Now you have to wonder, if these families are so "well to do" why do they need all this money. I remember a while back seeing a tape of a Palestinian mother who seemed all too happy her son/daughter (I can't remember) blew him/herself up. That’s just, for a lack of better words, messed up! Stop trying to justify it because you have a vendetta against Israel. If they wanted to destroy the Palestinians they easily could, if you notice Palestinian attacks only bring retributions from Israel and cause more suffering. You think these "intelligent" people would realize that.
Also the fact Israel has nukes has nothing to do with the Palestinians, nuking them would be like going after a fly in your own home with a bazooka. <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.natural-selection.org/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif'><!--endemo--> <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
1. I have already proven in another thread that Fox news is notorious for giving bad and misleading information to its viewers. 2. Postnews.com is a Jewish discussion group. Pay close attention to their own disclaimer: <a href='http://www.postevents.com/asp1/main/legal_disclaimer.asp' target='_blank'>Information Disclaimer</a>
<i>"Accuracy and Quality of the Information. The Vendor makes no claims as to the accuracy or quality of the Information. Be aware there are a variety of factors that contribute to bad Information, including: many different people provide Information, they are not trained on providing Information, they are located all over the world and may not be native English speakers, the Information changes frequently, people may forget to make changes when Information changes, people make mistakes, some people have bad intentions. Information is often inaccurate, and can be harmful and dangerous. Use your own judgement and check the source."</i>
3. Even if their claim ends up being true, the story makes it clear that it is not the Palestinians asking for cash. They do not provide any evidence whatsoever that money is a <b>motive</b> for the terrorists. The Saudis may be sending money, but where is the evidence that it's actually a motive? You cannot make a statement such as "they need this cash" unless you provide direct evidence that they themselves are financially motivated. I have shown you direct scientific evidence... interviews and long-term anthropological research... that terrorist motives are directly opposite of what you think they are. These doctors and scientists have interviewed the families themselves and have done extensive cultural analysis into their motives and methodology. The interviewee has himself spent time with an extremist. You have not provided any such research or pre-suicide interviews showing that a single Palestinian has been motivated to kill himself so his family can get paid by Saudi elite. Money is not the motive; their political statement against Israeli occupation is.
You may think it is not wise to blow yourself up, and many would agree with you since it's extremely hard for Americans to fully understand other cultures and situations. But if put into an oppressive situation with nothing but rocks and shoes to throw at their enemy's tanks, they too might decide to start resorting to more drastic measures. It is an unfair fight, and suicide bombing is a result of this huge imbalance. I for one surely wouldn't give up just because my enemy has more powerful and effective weapons than I, especially if I was really devout in my beliefs. Most Americans have not done any research at all into <b>why</b> terrorists do what they do. Instead, they simply take on the opinion of what their media gives them, even if it happens to be wrong (thank you Fox news.) I have two threads now showing you that these beliefs are wrong and are some incredible misunderstandings.
4. Israel has all kinds of Arabic enemies, I was not referring to just Palestinians but people from all over Arabia. Iraq, Iran, Saudi Arabia, Yemen, Afghanistan, you name it. Israel does not have nukes so they can destroy New Zealand if need be. These same countries are the ones we are now bombing, and occupying.
5. My goal is not to justify terrorism, but to bring about an understanding of motives and rationale to try and understand <i>why</i> things happen the way they do. My reason is simple: the majority of Americans are profoundly ignorant and misinformed when it comes to their understanding of other cultures and foreign affairs. The reasons for this are very easy to understand. Media misinformation, apathy, consumerism, stubborness, arrogance, and denial. All the same reasons the rest of the world thinks we're a bunch of idiots (they're right.) Trying to overcome those reasons will be very difficult, but I will not cease. It is only through understanding and analysis into the root causes of problems that we can hope to find a lasting, peaceful solution to those problems. Going to war and killing tens of thousands of Muslims by destroying Arabic countries only to fight for Israel's existence is making the problem much, much, much worse. Our actions right now are so detrimental to the long-term stability of US/Israel -> Arabic relations that we are not only compounding the problem but fostering an environment for new generations of terrorists. This, by the way, is exactly what Israel wants. Israel does not want peace for Muslims, they want Arabs dead. Continued Muslim extremism will only further enhance the flawed belief that the Muslim world is just a bunch of "insane, poor, and uneducated lunatics looking to make a buck for their family." That is incredibly apalling to me. These wars will continue to happen for years to come so long as Americans remain ignorant about and apathetic to what is really happening. We need to wake up.
"The problems that exist in the world cannot be solved by the level of thinking that created them." - Albert Einstein
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Let me pose you a question reesa. I assume you live in the US, but if you don't just insert your country's name in it's place. Your nation is invaded. Large sections of your land lies under the control of a foreign power. This occupation force frequently sends large numbers of tanks and troops into your cities where they destroy infrastructure and kill people. Yesterday one of your friends was killed throwing a rock at one of the invader's tanks. What are you going to do?<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> I don't know what the heck you'd do, but I sure as hell wouldn't go throwing rocks at a tank.
I see the pattern that perhaps they don't see.
Country invaded. Those resisting are dead. My friends resisting are dead. Anybody who lifts a finger at them are dead. So what would I do?
I'll be damned if I'm going to get myself killed "in the name of nationalism." That's suicide. Strapping a bomb to my chest and killing a couple marines ain't gonna make one bit of difference in the long run! How can you not see that?
hawkeye, ok, so you wouldnt resist the invasion or fight the tanks. But what would you do when the bulldozers came to your house? you cant ignore being homeless.
To me, it isn't even an choice. Surviving is the goal. Fighting will do nothing but get me killed. It's as good as putting a gun to my head and firing. So why put a gun to my head and fire when a bulldoser wrecks my house?
"Give me liberty or give me death." - Patrick Henry
I dunno about every American, but I'd say most of them would not just cave in to their oppressors and let their homes be demolished. If you don't want to resort to extreme measures like suicide bombings, what other options are there? Perhaps people are now more able to truly understand how desperate these people are, and what kind of situation they are put into. Unfortunately, we're not making the environment and variables any better, we are only making them worse. Short of killing all Muslims that have a brain, this current ideology is simply not going to bring about peace. Then again, it might just be that we've embarked upon the "Final Solution to the Muslim problem."
The thing is ryo, israelis AREN'T killing everyone willy nilly. They're very restrictive in their rules of engagement. The palestinians extremists (notice I didn't say the general populace) are not as restrictive.
For instance, SOP for rock throwers is to button up and ignore them (from one of the guys I know in the israeli military). They're only to be engaged if they pose a threat. Hundreds of situations like this will occur without incident. Then one day a kid tries to take ammo off a tank, or someone runs by with an RPG. When the tank engages and a bystander gets hit, it's all over the media. Suddenly they're killing innocent palestinians on purpose cuz they're "mean" or some other horsesh*t. Gee. Life ain't easy if you're not the underdog.
On the other hand, I don't agree with them bulldozing homes either.
<!--QuoteBegin--Eviscerator+Dec 7 2003, 07:32 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Eviscerator @ Dec 7 2003, 07:32 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> 1. I have already proven in another thread that Fox news is notorious for giving bad and misleading information to its viewers.3. Even if their claim ends up being true, the story makes it clear that it is not the Palestinians asking for cash. They do not provide any evidence whatsoever that money is a <b>motive</b> for the terrorists. The Saudis may be sending money, but where is the evidence that it's actually a motive? You cannot make a statement such as "they need this cash" unless you provide direct evidence that they themselves are financially motivated. I have shown you direct scientific evidence... interviews and long-term anthropological research... that terrorist motives are directly opposite of what you think they are. These doctors and scientists have interviewed the families themselves and have done extensive cultural analysis into their motives and methodology. The interviewee has himself spent time with an extremist. You have not provided any such research or pre-suicide interviews showing that a single Palestinian has been motivated to kill himself so his family can get paid by Saudi elite. Money is not the motive; their political statement against Israeli occupation is.
You may think it is not wise to blow yourself up, and many would agree with you since it's extremely hard for Americans to fully understand other cultures and situations. But if put into an oppressive situation with nothing but rocks and shoes to throw at their enemy's tanks, they too might decide to start resorting to more drastic measures. It is an unfair fight, and suicide bombing is a result of this huge imbalance. I for one surely wouldn't give up just because my enemy has more powerful and effective weapons than I, especially if I was really devout in my beliefs. Most Americans have not done any research at all into <b>why</b> terrorists do what they do. Instead, they simply take on the opinion of what their media gives them, even if it happens to be wrong (thank you Fox news.) I have two threads now showing you that these beliefs are wrong and are some incredible misunderstandings.
5. My goal is not to justify terrorism, but to bring about an understanding of motives and rationale to try and understand <i>why</i> things happen the way they do. My reason is simple: the majority of Americans are profoundly ignorant and misinformed when it comes to their understanding of other cultures and foreign affairs. The reasons for this are very easy to understand. Media misinformation, apathy, consumerism, stubborness, arrogance, and denial. All the same reasons the rest of the world thinks we're a bunch of idiots (they're right.) Trying to overcome those reasons will be very difficult, but I will not cease. It is only through understanding and analysis into the root causes of problems that we can hope to find a lasting, peaceful solution to those problems. Going to war and killing tens of thousands of Muslims by destroying Arabic countries only to fight for Israel's existence is making the problem much, much, much worse. Our actions right now are so detrimental to the long-term stability of US/Israel -> Arabic relations that we are not only compounding the problem but fostering an environment for new generations of terrorists. This, by the way, is exactly what Israel wants. Israel does not want peace for Muslims, they want Arabs dead. Continued Muslim extremism will only further enhance the flawed belief that the Muslim world is just a bunch of "insane, poor, and uneducated lunatics looking to make a buck for their family." That is incredibly apalling to me. These wars will continue to happen for years to come so long as Americans remain ignorant about and apathetic to what is really happening. We need to wake up.
