Aliens Require More Teamwork Than Marines To Win
Forlorn
Join Date: 2002-11-01 Member: 2634Banned
Join Date: 2002-11-01 Member: 2634Banned
<div class="IPBDescription">On big games with equally skilled teams</div> After playing on 2.01 in pub games for a really long time now, I've come to the conclusion that large games require more teamwork for aliens than marines. By far.
Most marine teamwork involves staying together and shooting stuff...
In smaller games, such as 6v6 marines take more teamwork as they must know exactly where their teammates are and use them well in order to succeed.
However, in large marine games, even the rambo's run off in groups, and as long as they have good aim, they will prevail, often times resulting in great alien casulties, and greater reprocussions for the alien team overall.
Yes, I realize that this has been dubbed as "Slash and burn" tatic for the marine team, but I think I'm the first person to actually go out on a limb and just state it as a fact - <b>Marine team requires less teamwork to win than an alien team on large games.</b>
I don't know why, I don't know if it's right, I don't know if the devs wanted it this way, but I'm just stating what I think is the obvious.
To whomever reads this, reply if you agree/disagree, thoughts and comments and why you think that large games are unbalanced are always welcomed.
However, I know a few arguments are likely to pop up and so I'm going to attempt to shoot them down right here:
- Good skulk ambushes OWN marines!
Reply: And if the marine wins out over the skulks who ambushed them, it required more teamwork and tatics in how...? This would be one example of the aliens needing more teamwork in order to win.
- Fades! They are rambo central for the aliens!
Reply: They are one class, and they often come in big games very late, and they are in the place of a hive... although, depending on how good the marines are, the hive is either very hard or very easy to hold. But for the sake of argument, lets say these marines are good shots; then at this point in the game I would say let the aliens will NEED fades in order to setup a second hive, and is again, another example of aliens requiring more teamwork. Also, rambo fades aren't much of a threat against masses of good marines, yes, even good fades will get slaughtered by large masses of marines.
Also, I have reason to believe that marines are inherently overpowered in large games, due to the <a href='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/index.php?act=ST&f=1&t=41573&hl=' target='_blank'>arms lab imbalance</a>, but whether or not this is true cannot be confirmed. Only way to see for sure would be in a PT build, which I'm not really advocating. However, if you feel that there is less teamwork needed for marines than aliens due to the arms lab, feel free to state so in this thread and not feel like you are going off-topic.
Most marine teamwork involves staying together and shooting stuff...
In smaller games, such as 6v6 marines take more teamwork as they must know exactly where their teammates are and use them well in order to succeed.
However, in large marine games, even the rambo's run off in groups, and as long as they have good aim, they will prevail, often times resulting in great alien casulties, and greater reprocussions for the alien team overall.
Yes, I realize that this has been dubbed as "Slash and burn" tatic for the marine team, but I think I'm the first person to actually go out on a limb and just state it as a fact - <b>Marine team requires less teamwork to win than an alien team on large games.</b>
I don't know why, I don't know if it's right, I don't know if the devs wanted it this way, but I'm just stating what I think is the obvious.
To whomever reads this, reply if you agree/disagree, thoughts and comments and why you think that large games are unbalanced are always welcomed.
However, I know a few arguments are likely to pop up and so I'm going to attempt to shoot them down right here:
- Good skulk ambushes OWN marines!
Reply: And if the marine wins out over the skulks who ambushed them, it required more teamwork and tatics in how...? This would be one example of the aliens needing more teamwork in order to win.
- Fades! They are rambo central for the aliens!
Reply: They are one class, and they often come in big games very late, and they are in the place of a hive... although, depending on how good the marines are, the hive is either very hard or very easy to hold. But for the sake of argument, lets say these marines are good shots; then at this point in the game I would say let the aliens will NEED fades in order to setup a second hive, and is again, another example of aliens requiring more teamwork. Also, rambo fades aren't much of a threat against masses of good marines, yes, even good fades will get slaughtered by large masses of marines.
