Long, Cramped Corridor Stalemates (balance Issue)

Drewbar99 · October 2003

the only problem is, by the time they get the 2nd Hive, <img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/marine.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='marine.gif'> could of alreay taking over all the map by that time, either way, u r screwed

SlayerOfSkulks · October 2003

</span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>"But I don't think that's an accurate counter-point to what he said."

Counter point? No, its a *comparison*. If you have ZERO tech and the enemy have EVERYTHING, you SHOULD NOT WIN NO MATTER WHAT. No tactic, no strategy on this earth will save you.</td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'>
Semantics. And my point is, that wasn't the situation... the kharaa DIDN'T have zero tech, both sides were teched up.

</span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>If you made a thread saying "rines had two hives, full tech, we had skulks and noone dropped chambers at all, this game is unbalanced" people would laugh at you because its not a balance issue, but crappy play.</td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'>
Correct. And also, nothing to do with this topic.

</span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>Putting yourself in a losing position is bad. Half the game is AVOIDING the losing position. Once you're in a losing position, you're screwed. And thats the way it is.</td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'>
Ah yes, holding 90% of the map, that famous losing position... :/

</span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>So in effect you've misinterpreted or misunderstood the entire content of my post.</td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'>
Right back atcha.

</span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>On your "aliens had all the cards" note, I have to say that NO, aliens did NOT hold all the cards because EXPERIENCE and TEAMPLAY was lacking. Aliens PERMITTED rines to dig in at a good location, and thusly put themselves into a losing position. Unbalanced? No.</td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'>
It could also be argued that, if the marines were so superior with such great teamplay, they would never have been cornered as they were, having to hope for a lucky break to get free. They got lucky thanks to a clever comm move; this was NOT an example of shining teamplay. THe alien's weren't in a losing position, they were in a WINNING position, with no simple way to finish (as the marines have in the equivalent situation.) Unbalanced? Yes, because in this situation the aliens required oodles of teamwork and skill to achieve what, in the equivalent, the marines could do with one siege cannon.

</span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>In a game where aliens have decided never to upgrade, and just skulk rush, then they effectively give themselves no way to win. Thats not imbalance, its poor play.

Poor play has no place in determining game balance.
</td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'>
Once again, entirely correct, and nothing to do with the topic at hand.

</span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>If you are not on the clock for the entire duration of the game, then you DESERVE to lose for being so slack. Thats how the game works.</td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'>
That would be all very well, IF the marines had maintained a steady decent performance throughout and exploited alien mistakes... but they didn't. They were contained and controlled, and made a last-ditch attempt to hold themselves somewhere. and then turtled until they got a lucky break. This is not a master team beating a loads of nubes. Kudos to the comm because he DID make a really great move by setting up these so effectively... but that says NOTHING for the performance of the rest of the team or the earlier choices of the comm, when they wound up in that situation in the first place.

</span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>Redroom is all but impenetrable once marines lame it up. So do you:

A) Claim the game is unbalanced because you let rines lame up a room you know to be impossible to break

B) Kill the lone JP rine and put up some OC to stop them trying again.</td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'>
Am I the only one who got the point that at that point, they really didn't CARE about laming up the entire rest of the level? He wasn't playing so much to win at all costs as to have fun. You remember that stuff, fun? Go back and read his original post, will you... he covers why they didn't do this. (Long and short, because it would make just make a long stalemate into a longer stalemate.)

stick100 · October 2003

</span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Necrosis @ Oct 8 2003, 06:06 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> (In response to Red room comment)

It would have helped you not lose. Which is the next best thing.  </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> 
I respectfully disagree. Once you wait for 10-15 minutes with no progress I just want the game over. I don't care if I win or lose, I just want to get on with a new game at that point.

I put this over in S&I but I'll say it again.

How about some alien siege (hear me out for a second).

No new abilities, no new buildings.

Requires 2 hives and a gorge and a skulk.

1 Skulk must parasite a building.

Then 1 gorge can shoot a BB and it will semi home into the parasited building. The amount of homing would be dependent on play tested balance.

Once 1 BB hits then the building loses its parasite, and must be reparasited if the gorge wants to use another homing BB.

This means that we have a use for parasiting buildings.

Requires LOS for the skulk at least and possibly for the gorge also. (Therefore highly counterable, and slow).

Geminosity · October 2003

sounds lots like an idea that cropped up in <a href='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/index.php?act=ST&f=5&t=48605&hl=alien+siege' target='_blank'>this</a> thread =3

PseudoKnight · October 2003

I don't know if anyone pointed this out yet even though I read most of this thread, but in 1.0x that spot was the most common strategy for the marines. That exact spot and processing on ns_hera were the most unbalanced relocation spots in the game. Imagine the marines having one more node and kharaa being gestation level hive dependent.( ie. No Onos) And you're complaining now? You're late. <img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/wink.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='wink.gif'>

im_lost · October 2003

</span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (PseudoKnight @ Oct 8 2003, 08:40 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> I don't know if anyone pointed this out yet even though I read most of this thread, but in 1.0x that spot was the most common strategy for the marines. That exact spot and processing on ns_hera were the most unbalanced relocation spots in the game. Imagine the marines having one more node and kharaa being gestation level hive dependent.( ie. No Onos) And you're complaining now? You're late. <img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/wink.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='wink.gif'>  </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> 
Fades used to have acid rocket at one hive and aliens got fades at 2 hives. This made them much more effective at breaking down a 2-hive lockdown, which is why in 1.04 at 2 hives there would be one or 2 gorges, a lerk for umbra, and practically everyone else went fade. The powerful distance weapon made turtling much harder for marines.

stick100 · October 2003

</span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (i'm lost @ Oct 8 2003, 08:57 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> Fades used to have acid rocket at one hive and aliens got fades at 2 hives.  </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> 
And umbra blocked 6 out of 7 bullets and lasted much longer.

Couple fades in umbra + 1 lerk for umbra + 1 gorge for hs was pretty much unstopable.

Only counter was gernades, but you could ussually just kill the guy.

wascally_wabbit · October 2003

Cloaked skulks <img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif'> All I have to say on the issue.

<img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/skulk.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='skulk.gif'> <img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/skulk.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='skulk.gif'>

Seph_Kimara · October 2003

observatory negates cloaking. What good would shredded skulks do?

DrSuredeath · October 2003

Ever heard the phrase "simple is the best"?

My team once have had that kind of stalemate. They got the last hive, we had everything else. We couldn't get into their base to deal damages because of hmg and GL. Fade, Onos and umbra machines got butchered.

What saved the day?

A lot of very fast and tough skulks jumping everywhere. So fast and so coordinated that their last RT went down in a flash and it went down hill from there.

Forlorn · October 2003

</span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Dr.Suredeath @ Oct 9 2003, 08:38 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> Ever heard the phrase "simple is the best"?

My team once have had that kind of stalemate. They got the last hive, we had everything else. We couldn't get into their base to deal damages because of hmg and GL. Fade, Onos and umbra machines got butchered.

What saved the day?

A lot of very fast and tough skulks jumping everywhere. So fast and so coordinated that their last RT went down in a flash and it went down hill from there.  </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> 
With 3 hives?

Mass xenocide... good lord, they will be begging for their lives.

Although the best tatic is mass gorge webs and one onos. This is virtually unstoppable.

Necrosis · October 2003

"I have seen many times on these boards people like you replying to complaints like these in the general form of

"You shouldn't have let them put up defenses in the first place".

Do you realize just how absurd this sounds?"

If you put your hand into a fire and then whine about how you can't undo the 3rd degree burns covering it, then you sir are a smacktard. If marines relocate ANYWHERE ON THE MAP your objective is to STOP it happening if its in an inconvenient location. While I agree that "don't let them do it" is absurd when talking ABOUT MARINE SPAWN FROM THE START, I don't see how its absurd when we're talking about a RELOCATION.

Even if you can't destroy their relocation, its easer to nip it in the bud than to let it build up. The actual subject of the thread is "how the hell do I compensate for our slackness in letting the rines relocate to a pretty tough hiding spot". The BEST solution is not to let them do anything that you won't be able to counter at a later date.

"So stop complaining about how no action was taken earlier,"

No, actually, I'll keep pushing the point that NO ACTION WAS TAKEN, since this is WHY the situation happened. If someone tells me that they burnt their hand in a fire, I'd ask them how they got their hand in the position. If they then tell me that they deliberately put their hand into that fire, then to me thats their own silly fault. Whats the solution to a burnt hand? Months of grafts, therapy, and painkillers. Or not putting your hand in a fire in the first place. Mm, now, which of these is easier?

