<!--QuoteBegin--Typhon+Nov 10 2003, 07:45 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Typhon @ Nov 10 2003, 07:45 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> I'm wondering how the 'but when you masturbate you kill millions of possible people' argument holds up for women. If you aren't supposed to have sex until after marriage, but a woman ovulates ~1/month, doesn't that mean she will kill hundreds of 'possible people' before she gets married? And will continue to kill them off even after marriage? And theres nothing you can do to prevent it? An egg is just as much of a 'possible person' as a sperm, arguably far more so (in a sucessfull conception, 100% of the eggs turn into people, while a incredibly small percentage of the sperm do). Lets also not forget that eggs are NOT replenished, while sperm are. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> the arguement doesnt hold up at all. they are only potential lives
Well, you can't say it applies to guys and not girls. If you're argument of "masturbation kills potential people" is correct, then it must also be correct for women too, only they can't prevent it.
I think it is quite silly to be concerned about the death of a few one-celled organisms. Everytime you wash your hands, you're killing a few million life forms on your skin.
<!--QuoteBegin--Hawkeye+Nov 10 2003, 03:39 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Hawkeye @ Nov 10 2003, 03:39 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> I think it is quite silly to be concerned about the death of a few one-celled organisms. Everytime you wash your hands, you're killing a few million life forms on your skin. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> I agree. Besides, if we allow every one of those million people to be born, the human population will exceed the world's carrying capacity. Right now, there are too many people on Earth - and that's only with 1.7 increasing rate. If everyone had whatever-million children... uugh.
EpidemicDark Force GorgeJoin Date: 2003-06-29Member: 17781Members
<!--QuoteBegin--Typhon+Nov 10 2003, 01:45 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Typhon @ Nov 10 2003, 01:45 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> I'm wondering how the 'but when you masturbate you kill millions of possible people' argument holds up for women. If you aren't supposed to have sex until after marriage, but a woman ovulates ~1/month, doesn't that mean she will kill hundreds of 'possible people' before she gets married? And will continue to kill them off even after marriage? And theres nothing you can do to prevent it? An egg is just as much of a 'possible person' as a sperm, arguably far more so (in a sucessfull conception, 100% of the eggs turn into people, while a incredibly small percentage of the sperm do). Lets also not forget that eggs are NOT replenished, while sperm are. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> Granted we cant help that, but we can help masturbation. EG. It's like a few murders out there kill people, but it doesnt mean we should. (see the morality? <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif'><!--endemo--> )
No one ever reads my posts in these threads...sigh...
But anyway, Epidemic: given the fact that your sperm productions just doesn't stop when you reach capacity, even if you say no to masturbation, you will be killing sperm. As I mentioned before, you will make enough sperm to spread your seed to EVERY WOMAN WHO EVER LIVED. If God designed this system, he never ment for us to keep every sperm we ever made because said sperm could produce a person. It's just impossible. And if killing sperm is a sin, I'm afraid all males are going to hell.
EpidemicDark Force GorgeJoin Date: 2003-06-29Member: 17781Members
There is a different between first degree murder and manslaughter isnt there? <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin.gif'><!--endemo-->
<!--QuoteBegin--Asal The Unforgiving+Nov 10 2003, 10:02 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Asal The Unforgiving @ Nov 10 2003, 10:02 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Masturbation is not the only way sperm leaves the body. When the majority of it is dead, the body ejects it the same way it would the waste after eating. Haven't any of you wondered what is going on when you pee clear sometimes? Maybe you never noticed. Anyway, that's dead sperm.
Edit: Inserted a new term for going to the bathroom, due to filter <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> Um actually no, thats water. The human body uses an aerobic respiration process that, simply put, takes glucose and oxygen and turns them into different elements while producing energy for (the cell). One of these elements is water (the water we drink is used for plumping up the cells among other things.) Dead sperm wouldn't lose colorization and then what about semen (not the same as sperm) pee is liquid waste from the body. It is mostly water mixed with other unuseable elements.