<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Fox news makes mistakes like all other news networks, if you don't trust them thats fine, but that does not make my evidence any less reliable.
As for not being finically motivated, I wouldn't be a hundred percent sure all of them aren't
<a href='http://www.usatoday.com/news/world/2002/04/22/cover.htm' target='_blank'>http://www.usatoday.com/news/world/2002/04...04/22/cover.htm</a> "A promise of financial payoffs to the families of bombers is another powerful incentive, Ganor says. Jaber confirms that cash payments from Iraq and other Arab countries go to these families, many in desperate need of money, after the suicide-bombing mission. Iraqi President Saddam Hussein has offered to pay $25,000 to the family of each Palestinian suicide bomber as an incentive for others to volunteer for martyrdom.
"It's being paid and directly to the families," Jaber says.
"These people have lost their dear, beloved loved ones. They are desperate," he says.
Money aside, a crucial motivator is the notion that martyrdom is a ticket to everlasting happiness in the afterlife, Ganor says. Muslim men who volunteer to strap on explosives are promised unlimited sex with 72 virgins in the spirit world, he says.
"Even the women believe this. Not in the 72 virgins business, but that they are going to gain their place in heaven," Ganor says. "Islamic leaders brainwash their constituency, telling them that this is a duty to God. You cannot persuade any Western-culture person to commit that act."
Now you can't prove to me that some of them didn't do it to get money for their families, hell I wouldn't be surprised to see some parents egging their kids on, who knows. I included the religious bit to show another reason why they may be motivated to it, which speaks for it's self. Now I find it hard to believe how any "intelligent" person could believe this, but hey I don't live in a hut with a bull dozer in my backyard because my cousin wanted to "make a point".
These are not intelligent wealthy aristocrats that just happen to be in a poor small country that is oppressed, that get together every night in large well furnished lounge room, smoke pipes and discuss the finer points of nationalism, then after many nights of fervent debating and long drawn out math problems on a chalk board they come to the conclusion that blowing themselves up is the best way to attack Israel. Ignoring the retributions that will follow only making life harder for their people.
I also included the link to that article because it gives you that other side of the argument as well, but I just don't care for that side as much.
There is no way to know for sure what the people who actually went through on the suicide mission were motivated by. They're dead, and short of relatives and notes they left behind, we have nothing to go by. This is why the anthropologists have done extensive research on the history and familial situation of their subjects, trying to draw some kind of understanding of the situations they are in. I wholly concede that money might be an added motivation, but it is by far not the main reason... not anywhere close. The USAToday article you pointed to indicates the suicide bomber they are talking about is a 30-year old college graduate.
Regardless of the motivation, your assumptions about what these people are like is wrong. They are not mindless, stupid, uneducated fools. College graduates. I'll reference your article:
<i>"The Al-Aqsa Martyrs Brigade is a shadowy offshoot of Fatah, a secular militant group that is the largest faction of Arafat's Palestine Liberation Organization. Jaber says there are no religious strictures that bar women from volunteering for suicide missions. 'Not every man who comes to us, or woman, we accept,' Jaber says.
<b>'There are certain criteria that we observe. People with mental or psychological problems or personal family problems — I cannot allow myself to send such people.'</b>
He adds, "A person has to be a <b>fully matured person, an adult, a sane person,</b> and of course, not less than 18 years of age and fully aware of what he is about to carry out" before being accepted."</i>
The religious motivation is there to ensure that these people think they are going to be happy in their afterlife. Just as you would like to be paid a "last rites" visit by the priest in your military outfit when you're close to death on foreign soil; to cleanse your soul, repent your sins, and maybe help ensure you get into heaven. If you were religious and were going to suicide for America, I'd bet you'd like to know that God is going to look kindly upon you when you got to wherever it is you're going. It is not the main motivation, however, that is purely an aspect that is required in order to make people go through with it. The main motivation is their political cause.
I don't understand why Christians go through life thinking they are going to get into Heaven or why they think their religion is "right" and Islam is "wrong." I don't understand how anyone can think a big-**** flood came around and Noah saved all the animals by building a giant raft. Yet I'd bet you'd argue that not all Christians are unintelligent fools. All religion comes with a lot of baggage.
Their life is hard because we oppress them. We fund Israel so they can oppress them. We decimate their country with countless bombs. We round up their ilk and deport them. We sanction their countries so they cannot get even the most basic needs. They have no voice, no hope for finding a solution. We help keep it that way.
And no one is claiming they sit around smoking stogies and debating about the finer points of their terrorism campaign. I never said that, I never implied that, and no one else said that. Not to mention they probably have their own culture for social activities, and it probably doesn't include any of the western traits you mentioned. Putting aside the fantasy stuff, you have to admit that what you originally knew or thought about all suicide terrorists was wrong.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->We don't need to wake up, the world does Evis. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Yep, we're always right and everyone else in the world (sans Israel) is wrong. Continue thinking like that and terrorism will continue forever.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->The thing is ryo, israelis AREN'T killing everyone willy nilly. They're very restrictive in their rules of engagement. The palestinians extremists (notice I didn't say the general populace) are not as restrictive. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
That's true, Israel doesn't just indiscriminatly slaughter people. But they are identified as oppressers and occupiers by the majority of the Palestinian people. Regardless of if this is true or not, it's what people think. And that's quite important, as beliefs such as that do stir up nationalistic sentiments, and the foremost one is to try and fight back.
Many of us living in the USA or Australia might say "Oh but I'd never blow myself up trying to repel an invader" or "Why would I fight back? It's hopeless", but we've hardly ever been invaded. Look at the American revolutionaries; their situation during much of the War of Independance was hopeless yet they still fought. The men who took part in Pickett's Charge of the 3rd day of the Battle of Gettysburg in 1863 knew that they'd probably never reach the Union lines, but they fought anyway. Go around the world, from nation to nation, and no matter where you look you find that when a country has been invaded the people fight back. They use any and all means at their disposal to do so. The Palestinians are doing exactly that.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->But they are identified as oppressers and occupiers by the majority of the Palestinian people.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Course they are
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Regardless of if this is true or not, it's what people think. And that's quite important, as beliefs such as that do stir up nationalistic sentiments, and the foremost one is to try and fight back.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
True
Both sides are strongly motivated to strike back. When busses full of civilians are bombed, it really motivates people to fight. When houses are plowed down, it motivates people to fight as well.
Some hold restraint, as in the case of kids defacing tanks. The crew must be frustrated as hell. Along similar lines, Some palestinian families refuse to fight, no matter what. Their enemy is violence, not the israelis. And so they hold restraint as houses are bulldozed. It takes great courage for that. I would probably fight if my country is invaded. Just as I would fight if a robber is threatening me, especially if I had a gun. I may end up getting shot, but who's to say I wouldn't have anyway? You don't go peacefully into that good night and all that jazz. In the end, it just depends on what you believe in.
<!--QuoteBegin--Eviscerator+Dec 7 2003, 07:07 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Eviscerator @ Dec 7 2003, 07:07 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> they are talking about is a 30-year old college graduate.
Regardless of the motivation, your assumptions about what these people are like is wrong. They are not mindless, stupid, uneducated fools. College graduates. I'll reference your article:
Their life is hard because we oppress them. We fund Israel so they can oppress them. We decimate their country with countless bombs. We round up their ilk and deport them. We sanction their countries so they cannot get even the most basic needs. They have no voice, no hope for finding a solution. We help keep it that way.
And no one is claiming they sit around smoking stogies and debating about the finer points of their terrorism campaign. I never said that, I never implied that, and no one else said that. Not to mention they probably have their own culture for social activities, and it probably doesn't include any of the western traits you mentioned. Putting aside the fantasy stuff, you have to admit that what you originally knew or thought about all suicide terrorists was wrong.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->We don't need to wake up, the world does Evis. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Yep, we're always right and everyone else in the world (sans Israel) is wrong. Continue thinking like that and terrorism will continue forever. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Graduating from college does not make you a smart person, but hey I won't argue about that.
Yes, we are responsible for their lives being hard; we all know how nice Saddam treated his people, that statement is so untrue in general. As for Israel with Palestine, they bring attacks from Israel on themselves, they attack Israel first, Israel does what it has to do to defend itself, I have very little sympathy for the Palestinian people, or their pathetic cause. They don't want peace, it's quite clear when they send suicide bombers on the same day peace talks are to take place, as they have done many times. They want Israel destroyed, gone, removed. Israel is arguably the most powerful country in the area, backed by the most powerful country in the world, now lets cut the "well Israel is the problem, so lets simply remove it and then everyone well live happily ever after" bs, and look at things realistically. When you add up nuclear weapons, a strong army, one of the best intelligence services and the nearly unconditional support of the world’s most powerful country, Israel is certainly a world power. It's insane to think that it should be the one to go, over one of the most pathetic countries (is it even a country?) Palestine. That’s a more realistic view.
Heck look at it from a religious stand point, which holds very little water with me but I'll mention it anyway. Judaism has been around <b>ALLOT</b> longer then Islam, the beliefs the culture everything dates back much farther then Islam, take that as you want.
As for the last statement, what would you like us to do? Accept everyone? Pull out of all countries where the populace doesn’t want us? Isolate ourselves, and let WWII happen again? I'm not quite sure what you want us to do, to become this perfect, culturally understanding country?
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->As for the last statement, what would you like us to do? Accept everyone? Pull out of all countries where the populace doesn’t want us? Isolate ourselves, and let WWII happen again? I'm not quite sure what you want us to do, to become this perfect, culturally understanding country? <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
World War Two was not caused by American isolationism; it was brought about as a result of the First World War combined with the economic and political situation in Germany during the 1920's and 1930's. Even if the USA had played a part in the League of Nations, a conflict was virtually inevitable given the Great Depression and the political climate in Germany.
