialist US pigs out of Iraq", the US would let him rule?! No frigging way. The US would claim the election was rigged, or say that it violated the US designed constitution. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I said conservative. Meaning holding traditional values over western values. I didn't say an extremist nut who calls americans pigs.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Nukes have stopped India and Pakistan from going to war. Those guys loathe one another. Nukes stopped the USSR and the USA from going to war. No love lost between them. Nukes stopped, and are still stopping, China and Russia from going to war. Those guys don't get along very well. What makes you think that nukes won't hold the Arabs at bay? It's not a question of desire, or motives. It's simply that no Arabic leader wants to see everything he has turned into radioactive vapour. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
We'll never know I suppose. If we did cut off aid and trade, then we'd just have to wait and see.
This isn't even Mutually Assured Destruction; it's Arabic Assured Destruction. Once again, the Arabs know this. And that's why all they'll do is send some funding to terrorist groups and Palestinian suicide bombers, just like they do now. If the US was to withdraw tommorow, nothing would change. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Yes it is now, but what if, no I should say what will happen WHEN an Arabic country (besides Pakistan) gets its own nukes? What would happen is because Israel is such a small country and nukes have a 25 mile radius (granted that by the 25th its just a bit of wind) with just a handful of nukes snuck in through trucks to major population centers and nuclear silos/stockpiles Israel could be completely obliterated before they even have a chance to fire a shot. However, with Israel's intteligence force they may see that a country is building nuclear weapons. They would call the UN but the country probably wouldn't let them in and they would just give up. Israel, now having no other choice will try to destroy the nuclear facilities with conventional missiles, of course Israel would know that it couldn't have got them all and will attack and occupy the offender. If it was one of the more stable countries like SA or Egypt the rest of the world would get ****. Most of Israel's military might has now been lost or is stuck intensely occupying another country. The remaining countries will probably attack and now Israel's only defense is nuclear weapons.
First of all, who is to say that the most efficient use of nuclear weapons is against cities? What experience do you have the matter? Secondly, what has made you come to the conclusion that the israelis would nuke cities, not armies? What did you base this on? Again, you should probably not assume when it comes to something you know little about. Giving your opinion is fine: "I would think they would nuke cities, not the enemy military, because it kills population and discourages the enemy" would be a good statement to make. Compare that to the statement you actually made. See the difference? One will take what you say more seriously when you word it appropriately. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
Well SORRY if I don't add imo in front of my every sentence <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo--> However you have to agree that it's highly probable that if Israel would like to stop an enemy nation on its tracks, it would nuke the cities. Or better yet, cities and armies. They have enough nukes to destroy the whole world, I assume Egypt/Syria/Whatever wouldn't be suicidal enough to attack Israel. Like stated before, they actually thought they could handle themselves against Israel back in 1960/70. Now they know they have no chance.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->**** hypocrites. I never said israel was without blame or perfect, they've done some crappy stuff too, but when people cry in outrage over what israel does, yet blatently ignores (or excuses) the surrounding countries when it does similar things if not worse atrocities, it frankly pisses me off.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I'm glad I never cried in outrage over what Israel does <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo--> Yeah, they're all bad. Let's allow them **** eachother and mind our own business. Honestly I don't care so much about Israel or arabs or chinese or russians or americans. Thousands of people die every year. Billions have died and billions will die. Seriosuly, does it matter if Israel kills all the palestinians or Egypt invades Israel? Does something change in the process? Maybe I'm just a weirdo but I don't have that thing called 'love for mankind'.
The US will run out of its own oil in the next decade, assuming the present extraction rate and no future miracle discovery. If we choose to remain dependent on a non-renewable fossil fuel, we will continue to have to trade with foreign countries to get it. Americans consume 25% of all the oil output each year. In terms of size of proven oil reserves, you've got the following (in order:) Saudia Arabia, Iraq, United Arab Emirates, Kuwait, and Iran. After the Middle East, the next big thing is the Caspian Sea area, which supposedly contains some 200 billion barrels. Just it's harder to extract since the terrain is more rugged and (till now) politcally unfeasible. A pipeline that leads from the Caspian area (Turkmenistan) across... tada... Afghanistan down to Pakistan is presently in the works. The US company known as Unocal owns the largest stake in this pipeline. They wanted to build one for years, but the darned Taliban kept messing with their plans.
For me, the answer to this problem about oil is simple: remove the dependency altogether! Start spending some serious cash on finding viable alternatives that are renewable. We put together the greatest minds on the planet to develop the nuclear weapon in just a few years' time. We could do the same to solve this problem. Except no one seems to really want to do that. Definitely won't ever happen with our current administration. When will we realize that the oil crash is coming? <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I agree with every damn thing you said in this post. Oil is old and outdated for a country of the USA's size and power. We should have had other sources of energy developed long ago, in fact I remember hearing a story about an oil company killing off a scientist who was very close to getting something like hydrogen fuel cells to work, but I don't want to get into conspiracy theories. I have no love for the big oil companies I personally think they are holding this country back for their own financial gain. But hey I like the Bush administration so I'm sure some people would call me a hypocrite.
I just thought the fact I agreed with an entire post Evis made was worth mentioning <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif'><!--endemo-->
I just thought the fact I agreed with an entire post Evis made was worth mentioning <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif'><!--endemo--> <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
Well then, I'll just have to go back in there and add something to disagree with <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo-->
<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
The initial reason for the hostility between these two guys was the Sino-Soviet split that occured in 1955. In the post-Stalin era the rest of the Poliburo in Russia was destroying Stalin;s "cult of personality" that had effectively made him into a demi-god. Mao in China got very upset and worried about this, perhaps because he was doing exactly the same thing as Stalin. Russia advisors were withdrawn from China in 1955 and from then on the two countries greatly disliked each other. China's first ICBMs were placed in he far north west of China so they could hit Moscow and the Chinese-Russian border was, and remains, one of the most heavily fortified and manned borders in the world.
In response to an Arabic nation developing nukes, such as say Iran, there are a number of possible outcomes. Firstly, Israel would probably try and destroy the facilities themselves, like they did with they destroyed Iraq's nuclear reactors in 1980. This would cause international outcrys, but Israel has never really cared about that kind of thing. Secondly, the US might invade and destroy the nukes. Given the Iraq action, this would seem to be more and more likely. Thirdly, the nation might get them and hold onto them. Fouthly, the nation might get them and some leak out, subsequently used against Israel or another western target.
I personally believe that the first 3 scenarios are far more likely than the 4th. Russia has been a wreck for over a decade, and yet despite 25,000 odd nukes sitting around in Russia, no nuclear terrorism has occured. Of course, this is all speculation and no-one can prove it one way or the other as to what would happen if some Arab country got nukes. I guess we can just wait and see.
<a href='http://www.geocities.com/truthmasters/jointheboycott.htm' target='_blank'>Join the boycott</a>
<a href='http://www.geocities.com/truthmasters/jointheboycott.htm' target='_blank'>Join the boycott</a> <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
Now come on, some 40 year old Jewish woman’s geocities site is hardly intense opposition.
That site did however make me laugh out loud, you really have to wonder what it means by "...and beyond" <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.natural-selection.org/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif'><!--endemo-->