Yesterday ir and xen had a 3.0b scrim, and we were testing a bit also at the same time, but there was alot of ping problems, but we played thru it. xen got an onos, when we were playing tanith, and we had jp and hmg's already, and a couple of lmg'ers were shooting him, and, our jp/hmg went after it and, the onos died, i find that the onos dies easier in 3.0b then in 2.01, so for those who keep saying that onos will be overpowered... I don't think it is, and maybe in public play, if players can't work together, but in clan play i say it's easier then ever.
3 rines with hmg should be able to kill a single onos. its 3 rines working together and thus they are superior.
just give the onos one lerk to his side with umbra. this tripples the onos health (3x 1900 "hp" = 5700 "hp") and it tripples its regeneration rate (3x 81 health per tick = 243 hp per tick). this does cost a little bit more than than 3 ha + hmgs, but will surely own them their pants away.
teamwork > everything
PS: unfortunately i'm no playtester und thus flame away *burn*
Right now it's pretty easy to kill an onos with a hmg. I did it yesterday pretty often. It's still easier to kill an onos than in 2.01... The only problem I see are turret farms. IMHO onos still needs a little boost in hp/armor but maybe the light damage from turrets has to be removed.
Now onos is good for regular ns but combat it can be too easy to get early in the game. Unless welding is made 5x faster onos just do too much damage to cc to make the games last.
I think opposite of what some of you think.. I'm no playtester, but from what I can see it seems to me that the onos needs 'more' health/AR rather then less.. 900/500 SOUNDS like a lot, but if you sit down and think about it, it's not so bad at all really..
Dunno wjere some of these people got these numbers but a shotgun does 16 dmg per pellet. Lvl 3 ups is going to make that ~170 damage per shot, and with the new hitboxes, we can all assume hitting an onos will all those pellets isn't that difficult, or not as much as before. For a clip of 8, that's ~1500 damage if you unload, which isn't enough to kill the onos, but enough to mortally wound him. Thats just a single marine who unloads a clip into an onos.
Theorycraft and real in-game results are two totoally different things.. but analyzing the numbers can still give you a good idea of what the potential is there.
Take the HMG for example.. 18 damage a bullet now, doing ~23 damage per bullet with lvl 3 upgrades. an HMG has a clip of 125, and we'll say the marine only manages to unload 65 of those rounds before he turns and runs(This marine is alone in a hallway). While the HMG does have a good spread on it, the new hitbox means we can assume with any decent level of aiming that at least 40 of those bullets are going to find their mark on the new onos hitboxes. Simple math from there says that 23x40 = ~1000 damage. And we were quite generous with the circumstances I think. In close combat, the onos is going to be at a huge disadvantage since the close proximity means more concentrated fire(More bullets are going to hit closer up). Even 2 people with HMG's hitting the onos with 40 bullets each = ~2000 damage, which, factoring regen, is going to leave the onos mortally wounded and probably dead when the onos gets pistoled by a few LMGers. Any level of teamwork is going to take down an onos easily.
Even LMG's. They deal 13 damage per bullet(lvl 3), and unloading the whole 50 round clip takes only seconds. 3 LMGers in a room with an onos, say 120 of the bullets hit(Generous sum for the onos's favor), which is 120x13 = ~1500 damage, again leaving the onos mortally wounded. A volley of pistol shots would likely finish it off.
Let's look even at completely favorable conditions.. Only 3 HMGers with lvl 0 ups(18 damage), with umbra.
Let's say all three fire a net total of 250 rounds(Another generous estimate, when even an LMGer takes 2-3 hits and, as we all know, marines jumping around like mad can be difficult to hit sometimes)
250x18 = 4500 damage total, now we factor umbra which supposedly blocks 2 of 3 bullets under the most favorable of conditions, which means 4500 turns into 1500 damage, once more leaving the onos mortally wounded.
The above example was LARGELY in the onos's favor. Most onii won't be so lucky to run into only 3 HMGers by themselves with no LMG backup, not wearing HA(And taking longer to kill, or in other words, giving the marines time to unload ALL their ammo instead of roughly only half), with lvl 0 upgrades no less(Almost completely unlikely). Even under such favorable odds including Umbra that blocks a literal 2 of 3 bullets, the onos is still almost dead. Under normal combat situations, this onos is probably dead as the marines will spread out enough to not all be stunned at once(A hallway might work out for the onos in a situation like this, making them easier to stun at once). But again, not all onii will run into perfect conditions.. Even a good onos who knows when and WHERE to pick his fights won't be in the most perfect conditions possible.
