I Feel That Ns Needs One Thing

CommunistWithAGunCommunistWithAGun Local Propaganda Guy Join Date: 2003-04-30 Member: 15953Members
<div class="IPBDescription">And that thing is...</div> More indesicion. I wish that the game wasn't decided (for pubs) within the first five minutes. Anyone else have feelings about this?
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Comments

  • uranium_235uranium_235 Join Date: 2002-11-20 Member: 9478Banned
    If you ever play an RTS game against someone in a smallish map, you'll notice that games usually end quickly. Unfortunately, in the tiny NS maps, it'll remain the way it is <!--emo&:(--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/sad.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='sad.gif'><!--endemo-->
  • Barneys_SoulBarneys_Soul Join Date: 2003-08-18 Member: 19896Members
    ushily u no whos gona win in bout 9, not 5 :/
  • AlignAlign Remain Calm Join Date: 2002-11-02 Member: 5216Forum Moderators, Constellation
    (The man is saying: Usually you know who's going to win in about 9[minutes], not 5 :/)

    Well, I commanded a game not too long ago where we basically had won, but then the aliens managed a comeback. So it's not always decided like that.
    Besides, is there any way to directly address this?
  • CommunistWithAGunCommunistWithAGun Local Propaganda Guy Join Date: 2003-04-30 Member: 15953Members
    Well of course they're exceptions to the rule, I don't deny that, but NS public games are usually decided within the first few minutes, usually by the second or third resource count.
  • MavMav Join Date: 2003-11-16 Member: 22985Members
    Not to mention the Aliens have no real good counter against an HA train, and likewise for marines against res **** who like to go lerk in two minutes and spore the marine base from a vent nested in the wall.

    I still don't see a turret cap for the marines. Back in 1.04 and earlier, if you whored it up in your base long enough you could build so many turrets that it was impossible for the aliens to penetrate. I ran into yet another game like that today and after a couple hours the marines had to F4 because the elevation and amount of firepower made everything a stalemate.

    Umbra used to be a good counter to this, but I guess it got seriously nerfed, as far as I can tell. Web used to be a good counter to HA train too, but now that it's at third hive, web has lost all it's tactical importance, and has now become a mere novelty at hive 3. If a smart commander relocates into a hive and camps on a high platform with turrets, they can **** up an HA train on one or two towers, and there's not much the aliens can do about it, exept sneak a gorge in there to put up a hive and movement in, but even that's a lucky shot.


    I haven't played 2.1 yet, but I hope it improves the mind-numbing lineraity that 2.01 suffers from. Every game has the same focus, marines try to **** on res towers for an HA train, and aliens try to wipe out the marines before they get an HA train. The HA train is the deciding point of the game, because a well coordinated HA train is absolutely unstoppable by anything. I have never seen one taken down, nor have I ever been taken down while participating in one, have you?
  • LegatLegat Join Date: 2003-07-02 Member: 17868Members
    I have been in Trains taken down and i have taken down trains myself(not siglehanded of course).

    The difficulty in killing trains is the maplayout that resticts a combined attack with several onos most of the time.
    The key is to find a good ambush place where you can bring your full force to bear. One onos stompspams, the rest attacks the train. Does work fine with several skulks or fades too though, all you need is a reliable stomper with adren.
  • SpiderSpider Join Date: 2002-12-15 Member: 10874Members
    The key is to never give up. <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo--> If after the dirst 5 minutes of the game you believe the enemy is going to win of course they're going too. Too often I've been commanding a game and it hits a certain point where the marines believe they've lost and start going stupid. Admitadly yes, it is difficult to come back from a bad start but it can be done!!! Espically with aliens but marines also pull of some amazing comebacks.

    The game is only decided in the first 5 minutes because you choose it to be.
  • SuBSuB AusNS Forum Admin Join Date: 2003-02-18 Member: 13723Members
    <!--QuoteBegin--CommunistWithAGun+Nov 20 2003, 02:38 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (CommunistWithAGun @ Nov 20 2003, 02:38 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Well of course they're exceptions to the rule, I don't deny that, but NS public games are usually decided within the first few minutes, usually by the second or third resource count. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
    I'd say the game is decided as soon as people choose a team... the better team (those that play well as a team and marines have a comm) will generally win.