The main thing preventing major war today is nuclear weapons, along with the spread of capitalist ideas. The USA isn't stopping nation's from fighting, it's simply that the risks and consequenses of war in the modern world tend to outweigh the advantages. As just about all the world's major countries are capitalistisc in nature, and posses nuclear stockpiles, none of them want to go to war with one another. This explains why most conflicts are occuring in small, poor nations, as the immediate material advantages of a war (resources, plunder, territory) outweigh the potential risk, as the nation has very little to lose in the first place.
If the USA was to withdraw from countries that did not want them there, a lot of the hatred towards America would dissapear, and the potential for further terrorist actions would greatly decrease. People need a reason to fight against something, be it a country or an ideology. Terrorist groups currently can gather a lot of support simply by saying "The USA is supporting Israel and their godless troops are on our sacred land". It's much harder to gain support when all a group can say is "The USA isn't on our land and their not supporting Israel". The fact is that Israel has a very compitant and advanced military along with a nuclear stockpile. It doesn't need billions of dollars in aid each year, nor does it need an ally in the US. The main reason US forces are in the Gulf is because of oil. I'm not saying they invaded Iraq for oil, but when over half the world's oil is in one region you tend to want to make sure it's safe.
The US must ask itself a simple question: are the rewards of staying in the Middle East (oil supply, friendship of Israel) worth the costs? (increased terrorism, military spending, international anger). I'm thinking that it's high time the USA pulls out before the next big terrorist attack occurs. One that will dwarf S-11.
So if we were to leave Iraq and Afghanistan, leave our bases in Saudi Arabia, Qatar, Kuwait, (whom we saved) pull our navy out of the area, and cut off support for Israel. This well solve our terrorism problem? What well happen to the region? Most likely more crazy mad men like Saddam well come to power again, with nothing to stop them. Israel would get scared, I could see those nukes getting used if they were pressured enough, and they have vowed never to let anything like the holocaust happen again, no matter what.
Hey if we do that we mid as well hand Osama our official surrender, I know this phrase has been done to death, but that truly would be letting the terrorists win.
The way I see it, the US supports Israel because it creates <i>stability</i> in the Middle East. (I know you think I'm crazy now).
If the US backed off support from Israel, you have all the Arabic nations there going 'Ooooh it party time!'. They all converge on Israel. No matter how good Israel is, they got some very rich countries going after them. So *poof*, no Israel.
Then what do they do? Most of the countries in the Middle East don't have that great a government. They know this, so they keep their citizens mad at someone else, in this case Israel. If Israel dies, they have to get their people mad at someone else, or their citizens start to think about how life would be better with a different government.
So the Middle Eastern nations would have 2ish choices: 1) Get people mad at the US 2) Get people mad at other Arabic nations
This is when it gets messy.
But with Isreal there, its kept in a sort of tense peace. They don't attack Israel overtly to avoid the US's wrath, but their people are satisfied in a way. We get stability in the Middle East, which is a good thing.
I beleive this will go on until A) The Middle Eastern nations get new governments, or B) Someone thinks up a different way to keep the peace there (Turning it into a parking lot is <b>not</b> the answer. <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif'><!--endemo-->)
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->If the USA was to withdraw from countries that did not want them there, a lot of the hatred towards America would dissapear, and the potential for further terrorist actions would greatly decrease.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
a) if we withdraw from Iraq now, saddam or some other group will take charge and things will be no better. In fact, thousands who support our presence probably be "punished". We abandoned our friends at the bay of pigs, we abandoned the kurds in 1991, and if we abandon the Iraqi's now, the ones that DID like us will now hate us for abandoning them.
b) The hatred would not dissappear. Even if we totally reformed our entire foreign policy and trade policies to suck their **** and try and make everyone happy whilst staying out of everyones business, they would merely tolerate us. But would still hold us in contempt for what we've done in the past. It isn't difficult to recognize that these people do not forgive easily and never forget.
So sure, make changes. But that means giving in and accepting those who are unjust, allowing people like saddam to continue. If we did that, then we've failed. It would be a false friendship with people who we really dislike, and any real friends or allies we have over there will never trust us again for abandoning them. I don't see how that is a better position.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->No matter how good Israel is, they got some very rich countries going after them. So *poof*, no Israel.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I'm sure some people around here who cry in outrage about the suffering of innocent people wouldn't mind at all if the israelis were wiped out.
Israel would use nuclear weapons if it came to that. No one is the winner then. So you're right, our supporting israel is creating stabiliy. It may be uneasy, it may be only temporary until the world can figure something out, but again, we can't back down now. And it's not just america- it was france who helped israel get their nuclear weapons. But lets keep that under the table shall we? No one likes to talk about that.
Its funny that many people literally hate america for doing some of the stuff their own country does. But such is life. It's only unacceptable when americans do it.
Ok, that was alot of sarcasm, but that's the way it seems.
Yes, I advocate completely cutting off support for Israel. They did not become a world power by themselves. They only got to where they are because of our money and our support. We have sent trillions of dollars in aid, both directly in cash and also in military supplies. The only reason for their survival this long is because of our aid. Had we done the exact same thing for the Palestinians instead, we would not even be having this discussion, as there would be a Palestinian state there instead... well except maybe all of the Israelis would be resorting to extreme forms of terrorism trying to fight for their independence. I'm curious as to <b>why</b> we decided to support the Israeli side of the fence.
All Muslims consider Israel to be an invalid state, and they do not recognize their government. They never will, just like we don't recognize a state of Palestine. The only way the current way of thinking will end up in peace some day is if all Muslims are destroyed. They have a legitimate reason for why they consider Israel to be invalid. Everyone in the world recognizes this reason. Unfortunately, people here feel compelled to side with Israel since "they have our nukes and our money therefore they must be right." We also sent money and arms to the Afghan mujahadeen to fight back against the Russian invasion. These guys won and turned into the Taliban. We recently proceeded to turn around on our initial support and take them all out. We must have been right in sending them aid at one point, but now one must conclude that we definitely were not.
The same holds for Israel. It might have been the right thing to do at the time, but looking back it is quite clear this is the wrong way to go about peace. Time for a massive policy shift. The long-term peaceful solution that will result in the fewest numbers of casualties and wars on both sides (my goal) is for Israel to give up its land and move out. Yes, this is a painful concession and quite embarassing for all involved. But as I've pointed out in the past, even true Judaism considers a state of Israel to be invalid. They're right, and so are the Muslims. If the Israelis are looking for a place to move to, they are welcome here into the US. If I were in charge I would even go so far as to set aside some US land, currently owned by the government, so they can establish an Israeli state over here if desired. The only reason for making that concession would be to appease the Zionists and make the deal happen. True Jews would not need an official state of Israel to continue living peacefully and practicing their faith. If we did this right, and made considerable reparations to Muslim people in the area, they may even be willing to treat Jews visiting the Holy Land with dignity and respect, just like it was 100 years ago. That I think is the best solution we can try to bring about.
Now, unfortunately, there are many obstacles to that plan, and I'm not sure exactly how to go about solving those obstacles. Oil, money, greed, power, control, etc. Leaving Israel alone by just cutting off support and hoping for the best will not work, for the reasons mentioned. They've got nukes, they'll use them, lots of deaths, etc. My optimistic side hopes diplomacy and logical reasoning will work, although my cynical and realistic side knows this is very unlikely to happen. And without supporters, it'll never get past the dream stage. So the first thing to do is educate people on the issues and teach them the true reasons for how things came to be. There is a lot of confusion and misunderstanding about the Arab/Israeli conflict, especially surrounding the events that led to the creation of the state of Israel. If a scientifc poll were done today, I'd wager that 95% of the population here believes the wrong things. Therefore we are unable to understand why terrorism happens, we don't understand the cultural/political motivations, and we are completely unable to do the right things to stop it. 50+ years of bloodshed ought to be proof enough of our impotence in this regard.
Now in regards to what do we do about the Muslims and their countries in the region, we do exactly what all of the pro-war people here are supporting right now in Iraq: some hard-nosed nation building. And as all pro-war people have said, this will take many years. I'd make one change: don't force democracy down their throat. Work with them to establish a government that is culturally acceptable and feasible. If Muslims are given the chance to have their own say in the matter, I firmly believe that not only will terrorism in the area completely cease, but we will have ended the major cause of war for both ourselves and the entire region and its surrounds. Bad apples like Saddam will not be able to come to power with the US watching over their development and ensuring they don't come to power. This is the best chance for long-term stability and peace in the Middle East. No other plan will ever work, short of killing every Muslim on the planet.
All it really takes is to move the Israelis out. Without Israel out of the region, no plan for Middle East peace will <b>ever work</b>, despite all of our best intentions and our military wars. In fact, our current plans are only going to bring about further instability and terrorism. Guaranteed. Evidence exhibit A is the loving, peaceful people of Iraq accepting the government we are forcing on them right now. Using wars to bring about peace will never, ever work.
<!--QuoteBegin--reasa+Dec 7 2003, 09:30 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (reasa @ Dec 7 2003, 09:30 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Hey if we do that we mid as well hand Osama our official surrender, I know this phrase has been done to death, but that truly would be letting the terrorists win. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> The definition of terrorism is relative to which side you're on. I'm sure the Japanese felt Americans were not very nice to drop two nuclear weapons on their soil, indiscriminantly killing hundreds of thousands of people in one fell swoop. Yet the Japanese quickly surrendered, and it was the right thing to do to save their nation from additional nuclear holocaust. Both sides in a war result to killing people, that's what happens in a war. Just because the other side does not have nuclear submarines, nuclear aircraft carriers, B-2 bombers, stealth fighters, daisy-cutter bombs, and countless trillions of dollars in additional high-tech weaponry at their disposal does not make what they fight for or how they fight wrong. We killed lots of innocent Japanese civilians to bring about the end WW2. Everyone knows this was the right thing to do, even though it was atrocious and unspeakably horrible in nature. And the "terrorists" (the US of A) won. The Japanese have long since forgiven, although they have not forgotten. I suspect the Middle East will also forgive, if not forget.
