Alien evolution=marine progress?

humbaba · January 2002

<div class="IPBDescription">How is this going to be balanced</div>Ive been keeping my eye on this mod now for about two months. From what Ive read in the faqs and forums, the Aliens follow an evolutionary chain which rewards survival by allowing the individual to evolve to the next level. The Marines, while not evolving, do "evolve" technologically as the commander developes new technologies to aid the marines. The difference between these two, however might lead to a problem.

Moleculor · January 2002

And that problem would be....? (Finish the thought... finish the thought...)

*waits anxiously for answer*

humbaba · January 2002

From what I understand, the marines start with whatever upgrades (jetpacks, hypothetical alien translator, etc . . )have been researched, or at least, they dont cost much. Seems to me that evolving takes more effort, and that effort is totally lost when the alien dies. Therefore, while some "total advantage" is lost when a marine dies, he might drop his weapon and the team doesnt lose as much as when an Alien dies, which requires evolution up the chain again in order to reach the same point. Some hierarchy system should be put in on the marine side to keep the game balanced in the late game, where new recruits are heavy machine gunning down Bobs. Not pretty. I could be wrong though, not like im an expert on thism od or anything. I certainly havn't . . played . . it . . .

humbaba · January 2002

Wow! first post and already a reply, and from molecular no less. Heh heh.

Moleculor · January 2002

Feel free to put your fears at rest then, my friend. Marines start as nekkid as they can get. The commander has to drop stuff like jetpacks and things like that on them. Or at least that's what I've read. Flayra? MonsE? Anyone?

Of course. The forums reside within my skull.

humbaba · January 2002

So the "cost" of evolution is proportionate to the effort and money required to upgrade. On second thought, that will probobly be ironed out in playtesting, silly me. Should have thought a little more. I am shamed . . .

Moleculor · January 2002

Bah. I'm worried now myself.

Flayra, will dropping weapons cost something as well? Or will the commander have an unlimited supply once he's researched?

Oh, and.. <img src="http://66.78.33.98/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif" border="0" valign="absmiddle" alt=':)'>

Welcome to the mod humbaba. With that avatar, I doubt Bob will want to eat you. He'll probably want to be 'friends' or something.

humbaba · January 2002

Hee hee. . . Johnny john john has started controversy . . I am pleased and apologize for the ocnstant posting. Now i am off to throw my 2 sense into other forums. . . I will return.

Soon I will spread my thoughts to all of you .. . and the seeds will grow into . . THOUGHT TREES THAT WILL GROW OUT OF YOUR SKULL!! AND THEY WILL SPREAD MY THOUGHTS!!

humbaba · January 2002

P.S. thanx for the welcome. Im a loyal Bob fanatic, I dont plan to evolve, Im just gonna recon the whole game and develope bobbing to an artform. <img src="http://66.78.33.98/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif" border="0" valign="absmiddle" alt=':D'>

MonsieurEvil · January 2002

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td><b>Quote</b> (Moleculor @ Jan. 25 2002,22:16)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Feel free to put your fears at rest then, my friend. Marines start as nekkid as they can get. The commander has to drop stuff like jetpacks and things like that on them. Or at least that's what I've read. Flayra? MonsE? Anyone?

Of course. The forums reside within my skull.</td></tr></table><span id='postcolor'>
Well, as a Marine you will spawn with the tried and true weapons and some ammo; a light machine gun, a pistol, and a melee weapon of some sort. In order to get a shotgun, HMG, grenade launcher, etc. the commander will need to buy them on a per-unit basis. On the other hand, some types of research affect the whole team and are turned on right away, such as armor and ammo upgrades, jetpacks, 'I Heart Flayra' t-shirts, etc.

This way, your commander could be a <i>complete</i> bozo and you're still not left out to dry.

Merkaba · January 2002

Dropping weapons WILL cost.

Balancing issues aren't fore-front on our minds at the moment, because we're not really at a stage where we can test to see if it one method works better than another. Once we start full playtesting, THEN we'll look into the balance of the teams and things, and this will be refined even more by extensive BETA 1 playtesting <img src="http://66.78.33.98/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif" border="0" valign="absmiddle" alt=':)'> *ahem!*

But seeing as there are so many different ways with which the game can be balanced, it's not really something that concerns me personally.

humbaba · January 2002

Thanks for easing my fears. Now , you just e-mail me about that beta test . . heh . . . heh. I know you wont . . but I cant say I dind't try, eh?

the_stalker · January 2002

marines rock! aliens look cool! (in a grose scary chilling and well cool way) :D

Huan · January 2002

On the aliens side, this is a bit like CS, if you get AWP and survive a couple of rounds when you die you can surely afford another AWP for the next round. Same here, if you get to lvl5 and die you have gathered a good bunch of points which guarantees a good start for the next "round" (respawn <img src="http://66.78.33.98/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/tounge.gif" border="0" valign="absmiddle" alt=':p'>)

I'm still curious on how the respawning system works, if respawning costs money then respawn-raping will be amazingly powerfull, the main balance in FPS is that spawn raping gives the raper 1 point but a inverse spawn (when the attacker gets hurt progresively after some respawns) gives the raped 1 point plus the whole control of the map which is way more important that this single point (ie. the raper has much to loose and very few to win in respawn raping).