Drewbar, read the thread, and then comment. They had second hive already.

Slayer -

Not semantics, its word for word what I said. Its a comparison, and a legit ones. Kharaa put themselves in a dumb position then expect some magic recovery.

The other comparison about the rines holding the map is correct AND relevant - its complaining about a LOSING SITUATION. What do you tell someone who claims being beaten is unbalanced?

Complaining about imbalance because the team played BADLY is absolutely pointless.

"Ah yes, holding 90% of the map, that famous losing position... :/"

If you'd read the thread, you'll note the aliens permitted the rines to relocate to a very defensible position next to a hive. THAT is a losing position, and if you can't see that then you're just trolling.

If you're just trolling, then YES I have misunderstood your post - I read it to be a misguided attempt at a reply, not troll food.

"It could also be argued that, if the marines were so superior with such great teamplay, they would never have been cornered as they were, having to hope for a lucky break to get free. They got lucky thanks to a clever comm move; this was NOT an example of shining teamplay"

No, it could NOT be argued that way because we have no idea what was going on in the marine camp, if rines changed comms, or whatever. Cornered? Falling back to a defensive position and TECHING UP while waiting to break out is the ONLY counter when the enemy have the virtually the entire map and all the res. Unless you can suggest some other productive counter?

As for "shining teamplay", it worked, rines defended base as a team, and expanded to red room successfully. Sounds to me like well organised teamplay with rines following orders. You have a different definition?

Poor play being unrelated to imbalance IS the core of this thread. Poor alien play in letting rines set up on a hive's doorstep, and then the subsequent cry of "imbalance" that the marines should be able to relocate effectively.

"That would be all very well, IF the marines had maintained a steady decent performance throughout and exploited alien mistakes... but they didn't"

You have read the thread, yes? Marines relocating and defending heavily on the doorstep of a hive, expanding to an undefended redroom (arguably one of the most decisive rooms on the map) - this sounds nothing like exploiting alien mistakes? Don't make me laugh.

Aliens dropped the ball by allowing the relocation to happen, and compounded on it by leaving the key areas of the map UNDEFENDED - effectively inviting marines to win.

"He wasn't playing so much to win at all costs as to have fun"

Right, so precisely what does substandard "fun" play have to do with "omgzor rines are unbalanced, aliens need a massive radius no LOS siege weapon to destroy obvious relocations that we just couldn't be bothered trying to prevent". Do tell.

Stick -

Why, WHY is an alien siege needed to rob marines of a deserved win? So what happens when rines lock down one hive and are moving to siege second? The rines thrive on making defensible positions and manning them. Allowing parasite to "tag" buildings means gorges can sit at a safe distance surrounded by OC and DC spamming homing bile. Tricky to counter, especially if the gorge is hiding in a hard to reach place since he no longer needs LOS. More importantly, what if the bulk of the alien team go gorge at second hive, hide near marine spawn and homing bile the IPs? GG unbalanced weapon suggestion. And totally off topic to this thread.

At least prevention is a real and valid suggestion, as opposed to encouraging the idea of imbalance and saying that the only solution is an unbalancing weapon upgrade....

BTW, slayer, you might want to reread the several posts I made concerning a solution other than prevention. That IS if you're intending to conduct an intelligent conversation on the matter.

Julien · October 2003

Before this thread devolves into a flamefest and gets locked, here's my two cents:

Stalemates don't happen all that often. It's not a balance problem, regardless of whether there is a lack of alien base-clearing ability at two hives. The type of stalemates in this thread occur when marines have been lucky/smart enough to relocate in/near a hive and yet dumb/unfortunate enough to have been trapped there. The res count is usually 1 vs 9 at this point.

Prevention is better than cure. That's why stalemates like this -usually- don't happen.

If they have already occured, then as someone said, both teams are roughly on equivalent tech (and we assume on equivalent skill.) The winning factor is then psychology and stamina.

The first team that gives up... Loses. Simple as that.

If aliens stop finding it fun to chip away and decrease marine res until they can't defend no more, and thus ease up on attacks or give up on teamwork...
...while marines are fighting to the death and struggling to get out, the team working together is bound to win eventually.

I've seen only two major stalemates like this before. One was almost in the same situation, except we as marines were holed up in cargo hive itself and grenade spam was working. Me being a newbie at the time, this was a new situation for me and I followed the comm's orders to hold e and shoot 'nades at the exit and vent like there was no tomorrow. The rest of the 'rines held out too. Sheer stamina for two hours eventually bored the alien team to give up and F4. Now I doubt I'll be bothered to try this again after having experienced it once. It'll be more fun to start a new game. But the point remains about sheer endurance.

Since it isn't strategically correct for a res-poor team to manage a win like this, the nade spam exploit was fixed. (Game balance, remember?) Even more than before, the alien team now has the ability to just whittle away at the marines until they give up or their base is in pieces. <b>As long as the aliens don't get bored of it and give up themselves. </b>

H20 Server. 3 hour game. Stalemate in Tram Tunnel. Joined Marines one hour into the game, almost never saw the outside of Tram Tunnel. Team probably killed 50 Onos and replaced the one rt over and over. When aliens started giving up, we got into the chamber beyond the rt for a while. When more new players joined, and bolstered alien forces, we got pushed back and eventually destroyed. Again, stamina. New players on aliens = wanting to kill a lot of marines in an already winning situation = morale boost = eventual dead marine base. And again, new players joining marines and fighting back probably contributed to the stalemate because of not giving up. But strategically, aliens were in better position, and thus, won. Eventually. Ergo, Game Not Imbalanced.

stick100 · October 2003

</span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Necrosis @ Oct 9 2003, 10:39 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> Stick -

Allowing parasite to "tag" buildings means gorges can sit at a safe distance surrounded by OC and DC spamming homing bile. Tricky to counter, especially if the gorge is hiding in a hard to reach place since he no longer needs LOS.  </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> 
Ah, but I wanted every single BB that hit a struct to remove all parasites on buildings. Hence requiring a NEW parasite.

This means that it would be very slow and would require a skulk to keep getting LOS.

Could be stopped by killing skulk (in LOS at times).

Killing gorge (who possiably would need LOS depending on how it play tested).

Blocking the parasites with body (would require some healing eventually).

Blocking slow BB's with body.

Having 1 guy with a welder nearby as it would be very very slow to take down a building. (1 BB in the air for every parasite hit).

Necrosis · October 2003

"This means that it would be very slow and would require a skulk to keep getting LOS"

No, sadly it'd be rather easy and quick, requiring either leaping skulk quickswitching to para or a shoot and run regen or cara skulk. Not much of a downside, and nightmarish in 6v6 games or above where you could para anything indefinitely.

stick100 · October 2003

</span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Necrosis @ Oct 9 2003, 11:34 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> No, sadly it'd be rather easy and quick, requiring either leaping skulk quickswitching to para or a shoot and run regen or cara skulk.  </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> 
Well maybe your right. I really don't know and don't think we would know until it would be pted.

If it was too easy to seige like this then you could just make it so that having a para on a stuct would allow the gorge to shoot a straight line BB like the old beta BBs at the parasited stuct 1 time.

Then after the struct was BB it would have to be reparasited.

In this case we would now have both the gorge and the skulk required to maintain LOS with target.

And if even that was too strong then we could make it so that all BB's fired under this new staight line BB's rule did 1/2 damage and did no splash damage at all and maybe made a different noise.

I have no clue how weak or strong this could be in all situations, I just think that it MIGHT make some sense as a reasonable alternative to the unkillable marine base.

As alot of you know this only matters in non-tourny mode, because in tourny mode you can just cap all the res and contain and win at 35 minutes.

Maybe you could make this new BB rule only work in non-tourny mode as a stalemate breaker.

And maybe it would only activate after 35 minutes of the game has progessed.

Now that I have listed some possible weaker interpretations I would hope that you could see that it would not have to be overpowering or game changing.

I personally would like to see BB act kinda like seige and not just a short range building killer.

Necrosis · October 2003

You're also dragging this thread further off topic by contributing fanciful ideas that belong in the S&I forum and NOT in a thread asking for CURRENT SOLUTIONS.

SuperMunchkin · October 2003

Actually, I fail to see how letting the marines live is a "losing situation." Your comparison, Necro, is faultered because it doesn't matter which situation you're in, the aliens are on the losing end.