<!--QuoteBegin--Burncycle+Dec 7 2003, 11:56 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Burncycle @ Dec 7 2003, 11:56 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> It boggles the mind... <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> I know. There's about 300 million more I have to unboggle.
Evisc- cutting off support for Israel = critically bad idea. You cant do it. You might as well say "maybe tomorrow everyone will wake up happy in the Middle East and the problem will be solved" because that has better chances. You cut the Israeli's off, they are going to be paranoid - and with good reason. They will lash out at every other nation in the region. And if they look like losing, they are going to nuke. Diplomacy - thats not going to happen and everyone here knows it. This has to take the cake as one of the worst solutions to the Israeli/arab problem ever.
If we had supported those miserable Palestinians, there wouldnt be a single Israeli in the Middle East, as they would all have been butchered, and their would be instead yet another miserable nation, with a few rich rulers and the rest living in the dirt. Why would we want that?
I support the Israeli's because they are the reasonable ones. They are the ones that can actually make something out of their nation. If they stopped retaliating tomorrow, the war would continue. If the Palestinians stopped bombing tomorrow - the war would be over. Be they right or be they wrong, what the Palestinians are doing isnt helping them at all - and for that I believe them to be fools.
Move the Jews to the US? As if the Americans are going to let them all move over and carve out a piece of their country to make their home. Thats impossible in short. It wont happen. Thats nothing but a fantastic and utterly impossible dream. If this is the best solution we have.....
The Jews arent moving, The muslims wont stop hating. These are two things we are going to have to understand and deal with. Those are the realities. Anything else is a pipedream. Forget solutions, lets go for damage minimisation.
I find it strange that people seriously believe that the moment US funding ceases to Israel, the nation will vanish and every Arab country will invade. Step back for a moment and consider some things.
1) Israel has a kick-arse military. Just about their entire population can fight, and they're not using bad equipment. They're using state of the art military technology backed up by excellent training and leadership. Israel has already beaten all it's neighbours on two pervious occassions, with no outside assistance. Why does everyone suddenly assume that they can't do it again?
2) Israel has nukes. Israel will definitely use them if they were invaded and they couldn't win. So every Arab country would have to have leaders who would be willing to sacrifice their entire countries for no reward. Ain't going to happen. Though many Middle Eastern leaders arn't nice guys, they're not suicidal. Their hatred for Israel goes as far as sending some funding to terrorist groups. They are not going to sacrifice everything they have. Why do I say this? Because they havn't done it. Nothing is stopping these Middle Eastern guys from firing up their armies and plowing into Israel right now. Nothing except, of course, the military might of Israel and the certain destruction of every Arab city in the Middle East.
3) Israel doesn't need the US. Seriously they don't. They don't need the funding. They don't need the alliance. They don't need anyone. They've got cash, military strength and nukes. Why the hell are we still sending these guys billions of dollars?
I say just pull out. Let the whole region do whatever the hell they want. Because in all likelyhood, what will happen if the West just pulls out of the Middle East is that things will continue just the way they are now, except terrorist groups will lose heaps of their support. Israel will still be there, uninvaded. The Saudis, Iranians and Iraqis will keep selling oil to the world and putting that money into palaces whilst neglecting their own people. And so WHAT? Why should our people die, and our tax dollars be spent trying to "help" people who don't want to be helped in the first place? The Middle East doesn't like us! They don't want us there! If they want to continue to be ruled by crazy theocratical governments and despots then let them! As long as the oil keeps flowing everything is peachy right?
There are plenty of people in the Western world who need help. Health and education are just two of the myriad of areas where the money currently being spent on backing up a bunch of crackpot Arab despots and extremist Jews could be better spent. Why the hell arn't the people in America, or Australia, or Britian, coming FIRST? The governments in Washington, London and Canberra where put there by us, the people, to represent us! We come first! NOT the people of the Middle East!
<!--QuoteBegin--Ryo-Ohki+Dec 8 2003, 10:26 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Ryo-Ohki @ Dec 8 2003, 10:26 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> I find it strange that people seriously believe that the moment US funding ceases to Israel, the nation will vanish and every Arab country will invade. Step back for a moment and consider some things.
1) Israel has a kick-arse military. Just about their entire population can fight, and they're not using bad equipment. They're using state of the art military technology backed up by excellent training and leadership. Israel has already beaten all it's neighbours on two pervious occassions, with no outside assistance. Why does everyone suddenly assume that they can't do it again?
2) Israel has nukes. Israel will definitely use them if they were invaded and they couldn't win. So every Arab country would have to have leaders who would be willing to sacrifice their entire countries for no reward. Ain't going to happen. Though many Middle Eastern leaders arn't nice guys, they're not suicidal. Their hatred for Israel goes as far as sending some funding to terrorist groups. They are not going to sacrifice everything they have. Why do I say this? Because they havn't done it. Nothing is stopping these Middle Eastern guys from firing up their armies and plowing into Israel right now. Nothing except, of course, the military might of Israel and the certain destruction of every Arab city in the Middle East.
3) Israel doesn't need the US. Seriously they don't. They don't need the funding. They don't need the alliance. They don't need anyone. They've got cash, military strength and nukes. Why the hell are we still sending these guys billions of dollars?
I say just pull out. Let the whole region do whatever the hell they want. Because in all likelyhood, what will happen if the West just pulls out of the Middle East is that things will continue just the way they are now, except terrorist groups will lose heaps of their support. Israel will still be there, uninvaded. The Saudis, Iranians and Iraqis will keep selling oil to the world and putting that money into palaces whilst neglecting their own people. And so WHAT? Why should our people die, and our tax dollars be spent trying to "help" people who don't want to be helped in the first place? The Middle East doesn't like us! They don't want us there! If they want to continue to be ruled by crazy theocratical governments and despots then let them! As long as the oil keeps flowing everything is peachy right?
There are plenty of people in the Western world who need help. Health and education are just two of the myriad of areas where the money currently being spent on backing up a bunch of crackpot Arab despots and extremist Jews could be better spent. Why the hell arn't the people in America, or Australia, or Britian, coming FIRST? The governments in Washington, London and Canberra where put there by us, the people, to represent us! We come first! NOT the people of the Middle East!
[/end rant] <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> I'm with Ryo now - I stand convinced. To hell with those Arabs and Jews, if they prolly aint gonna nuke, then let them do whatever they please. I havent got a scrap of sympathy for those arabs, there is no way in hell they are going to help themselves, so lets abandon them to their fate. If they wish to take on the Zionists they can do so, but they have to be prepared for the backlash.
Sod the Arabs - lets take care of ourselves. And just in case you think the above is sarcasm - it isnt.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->I find it strange that people seriously believe that the moment US funding ceases to Israel, the nation will vanish and every Arab country will invade<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
It's not a matter of if, it's a matter of when. Israel may fend off the first attack. Or the first hundred- but they can't stand alone. It may be 50 years from then before they're faced with a use it or lose it situation with the nukes. No one is saying it will be sudden.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->So every Arab country would have to have leaders who would be willing to sacrifice their entire countries for no reward. Ain't going to happen.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<!--QuoteBegin--Burncycle+Dec 8 2003, 11:07 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Burncycle @ Dec 8 2003, 11:07 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->I find it strange that people seriously believe that the moment US funding ceases to Israel, the nation will vanish and every Arab country will invade<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
It's not a matter of if, it's a matter of when. Israel may fend off the first attack. Or the first hundred- but they can't stand alone. It may be 50 years from then before they're faced with a use it or lose it situation with the nukes. No one is saying it will be sudden.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->So every Arab country would have to have leaders who would be willing to sacrifice their entire countries for no reward. Ain't going to happen.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Didn't stop them before. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> I dont know about that Burncycle. The Arabs have only ever gone all out on the Israeli's when they think they can win. American support or no the Israeli military is by far the best in the region, they have the balls to use it, and they have nukes to ensure that if they dont win - no one does.
So the Arab leaders just keep the people in a constant state of unrest, blaming all their problems on the Israeli's to keep them from recognising the real problems that face them, but never actually attack. The leaders are greedy, corrupt filth with no real concern for anything but their own hide. They dont want said hide to get nuclear fallout on it - nor do they want to risk it in full scale war.
I've finally got it the best comeback ever against Evis. Many members of the KKK and other white supremecist groups are quite well off and have college degrees. Mayor's sons with college degrees and a taste for fine art can be racist but this does not mean they are right. Sane people can be evil. Just because someone reads fine literature and has some degrees does not mean we have to be tolerant of their anti ****, anti jew, anti Islam, anti black views. These same people who are quite intelligent lynch people because of their race and ideas.