Flayra · January 2002

Actually, the aliens will have some communal upgrades to address this problem, though I can't go into detail on them yet. <img src="http://66.78.33.98/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif" border="0" valign="absmiddle" alt=':)'>

Huan, I followed your last argument up until the last bit. When someone that keeps getting respawn-killed finally kills the person doing it, how does he get control of the map? Yes, the person respawns a relatively far distance away, but at that point both players will be essentially at their spawns.

Huan · January 2002

Well, inverse respawns only exist in those games where the respawned has some advantages (ie. q3). Usually, respawning near an enemy is a bad thing cause you are unequiped, but here a 10 health with 200 armor RL-equiped is weaker that a 130 health machinegun-equiped respawn which changes the whole thing. The lucky guy is the spawned cause he gets an easy kill plus a weapon plus control of the map (ie. the posibility to spawn-rape the other or control the items, etc...).

Lets see, youve got weapon and armor and decide to drop item-picking on a second plane and focus on spawn-raping, you hunt him once (1 frag) and he does a bit of damage to you, but you keep on hunting him a couple of times more so:

1- You've been erosioned by his low-damage weapon repeatedly.
2- His health is upped to 130 everytime he dies while yours is dropping.
3- You havent been controling the items but the enemy.

And thats when he gets an inverse spawn, he can respawn next to a armor and/or a weapon or maybe due to the erosion the attacker has, the respawned gets an easy kill to a low healthed and well equiped guy.

Besides, there is a spawn delay (1700ms in q3, more in NS i belive as you have to "buy" your respawn) which means i have this time to get a good position and/or getting more items and/or spawn rape you <img src="http://66.78.33.98/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif" border="0" valign="absmiddle" alt=':)'>

Then you have changed map control for 3 frags, not a good deal imo <img src="http://66.78.33.98/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif" border="0" valign="absmiddle" alt=':)'>

Huan · January 2002

For example, on some maps (like q3dm13 or q3tourney2) its better to let the other guy alive with low health, thus making him be allways hiding and searching for health (ie. not annoying you) than killing him because you prefer map control to a frag.

Same for Q3F in 2stag2 or other maps, there was a 7 sec delay to the respawn after a /kill and sometimes when there was an enemy recon hurt/conc'ed/blinded you prefered not to kill him cause a respawn would give him full health and nothing good for you <img src="http://66.78.33.98/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif" border="0" valign="absmiddle" alt=':D'>

In fact i was a full time recon so i hated SO MUCH these things... <img src="http://66.78.33.98/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif" border="0" valign="absmiddle" alt=':)'>

Flayra · January 2002

Interesting stuff. I think a lot of this stuff doesn't apply so much to NS though, as it's suited for 1v1 DM play, not team vs. team strategy. <img src="http://66.78.33.98/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif" border="0" valign="absmiddle" alt=':)'> For instance, there are basically no powerups for aliens (weapons, armor) and there are definitely no respawnable items anywhere.

You where full-time recon for TDM? How could you give recon info back, surely not by typing? Binds?

Huan · January 2002

First, i'm mostly a TDM player (TDM strategist <img src="http://66.78.33.98/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/tounge.gif" border="0" valign="absmiddle" alt=':p'>), respawn rapings exists in TDM too (so it does in CTF but named as base overruning) they are just more simple in 1v1 thats why i told it this way. Anyway, a tactic based on having the team raping and hunting frags is not sustainable in any way on most games (its only possible in QW and only in some maps; dm2, dm4, dm6...) for more than a very few minutes (still, the amount of frags you do could guarantee you the win if you play smart afterwards).

-

Sure there are no respawnable items in NS but there are favourable positions that both teams want and probably these are incompatible with respawn raping.

-

I was a full-time recon on Q3F <img src="http://66.78.33.98/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif" border="0" valign="absmiddle" alt=':)'>, the recon is a class and might be meant to explore and inform but in fact it was used as a human bullet to cap the flag and return. usually the information-givers were spies (they can disguise as the other team's color) or other recons when dead and yes everything was in binds, there were # variables like #L returns where you are and #D where you died (when droped flag) and also information about defense (sentry guns placement, what classes are defending (heavier, lighter...) what ways were weaker...)

In TDM information is gathered differently, there are no classes and the amount of info you give depends on how good you are with binds. U usually command the team's movement trough the map when in game and when not playing I coach them (have u seen OSP's coaching system?)

Relic25 · January 2002

I may have completely misundestood Huan's point, but as I interpreted it, the problem he describes shouldn't be a factor in NS games (under the current scenario that is). There's really no reason why anyone would hang around spawn points just to kill freshly re-spawned players as the objective is to take out the hive (where the aliens spawn), which cuts off the ability of the aliens to spawn there, or if you are an alien player, to take out the commander station, so that reinforcements can't be called in. NS isn't based around scores for kills, so spawn camping really doesn't accomplish anything for the player or either team.