    Funny that.
  • ScuzballScuzball Join Date: 2003-09-08 Member: 20657Members, Constellation, Reinforced - Shadow
    <!--QuoteBegin--Legat+Nov 20 2003, 03:43 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Legat @ Nov 20 2003, 03:43 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> I have been in Trains taken down and i have taken down trains myself(not siglehanded of course).

    The difficulty in killing trains is the maplayout that resticts a combined attack with several onos most of the time.
    The key is to find a good ambush place where you can bring your full force to bear. One onos stompspams, the rest attacks the train. Does work fine with several skulks or fades too though, all you need is a reliable stomper with adren. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
    I'd say a good portion of the game-deciding HA trains come long before anyone has onos... let alone several.
  • PseudoKnightPseudoKnight Join Date: 2002-06-18 Member: 791Members
    They are usually decided so early because you can already tell which team consists of better players. If the teams are even it takes more time for this decision mark. This is not a balancing issue. This is a simple issue of varied skills.
  • LucidLucid Join Date: 2002-12-11 Member: 10534Members, Constellation
    stop getting heavy armor and learn how to use a jetpack you pansies
  • FlashFlash Join Date: 2002-10-31 Member: 1783Members, Constellation
    <!--QuoteBegin--Lucid+Nov 20 2003, 04:00 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Lucid @ Nov 20 2003, 04:00 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> stop getting heavy armor and learn how to use a jetpack you pansies <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
    Tell that to the comms <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin.gif'><!--endemo--> They refuse to consider JPs most of the time.
  • KazeKaze Join Date: 2003-09-01 Member: 20447Members
    How can you say you've never seen a HA train been taken down Mav <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif'><!--endemo-->
    I know you've got a point to prove but don't make it unbelievable now
  • Umbraed_MonkeyUmbraed_Monkey Join Date: 2002-11-25 Member: 9922Members
    <!--QuoteBegin--CommunistWithAGun+Nov 20 2003, 01:34 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (CommunistWithAGun @ Nov 20 2003, 01:34 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> More indesicion. I wish that the game wasn't decided (for pubs) within the first five minutes. Anyone else have feelings about this? <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
    Yep. tis the only reason I miss the ol' 1.0x's. Those games keep going back and forth for quite a while. Thats why NS was so time consuming, and thats why it was so addictive.
  • remiremi remedy [blu.knight] Join Date: 2003-11-18 Member: 23112Members, Super Administrators, Forum Admins, NS2 Developer, NS2 Playtester
    I played a really fun game once... probably not so much fun for the rines, but anyways...

    I managed to go onos at about the same time they got a HA train of like 5 people. now, most of my team was skulk, and like one fade. The heavies were at horseshoe, we had two hives, and I had regen and adren.

    I went in there, stomp digested one, stomped them all, gored another, while they were continueslly being stomped they were also being hit by skulks and fades, the HA train was gone in a matter of seconds. It was just sweet.
  • LichoLicho Join Date: 2002-11-02 Member: 3858Members, NS1 Playtester
    edited November 2003
    <!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->The game is only decided in the first 5 minutes because you choose it to be.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->