<!--QuoteBegin--Epidemic+Nov 10 2003, 07:21 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Epidemic @ Nov 10 2003, 07:21 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> There is a different between first degree murder and manslaughter isnt there? <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin.gif'><!--endemo--> <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Only that first degree was preconcieved, planned, and executed to the letter. Masturbation would more resemble manslaughter in terms of intent. You do it when the urge strikes you. I don't know of too many people who plan three days in advanced to masturbate, much the same as not too many people plan three days in advance to loose control of their car and plow over some pedestrians.
The fact is, even through holding back, you're going to end up killing sperm. Hell, if you want to take that road. If you've been in a relationship for a year or more, and marriage is a very real probability, and she is "in the mood," but you say no due to your belief, are you killing a person that might have been born that night? Those sperm are now dead, and your beliefs killed them. Don't take this as a personal attack, just an example of the MANY loopholes in ANY morale system.
Ultimately, it's up to use to decide which truths to accept and which to throw to the wind. And in a country of freedom, it's our right to do so. Which means I can never judge you for what you do or don't believe.
There is only one truth in all of this. And that is this: Mankind's view of its own procreation is not very sophisticated.
Thus, there is no way you can reasonably argue this one way or the other. Either you have gained hardline moral beliefs which will make you search for reasons for why this should be considered wrong, no matter what those reasons may be. Anything that will convince the heathens. Or, you have accepted it as part of being human and may or may not feel guilty about it, and either way you will not accept the idea of assigning value to the waste produced.
Or, you are neither and don't really want to argue one way or the other. Am I wrong?
My moral values doesn't find masturbation to be wrong. It is something that one should not do to excess but in small doses it can help you remain sane.
And for the record, y'all need to calm down for a day, step back and then come back to this thread. it's getting way too...emotional.
<!--QuoteBegin--[ZAPR]The Thing+Nov 10 2003, 11:49 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> ([ZAPR]The Thing @ Nov 10 2003, 11:49 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> This is soooooo off-topic it shouldnt even be in this board. Go check with your health teacher <b>kiddies</b>. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> If you can't discuss a topic like this without a straight face, be careful who you call a "kiddie."
This goes for everyone, I'm tired of the "I'm above your level" sentiment.
My fiancee was reading this thread and she raised an interesting point: the whole arguement here seems to be from the male's perspective. No-one seems to have brought up female masterbation.
Now all us guys out there shouldn't kid ourselves for a minute that masterbation is purely a male perogative, because it emphatically is not. Women do it, and the general concensus would seem to be that roughly 60% of the female population engages in self-pleasuring. So in looking at women, what grounds exist for them not to do it?
They're not expelling millions of sperm, which some have classed as "murder" or "manslaughter". They're not doing anything harmful to themselves; indeed orgasms help relieve period cramps and pains. Why indeed would anyone object to women masterbating?
Everyone says it is wrong. Most every male person does it, priests included. Women are less compelled to masturbate. It can be inferred from every primary source document relating to Jesus that he did not masturbate.
However, I do not base my ethical and integrity based questions on Church documents. (I would say moral, but morality implies a relationship with some sort of religion). The basic question for me is: Would more harm than good come from...? As far as masturbation is concerned, in today's age especially, that question is impossible to answer. The determining factor then becomes: Is it fun and does it or does it not threaten your life? It is damn fun, and it doesn't threaten my life. Hooray for fapping.
Go look inside your infernal Bible. You'd probably find a passage that says going to the bathroom is a sin.
We're doomed to be sinners anyway, right? What is the big deal? Saying you can't maturbate is no different than saying you can't lie: while nobody might admit it, everybody does it some time or another (some less than others).
My girlfriend is disgusted at the idea of masturbation. She's repelled! YET! She tried it once! I think everyone has at least tried, whether they'll admit it or not.
Perhaps it is disgusting behavior, but we're not saints. We're human, right?
<!--QuoteBegin--Epidemic+Nov 10 2003, 04:52 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Epidemic @ Nov 10 2003, 04:52 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Sperms are possible lives.. of course you're excused if you get killed or steriled or something, but you're masturbating just for pleasure!
Chronos, we're talking about giving them a chance. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> 500 Million sperm per ejaculation.
Presuming 3 Masturbations per week as average, thats 1500 Million sperm per week.
Multiply that by 52 to get one year, thats 78,000 Million Sperm per year.