IE:
The marines are teched up and own 90%+ of the map: Marines win.
The aliens are teched up and own 90%+ of the map: Marines win.
See where the comparison lacks balance? I'm sorry, but it DOES NOT take a skilled team to sit behind turrets and fire a HMG and grenade spam. Or even weld things. I will say that taking a jetpack out into hostile territory takes a deal of skill, or lots of luck. But in either luck or skill, the jetpacker is not being discussed. The stalemate issue of holed up marines is being discussed. After all, if the jetpacker had died because of a built up RR, the game would have continued on in the same manner- a stalemate.

Yes prevention IS a good thing, but marine structures can be built FAST, especially with multiple marines. In a 6v6 situation as this was, you can't possibly be everywhere at once- and this hallway isn't the only place that could be lamed up. What about generator room? Two doorways, one that requires an elevator to be lowered (dead give away something is coming). And if we split the alien team to defend key areas and all the marines go to ONE key area- the aliens will lose the first fight (assuming equal skill among players). And it's reasonable to assume ALL the marines will go to one place, because that's the whole point of a relocation. And an expansion is much the same.

By the time the other half of the alien team arrives the marines will have been able to build a few things.
If this is a relocation, turrets.
If it's an expansion, phase gate for immediate reinforcement. Where as aliens must run/fly across the map.

The marines will be able to defend a direct assult in either location. Why? Because their team can be there instantly, and already has/will soon have turret support. If you wait for your team to respawn first, this gives the marines MORE time for structures making preventive measures moot. And this becomes an already "dug-in" situation.

The aliens can try dropping their own turrets in there, but by even the short time it takes to build them is not enough to keep the gorge/chamber from lmg fire coming from a full marine team.

To prevent marines from turtling anywhere but their marine start, aliens must know:
1) Where they will be going
2) When will they be going
3) Weapons they have

How do you find out these things?
1) If there is a SINGLE key point on the map, that's it. If there's more than one, you will have to spot them going there, which splits up your team, putting you at a higher risk of death. On an even playing field, the marines take it.

2) Again, you must spot them going. If it's early game, this isn't as big a deal. If it's mid game- you're already building the rest of the map for resources/defense. If the whole marine team suddenly decides to relocate... not everyone is going to be in a position to get there before the marines, especially gorges. We all know that half the team should at least gorge a res tower at some point.

3) If the commander drops an armory at marine start and hands out a few shotties before a relocation, that makes prevention a great deal more difficult. Or if it's mid-game, shotties are more viable, but it's also possible they went straight for HMG's and then abandoned their base after a relocation- using the recycled res to start upgrades. On an even playing field, shotguns will own the unupgraded skulks. Indeed that's what they will be in the first minute of the game.

The only early counter that isn't skill dependent is lerk gas. But, the lerk will need line of sight, and in Generator Room they are opening themselves to attack. In the hallway of cargo it would be much more effective in my opinion, but in the example above, they already had HA.

Most likely the lerks won't have any upgrades on the early relocation. The gas doesn't work on the buildings, so the marines will likely be able to respawn/phase in before an real damage is done (by skulks or spikes). The TF electrification upgrade is instantaneous last I checked, and that will keep that going early game with minor welder support.

If marines just sit there for the rest of the game they can prolong upgrades in favor of grenade spam to keep the oncoming fades back. Any that blink through will need to deal with a shotgun or two. Even with carapace, this isn't the safest. Remember we're talking even skill here! So the ability of the fade to blink to and fro without dying must in some way match the shotgunners ability to aim. The odds are the fade will die due to turrets and electrified TF/RT nearby. Because these things are simply there, and require no one to opperate giving the marines the upper hand.

The ONLY thing that makes a marine relocation faulty is if it's not within seige distance of a hive. If they can do that, than they have nothing to worry about. With three hives to protect, the aliens can't, on an even playing field, protect all of these locations on a beginning game relocation rush. They must first know which one they're going to.

So, I DO in fact see an imbalance where skill is at an even level (which is the only way to be sure of an imbalance). It lies in the fact that it's EASY to create and sustain a turtled marine base. Which, as you've said necro, is a "winning strategy." The only stipulation required to hold this base is to have a hive within seige range, thus preventing ranged and explosive attacks.

Necrosis · October 2003

"Actually, I fail to see how letting the marines live is a "losing situation.""

Letting the marines dig into a defensive position IS a losing position. Marine spawn simply does not count becuase, like every alien hive, it is seemingly designed to accomodate the enemy - shortening endgames involving spawn. By letting rines dig into redroom, or engine room vents, or any other hard nut bolt hole on any map, is shooting yourself in the foot.

"The marines are teched up and own 90%+ of the map: Marines win.
The aliens are teched up and own 90%+ of the map: Marines win."

Competent play SHOULD beat technology. Thats why its a strategy mod, not "blast everything for teh win". Skulks can kill HA, vanilla rines can kill Onos. Tech is irrelevant. In this thread, rines ended up in a defensive hole and HELD OUT LONG ENOUGH TO BREAK OUT. We're not talking about a stalemate where both sides are deadlocked despite many attempts - we're talking about a deadlock with a poor alien team who could NOT crack the superior marine strategy. Reflected in the fact then rines DID break out and immediately moved to another easily defensible location. Without knowing the marine commander or team, the only conclusion is that the marine team was of a higher standard in the long run (I suspect the comm was replaced, tbh).

"I'm sorry, but it DOES NOT take a skilled team to sit behind turrets and fire a HMG and grenade spam. Or even weld things."

It takes startling good luck or sheer SKILL to set up a base on a hive doorstep that fully teched aliens can't break. Thats assuming a competent alien team. This wasn't a stalemate - it was aliens being outmatched by a better team that played its hand well.

"After all, if the jetpacker had died because of a built up RR, the game would have continued on in the same manner- a stalemate."

Your theory. They could have JP rushed the RTs and then went for a rapid expansion while the aliens diverted. Or one of a hundred other possibilities.

"and this hallway isn't the only place that could be lamed up. What about generator room? Two doorways, one that requires an elevator to be lowered (dead give away something is coming). And if we split the alien team to defend key areas and all the marines go to ONE key area- the aliens will lose the first fight (assuming equal skill among players). And it's reasonable to assume ALL the marines will go to one place, because that's the whole point of a relocation. And an expansion is much the same."

Anywhere can be lamed up. Gen's a good tough choice but sadly too far from any hive for an effective lock down - the hives would be liberated and cara xeno skulk bombs would empty gen. I've done it in the past, so I speak from experience here. If rines have locked down a hive AND gen well then its certainly not a stalemate, just a grapple for the upper hand. A grapple is not a stalemate.

"To prevent marines from turtling anywhere but their marine start, aliens must know:
1) Where they will be going
2) When will they be going
3) Weapons they have"

COMPETENT players know that if its too darned quiet, the marines are up to something, and can then scout the map. That'll tell you where. WHEN is discovered by waiting. Weapons they have? If you've spotted the relocation, or a train of rines, and TELL THE TEAM, the team response will uncover the weaponry. This isnt an elite strat - its BASIC TEAMPLAY.

"Its a bit quiet - I'm checking rine spawn"
"Spawn's deserted. Have they relocated?"
"I can hear building in gen"
"Yes rines are trying to relocate"
"Rush gen, take it down"
"Ok lets push onto their base now, they're bound to be hurting for res"
"GG rines, nice relocate attempt"

Lunixmonster, anytime.

"It lies in the fact that it's EASY to create and sustain a turtled marine base. Which, as you've said necro, is a "winning strategy." The only stipulation required to hold this base is to have a hive within seige range, thus preventing ranged and explosive attacks."

Its not "EASY to create and sustain". While the mechanics of it are simple - drop stuff, build it - its tricky and nigh impossible to actually execute unless the aliens have absolutely no idea what the hell is going on. You can drop turrets but if a bunch of skulks burst from the vents, you've to kill them while building. And thats just basic skulks - gorges can healspray, and early fades can rape through any relocate with ease. If the rines pull if off by actually defending their relocation, and you can't kill their little LA LMG/Shotty selves, then the reason you're losing is because you suck - not because marines are overpowered.

IF rines are clever/devious/sneaky enough to drop a TF, turrets, IPs, a CC, Armoury and 3 siege cannons UNDER YOUR NOSE then you deserve to lose, period. If you CAN'T BE BOTHERED countering their relocate, you deserve to lose. If 6 skulks can't take out 6 nilla marines trying to pull off a relocation then you deserve to lose.