Anyways, it's all theorycraft, anything we say, including everything I said above..
But I think you can take what I said with at least some credibility. Simply put, the onos certainly isn't unstoppable in 3.0 I would think. He might even be too weak.
[ADEMA], I don't think you comprehend we are talking about 3.0 here not 2.01. In 2.01 your hitbox in the center of the onos is about the size of a Fade. Moving around an strafing down a hall vs 4 people that don't that and even 1 or 2 who do. Your not getting hit with that much. Now in 3.0 the onos hitbox is as big as on the onos model. Any noobs down a corridor that are pointing at you now will be hitting you WITH EVERY SINGLE SHOT. Ever taken abit of close range hmg? Shredded onos. Now picture that insane damage you were taking from all the bullets hitting but now imagine that every time. 900|500 is still too weak.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> te new oni hps (900hps,500ap), isnt that a bit unbalanced?? shotys only do bout 100 damage a shot and te onos can just stomp a group or arines with shotys and even then its probebly bout 10 hits to kil it hmg and lmg r only 24/13 at lv3 2 D: <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<a href='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/index.php?act=ST&f=1&t=56029' target='_blank'>Just sit back, and let the playtesters/vets/CMs do the work.</a> <!--emo&???--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/confused.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='confused.gif'><!--endemo-->
how is the healing (regen and def chambers) tweaked with new onos? With 900 hp, in the 2.xx system, it would take forever to fully heal an onos, making turtling in too easy for rines. But if the healing rate were scaled to exactly the same ratio as in 2.xx an onos with regen will be invincable to all kinds of automated defences (I dont mean it would last a long time, it would literally not take damage due to the massive amounts of hitpoints being healed per tick)
It probably isn't actually that much of a problem, but I was jsut wondering if there has been any thought put into these issues, since whenever someone recomends raising hitpoints or armor for something, this is ussually the factor they leave out. turrets doing less damage to onos than they already do probably isn't the worst possible thing that could happen in the game, but it would still be a balancing issue in 3.0 that didnt exist in 2.xx
Swift, regen is fine, as it has always been percentage based. around 80 points per tick, its quite a considerable amount. But, as for hive (20 points I think) and dcs (10 per chamber) it takes a very, very long time. Normally I find in combat most incounters leave me around 300-500 hp left. Without regen I might as well run into MS and die horribly. It would be nice if the DCs and hive were tweaked to heal onos (and only onos) faster.. say 30 for the hive and 15 for DCs simply because for combat the current numbers take an onos out of the game longer than it would just to die and respawn.
<!--QuoteBegin--Afr+Dec 10 2003, 05:00 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Afr @ Dec 10 2003, 05:00 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> The onos hp is fine for regular ns, but a bit unbalanced in the beginning of a combat game. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> It's funny, because I always thought that combat would use an entirely different ruleset to basic NS. It doesn't really seem to make much sense not too :/
I find onos too strong even in 2.xx...... you need team work to kill them... but also alien that team working ALWAYS onw marines.
often Onos have regen or redemption... or simply they run away and get healed by chambers or gorges...... Onos are too strong. Simply marine with lmg can't fight them even with team working... but the problem is that lmg and turrets simply are too weak.
2 careful jp'ler with hmg can easiely kill every onos. everyone has to hit 50 shots and 100 res are gone for good. dunno how u call it english. we call the principle "scissors, rock, paper".
scissors > paper paper > rock rock > scissors
an onos should always be superior to small-medium marine squads.
<!--QuoteBegin--Aegeri+Dec 10 2003, 01:18 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Aegeri @ Dec 10 2003, 01:18 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin--Afr+Dec 10 2003, 05:00 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Afr @ Dec 10 2003, 05:00 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> The onos hp is fine for regular ns, but a bit unbalanced in the beginning of a combat game. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> It's funny, because I always thought that combat would use an entirely different ruleset to basic NS. It doesn't really seem to make much sense not too :/ <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> The idea is that combat is going to be a stepping stone to get people interested in regular NS. The more the same the games are the easier that transition is going to be. That's why there is such hesitation.
Related to the above, I think the alien multi-upgrade allowance in NS:C compared to a single upgrade per chamber type in NS is going to make a lot of new players hate regular NS just because you get fewer abilities, but we'll see.
I didn't read all the thread so i'll just post my bare opinion.
900 HPs for the Onos MAY seem too much.
But put that against six HAs with level 3 HMGs.
the actual onos with 500 hps and standard carapace gets CREAMED in a fraction of second against such barrage, so i think more life and armor for our cow will just help to balance the HA train's super power.