Like I said, I may have completely misunderstood the point, so take this with a grain of salt.

Huan · January 2002

Well, in fact respawn raping gives you a lot of money and forces them to re-respawn (so they lose money on it). Wouldn't it be much more profitable for marines to TAKE CONTROL over a hive by easily killing the respawneds than killing the hive itself? (in fact, the hive is providing them money, why destroy it?) I might have missed the whole point but there is no need to destroy a hive if you can use it for your own purpouses, isnt it?

Besides, NS <b>IS</b> based on money for kills <img src="http://66.78.33.98/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif" border="0" valign="absmiddle" alt=':D'> so spawn camping gives you money and forces them to waste theirs.

I havent played NS and i havent seen its gameplay but I'm just trying to see how the game will be interpreted by clans and how a prepared strategy can ruin (or exalt&#33<img src="http://66.78.33.98/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif" border="0" valign="absmiddle" alt=';)'> what the developers had planned <img src="http://66.78.33.98/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif" border="0" valign="absmiddle" alt=':D'> (check the Especulations about clan play post)

MonsieurEvil · January 2002

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td><b>Quote</b> (Huan @ Jan. 26 2002,14:18)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Well, in fact respawn raping gives you a lot of money and forces them to re-respawn (so they lose money on it). Wouldn't it be much more profitable for marines to TAKE CONTROL over a hive by easily killing the respawneds than killing the hive itself? (in fact, the hive is providing them money, why destroy it?) I might have missed the whole point but there is no need to destroy a hive if you can use it for your own purpouses, isnt it?

Besides, NS <b>IS</b> based on money for kills <img src="http://66.78.33.98/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif" border="0" valign="absmiddle" alt=':D'> so spawn camping gives you money and forces them to waste theirs.

I havent played NS and i havent seen its gameplay but I'm just trying to see how the game will be interpreted by clans and how a prepared strategy can ruin (or exalt&#33<img src="http://66.78.33.98/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif" border="0" valign="absmiddle" alt=';)'> what the developers had planned <img src="http://66.78.33.98/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif" border="0" valign="absmiddle" alt=':D'> (check the Especulations about clan play post)</td></tr></table><span id='postcolor'>
I think you got a bit lost here, Huan. Only the aliens can profit from a functioning hive - the Marines should destroy them as soon as possible.

NS is <b>not</b> based on money for kills; the alien players get some bonuses for fragging, but if you never kill anything, you will still get RP's from hives. They are your primary source. The marines the majority of their points from Resource structures.

Huan · January 2002

I missed the point then <img src="http://66.78.33.98/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif" border="0" valign="absmiddle" alt=':)'>

Moleculor · January 2002

No I think Huan -has- a point actually..

Marines get RP for killing aliens, right?

Marines camp in the Hive room, and pick off Bobs as they spawn. With each time they kill a Bob, they get more RP. With each respawn the aliens are forced to use up part of their personal RP. Ergo, the Marines RP will just keep going up and up, while the Aliens keep losing RP. And the game halts at a standstill.

the_stalker · January 2002

id go with aliens since there bigger <img src="http://66.78.33.98/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif" border="0" valign="absmiddle" alt=':D'>

neag · January 2002

This can be fixed whit the ability to chose which hive to spawn from. May be you could look from the hive model between respawning.

Huan · January 2002

Why fixed? Its not a bug its a feature <img src="http://66.78.33.98/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif" border="0" valign="absmiddle" alt=':D'>

If it happens to be worth it has to be BALANCED (just like skiing in tribes and then how it changed in tribes2).

Scythe · January 2002

Here is a possibility: If an alien evolves a certan ability/upgrade in a prevous life, it is quicker/cheaper to evolve into next time. The effect is cumulative, meaning that people with a favourate class would be able to evolve to that class quicker. For example, when the game starts I probably would run around as a bob racking up a few RPs untill I get enough to evolve into level 3 (Flier). I frag (Aliens ARE DM oriented remember) a few marines and then I die. Next time I spawn, it will be cheaper and/or faster to evolve back into my favourite class and to evolve my favourate abilities. This might even it out for the aliens.

--Scythe--
<a href="mailto:the_only_scythe@yahoo.co.uk">the_only_scythe@yahoo.co.uk</a>

MonsieurEvil · January 2002

There are also multiple hives, so you have a 1 in <i>x</i> chance of respawning in a different hive area. The Marines would have to be spread pretty thin to cover them all, even if they have 16 players.

Lotis · January 2002

Nows thats just what I was gona say, if you have a bunch of marines killing aliens at a hive whats to stop the aliens from spawning at other hives and flanking the marines totally.

If the aliens have one hive and its not possible to do this than its probably going to be early in the game and as the weapons the marines start with early on wont be enough to kill respawing aliens forever, eventually the alines will regain their ground.

Moleculor · January 2002

Nah, if there is only one hive, and they're doing this, and they keep killing aliens, they'll have an -unlimited- supply of ammo, as each death gives them more RP for buying ammo.

Alien evolution=marine progress?

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