<!--QuoteBegin--Eviscerator+Dec 8 2003, 12:55 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Eviscerator @ Dec 8 2003, 12:55 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin--reasa+Dec 7 2003, 09:30 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (reasa @ Dec 7 2003, 09:30 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Hey if we do that we mid as well hand Osama our official surrender, I know this phrase has been done to death, but that truly would be letting the terrorists win. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> The definition of terrorism is relative to which side you're on. I'm sure the Japanese felt Americans were not very nice to drop two nuclear weapons on their soil, indiscriminantly killing hundreds of thousands of people in one fell swoop. Yet the Japanese quickly surrendered, and it was the right thing to do to save their nation from additional nuclear holocaust. Both sides in a war result to killing people, that's what happens in a war. Just because the other side does not have nuclear submarines, nuclear aircraft carriers, B-2 bombers, stealth fighters, daisy-cutter bombs, and countless trillions of dollars in additional high-tech weaponry at their disposal does not make what they fight for or how they fight wrong. We killed lots of innocent Japanese civilians to bring about the end WW2. Everyone knows this was the right thing to do, even though it was atrocious and unspeakably horrible in nature. And the "terrorists" (the US of A) won. The Japanese have long since forgiven, although they have not forgotten. I suspect the Middle East will also forgive, if not forget. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> <!--emo&???--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/confused.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='confused.gif'><!--endemo--> What your saying doesn't take into account the situation at the time. How many US and Japanese soldiers would die in the invasion of Japan? My grandfather would have probably died. The US government had the choice between losing hundreds of thousands of our soldiers OUR CITIZENS and the Japanese. The US government decided it valued its own soldiers over the Japanese. One protects one's own. Japan was an imperialist state. They bombed Pearl Harbor during peace talks, they invaded China and many Pacific islands, 1 in 3 POWs in Japan died comparatively to about 1 in 30 in Germany. Japan had suicide fighter wings, soldiers suicided rather than let the US take them prisoner. After the US occupation of Japan which took several years, Japan became a democratic state. Japan is now one of the most prosperous nations in the world. Though it was a terrible loss of life it was the right choice at the time to end the war quicly rather than having MORE people die over years of war. The Japanese had killed innocents as well.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->QUOTE I find it strange that people seriously believe that the moment US funding ceases to Israel, the nation will vanish and every Arab country will invade
It's not a matter of if, it's a matter of when. Israel may fend off the first attack. Or the first hundred- but they can't stand alone. It may be 50 years from then before they're faced with a use it or lose it situation with the nukes. No one is saying it will be sudden.
QUOTE So every Arab country would have to have leaders who would be willing to sacrifice their entire countries for no reward. Ain't going to happen.
Didn't stop them before. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
In response to the first part, every time Arab armies have tried to take on Israel the Arabs have walked out with a bloody nose and thousands of casualties. You think that the Arabs can just instantly replenish all the aircraft, tanks, soldiers and weaponry they lose each time they attack? It takes time to do this, and in a war of attrition, the Israelis have the money and technology to win. In a straight out fight, the Arabs can't win. They just can't.
In response to the second part, the reason the Arabs went in before was that Israel didn't have nukes. Now that Israel has nukes, surprise surprise no Arab leader is dumb enough to try and invade. Look at the 1st Gulf War; Saddam fired Scuds at israel, but was he stupid enough to load them with anthrax and mustard gas, an action which would have almost guareenteed an Israeli nuclear response? No he did not. And Saddam is about as crazy as they get in the Middle East.
Those are the simple facts: No Arabic army has been able to defeat Israel. No current Arabic army can defeat Israel. Even if by some miracle Arabic armies did manage to defeat Israel's military forces, there's still those 200 odd nukes attached to Jericho MRBMs, and guess what: they ain't targetted on Iceland. The Arabs can't win. They have no chance of winning. A while ago, say 30 or 40 years back, yeah they had a chance, and they took it. But now? No way.
Comments
<a href='http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,51252,00.html' target='_blank'>http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,51252,00.html</a>
<a href='http://www.postevents.com/w/jewishnetwork_com/israel/020514_aipac.asp' target='_blank'>http://www.postevents.com/w/jewishnetwork_...20514_aipac.asp</a>
Now you have to wonder, if these families are so "well to do" why do they need all this money.
I remember a while back seeing a tape of a Palestinian mother who seemed all too happy her son/daughter (I can't remember) blew him/herself up. That’s just, for a lack of better words, messed up! Stop trying to justify it because you have a vendetta against Israel. If they wanted to destroy the Palestinians they easily could, if you notice Palestinian attacks only bring retributions from Israel and cause more suffering. You think these "intelligent" people would realize that.
Also the fact Israel has nukes has nothing to do with the Palestinians, nuking them would be like going after a fly in your own home with a bazooka. <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.natural-selection.org/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif'><!--endemo-->
<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
1. I have already proven in another thread that Fox news is notorious for giving bad and misleading information to its viewers.
2. Postnews.com is a Jewish discussion group. Pay close attention to their own disclaimer: <a href='http://www.postevents.com/asp1/main/legal_disclaimer.asp' target='_blank'>Information Disclaimer</a>
<i>"Accuracy and Quality of the Information. The Vendor makes no claims as to the accuracy or quality of the Information. Be aware there are a variety of factors that contribute to bad Information, including: many different people provide Information, they are not trained on providing Information, they are located all over the world and may not be native English speakers, the Information changes frequently, people may forget to make changes when Information changes, people make mistakes, some people have bad intentions. Information is often inaccurate, and can be harmful and dangerous. Use your own judgement and check the source."</i>
3. Even if their claim ends up being true, the story makes it clear that it is not the Palestinians asking for cash. They do not provide any evidence whatsoever that money is a <b>motive</b> for the terrorists. The Saudis may be sending money, but where is the evidence that it's actually a motive? You cannot make a statement such as "they need this cash" unless you provide direct evidence that they themselves are financially motivated. I have shown you direct scientific evidence... interviews and long-term anthropological research... that terrorist motives are directly opposite of what you think they are. These doctors and scientists have interviewed the families themselves and have done extensive cultural analysis into their motives and methodology. The interviewee has himself spent time with an extremist. You have not provided any such research or pre-suicide interviews showing that a single Palestinian has been motivated to kill himself so his family can get paid by Saudi elite. Money is not the motive; their political statement against Israeli occupation is.
You may think it is not wise to blow yourself up, and many would agree with you since it's extremely hard for Americans to fully understand other cultures and situations. But if put into an oppressive situation with nothing but rocks and shoes to throw at their enemy's tanks, they too might decide to start resorting to more drastic measures. It is an unfair fight, and suicide bombing is a result of this huge imbalance. I for one surely wouldn't give up just because my enemy has more powerful and effective weapons than I, especially if I was really devout in my beliefs. Most Americans have not done any research at all into <b>why</b> terrorists do what they do. Instead, they simply take on the opinion of what their media gives them, even if it happens to be wrong (thank you Fox news.) I have two threads now showing you that these beliefs are wrong and are some incredible misunderstandings.
4. Israel has all kinds of Arabic enemies, I was not referring to just Palestinians but people from all over Arabia. Iraq, Iran, Saudi Arabia, Yemen, Afghanistan, you name it. Israel does not have nukes so they can destroy New Zealand if need be. These same countries are the ones we are now bombing, and occupying.
5. My goal is not to justify terrorism, but to bring about an understanding of motives and rationale to try and understand <i>why</i> things happen the way they do. My reason is simple: the majority of Americans are profoundly ignorant and misinformed when it comes to their understanding of other cultures and foreign affairs. The reasons for this are very easy to understand. Media misinformation, apathy, consumerism, stubborness, arrogance, and denial. All the same reasons the rest of the world thinks we're a bunch of idiots (they're right.) Trying to overcome those reasons will be very difficult, but I will not cease. It is only through understanding and analysis into the root causes of problems that we can hope to find a lasting, peaceful solution to those problems. Going to war and killing tens of thousands of Muslims by destroying Arabic countries only to fight for Israel's existence is making the problem much, much, much worse. Our actions right now are so detrimental to the long-term stability of US/Israel -> Arabic relations that we are not only compounding the problem but fostering an environment for new generations of terrorists. This, by the way, is exactly what Israel wants. Israel does not want peace for Muslims, they want Arabs dead. Continued Muslim extremism will only further enhance the flawed belief that the Muslim world is just a bunch of "insane, poor, and uneducated lunatics looking to make a buck for their family." That is incredibly apalling to me. These wars will continue to happen for years to come so long as Americans remain ignorant about and apathetic to what is really happening. We need to wake up.
"The problems that exist in the world cannot be solved by the level of thinking that created them." - Albert Einstein
I don't know what the heck you'd do, but I sure as hell wouldn't go throwing rocks at a tank.
I see the pattern that perhaps they don't see.
Country invaded.
Those resisting are dead.
My friends resisting are dead.
Anybody who lifts a finger at them are dead.
So what would I do?
I'll be damned if I'm going to get myself killed "in the name of nationalism." That's suicide. Strapping a bomb to my chest and killing a couple marines ain't gonna make one bit of difference in the long run! How can you not see that?
you cant ignore being homeless.
hmmm..
Choices choices. <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif'><!--endemo-->
To me, it isn't even an choice. Surviving is the goal. Fighting will do nothing but get me killed. It's as good as putting a gun to my head and firing. So why put a gun to my head and fire when a bulldoser wrecks my house?
I dunno about every American, but I'd say most of them would not just cave in to their oppressors and let their homes be demolished. If you don't want to resort to extreme measures like suicide bombings, what other options are there? Perhaps people are now more able to truly understand how desperate these people are, and what kind of situation they are put into. Unfortunately, we're not making the environment and variables any better, we are only making them worse. Short of killing all Muslims that have a brain, this current ideology is simply not going to bring about peace. Then again, it might just be that we've embarked upon the "Final Solution to the Muslim problem."
For instance, SOP for rock throwers is to button up and ignore them (from one of the guys I know in the israeli military). They're only to be engaged if they pose a threat. Hundreds of situations like this will occur without incident. Then one day a kid tries to take ammo off a tank, or someone runs by with an RPG. When the tank engages and a bystander gets hit, it's all over the media. Suddenly they're killing innocent palestinians on purpose cuz they're "mean" or some other horsesh*t. Gee. Life ain't easy if you're not the underdog.
On the other hand, I don't agree with them bulldozing homes either.