<!--QuoteBegin--XenoBwtaliS+Dec 10 2003, 02:42 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (XenoBwtaliS @ Dec 10 2003, 02:42 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> (the Lerk also needs some love imho) <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> Definitely.
I like the health of the new onos. Killing an average 2.0x onos simply requires me and one other marine with an lmg that knows where to shoot. It's just sad. I've seen so many onos die to rediculously small groups of vanilla marines. It's no longer wherther or not you've killed an onos, it's how many onos in one game you killed with a knife. <!--emo&???--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/confused.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='confused.gif'><!--endemo-->
Well the new Onos is so easy to hit now, not like 2.1s Onos! A level 1 HMG can't kill it (normal non cara Onos) in 1 clip, level 2 almost ever round has to hit, level 3, You will lose a man or two, but that onos wont be coming back! <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin.gif'><!--endemo-->
It would be nice if carapace was boosted so it would, you know, actually be of use to something else besides a 1 hive skulk. Then onos wouldn't need to take fire for half a second, losing 3/4 his hps in the process, and retreat to let regen to its thing.
Well the new Onos is so easy to hit now, not like 2.1s Onos! A level 1 HMG can't kill it (normal non cara Onos) in 1 clip, level 2 almost ever round has to hit, level 3, You will lose a man or two, but that onos wont be coming back! <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin.gif'><!--endemo--> <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> 'laugh' Too true. When your an Onos don't let your HP's fool ya. Those HMG's are killers! <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin.gif'><!--endemo-->
carapace is useless in 3.0 for an onos from what I hear, you take damage with it and you will never heal again (you'd have to sit in the hive for like 3 minutes to recover all the hp and armor an onos now has at the current hp per tick ratio)
at 80 hp per tick, regen is now the only viable onos upgrade, even redempt would be nearly useless due to the time you would spend hivecamping after your warp.
Call me crazy, but I think the upgrades should be reasonably balanced for every creature, so that every path is a viable choice in one situation or another. Otherwize, why not have carapace give +20 armor for all lifeforms, its only useful to the skulk either way.
Comments
<!--emo&::onos::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tiny.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tiny.gif'><!--endemo--> + <!--emo&::gorge::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/pudgy.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='pudgy.gif'><!--endemo--> = <!--emo&:0--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/wow.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='wow.gif'><!--endemo-->
It really isn't that hard to kill with upgraded HMG and/or GL.
3 rines with hmg should be able to kill a single onos. its 3 rines working together and thus they are superior.
just give the onos one lerk to his side with umbra. this tripples the onos health (3x 1900 "hp" = 5700 "hp") and it tripples its regeneration rate (3x 81 health per tick = 243 hp per tick). this does cost a little bit more than than 3 ha + hmgs, but will surely own them their pants away.
teamwork > everything
PS: unfortunately i'm no playtester und thus flame away *burn*
Dunno wjere some of these people got these numbers but a shotgun does 16 dmg per pellet. Lvl 3 ups is going to make that ~170 damage per shot, and with the new hitboxes, we can all assume hitting an onos will all those pellets isn't that difficult, or not as much as before. For a clip of 8, that's ~1500 damage if you unload, which isn't enough to kill the onos, but enough to mortally wound him. Thats just a single marine who unloads a clip into an onos.
Theorycraft and real in-game results are two totoally different things.. but analyzing the numbers can still give you a good idea of what the potential is there.
Take the HMG for example.. 18 damage a bullet now, doing ~23 damage per bullet with lvl 3 upgrades. an HMG has a clip of 125, and we'll say the marine only manages to unload 65 of those rounds before he turns and runs(This marine is alone in a hallway). While the HMG does have a good spread on it, the new hitbox means we can assume with any decent level of aiming that at least 40 of those bullets are going to find their mark on the new onos hitboxes. Simple math from there says that 23x40 = ~1000 damage. And we were quite generous with the circumstances I think. In close combat, the onos is going to be at a huge disadvantage since the close proximity means more concentrated fire(More bullets are going to hit closer up). Even 2 people with HMG's hitting the onos with 40 bullets each = ~2000 damage, which, factoring regen, is going to leave the onos mortally wounded and probably dead when the onos gets pistoled by a few LMGers. Any level of teamwork is going to take down an onos easily.
Even LMG's. They deal 13 damage per bullet(lvl 3), and unloading the whole 50 round clip takes only seconds. 3 LMGers in a room with an onos, say 120 of the bullets hit(Generous sum for the onos's favor), which is 120x13 = ~1500 damage, again leaving the onos mortally wounded. A volley of pistol shots would likely finish it off.