Presuming 10 Years since I... Stumbled... on the technique, thats 780,000,000,000 sperm "Wasted" over my entire lifetime.
<b>78 BILLION SPERM</b>
Thats enough seed to create every human alive today, and every human that has ever lived, and every human that will come to be for a very very very long time.
Presume that at least 2.5 Billion of the ~3 Billion men on this planet masturbate at the same frequency, and you have so much sperm you dont know whats going on.
If I have three children, thats 3 / 78 Billion.
Three sperms get a chance, 78 Billion less three never have that chance. Ever.
Arguing that each and every sperm was "Meant" to create a life is fallacious as an argument simply because even in the course of natural procreation millions upon millions of sperm are wasted anyway.
And in any case, women also use a similar redundancy scheme. In each Ovary there are 40,000 Eggs. FORTY THOUSAND. If natural fertility lasts forty years, 12 * 40 = 480 Eggs are expelled over the womans lifetime. If three of these become children, then thats still 3 out of 40,000 eggs. 39,997 eggs COMPLETELY AND UTTERLY WASTED.
Sperm are practically manufactured to die. Ova are thrown in the proverbial bin every month regardless of female masturbation. Giving them a chance is pointless, since they practically HAVE no chance.
Personal attacks will NOT be tolerated. If you can't carry on a discussion of this nature without dissolving into throwing insults at people using the anonymity of the internet, then DO NOT POST. </span>
Each sperm is going to die in 2-3 days anyway, theyre just going to sit there and die anyway if u dont jack. Besides, not all sperm are fit to create life. The whole arguement is stupid.
Personally, I'd like the thank the majurity of you for being able to carry this discussion for 6 pages before it started to fall apart. I'm proud of you!
Comments
the arguement doesnt hold up at all. they are only potential lives
I think it is quite silly to be concerned about the death of a few one-celled organisms. Everytime you wash your hands, you're killing a few million life forms on your skin.
I agree.
Besides, if we allow every one of those million people to be born, the human population will exceed the world's carrying capacity. Right now, there are too many people on Earth - and that's only with 1.7 increasing rate. If everyone had whatever-million children... uugh.
Granted we cant help that, but we can help masturbation.
EG. It's like a few murders out there kill people, but it doesnt mean we should. (see the morality? <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif'><!--endemo--> )
But anyway, Epidemic: given the fact that your sperm productions just doesn't stop when you reach capacity, even if you say no to masturbation, you will be killing sperm. As I mentioned before, you will make enough sperm to spread your seed to EVERY WOMAN WHO EVER LIVED. If God designed this system, he never ment for us to keep every sperm we ever made because said sperm could produce a person. It's just impossible. And if killing sperm is a sin, I'm afraid all males are going to hell.
gheiyghes, lesbians, etc..
now people who can't get a lay.
that's right, if you can't get a lay for your life and you beat off, you are STILL a murderer!
this is the most love-hate relationship i have ever been in (the one with my own religion).
Edit: Inserted a new term for going to the bathroom, due to filter <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
Um actually no, thats water.
The human body uses an aerobic respiration process that, simply put, takes glucose and oxygen and turns them into different elements while producing energy for (the cell). One of these elements is water (the water we drink is used for plumping up the cells among other things.) Dead sperm wouldn't lose colorization and then what about semen (not the same as sperm) pee is liquid waste from the body. It is mostly water mixed with other unuseable elements.
its not like there were a lot of horny guys sitting at home all the time, idle hands, you know.
its a modern escape mechanism, and, like many activities, is only wrong when it interferes with more important things like living life.
Only that first degree was preconcieved, planned, and executed to the letter. Masturbation would more resemble manslaughter in terms of intent. You do it when the urge strikes you. I don't know of too many people who plan three days in advanced to masturbate, much the same as not too many people plan three days in advance to loose control of their car and plow over some pedestrians.
The fact is, even through holding back, you're going to end up killing sperm. Hell, if you want to take that road. If you've been in a relationship for a year or more, and marriage is a very real probability, and she is "in the mood," but you say no due to your belief, are you killing a person that might have been born that night? Those sperm are now dead, and your beliefs killed them. Don't take this as a personal attack, just an example of the MANY loopholes in ANY morale system.