You may think it is not wise to blow yourself up, and many would agree with you since it's extremely hard for Americans to fully understand other cultures and situations. But if put into an oppressive situation with nothing but rocks and shoes to throw at their enemy's tanks, they too might decide to start resorting to more drastic measures. It is an unfair fight, and suicide bombing is a result of this huge imbalance. I for one surely wouldn't give up just because my enemy has more powerful and effective weapons than I, especially if I was really devout in my beliefs. Most Americans have not done any research at all into <b>why</b> terrorists do what they do. Instead, they simply take on the opinion of what their media gives them, even if it happens to be wrong (thank you Fox news.) I have two threads now showing you that these beliefs are wrong and are some incredible misunderstandings.
5. My goal is not to justify terrorism, but to bring about an understanding of motives and rationale to try and understand <i>why</i> things happen the way they do. My reason is simple: the majority of Americans are profoundly ignorant and misinformed when it comes to their understanding of other cultures and foreign affairs. The reasons for this are very easy to understand. Media misinformation, apathy, consumerism, stubborness, arrogance, and denial. All the same reasons the rest of the world thinks we're a bunch of idiots (they're right.) Trying to overcome those reasons will be very difficult, but I will not cease. It is only through understanding and analysis into the root causes of problems that we can hope to find a lasting, peaceful solution to those problems. Going to war and killing tens of thousands of Muslims by destroying Arabic countries only to fight for Israel's existence is making the problem much, much, much worse. Our actions right now are so detrimental to the long-term stability of US/Israel -> Arabic relations that we are not only compounding the problem but fostering an environment for new generations of terrorists. This, by the way, is exactly what Israel wants. Israel does not want peace for Muslims, they want Arabs dead. Continued Muslim extremism will only further enhance the flawed belief that the Muslim world is just a bunch of "insane, poor, and uneducated lunatics looking to make a buck for their family." That is incredibly apalling to me. These wars will continue to happen for years to come so long as Americans remain ignorant about and apathetic to what is really happening. We need to wake up.
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Fox news makes mistakes like all other news networks, if you don't trust them thats fine, but that does not make my evidence any less reliable.
As for not being finically motivated, I wouldn't be a hundred percent sure all of them aren't
<a href='http://www.usatoday.com/news/world/2002/04/22/cover.htm' target='_blank'>http://www.usatoday.com/news/world/2002/04...04/22/cover.htm</a>
"A promise of financial payoffs to the families of bombers is another powerful incentive, Ganor says. Jaber confirms that cash payments from Iraq and other Arab countries go to these families, many in desperate need of money, after the suicide-bombing mission. Iraqi President Saddam Hussein has offered to pay $25,000 to the family of each Palestinian suicide bomber as an incentive for others to volunteer for martyrdom.
"It's being paid and directly to the families," Jaber says.
"These people have lost their dear, beloved loved ones. They are desperate," he says.
Money aside, a crucial motivator is the notion that martyrdom is a ticket to everlasting happiness in the afterlife, Ganor says. Muslim men who volunteer to strap on explosives are promised unlimited sex with 72 virgins in the spirit world, he says.
"Even the women believe this. Not in the 72 virgins business, but that they are going to gain their place in heaven," Ganor says. "Islamic leaders brainwash their constituency, telling them that this is a duty to God. You cannot persuade any Western-culture person to commit that act."
Now you can't prove to me that some of them didn't do it to get money for their families, hell I wouldn't be surprised to see some parents egging their kids on, who knows.
I included the religious bit to show another reason why they may be motivated to it, which speaks for it's self. Now I find it hard to believe how any "intelligent" person could believe this, but hey I don't live in a hut with a bull dozer in my backyard because my cousin wanted to "make a point".
These are not intelligent wealthy aristocrats that just happen to be in a poor small country that is oppressed, that get together every night in large well furnished lounge room, smoke pipes and discuss the finer points of nationalism, then after many nights of fervent debating and long drawn out math problems on a chalk board they come to the conclusion that blowing themselves up is the best way to attack Israel. Ignoring the retributions that will follow only making life harder for their people.
I also included the link to that article because it gives you that other side of the argument as well, but I just don't care for that side as much.
We don't need to wake up, the world does Evis.
Regardless of the motivation, your assumptions about what these people are like is wrong. They are not mindless, stupid, uneducated fools. College graduates. I'll reference your article:
<i>"The Al-Aqsa Martyrs Brigade is a shadowy offshoot of Fatah, a secular militant group that is the largest faction of Arafat's Palestine Liberation Organization. Jaber says there are no religious strictures that bar women from volunteering for suicide missions. 'Not every man who comes to us, or woman, we accept,' Jaber says.
<b>'There are certain criteria that we observe. People with mental or psychological problems or personal family problems — I cannot allow myself to send such people.'</b>
He adds, "A person has to be a <b>fully matured person, an adult, a sane person,</b> and of course, not less than 18 years of age and fully aware of what he is about to carry out" before being accepted."</i>
The religious motivation is there to ensure that these people think they are going to be happy in their afterlife. Just as you would like to be paid a "last rites" visit by the priest in your military outfit when you're close to death on foreign soil; to cleanse your soul, repent your sins, and maybe help ensure you get into heaven. If you were religious and were going to suicide for America, I'd bet you'd like to know that God is going to look kindly upon you when you got to wherever it is you're going. It is not the main motivation, however, that is purely an aspect that is required in order to make people go through with it. The main motivation is their political cause.
I don't understand why Christians go through life thinking they are going to get into Heaven or why they think their religion is "right" and Islam is "wrong." I don't understand how anyone can think a big-**** flood came around and Noah saved all the animals by building a giant raft. Yet I'd bet you'd argue that not all Christians are unintelligent fools. All religion comes with a lot of baggage.
Their life is hard because we oppress them. We fund Israel so they can oppress them. We decimate their country with countless bombs. We round up their ilk and deport them. We sanction their countries so they cannot get even the most basic needs. They have no voice, no hope for finding a solution. We help keep it that way.
And no one is claiming they sit around smoking stogies and debating about the finer points of their terrorism campaign. I never said that, I never implied that, and no one else said that. Not to mention they probably have their own culture for social activities, and it probably doesn't include any of the western traits you mentioned. Putting aside the fantasy stuff, you have to admit that what you originally knew or thought about all suicide terrorists was wrong.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->We don't need to wake up, the world does Evis. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Yep, we're always right and everyone else in the world (sans Israel) is wrong. Continue thinking like that and terrorism will continue forever.
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That's true, Israel doesn't just indiscriminatly slaughter people. But they are identified as oppressers and occupiers by the majority of the Palestinian people. Regardless of if this is true or not, it's what people think. And that's quite important, as beliefs such as that do stir up nationalistic sentiments, and the foremost one is to try and fight back.
Many of us living in the USA or Australia might say "Oh but I'd never blow myself up trying to repel an invader" or "Why would I fight back? It's hopeless", but we've hardly ever been invaded. Look at the American revolutionaries; their situation during much of the War of Independance was hopeless yet they still fought. The men who took part in Pickett's Charge of the 3rd day of the Battle of Gettysburg in 1863 knew that they'd probably never reach the Union lines, but they fought anyway. Go around the world, from nation to nation, and no matter where you look you find that when a country has been invaded the people fight back. They use any and all means at their disposal to do so. The Palestinians are doing exactly that.
Course they are
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Regardless of if this is true or not, it's what people think. And that's quite important, as beliefs such as that do stir up nationalistic sentiments, and the foremost one is to try and fight back.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
True
Both sides are strongly motivated to strike back. When busses full of civilians are bombed, it really motivates people to fight. When houses are plowed down, it motivates people to fight as well.
Some hold restraint, as in the case of kids defacing tanks. The crew must be frustrated as hell. Along similar lines, Some palestinian families refuse to fight, no matter what. Their enemy is violence, not the israelis. And so they hold restraint as houses are bulldozed. It takes great courage for that. I would probably fight if my country is invaded. Just as I would fight if a robber is threatening me, especially if I had a gun. I may end up getting shot, but who's to say I wouldn't have anyway? You don't go peacefully into that good night and all that jazz. In the end, it just depends on what you believe in.
Regardless of the motivation, your assumptions about what these people are like is wrong. They are not mindless, stupid, uneducated fools. College graduates. I'll reference your article:
Their life is hard because we oppress them. We fund Israel so they can oppress them. We decimate their country with countless bombs. We round up their ilk and deport them. We sanction their countries so they cannot get even the most basic needs. They have no voice, no hope for finding a solution. We help keep it that way.
And no one is claiming they sit around smoking stogies and debating about the finer points of their terrorism campaign. I never said that, I never implied that, and no one else said that. Not to mention they probably have their own culture for social activities, and it probably doesn't include any of the western traits you mentioned. Putting aside the fantasy stuff, you have to admit that what you originally knew or thought about all suicide terrorists was wrong.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->We don't need to wake up, the world does Evis. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Yep, we're always right and everyone else in the world (sans Israel) is wrong. Continue thinking like that and terrorism will continue forever. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Graduating from college does not make you a smart person, but hey I won't argue about that.
Yes, we are responsible for their lives being hard; we all know how nice Saddam treated his people, that statement is so untrue in general. As for Israel with Palestine, they bring attacks from Israel on themselves, they attack Israel first, Israel does what it has to do to defend itself, I have very little sympathy for the Palestinian people, or their pathetic cause. They don't want peace, it's quite clear when they send suicide bombers on the same day peace talks are to take place, as they have done many times. They want Israel destroyed, gone, removed. Israel is arguably the most powerful country in the area, backed by the most powerful country in the world, now lets cut the "well Israel is the problem, so lets simply remove it and then everyone well live happily ever after" bs, and look at things realistically. When you add up nuclear weapons, a strong army, one of the best intelligence services and the nearly unconditional support of the world’s most powerful country, Israel is certainly a world power. It's insane to think that it should be the one to go, over one of the most pathetic countries (is it even a country?) Palestine. That’s a more realistic view.