    Yes, if only people not give up too early, NS is best if you can make comeback and win against all odds :-) And yes it's possible. Yes better team usually wins game, but i'v seen far better team loosing game beacause of bad comming, wrong alien strategy or small detail like onos managing to rush base while everyone out :-)
    So don't just give up!
  • DiablusDiablus Join Date: 2003-03-31 Member: 15080Members
    edited November 2003
    i really do agree commi. Usually when all or most aliens dont put up nodes in the beginning then u can count on marines winning, i really hate games where u get a team of people who dont listen to you and go and do thier own thing, and u end up having 1 res tower the whole game, they all go onos, and die because they dont even bother to put a chamber, it seems most pub games im the only one dropping rts and chambers. too bad its getting more and more common <!--emo&:(--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/sad.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='sad.gif'><!--endemo--> , we should just get a server up for only for active forum users <!--emo&:0--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/wow.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='wow.gif'><!--endemo--> seeing how ppl arent mute the whole game and do thier own thing (well most of the time at least)
  • Umbraed_MonkeyUmbraed_Monkey Join Date: 2002-11-25 Member: 9922Members
    <!--QuoteBegin--Diablus+Nov 20 2003, 07:27 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Diablus @ Nov 20 2003, 07:27 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> i really hate games where u get a team of people who dont listen to you and go and do thier own thing, and u end up having 1 res tower the whole game, they all go onos, and die because they dont even bother to put a chamber <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
    If theres one thing you can count on, its people's selfishness.
  • MrMojoMrMojo Join Date: 2002-11-25 Member: 9882Members, Constellation
    I think marines need masks to confuse and scare the aliens.
  • DarkDudeDarkDude Join Date: 2003-08-06 Member: 19088Members
    edited November 2003
    I think marines need the nuke back just to **** off the aliens.
  • FlikFlik Join Date: 2003-09-28 Member: 21286Members
    It's only that way because the losing team ends up sitting around doing nothing. Most comms lose because after their plan fails, they just can't make up another one, and once again, the marines are stuck doing nothing.

    Same for aliens, cept the drawback to them is that their expansion is a bit more linear (but in need of more space). Once the marines stop their expansion, the avarage alien team would just...fall apart.
  • xl-cowxl-cow Join Date: 2003-09-24 Member: 21163Members
    More indecision? The thing that makes most games decided in the first 5 minutes is team indecision. That's enough for anyone.


    Now more decision, that's the rub. I've seen / led / experienced more decisive counter-attacks and strategic fronts than I care to complain about stagnant players.

    Stagnant or static players, make the game difficult and less dynamic.
  • TheWizardTheWizard Join Date: 2002-12-11 Member: 10553Members, Constellation
    The beauty of Pubs is: You never really know.

    The marines could be winning one minute, then a few of them have to leave the game to go to class or something. Now the Aliens have a multi-man advantage that they can capitolize on.

    One of the most see-saw games I was ever on was on a pub. First marines were winning, we pushed them back into a hive, they broke out and took down one of our hives and locked it down. Somehow we recovered it. and Pushed them back again.

    1 hour 30 minutes later, Aliens won after "certain defeat"

    I love my pub.
  • MavMav Join Date: 2003-11-16 Member: 22985Members
    Well, most of the time it's the fault of one team for letting the other team make a comeback, whether it's lack of applying pressure or even playing the game.

    I know my team can be totally owning it up at the beginning, then all of a sudden the team stops communicating and stops caring about following orders, and then the other team makes a comeback. The other team always thinks it was some marvelous show of skill on their part, when it was really just a lack of teamwork on our part.

    If an HA train gets owned by stomp, or can't even jump/dodge it, then that's not a well coordinated HA train. That's a n00b HA train. Durhh. <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif'><!--endemo-->
  • ShockehShockeh If a packet drops on the web and nobody&#39;s near to see it... Join Date: 2002-11-19 Member: 9336NS1 Playtester, Forum Moderators, Constellation
    <!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->If an HA train gets owned by stomp, or can't even jump/dodge it, then that's not a well coordinated HA train. That's a n00b HA train. Durhh.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->

    That statement alone is worth an entire locked flame filled thread. Stomp at the moment is the single most talentless skill to use, and basically with one mash of the button a single Oni can ensure a <i>travelling</i> (no, not static and waiting to rain HMG death on the Oni as it moves in) HA Train is utterly screwed. The Oni just has to be bright enough to do it in a corridor, and then has to keep them vaguely stationary until the rest of the alien team gets there for lunch.

    ===============================================
    [/RANT]

    Right, as for the swing of games. I agree games are decided a little too early now, however there are comebacks. The problem is these comebacks <b>only come from the inadequacy of the winning team to keep pressure up,</b> not the ability of the losing team to fight harder. The only time you see a comeback is when the winners get complacent and start to basically p*ss about, rather than doing what they should be doing.