Ultimately, it's up to use to decide which truths to accept and which to throw to the wind. And in a country of freedom, it's our right to do so. Which means I can never judge you for what you do or don't believe.
Thus, there is no way you can reasonably argue this one way or the other. Either you have gained hardline moral beliefs which will make you search for reasons for why this should be considered wrong, no matter what those reasons may be. Anything that will convince the heathens. Or, you have accepted it as part of being human and may or may not feel guilty about it, and either way you will not accept the idea of assigning value to the waste produced.
Or, you are neither and don't really want to argue one way or the other. Am I wrong?
And for the record, y'all need to calm down for a day, step back and then come back to this thread. it's getting way too...emotional.
If you can't discuss a topic like this without a straight face, be careful who you call a "kiddie."
This goes for everyone, I'm tired of the "I'm above your level" sentiment.
Now all us guys out there shouldn't kid ourselves for a minute that masterbation is purely a male perogative, because it emphatically is not. Women do it, and the general concensus would seem to be that roughly 60% of the female population engages in self-pleasuring. So in looking at women, what grounds exist for them not to do it?
They're not expelling millions of sperm, which some have classed as "murder" or "manslaughter". They're not doing anything harmful to themselves; indeed orgasms help relieve period cramps and pains. Why indeed would anyone object to women masterbating?
Everyone says it is wrong.
Most every male person does it, priests included.
Women are less compelled to masturbate.
It can be inferred from every primary source document relating to Jesus that he did not masturbate.
However, I do not base my ethical and integrity based questions on Church documents. (I would say moral, but morality implies a relationship with some sort of religion). The basic question for me is: Would more harm than good come from...? As far as masturbation is concerned, in today's age especially, that question is impossible to answer. The determining factor then becomes: Is it fun and does it or does it not threaten your life? It is damn fun, and it doesn't threaten my life. Hooray for fapping.
We're doomed to be sinners anyway, right? What is the big deal? Saying you can't maturbate is no different than saying you can't lie: while nobody might admit it, everybody does it some time or another (some less than others).
My girlfriend is disgusted at the idea of masturbation. She's repelled! YET! She tried it once! I think everyone has at least tried, whether they'll admit it or not.
Perhaps it is disgusting behavior, but we're not saints. We're human, right?
Chronos, we're talking about giving them a chance. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
500 Million sperm per ejaculation.
Presuming 3 Masturbations per week as average, thats 1500 Million sperm per week.
Multiply that by 52 to get one year, thats 78,000 Million Sperm per year.
Presuming 10 Years since I... Stumbled... on the technique, thats 780,000,000,000 sperm "Wasted" over my entire lifetime.
<b>78 BILLION SPERM</b>
Thats enough seed to create every human alive today, and every human that has ever lived, and every human that will come to be for a very very very long time.
Presume that at least 2.5 Billion of the ~3 Billion men on this planet masturbate at the same frequency, and you have so much sperm you dont know whats going on.
If I have three children, thats 3 / 78 Billion.
Three sperms get a chance, 78 Billion less three never have that chance. Ever.
Arguing that each and every sperm was "Meant" to create a life is fallacious as an argument simply because even in the course of natural procreation millions upon millions of sperm are wasted anyway.
And in any case, women also use a similar redundancy scheme. In each Ovary there are 40,000 Eggs. FORTY THOUSAND. If natural fertility lasts forty years, 12 * 40 = 480 Eggs are expelled over the womans lifetime. If three of these become children, then thats still 3 out of 40,000 eggs. 39,997 eggs COMPLETELY AND UTTERLY WASTED.
Sperm are practically manufactured to die. Ova are thrown in the proverbial bin every month regardless of female masturbation. Giving them a chance is pointless, since they practically HAVE no chance.
Personal attacks will NOT be tolerated. If you can't carry on a discussion of this nature without dissolving into throwing insults at people using the anonymity of the internet, then DO NOT POST.
</span>
and yes, females do masturbate. On occasion, during our long-times apart, I know for a fact that my girlfriend has done it.
Get over it guys, we are not 100% vital to female sexuality. only 50-60%
Personally, I'd like the thank the majurity of you for being able to carry this discussion for 6 pages before it started to fall apart. I'm proud of you!
<span style='color:red'>***Locked***</span>