Likewise the door swings both ways. You let aliens OC up around your base? You deserve to lose. Let aliens take all the hives and res? You deserve to lose. Don't upgrade at all? You deserve to lose. Though doubtless someone somewhere is screaming "aliens are unbalanced" because an alien team DARED to beat them through superior teamplay <img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/confused.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='confused.gif'>

ApolloGX · October 2003

you should have sent most of your team as gorge and some lerk

use the EFFECTIVE alien siege of bile bomb to wipe those measely HP turrets out

then the onos can come in, who cares if they die, they go onos again and again

first the onos or the gorges should have taken out the sieges

AND THE RES!

the map is fine and that relocation is good

SlayerOfSkulks · October 2003

</span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>"The marines are teched up and own 90%+ of the map: Marines win.
The aliens are teched up and own 90%+ of the map: Marines win."

Competent play SHOULD beat technology.</td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'>
But it wasn't competent play! It was getting wasted, making *one* smart relocate move, and turtling long enough for the kharaa to get bored and, basically, give one of you free roaming... not because they were too incompetent to prevent it, but because they CHOSE not to because it would've made a drawn-out dull game a stalemated duller game. that JPer didn't get free through exceptional skill or stupidity by the aliens, he got free because the game was getting bored and they didn't care if they won or lost. I personally feel that, if they'd finally broken that lamed base, they'd've been happy, win or lose. I know *I* would've.

</span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>"I'm sorry, but it DOES NOT take a skilled team to sit behind turrets and fire a HMG and grenade spam. Or even weld things."

It takes startling good luck or sheer SKILL to set up a base on a hive doorstep that fully teched aliens can't break.</td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'>
And in this case it was the former. You also shoot yourself in the foot a little later, which I'll come too...

</span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>"After all, if the jetpacker had died because of a built up RR, the game would have continued on in the same manner- a stalemate."

Your theory. They could have JP rushed the RTs and then went for a rapid expansion while the aliens diverted. Or one of a hundred other possibilities.</td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'>
No, they couldn't. They managed to get ONE marine through, after a long length of time. By the sounds of it, even if they'd have been able to afford to give out mulitple JPs, there's no way many marines would've survived... not to mention that, by evacuating that base, it could've been torn down pretty quick.

</span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>"and this hallway isn't the only place that could be lamed up. What about generator room? Two doorways, one that requires an elevator to be lowered (dead give away something is coming). And if we split the alien team to defend key areas and all the marines go to ONE key area- the aliens will lose the first fight (assuming equal skill among players). And it's reasonable to assume ALL the marines will go to one place, because that's the whole point of a relocation. And an expansion is much the same."

Anywhere can be lamed up.</td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'>
Bing! Remember how I said you shot yourself in the foot later?

You tell the aliens that they shouldn't let the marines set up... but now you say the marines can set up everywhere. So, what, the kharaa have to be everywhere at once, and if they aren't, it's their own fault they lose... even if, where they DO go, they manage to take? Even on fairly large teams, this isn't a liely occurence... on smaller one, the concepts of the aliens managing to defend EVERY possible relocate point of the map, just in case the marines decide to base there, is laughable, unless the players in question are all psychics who can tell every marine move before they make it.

</span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>"To prevent marines from turtling anywhere but their marine start, aliens must know:
1) Where they will be going
2) When will they be going
3) Weapons they have"

COMPETENT players know that if its too darned quiet, the marines are up to something, and can then scout the map. That'll tell you where. WHEN is discovered by waiting.</td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'>
But this goes against your previous statements. You've implied the kharaa have to take a proactive stance, defending areas BEFORE the marines set up there. But now, they have to wait and see what happens? Not to mention, your suggestions don't actually do what they said... He said you need to know where and when they're going. Your suggestion tells us where they are *at that moment*.

</span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>Likewise the door swings both ways. You let aliens OC up around your base? You deserve to lose. Let aliens take all the hives and res? You deserve to lose.</td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'>
What's that? Marines deserve to lose if the kharaa had the hives and the res points?

...I'm just gonna wait for the penny to drop, right here.

Necrosis · October 2003

"But it wasn't competent play! It was getting wasted, making *one* smart relocate move, and turtling long enough for the kharaa to get bored and, basically, give one of you free roaming... not because they were too incompetent to prevent it, but because they CHOSE not to because it would've made a drawn-out dull game a stalemated duller game."

Digging in at arguably one of the best known bolt holes on the map IS a competent move. I challenged you to suggest another strategy in the circumstances - you've refused to answer. This could be because you're trolling, you've no idea of another strategy, or you agree that it was the wisest move for the marine team and you just lack the spine to admit to it.

There's no way those relocations can be luck. Consider, if you will, that ONE comm made whatever move that caused rines to start losing, and a NEW comm created the bolt hole and planned to expand to red room. Or are you stuck in the delusion that a foolish comm somehow, through blind luck, managed to concentrate his forces on TWO OF THE MOST EASY TO DEFEND AREAS ON THE MAP. Turtling? From the sound of it they were barely scraping res together - and may have had to actually RESEARCH the JP before using it to break out. We don't know the story either way, but you're convinced that the marines played badly, and I'm convinced that it's two different comms. Thats a moot point, but what we DO know is that ALIENS LET IT HAPPEN FROM GAME START. Say what you like about the rine comm - it'll only drag the convo off topic - but the fact remains the alien TEAM played badly.

"that JPer didn't get free through exceptional skill or stupidity by the aliens, he got free because the game was getting bored and they didn't care if they won or lost."

Your hypothesis, with no grounding in the facts. We've no idea how good the JPer was at all. We can at least guess at the comms skill because he made STRATEGICALLY SOUND DECISIONS which paid off, arguably as a result of alien incompetence.

"I personally feel that, if they'd finally broken that lamed base, they'd've been happy, win or lose. I know *I* would've."

Your "feelings" have no bearing in a thread concerning SOLUTIONS.

"And in this case it was the former. You also shoot yourself in the foot a little later, which I'll come too..."

Good luck that the comm picked the two defensible rooms? You're living in an off topic dreamworld.

"No, they couldn't. They managed to get ONE marine through, after a long length of time. By the sounds of it, even if they'd have been able to afford to give out mulitple JPs, there's no way many marines would've survived... not to mention that, by evacuating that base, it could've been torn down pretty quick."

Again, your own poorly conceived idea. Do explain how (in your concept) only one JP rine out of several could leave a base. The comm sent ONE JP out of the base, he did so without a problem. If aliens FAIL TO STOP ONE SINGLE JP, HOW WILL THEY STOP SEVERAL? While we're on the subject, explain how raping the alien RTs would not have distracted what was evidently a poor alien team. Why "evacuate" base, as well? No need to! Expansion doesn't mean ANOTHER relocation. Do keep up. BTW, are you saying rines had no other strategic options? And I suppose their comm is still using "luck"? Don't make me laugh harder.

IF YOU YOURSELF CANNOT THINK OF A BETTER STRATEGY, DOES THAT MEAN YOU CONSIDER YOURSELF A DUMB COMM WHO GETS LUCKY? Facts of the matter indicate a clever late game comm who focused on the key areas of the map, areas he could take AND hold, that were in siege range of hives. It is what ANY competent comm would do.

"Bing! Remember how I said you shot yourself in the foot later?

You tell the aliens that they shouldn't let the marines set up... but now you say the marines can set up everywhere."

Those of us with a grounding in strategic gaming will know that ANY POSITION CAN BE FILLED WITH TURRETS. Anywhere on the map that a rine can get to, can be turreted. Yes? The marines can set up anywhere on the map. Do you disagree? BTW, how are "don't let rines set up" and "rines CAN set up anywhere" opposed? THEY'RE COMMENTS THAT AGREE WITH EACH OTHER.

Now, according to map design, some of these areas will be harder to break than others. The SMART part is only letting the marines build at places where you can defeat them easily. IE you don't let them in red room, you don't let them in the room with things area, etc. You let them take powersilo's corridor, or gen (which is nicely placed but easy to crack once you have three hives).

"So, what, the kharaa have to be everywhere at once, and if they aren't, it's their own fault they lose... even if, where they DO go, they manage to take?"

The job of aliens is to police the map, clearing out marine friendly areas. Does this require you to be everywhere at once? Evidently not. Clever scouting and general moving about will show marine movements. YOU have shot yourself in the head, nevermind the foot, because you've revealed you have no idea of basic scouting/observation, strategic planning, or that prevention is better than cure.