Also, I have reason to believe that marines are inherently overpowered in large games, due to the <a href='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/index.php?act=ST&f=1&t=41573&hl=' target='_blank'>arms lab imbalance</a>, but whether or not this is true cannot be confirmed. Only way to see for sure would be in a PT build, which I'm not really advocating. However, if you feel that there is less teamwork needed for marines than aliens due to the arms lab, feel free to state so in this thread and not feel like you are going off-topic.
Comments
And yes, aliens have a tougher time in big games.
And yes, aliens have a tougher time in big games. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
Agreed on both accounts, mmm...
I'm eating skittles right now, skittles > M&M Peanuts all the way
On the flip side of this Large games where aliens work together they will dominate. Gorges + otowers+ skulks with lots of healspray can wipe out an entire 8 man squad of marines. Seen it done time after time and while they push that spot then the rest of the map is theirs. Of course the better way to play is hit em where they aint but unfortunately some chokepoints have to be taken down.
There is a fine line between waiting too long for teamates to spawn and attack and hitting them before the phase gate finishes as well. I say this because I'm impatient and sometimes waiting for a group to spawn takes too long, and waiting for that little bit of teamwork can either help or hurt.
Anyways there's not much you can do besides limit team size on yoru servers. Although I do enjoy 9v9 it is a different game than 6v6.
You need competent marines, but overall you need a comm who can make the people on the field do what he's asking of them because they trust he's doing the right thing.
Aliens seems oftentimes too easy.
And yes, aliens have a tougher time in big games. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Agreed on both accounts, mmm...
I'm eating skittles right now, skittles > M&M Peanuts all the way <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
So let me get this straight, you eat sweets at 10am in the morning?
Gawd you must be hoooge <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif'><!--endemo--> (im guessing its 10ish saying its 3pm in the uk now?)
Anyway with the ns comment. true to an extent, but it depends on otrher factors such as the map etc / commander etc / skill of players (marines and aliens) etcetera.
However, traditional NS (6v6 for example) really requires greater teamwork on the part of the marines.
- Kar
Marines win big games due to spawn rate and the efficiency of the arms lab. But only if they attack. If they play like women and try to lock down hives and build turrets then I go hohoho and kill you all.
for marines, just mass HA and GL! GLGLGL! and stick together, with a few HMGs if you want. you've sorta won
Ok, one of the main disadvantages for marines is their MAGAZINE size. Yes, in small games, you have less LMG and Pistol clips ready-to-use. Remember how onos dies to a couple extreamly well placed LMG mags? how about 3 LMGs fireing at the onos with LvL3 weapons? Dead onos... To mass 3 marines in a 6v6 game like that, thats half your team, and 3/5ths your units on the field shooting at ONE guy.
Ok, lets look at the game imbalance in another light. Marine Highest tech costs much less then aliens when used in high quantities. The aliens have super high tech units that cost tons of res, yet can take down ALOT of things before worrying about their lives. The aliens have the so called "juggernaught" of NS... I find it oddly backwards when i see marines having equipment that works much better in masses then aliens. Shouldn't marines have this super high tech equipment? Shouldn't aliens be all about SWARMING the marines. Think aliens, think Starship troopers, think Blue Gender (for those adult swim fans <!--emo&;)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/wink.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='wink.gif'><!--endemo--> ). All of them have high tech marines against a horde of alien masses. few times in those movies did the guys there have to worry about ONE HUGE MUTHA... but millions of weaker aliens. And when they did find a big bad **** alien, they had a nuke, some crazy Exoskeleton armor, super effective weapondry to take it down. The only alien type movie that doesn't follow this is predater, but that is just a more advanced species.
Maybe i am just to big of a sci-fi Aliens VS the marines fan... i love all those movies.
Ohhhh BTW... anyone see the preview for Alien VS Predator? I wonder if they are going to have USCM marines in their to!?!?!???!?? oh the pwnage...