    I have absolutely nil idea how that can be resolved, but that's how it seems to stand in 2.x
  • MavMav Join Date: 2003-11-16 Member: 22985Members
    IMO in order to apply that scenario, you would have to assume that Onos being smarter than the rest of the entire HA train, or have the HA train be completely stupified against the Onos.

    It's not even that hard to avoid stomp, because myself and everyone else I run into can do it just fine. If you can dodge a hopping skulk on celerity, you can definately dodge a stomping Onos. It's a very linear attack with deceptively bad range.


    And even in the situation an Onos stomps a train, you better hope that Onos stuns every single person in that train, or that Onos is dying very fast. It only takes one or two HMGs to shred an Onos in seconds, even fully upgraded LMGs will rip into a Onos very hard.

    Plus, it's not that hard to anticipate an ambush, don't run blindly through passageways and around corners, use LMG scouts, pay attention to MT, ping once in a while. Your chances of even attempting an ambush are limited, it's not a 3 mile hike to any one of your hives. Not to mention how unfriendly the map layouts are to a big bulky Onos.


    But that's all just in my experience, add salt for best results. <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif'><!--endemo-->
  • OtsOts Join Date: 2003-07-30 Member: 18577Members, Constellation
    <!--QuoteBegin--Mav+Nov 20 2003, 03:28 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Mav @ Nov 20 2003, 03:28 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> The HA train is the deciding point of the game, because a well coordinated HA train is absolutely unstoppable by anything. I have never seen one taken down, nor have I ever been taken down while participating in one, have you? <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
    Hah, sure it is. But it doesnt take much to counter it. Just last night i was playing on a 10vs10 server, ns_lost as map, we had 3rd hive coming at equillbrium, i was fading at the moment as the heavys started scrolling down to equilbrium, well. i managed to keep them at bay for awhile, but having not that much support at the time i died and they took the hive down. Anyhows, by that time we had 1 guy going Onos, and when i died i waited awhile for res and went also Onos. As i was almost finished evolving to Onos, the other onos died, :/ . Anyhows it took a long time but essentially got the train down, I'd more likely thank celerity for that, since if i'd probaly died if i'd taken the popular "Stomping Onos" upgrades..


    But, yeah the games can be decided pretty early, but it doesnt happen everytime.
  • Cereal_KillRCereal_KillR Join Date: 2002-10-31 Member: 1837Members
    well, I just played this game, as marine, we had 2 spawns, 1 armory and one tf (non-eleced, we thought the comm did because he said so)

    So we were 6 on the team, in the first few minutes we had 7 RT's (aliens didn't do any RTs it seemed)
    Then the comm said "we just lost base. We lost" and recycled everything (I mean the RT's just as well) + f4ed.

    So, no, the game isn't ALWAYS decided in the first few minutes.
  • MavMav Join Date: 2003-11-16 Member: 22985Members
    edited November 2003
    I also think it depends on the map. Origin is level grounds for both teams in my opinion, whereas Hera is all about keeping the marines out of Hera. 99% of comebacks I've seen on that map are because the marines got too lazy about defending Hera Reception, or the aliens just let them take it. I would say that map is alot more predictable than other maps.


    <!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->So we were 6 on the team, in the first few minutes we had 7 RT's (aliens didn't do any RTs it seemed)
    Then the comm said "we just lost base. We lost" and recycled everything (I mean the RT's just as well) + f4ed.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->

    Haha, I've had commanders like that before. It's usually a couple guys not following orders, then our Commander gets so aggrivated he recycles everything as if we're never going to win. Joy.. <!--emo&::marine::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/marine.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='marine.gif'><!--endemo-->
  • ForlornForlorn Join Date: 2002-11-01 Member: 2634Banned
    <!--QuoteBegin--CommunistWithAGun+Nov 20 2003, 02:34 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (CommunistWithAGun @ Nov 20 2003, 02:34 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> More indesicion. I wish that the game wasn't decided (for pubs) within the first five minutes. Anyone else have feelings about this? <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
    2 Solutions:

    1. Find a different server (hard as hell to get an alien win on HAMPTONS).

    2. Join a clan

    Now that you know the solutions, stop complaining.
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