Heck look at it from a religious stand point, which holds very little water with me but I'll mention it anyway. Judaism has been around <b>ALLOT</b> longer then Islam, the beliefs the culture everything dates back much farther then Islam, take that as you want.
As for the last statement, what would you like us to do? Accept everyone? Pull out of all countries where the populace doesn’t want us? Isolate ourselves, and let WWII happen again? I'm not quite sure what you want us to do, to become this perfect, culturally understanding country?
World War Two was not caused by American isolationism; it was brought about as a result of the First World War combined with the economic and political situation in Germany during the 1920's and 1930's. Even if the USA had played a part in the League of Nations, a conflict was virtually inevitable given the Great Depression and the political climate in Germany.
The main thing preventing major war today is nuclear weapons, along with the spread of capitalist ideas. The USA isn't stopping nation's from fighting, it's simply that the risks and consequenses of war in the modern world tend to outweigh the advantages. As just about all the world's major countries are capitalistisc in nature, and posses nuclear stockpiles, none of them want to go to war with one another. This explains why most conflicts are occuring in small, poor nations, as the immediate material advantages of a war (resources, plunder, territory) outweigh the potential risk, as the nation has very little to lose in the first place.
If the USA was to withdraw from countries that did not want them there, a lot of the hatred towards America would dissapear, and the potential for further terrorist actions would greatly decrease. People need a reason to fight against something, be it a country or an ideology. Terrorist groups currently can gather a lot of support simply by saying "The USA is supporting Israel and their godless troops are on our sacred land". It's much harder to gain support when all a group can say is "The USA isn't on our land and their not supporting Israel". The fact is that Israel has a very compitant and advanced military along with a nuclear stockpile. It doesn't need billions of dollars in aid each year, nor does it need an ally in the US. The main reason US forces are in the Gulf is because of oil. I'm not saying they invaded Iraq for oil, but when over half the world's oil is in one region you tend to want to make sure it's safe.
The US must ask itself a simple question: are the rewards of staying in the Middle East (oil supply, friendship of Israel) worth the costs? (increased terrorism, military spending, international anger). I'm thinking that it's high time the USA pulls out before the next big terrorist attack occurs. One that will dwarf S-11.
Hey if we do that we mid as well hand Osama our official surrender, I know this phrase has been done to death, but that truly would be letting the terrorists win.
If the US backed off support from Israel, you have all the Arabic nations there going 'Ooooh it party time!'. They all converge on Israel. No matter how good Israel is, they got some very rich countries going after them. So *poof*, no Israel.
Then what do they do? Most of the countries in the Middle East don't have that great a government. They know this, so they keep their citizens mad at someone else, in this case Israel. If Israel dies, they have to get their people mad at someone else, or their citizens start to think about how life would be better with a different government.
So the Middle Eastern nations would have 2ish choices:
1) Get people mad at the US
2) Get people mad at other Arabic nations
This is when it gets messy.
But with Isreal there, its kept in a sort of tense peace. They don't attack Israel overtly to avoid the US's wrath, but their people are satisfied in a way. We get stability in the Middle East, which is a good thing.
I beleive this will go on until A) The Middle Eastern nations get new governments, or B) Someone thinks up a different way to keep the peace there (Turning it into a parking lot is <b>not</b> the answer. <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif'><!--endemo-->)
a) if we withdraw from Iraq now, saddam or some other group will take charge and things will be no better. In fact, thousands who support our presence probably be "punished". We abandoned our friends at the bay of pigs, we abandoned the kurds in 1991, and if we abandon the Iraqi's now, the ones that DID like us will now hate us for abandoning them.
b) The hatred would not dissappear. Even if we totally reformed our entire foreign policy and trade policies to suck their **** and try and make everyone happy whilst staying out of everyones business, they would merely tolerate us. But would still hold us in contempt for what we've done in the past. It isn't difficult to recognize that these people do not forgive easily and never forget.
So sure, make changes. But that means giving in and accepting those who are unjust, allowing people like saddam to continue. If we did that, then we've failed. It would be a false friendship with people who we really dislike, and any real friends or allies we have over there will never trust us again for abandoning them. I don't see how that is a better position.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->No matter how good Israel is, they got some very rich countries going after them. So *poof*, no Israel.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I'm sure some people around here who cry in outrage about the suffering of innocent people wouldn't mind at all if the israelis were wiped out.
Israel would use nuclear weapons if it came to that. No one is the winner then. So you're right, our supporting israel is creating stabiliy. It may be uneasy, it may be only temporary until the world can figure something out, but again, we can't back down now. And it's not just america- it was france who helped israel get their nuclear weapons. But lets keep that under the table shall we? No one likes to talk about that.
Its funny that many people literally hate america for doing some of the stuff their own country does. But such is life. It's only unacceptable when americans do it.
Ok, that was alot of sarcasm, but that's the way it seems.
All Muslims consider Israel to be an invalid state, and they do not recognize their government. They never will, just like we don't recognize a state of Palestine. The only way the current way of thinking will end up in peace some day is if all Muslims are destroyed. They have a legitimate reason for why they consider Israel to be invalid. Everyone in the world recognizes this reason. Unfortunately, people here feel compelled to side with Israel since "they have our nukes and our money therefore they must be right." We also sent money and arms to the Afghan mujahadeen to fight back against the Russian invasion. These guys won and turned into the Taliban. We recently proceeded to turn around on our initial support and take them all out. We must have been right in sending them aid at one point, but now one must conclude that we definitely were not.
The same holds for Israel. It might have been the right thing to do at the time, but looking back it is quite clear this is the wrong way to go about peace. Time for a massive policy shift. The long-term peaceful solution that will result in the fewest numbers of casualties and wars on both sides (my goal) is for Israel to give up its land and move out. Yes, this is a painful concession and quite embarassing for all involved. But as I've pointed out in the past, even true Judaism considers a state of Israel to be invalid. They're right, and so are the Muslims. If the Israelis are looking for a place to move to, they are welcome here into the US. If I were in charge I would even go so far as to set aside some US land, currently owned by the government, so they can establish an Israeli state over here if desired. The only reason for making that concession would be to appease the Zionists and make the deal happen. True Jews would not need an official state of Israel to continue living peacefully and practicing their faith. If we did this right, and made considerable reparations to Muslim people in the area, they may even be willing to treat Jews visiting the Holy Land with dignity and respect, just like it was 100 years ago. That I think is the best solution we can try to bring about.
Now, unfortunately, there are many obstacles to that plan, and I'm not sure exactly how to go about solving those obstacles. Oil, money, greed, power, control, etc. Leaving Israel alone by just cutting off support and hoping for the best will not work, for the reasons mentioned. They've got nukes, they'll use them, lots of deaths, etc. My optimistic side hopes diplomacy and logical reasoning will work, although my cynical and realistic side knows this is very unlikely to happen. And without supporters, it'll never get past the dream stage. So the first thing to do is educate people on the issues and teach them the true reasons for how things came to be. There is a lot of confusion and misunderstanding about the Arab/Israeli conflict, especially surrounding the events that led to the creation of the state of Israel. If a scientifc poll were done today, I'd wager that 95% of the population here believes the wrong things. Therefore we are unable to understand why terrorism happens, we don't understand the cultural/political motivations, and we are completely unable to do the right things to stop it. 50+ years of bloodshed ought to be proof enough of our impotence in this regard.
Now in regards to what do we do about the Muslims and their countries in the region, we do exactly what all of the pro-war people here are supporting right now in Iraq: some hard-nosed nation building. And as all pro-war people have said, this will take many years. I'd make one change: don't force democracy down their throat. Work with them to establish a government that is culturally acceptable and feasible. If Muslims are given the chance to have their own say in the matter, I firmly believe that not only will terrorism in the area completely cease, but we will have ended the major cause of war for both ourselves and the entire region and its surrounds. Bad apples like Saddam will not be able to come to power with the US watching over their development and ensuring they don't come to power. This is the best chance for long-term stability and peace in the Middle East. No other plan will ever work, short of killing every Muslim on the planet.
All it really takes is to move the Israelis out. Without Israel out of the region, no plan for Middle East peace will <b>ever work</b>, despite all of our best intentions and our military wars. In fact, our current plans are only going to bring about further instability and terrorism. Guaranteed. Evidence exhibit A is the loving, peaceful people of Iraq accepting the government we are forcing on them right now. Using wars to bring about peace will never, ever work.
The definition of terrorism is relative to which side you're on. I'm sure the Japanese felt Americans were not very nice to drop two nuclear weapons on their soil, indiscriminantly killing hundreds of thousands of people in one fell swoop. Yet the Japanese quickly surrendered, and it was the right thing to do to save their nation from additional nuclear holocaust. Both sides in a war result to killing people, that's what happens in a war. Just because the other side does not have nuclear submarines, nuclear aircraft carriers, B-2 bombers, stealth fighters, daisy-cutter bombs, and countless trillions of dollars in additional high-tech weaponry at their disposal does not make what they fight for or how they fight wrong. We killed lots of innocent Japanese civilians to bring about the end WW2. Everyone knows this was the right thing to do, even though it was atrocious and unspeakably horrible in nature. And the "terrorists" (the US of A) won. The Japanese have long since forgiven, although they have not forgotten. I suspect the Middle East will also forgive, if not forget.
I know. There's about 300 million more I have to unboggle.
If we had supported those miserable Palestinians, there wouldnt be a single Israeli in the Middle East, as they would all have been butchered, and their would be instead yet another miserable nation, with a few rich rulers and the rest living in the dirt. Why would we want that?
I support the Israeli's because they are the reasonable ones. They are the ones that can actually make something out of their nation. If they stopped retaliating tomorrow, the war would continue. If the Palestinians stopped bombing tomorrow - the war would be over. Be they right or be they wrong, what the Palestinians are doing isnt helping them at all - and for that I believe them to be fools.