"But this goes against your previous statements."

No it doesn't. Proactive planning sits right beside policing the map WATCHING for enemy action.

"You've implied the kharaa have to take a proactive stance."

Not implied, I stated that strategy relies on a proactive stance. You disagree?

"But now, they have to wait and see what happens? Not to mention, your suggestions don't actually do what they said... He said you need to know where and when they're going. Your suggestion tells us where they are *at that moment*."

Did you read it? Or just copy and paste? I stated quite clearly how you can narrow down where they're going it and when. Its the best you can get, and all you need. Simple, basic, FUNDAMENTAL strategy.

Lets read it again:

"COMPETENT players know that if its too darned quiet, the marines are up to something, and can then scout the map. That'll tell you where. WHEN is discovered by waiting. Weapons they have? If you've spotted the relocation, or a train of rines, and TELL THE TEAM, the team response will uncover the weaponry. This isnt an elite strat - its BASIC TEAMPLAY."

Now, tell me where in this statement that it disagrees with proactive action? You only know what weapons they have by seeing them. Unless you can tell otherwise? If you spot a train of rines heading to a hive, what does that tell you about the future? Its quite easy isnt it? And this is where strategy starts - observation. Engaging that marine train means they don't get to that hive. Thats proactive action. My quote tells you exactly how to ascertain enemy movement. You can also sit near marine spawn and wait for them to leave - unless you can think of a better way of learning when marines are leaving base?

"What's that? Marines deserve to lose if the kharaa had the hives and the res points?

...I'm just gonna wait for the penny to drop, right here. "

Yes, rines deserved to lose. So? Deserving to lose, and LOSING, are two different things. Those aliens had the run of the map, all the res, all the hives, but as a team played like idiots. Did they deserve to win? You're saying a foolish team deserved to win purely because they had all the tech? The rines had very little res and an intelligent comm - did they deserve to lose against what would appear to be a poor alien team?

BTW are you going to continue to drag this off topic? Because honestly I expect better. Quoting small bits of text and trying to mush them together might work for the fools who read the last post, but for those reading the THREAD you're just making a bigger fool out of yourself.

I continue to challenge you to produce a BETTER strategy for the losing marines than to turtle at one of the most easily defended points before breaking out to ANOTHER easily defended point in siege range of a hive.

Or you can ignore everything, again. Chop out three lines of text, again. And ignore the fact that the late game marines made consistently intelligent decisions against a substandard alien team.

This is a thread for discussion of SOLUTIONS to this perceived imbalance. So far I've addressed the premise, offered a solution, and additionally suggested that the best policy is PREVENTION of the situation occuring.

So far, slayer, you have offered........... what? OT discussion? Wildly conflicting views that indicate little to no grasp of key strategy? I'm not intending to be rude but quite honestly if you can't offer a solution, and have neither the humility nor honesty to admit that the marine comm made a tactically sound move, then you shouldn't be trolling out of your depth.

Forlorn · October 2003

So you admitting that if the aliens make <b>one</b> slip up, then the marines will win?

Sounds a lot like failing to prevent/stop a JP/HMG of 1.04 to me. Skulks aren't going to be 100% succesfull at stopping marines from getting to just ONE area. If it were that easy for the skulks, then this game would be horribly unbalanced.

And another point:

This game is about res and hives. If the aliens get 2/3 hives, and only 2 out of the total amount of nodes on the map are marine controlled, then the aliens deserve to lose? Something is not right. And, the part that is not right is crappy map design. Every area should have a weak point for both kharaa and marines.

SlayerOfSkulks · October 2003

</span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>"But it wasn't competent play! It was getting wasted, making *one* smart relocate move, and turtling long enough for the kharaa to get bored and, basically, give one of you free roaming... not because they were too incompetent to prevent it, but because they CHOSE not to because it would've made a drawn-out dull game a stalemated duller game."

Digging in at arguably one of the best known bolt holes on the map IS a competent move. I challenged you to suggest another strategy in the circumstances - you've refused to answer. This could be because you're trolling, you've no idea of another strategy, or you agree that it was the wisest move for the marine team and you just lack the spine to admit to it.</td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'>
You obviously haven't read my posts very well, because I've admitted, several times, that locating there WAS a good move. But it was *a* good move, and I DON'T agree than one single good move should undo the superior playing of the aliens to that point. The Kharaa had it won, and the marines settled down to turtle. It's hardly world-class tactics.

And please stop bandying 'troll' around... argue against my words, not my character.

</span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>There's no way those relocations can be luck. Consider, if you will, that ONE comm made whatever move that caused rines to start losing, and a NEW comm created the bolt hole and planned to expand to red room. Or are you stuck in the delusion that a foolish comm somehow, through blind luck, managed to concentrate his forces on TWO OF THE MOST EASY TO DEFEND AREAS ON THE MAP.</td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'>
One comm, two comms... the TEAM was in a horrible losing position, backed itself into a corner (and yes, THAT could've been luck... the marines at the time may have wound up in that position, and so that's where they had to set up shop.) and then a lucky player managed to get past the aliens to one of the best-know spots for marines to defend in. Red Room is hardly a secret that only elite comms are privy to.

</span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>Turtling? From the sound of it they were barely scraping res together - and may have had to actually RESEARCH the JP before using it to break out.</td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'>
Yep, that's right. If the situation was reversed,would the kharaa, on one node, have lasted long enough to evolve/save for trait/evolution/chamber X that would've gotten them out of it? No, they would've been sieged to heck long beforehand. The kharaa have an extremely difficult time beating even an average marine team if they've camped up good and proper, as this team has.

You have STILL failed to state how on Earth this cannot be an imbalance, given that the marines have an extremely easy way to comabt a, yes, siege, by building the aptly names siege cannon... but the aliens do not. Marines controlling 90% of the map could siege the encamped kharaa from the position of their choice, forcing the aliens to either come out of hiding and face them, or... well, actually, there is no or. It's that or die. But the kharaa have to irectly break through the marine defenses, which requires a *far* greater amount of teamwork and individual player skill.

You stated some good fades could get in there and chip away quick enough to break through... Would you say the skill required is the same as the skill needed to build a siege? And would it take the same amoount of time and res to breech the encampment? Because if the answer to either of those is 'no', we have an imbalance.

And for that matter, let's say it WAS two comms. Are you saying that a marine team that has spent the majority of a game with a terrible comm, no tactics, little resources, shouldn't lose compared to an alien team that were controlling the map and beating them at almost every area, should still be able to beat off everything the aliens can throw at them for what sounds like an extended period of time and make a comeback? But I thought the superior team should win.. and if the marine team was most certianly NOT superior for the majoirty of the match, shouldn't they have lost?

</span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>'We don't know the story either way, but you're convinced that the marines played badly, and I'm convinced that it's two different comms. Thats a moot point, but what we DO know is that ALIENS LET IT HAPPEN FROM GAME START.</td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'>
What we KNOW is that, from the game start, the aliens had the marines on the run, and wound up fully teched and controlling 90% of the map and most of the res nodes... and then had no easy way to break through that last 10%. What we KNOW is that, even if we assume the aliens had left that area open as a mistake on there part, (and who says they did? who sayd the marines didn't simply defeat the defenses there, in one of there few victories across the map? As you say, we don't.) this one mistake on the aliens part was nothing compared to the many mistakes the marine TEAM made (regardless of comm) to wind themselves in that position in the first place. Are you saying the aliens have to play an absolutely flawless game to win, even if the marines make mistakes? If you are then, wait for it, we have an imbalance.

</span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>Say what you like about the rine comm - it'll only drag the convo off topic - but the fact remains the alien TEAM played badly.</td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'>
On the contrary, it was the marine TEAM that played badly, which is why they got themselves into the situation where they only owned one small part of the map. A good part, yes. The ALIEN team was dominating them everywhere... and suddenly hit a brick wall (of lame). And quite how you can comment on the game being won by the superior team, but then say discussing the comming is off topic, is beyond me. That'd be like talking about bad chamber choices for kharaa without bringing up the groge players that chose them.

</span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>"that JPer didn't get free through exceptional skill or stupidity by the aliens, he got free because the game was getting bored and they didn't care if they won or lost."

Your hypothesis, with no grounding in the facts.</td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'>
Apart from, you know, the original poster explaining exactly why the alilens didn't lame the whole level up. And that reason is, surprisingly, the very one I said up there.