/me goes and plays AvP some more <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin.gif'><!--endemo-->
Pretty much... seeing if we can get anywhere with this.
And yes, aliens have a tougher time in big games. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Agreed on both accounts, mmm...
I'm eating skittles right now, skittles > M&M Peanuts all the way <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
So let me get this straight, you eat sweets at 10am in the morning?
Gawd you must be hoooge <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif'><!--endemo--> (im guessing its 10ish saying its 3pm in the uk now?)
Anyway with the ns comment. true to an extent, but it depends on otrher factors such as the map etc / commander etc / skill of players (marines and aliens) etcetera.
However, traditional NS (6v6 for example) really requires greater teamwork on the part of the marines.
- Kar <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
I'm eating skittles now cause some d000d was having a fund rasier for band. It was only a buck for an extra large size so I thought, "Why not?". And no, I'm not huge unless you consider 140 huge.
As for saying it depends on the map, true, most maps are designed for small squads of say, 3-5 marines. Put 9 marines in the same area and it's completely dominated by marines.
Perhaps different maps should be made for different sizes of games?
And skill of players don't matter, remember, pretend it's all equal.
oh yeah anyway i dont think that marines can survive for long ramboing by themselves agaisnt an equaly skilled alien team. even a (admitedly fairly stupid) HA train can b picked off by 1 or 2 onos working togther.
<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
WOW ISNT THAT AMAZING
www.kitkat.co.uk
And as for aliens requiring more teamplay....the commander is really like the organizer. If you have a good comm, you won't need as much teamplay as the aliens would to beat you.
And as for aliens requiring more teamplay....the commander is really like the organizer. If you have a good comm, you won't need as much teamplay as the aliens would to beat you. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
Yeah... a good comm is easily 50% of the marine team.
My real question is this:
Did the dev's want aliens to be more teamwork oriented on large games?
Do you like it setup this way?
can't touch this
I think we've all wondered: Why do we not have the "swarming critters" theme in NS? I guess it comes down to a lack of players: Every alien needs a player. While in pubs you could easily have it balanced so that on an eighteen player server, six players go on the marine team and twelve on the alien team, this would be hell for clanwars.
See, teamwork is two things; it's not just the skill doing doing the right thing for the team, following orders, co-ordinating with the others on your team etc, it's ALSO knowing what you're meant to do in a given situation. You can be the most willing self-sacrificing player in the world, but if you don't know what the best thing you can be doing is, it's pointless.
Now, as mentioned elsewhere in this thread, the wild card here is the comm. See, as long as the comm knows a tactic, no-one else on the team has to! He gives the team the correct equipment, send them the right way at the right time, and it all pulls together with ease, as long as the marines want to act as a team. Only one player actually needs to know a tactic to make it work.
But with aliens, it isn't like that, for obvious reasons. In order for a tactic to work, EVERYONE involved has to know what to do. They need to know what to be, where to position themselves, when to act and what to do. THEY need to know this; they can't just stand where the comm puts them and wait for the waypoint to go in firing whatever primary weapon they've been issued.
So, umm, yeah, that's my take on matters.
Oh, and Skittles are FAR superior to M&Ms.
Firstly Skittles Suck. Secondly Skittles Suck more. Thirdly Marine takes more team work but im tired right now and don't wanna get into it so just roll over and die.
The problem with that example is you haven't mentioned how the marine team played... if the marines had no teamwork, then it's kinda a moot point, sorry.
Besides, that is a fair level of teamwork; the lerks harrassed and distracted the marines, while the gorges built up and controlled the rest of the level. Seems a valid enough win to me.
Yeah dude.
Take a combat situation of 2-3 marines, and crank up the numbers to say 4-5 marines and the aliens get totally owned.
You know it, I know it, and so does anyone who's ever played on the HAMPTONS.
Seriously... not only is 1 marine pretty much stronger than one skulk in a 1v1 situation, but also you have to consider that marine firepower stacks, so in larger games with all of the rines aliens die REAL fast.