Let's look even at completely favorable conditions.. Only 3 HMGers with lvl 0 ups(18 damage), with umbra.
Let's say all three fire a net total of 250 rounds(Another generous estimate, when even an LMGer takes 2-3 hits and, as we all know, marines jumping around like mad can be difficult to hit sometimes)
250x18 = 4500 damage total, now we factor umbra which supposedly blocks 2 of 3 bullets under the most favorable of conditions, which means 4500 turns into 1500 damage, once more leaving the onos mortally wounded.
The above example was LARGELY in the onos's favor. Most onii won't be so lucky to run into only 3 HMGers by themselves with no LMG backup, not wearing HA(And taking longer to kill, or in other words, giving the marines time to unload ALL their ammo instead of roughly only half), with lvl 0 upgrades no less(Almost completely unlikely). Even under such favorable odds including Umbra that blocks a literal 2 of 3 bullets, the onos is still almost dead. Under normal combat situations, this onos is probably dead as the marines will spread out enough to not all be stunned at once(A hallway might work out for the onos in a situation like this, making them easier to stun at once). But again, not all onii will run into perfect conditions.. Even a good onos who knows when and WHERE to pick his fights won't be in the most perfect conditions possible.
Anyways, it's all theorycraft, anything we say, including everything I said above..
But I think you can take what I said with at least some credibility. Simply put, the onos certainly isn't unstoppable in 3.0 I would think. He might even be too weak.
<a href='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/index.php?act=ST&f=1&t=56029' target='_blank'>Just sit back, and let the playtesters/vets/CMs do the work.</a>
<!--emo&???--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/confused.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='confused.gif'><!--endemo-->
Patagium possibly. Not sure if it is the same term used in bats.
"funk attack"
full of pelvis thrusting action
It probably isn't actually that much of a problem, but I was jsut wondering if there has been any thought put into these issues, since whenever someone recomends raising hitpoints or armor for something, this is ussually the factor they leave out. turrets doing less damage to onos than they already do probably isn't the worst possible thing that could happen in the game, but it would still be a balancing issue in 3.0 that didnt exist in 2.xx
It's funny, because I always thought that combat would use an entirely different ruleset to basic NS. It doesn't really seem to make much sense not too :/
often Onos have regen or redemption... or simply they run away and get healed by chambers or gorges...... Onos are too strong. Simply marine with lmg can't fight them even with team working... but the problem is that lmg and turrets simply are too weak.
scissors > paper
paper > rock
rock > scissors
an onos should always be superior to small-medium marine squads.
It's funny, because I always thought that combat would use an entirely different ruleset to basic NS. It doesn't really seem to make much sense not too :/ <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
The idea is that combat is going to be a stepping stone to get people interested in regular NS. The more the same the games are the easier that transition is going to be. That's why there is such hesitation.
The New onos is NS:C is AHHHHHH
900 HPs for the Onos MAY seem too much.
But put that against six HAs with level 3 HMGs.
the actual onos with 500 hps and standard carapace gets CREAMED in a fraction of second against such barrage, so i think more life and armor for our cow will just help to balance the HA train's super power.
(the Lerk also needs some love imho)
Definitely.
I like the health of the new onos. Killing an average 2.0x onos simply requires me and one other marine with an lmg that knows where to shoot. It's just sad. I've seen so many onos die to rediculously small groups of vanilla marines. It's no longer wherther or not you've killed an onos, it's how many onos in one game you killed with a knife. <!--emo&???--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/confused.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='confused.gif'><!--endemo-->
Well the new Onos is so easy to hit now, not like 2.1s Onos!
A level 1 HMG can't kill it (normal non cara Onos) in 1 clip, level 2 almost ever round has to hit, level 3, You will lose a man or two, but that onos wont be coming back! <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin.gif'><!--endemo-->
Well the new Onos is so easy to hit now, not like 2.1s Onos!
A level 1 HMG can't kill it (normal non cara Onos) in 1 clip, level 2 almost ever round has to hit, level 3, You will lose a man or two, but that onos wont be coming back! <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin.gif'><!--endemo--> <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
'laugh' Too true. When your an Onos don't let your HP's fool ya. Those HMG's are killers! <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin.gif'><!--endemo-->
at 80 hp per tick, regen is now the only viable onos upgrade, even redempt would be nearly useless due to the time you would spend hivecamping after your warp.
Call me crazy, but I think the upgrades should be reasonably balanced for every creature, so that every path is a viable choice in one situation or another. Otherwize, why not have carapace give +20 armor for all lifeforms, its only useful to the skulk either way.