</span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> We've no idea how good the JPer was at all.</td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'>
You're right. But we CAN state that he found it very easy to suceed in his goal. Why can we state that? Because the alien's didn't resist. How do we know the alien's didn't resist? Because the original poster *said* so. I never remarked on the JPers skill, because I didn't need to.

</span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>We can at least guess at the comms skill because he made STRATEGICALLY SOUND DECISIONS</td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'>
After , from the situation he landed himself in, a lot of not-quite-so-strategically-sound ones. Do you see?

</span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>which paid off, arguably as a result of alien incompetence.</td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'>

Except not arguably, because the original poster already explain it wasn't incompetance, they just didn't much care at that point. As I've stated several times, in my previous replies.

</span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>"I personally feel that, if they'd finally broken that lamed base, they'd've been happy, win or lose. I know *I* would've."

Your "feelings" have no bearing in a thread concerning SOLUTIONS.</td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'>
Yes. And *I'm* a troll. :/

</span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>"And in this case it was the former. You also shoot yourself in the foot a little later, which I'll come too..."

Good luck that the comm picked the two defensible rooms? You're living in an off topic dreamworld.</td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'>
See above. And if nothing else, you seem to consider yourself an intelligent man, so let's talk law of averages; there are how hundreds, maybe thousands, of games of NS played every day, for quite a long time now. Law of averages states that, occasionally, people are going to luck into great tactical postiions, Indeed, that how most of the great tactics were FOUND... not by people sitting down with a big list of the mathmatics behind the game, but by trying random things out and seeing what worked.

And you still don't seem to have factored in that this 'inferior' alien team had the marines on the run for the majority of the game, and lost simply because the marines wound up in a particlar area. Not because of exceptionally clever tactics... just because the marines set up base at a particular (and yes, advantageous) position.

Come to thin of it, that's another point... You state the aliens lost because of their early mistake of not securing certain areas, and yet you ignore the marine mistakes that lost them *every other area on them map*? So the marines can rightly make a comeback despite early mistakes, but if the kharaa make them , they deserve to lose? If thart's the case... and you're probably getting tired of hearing this... it's an imbalance.

</span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>"No, they couldn't. They managed to get ONE marine through, after a long length of time. By the sounds of it, even if they'd have been able to afford to give out mulitple JPs, there's no way many marines would've survived... not to mention that, by evacuating that base, it could've been torn down pretty quick."

Again, your own poorly conceived idea. Do explain how (in your concept) only one JP rine out of several could leave a base. The comm sent ONE JP out of the base, he did so without a problem.</td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'>
OK, let's play you at your own game for a second. How do you KNOW he had no problem sending that marine out? How do you even know it was his first attempt? All we know is that the marines were holed up for ages, (presumably trying to expand outwards on some level, because would you just want to stay still forever while teched-up aliens pounded away at you little by little?) and after a significant amount of time, only one marine had made it out.

How could only one JP of several make it out? Wel,, imagine a room. The room is square, with two doors on opposite sides. The walls along are covered in turrets and LMG marines. You set a load of skulks to make a mad dash through the middle. Are they all going to make it through? Doubtful. Will one? Perhaps. The JPers would've been going through something pretty similar to that... the marines base was coevered from all sides by kharaa, and its probably safe to say they wouldn't have just watched as the JPs flew over their heads. Some, likely most, would've died, taking the res spent on the JPs with them... and res is hard to come by in that situation. Well-concieved enough for you? I'd really like it if you could just try to counter my points, WITHOUT throwing in cheap shots in the middle. I really don't want this descending into a flmae war.

</span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>If aliens FAIL TO STOP ONE SINGLE JP, HOW WILL THEY STOP SEVERAL?</td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'>
Timing? Luck? Or maybe they didn't... like I said, you have no idea how many JPers were sent, so maybe they DID stop several. Maybe he sent marines to one exit to cause a distraction or draw fire, while the JPer snuck out other way. There are plenty of clever ways, and as you seem to hold an intelligent comm was in the chair at this point, he probably could've thought of one. If nothing else, the good ol' law of averages states that, if he sent JP marines on a mad dash whenever he had the RES to afford one, ONE of them was eventually going to break through.

</span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>While we're on the subject, explain how raping the alien RTs would not have distracted what was evidently a poor alien team. Why "evacuate" base, as well? </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'>
Consider that bad wording on my part. My basic point was that if the majority of the marines were sent out at once, that would've left few behind to guard the first base. And seeing as you haven't quoted what I said in greater context than that, (and as these posts are so long it'd take forever for me to find out what I said before,) I'm going to leave it at that.

</span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>IF YOU YOURSELF CANNOT THINK OF A BETTER STRATEGY, DOES THAT MEAN YOU CONSIDER YOURSELF A DUMB COMM WHO GETS LUCKY?</td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'>
OK, better strategy; the marines should've never gotten into that situation. After all, the ALIENS have to win by always being one step ahead of the marines no matter what outlandish tactics they come up with, according to you, so I'm goingto say the same here. The marines should've been more in control of the map, so they didn't have to hole up in one place. And seeing as you never put any more detail on exactly how alines should defend every part of the map at once, that presumably means I don't need more detail here. Ithankyou.

</span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>Facts of the matter indicate a clever late game comm who focused on the key areas of the map, areas he could take AND hold, that were in siege range of hives. It is what ANY competent comm would do.</td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'>

Facts of the matter indicate a dumb early game comm, and despite the khjaraa having the superior tactics, did not win... something which, according to you, should always happen. And if it DOESN'T always happen, that throws into doubt a lot of your presumptions based on that. So which is it? The better teamplayers win? Well, for most of that game, that was the kharaa. Or is teamplay NOT the be all and end all? Well then, at this later point, the kharaa had control of most of the map, although the marine teamplay was superior. (arguably, because there isn't actually much evidence of anything past knowledge of a couple decent relocation areas.)

</span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>"You tell the aliens that they shouldn't let the marines set up... but now you say the marines can set up everywhere."

Those of us with a grounding in strategic gaming will know that ANY POSITION CAN BE FILLED WITH TURRETS. Anywhere on the map that a rine can get to, can be turreted. Yes? The marines can set up anywhere on the map. Do you disagree?</td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'>
Noo, I don't. That's why I kinda brought it up. I'm not in the business of saying things I don't agree with.

</span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>BTW, how are "don't let rines set up" and "rines CAN set up anywhere" opposed? THEY'RE COMMENTS THAT AGREE WITH EACH OTHER.</td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'>

They're not directly opposed, but they DO prevent difficulties for each other. If marines can set up absolutely anywhere, how can it be realistic to say 'defend the places they can set up'. That means defending the *entire map*. Now, that's a LOT of OCs. And I hope the teams are big, because defending the whole map is difficult if each individual alien has to defend 1/6th of it all by themselves.

"So, what, the kharaa have to be everywhere at once, and if they aren't, it's their own fault they lose... even if, where they DO go, they manage to take?"

</span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>The job of aliens is to police the map, clearing out marine friendly areas. Does this require you to be everywhere at once? Evidently not. Clever scouting and general moving about will show marine movements. YOU have shot yourself in the head, nevermind the foot, because you've revealed you have no idea of basic scouting/observation, strategic planning, or that prevention is better than cure. </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'>

No I haven't. But the more people you have scouting, the less you have actually building the defenses you want, the less you have going on the offensive, the less you have securing resource points, and so on, and so on. What youu say aplied very well... with *large* teams. With medium and small ones, it simply isn't possible to properly police the entire level theway you suggest, and if that isn't possible, then it's a bit short-sighted to simple assume that aliens deserve to lose because they ddn't perform action X within the first minute... Esepecially considering the marines ALSO made mistakes in those first few crucial minutes. I just want to ask you one simple question: Do you feel it would be OK if the marines, having owned 90% of the map, tw hives locked down, and cornered the kharaa into a small area, then lost? Regeardless of what happened beforehand, in *that current situation*, who should win? Because if the answer is the marines, but in the situation the guy found himself in the answer is ALSO marines, then, yep, imbalance.

</span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>"But this goes against your previous statements."

No it doesn't. Proactive planning sits right beside policing the map WATCHING for enemy action.</td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'>

But the marines didn't take any proactive planning either. You can't have it both ways; either early bad moves should make for a loss, or they shouldn't, and the marines made more early bad moves.