Move the Jews to the US? As if the Americans are going to let them all move over and carve out a piece of their country to make their home. Thats impossible in short. It wont happen. Thats nothing but a fantastic and utterly impossible dream. If this is the best solution we have.....
The Jews arent moving, The muslims wont stop hating. These are two things we are going to have to understand and deal with. Those are the realities. Anything else is a pipedream. Forget solutions, lets go for damage minimisation.
1) Israel has a kick-arse military. Just about their entire population can fight, and they're not using bad equipment. They're using state of the art military technology backed up by excellent training and leadership. Israel has already beaten all it's neighbours on two pervious occassions, with no outside assistance. Why does everyone suddenly assume that they can't do it again?
2) Israel has nukes. Israel will definitely use them if they were invaded and they couldn't win. So every Arab country would have to have leaders who would be willing to sacrifice their entire countries for no reward. Ain't going to happen. Though many Middle Eastern leaders arn't nice guys, they're not suicidal. Their hatred for Israel goes as far as sending some funding to terrorist groups. They are not going to sacrifice everything they have. Why do I say this? Because they havn't done it. Nothing is stopping these Middle Eastern guys from firing up their armies and plowing into Israel right now. Nothing except, of course, the military might of Israel and the certain destruction of every Arab city in the Middle East.
3) Israel doesn't need the US. Seriously they don't. They don't need the funding. They don't need the alliance. They don't need anyone. They've got cash, military strength and nukes. Why the hell are we still sending these guys billions of dollars?
I say just pull out. Let the whole region do whatever the hell they want. Because in all likelyhood, what will happen if the West just pulls out of the Middle East is that things will continue just the way they are now, except terrorist groups will lose heaps of their support. Israel will still be there, uninvaded. The Saudis, Iranians and Iraqis will keep selling oil to the world and putting that money into palaces whilst neglecting their own people. And so WHAT? Why should our people die, and our tax dollars be spent trying to "help" people who don't want to be helped in the first place? The Middle East doesn't like us! They don't want us there! If they want to continue to be ruled by crazy theocratical governments and despots then let them! As long as the oil keeps flowing everything is peachy right?
There are plenty of people in the Western world who need help. Health and education are just two of the myriad of areas where the money currently being spent on backing up a bunch of crackpot Arab despots and extremist Jews could be better spent. Why the hell arn't the people in America, or Australia, or Britian, coming FIRST? The governments in Washington, London and Canberra where put there by us, the people, to represent us! We come first! NOT the people of the Middle East!
[/end rant]
1) Israel has a kick-arse military. Just about their entire population can fight, and they're not using bad equipment. They're using state of the art military technology backed up by excellent training and leadership. Israel has already beaten all it's neighbours on two pervious occassions, with no outside assistance. Why does everyone suddenly assume that they can't do it again?
2) Israel has nukes. Israel will definitely use them if they were invaded and they couldn't win. So every Arab country would have to have leaders who would be willing to sacrifice their entire countries for no reward. Ain't going to happen. Though many Middle Eastern leaders arn't nice guys, they're not suicidal. Their hatred for Israel goes as far as sending some funding to terrorist groups. They are not going to sacrifice everything they have. Why do I say this? Because they havn't done it. Nothing is stopping these Middle Eastern guys from firing up their armies and plowing into Israel right now. Nothing except, of course, the military might of Israel and the certain destruction of every Arab city in the Middle East.
3) Israel doesn't need the US. Seriously they don't. They don't need the funding. They don't need the alliance. They don't need anyone. They've got cash, military strength and nukes. Why the hell are we still sending these guys billions of dollars?
I say just pull out. Let the whole region do whatever the hell they want. Because in all likelyhood, what will happen if the West just pulls out of the Middle East is that things will continue just the way they are now, except terrorist groups will lose heaps of their support. Israel will still be there, uninvaded. The Saudis, Iranians and Iraqis will keep selling oil to the world and putting that money into palaces whilst neglecting their own people. And so WHAT? Why should our people die, and our tax dollars be spent trying to "help" people who don't want to be helped in the first place? The Middle East doesn't like us! They don't want us there! If they want to continue to be ruled by crazy theocratical governments and despots then let them! As long as the oil keeps flowing everything is peachy right?
There are plenty of people in the Western world who need help. Health and education are just two of the myriad of areas where the money currently being spent on backing up a bunch of crackpot Arab despots and extremist Jews could be better spent. Why the hell arn't the people in America, or Australia, or Britian, coming FIRST? The governments in Washington, London and Canberra where put there by us, the people, to represent us! We come first! NOT the people of the Middle East!
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I'm with Ryo now - I stand convinced. To hell with those Arabs and Jews, if they prolly aint gonna nuke, then let them do whatever they please. I havent got a scrap of sympathy for those arabs, there is no way in hell they are going to help themselves, so lets abandon them to their fate. If they wish to take on the Zionists they can do so, but they have to be prepared for the backlash.
Sod the Arabs - lets take care of ourselves. And just in case you think the above is sarcasm - it isnt.
It's not a matter of if, it's a matter of when. Israel may fend off the first attack. Or the first hundred- but they can't stand alone. It may be 50 years from then before they're faced with a use it or lose it situation with the nukes. No one is saying it will be sudden.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->So every Arab country would have to have leaders who would be willing to sacrifice their entire countries for no reward. Ain't going to happen.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Didn't stop them before.
It's not a matter of if, it's a matter of when. Israel may fend off the first attack. Or the first hundred- but they can't stand alone. It may be 50 years from then before they're faced with a use it or lose it situation with the nukes. No one is saying it will be sudden.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->So every Arab country would have to have leaders who would be willing to sacrifice their entire countries for no reward. Ain't going to happen.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Didn't stop them before. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
I dont know about that Burncycle. The Arabs have only ever gone all out on the Israeli's when they think they can win. American support or no the Israeli military is by far the best in the region, they have the balls to use it, and they have nukes to ensure that if they dont win - no one does.
So the Arab leaders just keep the people in a constant state of unrest, blaming all their problems on the Israeli's to keep them from recognising the real problems that face them, but never actually attack. The leaders are greedy, corrupt filth with no real concern for anything but their own hide. They dont want said hide to get nuclear fallout on it - nor do they want to risk it in full scale war.
The definition of terrorism is relative to which side you're on. I'm sure the Japanese felt Americans were not very nice to drop two nuclear weapons on their soil, indiscriminantly killing hundreds of thousands of people in one fell swoop. Yet the Japanese quickly surrendered, and it was the right thing to do to save their nation from additional nuclear holocaust. Both sides in a war result to killing people, that's what happens in a war. Just because the other side does not have nuclear submarines, nuclear aircraft carriers, B-2 bombers, stealth fighters, daisy-cutter bombs, and countless trillions of dollars in additional high-tech weaponry at their disposal does not make what they fight for or how they fight wrong. We killed lots of innocent Japanese civilians to bring about the end WW2. Everyone knows this was the right thing to do, even though it was atrocious and unspeakably horrible in nature. And the "terrorists" (the US of A) won. The Japanese have long since forgiven, although they have not forgotten. I suspect the Middle East will also forgive, if not forget. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
<!--emo&???--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/confused.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='confused.gif'><!--endemo--> What your saying doesn't take into account the situation at the time. How many US and Japanese soldiers would die in the invasion of Japan? My grandfather would have probably died. The US government had the choice between losing hundreds of thousands of our soldiers OUR CITIZENS and the Japanese. The US government decided it valued its own soldiers over the Japanese. One protects one's own. Japan was an imperialist state. They bombed Pearl Harbor during peace talks, they invaded China and many Pacific islands, 1 in 3 POWs in Japan died comparatively to about 1 in 30 in Germany. Japan had suicide fighter wings, soldiers suicided rather than let the US take them prisoner. After the US occupation of Japan which took several years, Japan became a democratic state. Japan is now one of the most prosperous nations in the world. Though it was a terrible loss of life it was the right choice at the time to end the war quicly rather than having MORE people die over years of war. The Japanese had killed innocents as well.
I find it strange that people seriously believe that the moment US funding ceases to Israel, the nation will vanish and every Arab country will invade
It's not a matter of if, it's a matter of when. Israel may fend off the first attack. Or the first hundred- but they can't stand alone. It may be 50 years from then before they're faced with a use it or lose it situation with the nukes. No one is saying it will be sudden.
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So every Arab country would have to have leaders who would be willing to sacrifice their entire countries for no reward. Ain't going to happen.
Didn't stop them before.
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In response to the first part, every time Arab armies have tried to take on Israel the Arabs have walked out with a bloody nose and thousands of casualties. You think that the Arabs can just instantly replenish all the aircraft, tanks, soldiers and weaponry they lose each time they attack? It takes time to do this, and in a war of attrition, the Israelis have the money and technology to win. In a straight out fight, the Arabs can't win. They just can't.
In response to the second part, the reason the Arabs went in before was that Israel didn't have nukes. Now that Israel has nukes, surprise surprise no Arab leader is dumb enough to try and invade. Look at the 1st Gulf War; Saddam fired Scuds at israel, but was he stupid enough to load them with anthrax and mustard gas, an action which would have almost guareenteed an Israeli nuclear response? No he did not. And Saddam is about as crazy as they get in the Middle East.
Those are the simple facts: No Arabic army has been able to defeat Israel. No current Arabic army can defeat Israel. Even if by some miracle Arabic armies did manage to defeat Israel's military forces, there's still those 200 odd nukes attached to Jericho MRBMs, and guess what: they ain't targetted on Iceland. The Arabs can't win. They have no chance of winning. A while ago, say 30 or 40 years back, yeah they had a chance, and they took it. But now? No way.