</span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>"You've implied the kharaa have to take a proactive stance.But now, they have to wait and see what happens? Not to mention, your suggestions don't actually do what they said... He said you need to know where and when they're going. Your suggestion tells us where they are *at that moment*."

Did you read it?</td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'>
Yes, I read it. You said to see where they're going, and then wait. Wait? *WAIT*? That doesn't sound a whole lotta proactive from where I'm sitting.

</span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>Or just copy and paste?</td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'>
Quit the insinuations, I doubt anyone is impressed or fooled.

</span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>I stated quite clearly how you can narrow down where they're going it and when. Its the best you can get, and all you need. Simple, basic, FUNDAMENTAL strategy.

Lets read it again:</td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'>

Yes, let's.

</span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>"COMPETENT players know that if its too darned quiet, the marines are up to something, and can then scout the map. That'll tell you where. WHEN is discovered by waiting.</td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'>
STOP.

There, that's the line. "WHEN is discovered by waiting." So you wait, and something happens, and that's when? Or, what, is there something you can look for in am empty room that will tel you the marines are going to set up shop there, if you just.. wait... long enough? I don't understand how waiting can possible tell you when something is going to happen BEFORE it happens... and if it only tells you after it's started happening, then it's not pro-active.

</span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>If you spot a train of rines heading to a hive, what does that tell you about the future? Its quite easy isnt it?</td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'>
Yes, very easy. And not at ALL like telling, in the first few minutes of the game, where the marine team is going to set up camp 15 minutes later.

</span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>"What's that? Marines deserve to lose if the kharaa had the hives and the res points?

...I'm just gonna wait for the penny to drop, right here. "

Yes, rines deserved to lose. So? Deserving to lose, and LOSING, are two different things.</td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'>
And so, we come full circle. You're right, and likewise, deserving to win and winning is a different hing. And his situation, winning was an awful lot more difficult than it would've been if the roles were reversed. So, we're right back where we've started. And what have we learnt?

Well, we've learnt that early mistakes by the aliens should bury them but early mistakes by the marines are OK as long as they turn it around, something the aliens shouldn't be able to do. We've learnt that it's entirely acceptable for an alien team of, say, average skill, to be held at bay by a marine team that has been beaten back and forth by them throughout the map, as long as they do it in a certain location. (Well, assuming they change to a better comm, because that makes everything OK.) We've learnt that there s absolutely no imbalance in alien teams needing exceptional skill to beat sieges that a marine team could beat with a simple SC.

Please counter what I'm saying, please tell me those things aren't what you're saying. I want you to, seriously. I want you to show me how those thigs aren't what you mean, or how I'm missing some mysterious point that hasn't been brought up yet, that makes those things balance.

</span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>Those aliens had the run of the map, all the res, all the hives, but as a team played like idiots. Did they deserve to win? You're saying a foolish team deserved to win purely because they had all the tech? The rines had very little res and an intelligent comm - did they deserve to lose against what would appear to be a poor alien team?</td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'>

See, the recurring theme amongst everything you say is your insistence that the kharaa team was basically crud, and the marine team was overall far superior. Take the leap of thought for a moment, and ask yourself; how did the team with no teamplay control the game for so long? Here's another one for you; let's make a hypothetical leap. Let's say that it was later on, toward the end, and the marines had started to wipe thing out, taking over. Now, let's say a really clever player suddenly swapped into the game, and started taking more charge of the alien team. Can you think of a clever spot the kharaa could've holed up in in order long enough to make a comeback, as the marines did? Did they deserve to, after the stint of weak teamwork?

</span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>BTW are you going to continue to drag this off topic? Because honestly I expect better. Quoting small bits of text and trying to mush them together might work for the fools who read the last post, but for those reading the THREAD you're just making a bigger fool out of yourself.</td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'>
Ahh, so not content with trying to impune on my character, you're now taking the time to drag out this thread with a dig at my posting style? Hmm. I find it ironic that you can talk about teamplay, frankly.

</span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>I continue to challenge you to produce a BETTER strategy for the losing marines than to turtle at one of the most easily defended points before breaking out to ANOTHER easily defended point in siege range of a hive.</td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'>
Well, I have done now. I've taken a leaf from your book, and just said they shouldn't have let it happen in the first place. After all, prevention is better than cure, right? <img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/wink.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='wink.gif'>

</span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>Or you can ignore everything, again. Chop out three lines of text, again. And ignore the fact that the late game marines made consistently intelligent decisions against a substandard alien team. </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'>
Oh, I ididn't gnore that at all. I just argue the validity that they got that chance in the first place.

</span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>This is a thread for discussion of SOLUTIONS to this perceived imbalance.</td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'>
Not... quite. This is a topic on the percieved imbalance in itself. This contains solutions, but is not limited to it. A lot of posters were implying this mbalance did not exist; my original post was simply to say that, in fact, it does. You seem to have taken it as something much more than it was.

</span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>So far, slayer, you have offered........... what? OT discussion? Wildly conflicting views that indicate little to no grasp of key strategy? I'm not intending to be rude</td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'>
Yes, it's amazing how people can sometime achieve things without really trying, isn't it?

</span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>but quite honestly if you can't offer a solution,</td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'>
Oh, I agree the solutions many people have made exist, I just argue whether the difficulty of the solutions is warranted... Or to put it another way, I argue if this is an imbalance. Which is not, as you keep suiggesting, OT.

</span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>and have neither the humility nor honesty to admit that the marine comm made a tactically sound move,</td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'>
Except, you know, I have. *Several times.*

</span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>then you shouldn't be trolling out of your depth.</td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'>
Sp, what, anyone who disagrees with you is a troll? You're the one who's being hurling insinuations around, not me. Go around the forum, read some of my posts. I'm far from a troll, but I'm not someone to let go of a debate... and considering you don't seem to want to let go either, it's a little hypcritical of you to sugeest I'm trolling when I'm just doing the same thing you're doing, except I'm being more polite about it!

If you wish, (and this is entirely your choice,) you can bring this to e-mail; I think it's on my profile, and if not, I'll give it to you. I'll debate this here or there, but I offer this option because, well, if you honestly believe I'm a troll, maybe this'll show I'm not. I've never heard of a troll that trolls in private conversation before. (And, frankly, we're clogging up the page with our lengthy debate... I can be incredibly long-winded, as you can see.)

Morrik · October 2003

I'm not even going to bother with this issue. Here's the simple solution:

Lerks early on.

GAS THEM TO DEATH!

That causes them to come out of the base, skulks/fades = insta deth for Marines.

Why is that tactic so hard to grasp? I'm blaming the fault on the Aliens for letting the Marines stay there as long as they did to get HA / HMG's / GL's with only TWO resources towers.

Necrosis · October 2003

There's a long version, and a short version.

Short version first -

You're still dragging the topic OT, as I predicted. You've nothing productive to offer as a real solution to whats evidently a situation that arose due to poor play.

"You obviously haven't read my posts very well, because I've admitted, several times, that locating there WAS a good move. But it was *a* good move, and I DON'T agree than one single good move should undo the superior playing of the aliens to that point. The Kharaa had it won, and the marines settled down to turtle. It's hardly world-class tactics."

No, you've been saying it was blind luck. And why precisely does ONE good move defeat an alien team? Because the alien team is substandard. The mistakes listed in this thread are classic mistakes made by the inexperienced.

"And please stop bandying 'troll' around... argue against my words, not my character."

If you insist on dragging the thread OT and still refuse to offer a productive solution, preferring instead to cut and paste previous posts out of context........... well if the cap fits...

"One comm, two comms... the TEAM was in a horrible losing position, backed itself into a corner (and yes, THAT could've been luck... the marines at the time may have wound up in that position, and so that's where they had to set up shop.) and then a lucky player managed to get past the aliens to one of the best-know spots for marines to defend in. Red Room is hardly a secret that only elite comms are privy to."

How did that one player get the JP? Drop it himself? And then who was comm while he pottered off to redroom? So rather than entertain the realistic idea that a new comm stepped into the chair, you'd rather believe a lucky comm picked a perfect relocation beside a hive, turtled and teched up jps, picked the best marine BY CHANCE and sent him BY CHANCE to readyroom where he BY CHANCE managed to place a base?

"If the situation was reversed,would the kharaa,"

Its irrelevant if the situation were reversed - Kharaa can't relocate, and thus should understand the need for hive defence. Kharaa have different strengths and weaknesses - so different that it's idiotic to try and make a direct comparison in terms of "spawn defence". You should know this.

"The kharaa have an extremely difficult time beating even an average marine team if they've camped up good and proper, as this team has."

Ridiculous. And an outright lie.

"You have STILL failed to state how on Earth this cannot be an imbalance,"

No, I've been discussing the "imbalance" of marines turtling in defensive positions. YOU are the one dragging this OT into your own private little discussion.

Second, I reiterate that you simply CAN NOT COMPARE KHARAA AND MARINES DIRECTLY. They work on two very different levels. For sieging to work you need Obs, or LOS. Obs require energy, los requires marines getting into a hive. If rines can penetrate to get los to a hive and maintain it, then they rightly deserve to take that hive. If rines use obs then one has to question why Kharaa let the marines get so close with the siege cannon.

BTW, since you're on the note of "omgzor rines overpowered" I note that Marines don't have amazing CC ability, nor can they regenerate for free, nor can they build medpack dispensers, nor can they redeem back to marine spawn, nor can they wallhack stationary enemies, nor can they equip themselves once they have enough res. Wow, marines and aliens sound like TWO DIFFERENT THINGS, dont they?

"Marines controlling 90% of the map could siege the encamped kharaa from the position of their choice, forcing the aliens to either come out of hiding and face them,"

Shocking - sounds like the entire point of being alien in NS - killing marines. Could be wrong though.

"But the kharaa have to irectly break through the marine defenses, which requires a *far* greater amount of teamwork and individual player skill."

Yes, while marines depend on their comm. Oo, thats another of those key team differences.

"Because if the answer to either of those is 'no', we have an imbalance."

No, we have two different races with two different abilities. Go and play AvP and AvP2 then come back with a better understanding of balance. Or most of the later C&C games. Or Emperor: Battle for Dune. Or Starcraft. Or Conquest: Frontier Wars. Or Homeworld. Or Homeworld Cataclysm.

Note that they contain different races with different strengths and weaknesses. Thats not imbalance, its diversification.

"Are you saying that a marine team that has spent the majority of a game with a terrible comm, no tactics, little resources, shouldn't lose"

Compared to a team of equally bad alien players? I'd say its a flat 50 50. However, bring in a late game better comm whose ONLY OPTION IS TO TURTLE AND TECH and I'd say the rines deserve a chance.

"But I thought the superior team should win.. and if the marine team was most certianly NOT superior for the majoirty of the match, shouldn't they have lost?"

Your evidence of this? Poor alien TEAM vs Bad COMM = pretty poor game. Midgame, poor comm is replaced by GOOD COMM. Poor alien team < Good Comm.

"What we KNOW is that, even if we assume"

Know...... assume.......... how odd.

"the aliens had left that area open as a mistake on there part, (and who says they did? who sayd the marines didn't simply defeat the defenses there, in one of there few victories across the map? As you say, we don't.)"

The aliens, as a "mistake" left open both redroom and the room with things area. Does that sound, to you, as a mistake made by a competent alien team? Does it not sound to you, as a supposed experienced player, like the action of a team of new players?

"this one mistake"

Two, lets not forget redroom. And those are the two we KNOW of.

"on the aliens part was nothing compared to the many mistakes the marine TEAM made (regardless of comm) to wind themselves in that position in the first place."

Which you ASSUME the marines made. How about a failed shotty rush? Aliens destroyed marine base while they were trying to slash and burn? All valid moves that can go awry. Initial bad comms can do a lot of damage to a rine team, which is critical since the earlygame can be very easily dominated by aliens once marines screw up (and messing up a shotty rush and getting MS destroyed can happen very easily).

"Are you saying the aliens have to play an absolutely flawless game to win, even if the marines make mistakes?"

No, YOU are saying it. I'm merely saying that any alien team that leaves open two of the most important map locations is just asking for trouble. Leaving open redroom or letting marines siege at a hive isnt a "flaw", its a massive glaring strategic error which makes you lose games. Would you call "not building IPs at all" a flaw? Should marines win for making this "minor flaw" of not building IPs? Please, there are fundamental mistakes that cost you games, and letting rines lame up on your doorstep has to rank in the top 3.

"On the contrary, it was the marine TEAM that played badly"

Your hypothesis, unsubstantiated by the facts, and you're still in denial - claiming marines chose the best two areas of the map and teched up to JPs through blind luck.

"And quite how you can comment on the game being won by the superior team, but then say discussing the comming is off topic, is beyond me. That'd be like talking about bad chamber choices for kharaa without bringing up the groge players that chose them."

What has comming got to do with the comment that the superior team won? This isn't a comming thread, in fact its about aliens. Remember the first post, away back when we were on topic? Thats why some of us were making "alien solutions" posts? Yes?

And BTW (you'll probably use this to drag the thread even further off topic) bad chamber choices don't necessarily involve bad gorge players - sometimes the team makes the wrong call. But thats probably an imbalance isnt it? And why cant marines build portable forcefields eh? C'mon, lets REALLY drag this thread OT.

"Apart from, you know, the original poster explaining exactly why the alilens didn't lame the whole level up. And that reason is, surprisingly, the very one I said up there."

Really? They were bored from game start? They knew it would end in stalemate, and thats why they didn't even put 1 OC up in redroom? Ah, it all makes sense now, they're PSYCHIC! Thats why they did nothing to stop the marines taking the decisive areas - it was all destiny.

Sure.

Me - "We've no idea how good the JPer was at all. "

You - "I never remarked on the JPers skill, because I didn't need to."

Also you - "that JPer didn't get free through exceptional skill"

Liar?

"After , from the situation he landed himself in, a lot of not-quite-so-strategically-sound ones. Do you see?"

You've absolutely no idea what happened before these "blind luck" perfect strategy moves. For all we know, the previous comm could have screwed up. Hell, perhaps its the same comm and his shotty rush died en route to hive. But continue to keep bashing those overpowered marines..... shall I point out the many mistakes we KNOW that alien team made that prove their poor play?

"Except not arguably, because the original poster already explain it wasn't incompetance, they just didn't much care at that point. As I've stated several times, in my previous replies."

Getting into room with things successfully - poor alien play.
Laming it up under their nose - poor alien play
Digging in and teching up - poor alien play
Redroom being undefended THROUGHOUT THE GAME - poor alien play

One rine getting to an undefended redroom from a lamed up room on the aliens doorstep with little to no hassle - Aliens didn't care.

Have you noticed how the earlier incompetent mistakes lead to the latter? Are we paying attention to what other people say? What you've stated several times is your own little response that has zero bearing or relation to what people are saying.

"Your "feelings" have no bearing in a thread concerning SOLUTIONS."
"Yes. And *I'm* a troll. :/"

Do tell me how your "feelings" are involved in a fact based discussion on how poor alien play is not grounds for claiming imbalance. Or feel free not to tell me, since you've not answered other questions.

"Law of averages states that, occasionally, people are going to luck into great tactical postiions, Indeed, that how most of the great tactics were FOUND... not by people sitting down with a big list of the mathmatics behind the game, but by trying random things out and seeing what worked."

There is the law of averages, and there's Occum's Razor.

How does a marine team magically pick the two most defensible positions on a map and hold them against a full team of virtually entirely teched up and resd up aliens? In this case the most obvious answer - a good comm and bad aliens. Evidence? Aliens letting marines lame up on a hive's doorstep. Aliens leaving open strategic positions.

"And you still don't seem to have factored in that this 'inferior' alien team had the marines on the run for the majority of the game, and lost simply because the marines wound up in a particlar area."

An inferior team vs inferior team with a comm switch - or a comm whose initial strategy failed (and its happened to all of use). We have evidence of mistakes on the aliens part, and evidence of clearly intelligent moves on the part of the marines.

"You state the aliens lost because of their early mistake of not securing certain areas"

No, I state that aliens lost because they didn't stop MARINES securing certain areas. There's a very big difference, which you seem to have missed, either deliberately or by "blind luck".

"and yet you ignore the marine mistakes that lost them *every other area on them map*?"

What marine mistakes? List them.

"OK, let's play you at your own game for a second. How do you KNOW he had no problem sending that marine out?"

That bit of text you keep crying about that says the aliens didn't stop him. Second, the list of alien counters to break the base. BTW have you noticed how this is offtopic to the original post?

"All we know is that the marines were holed up for ages"

On the doorstep of a hive in an easily defended area

"(presumably trying to expand outwards on some level, because would you just want to stay still forever while teched-up aliens pounded away at you little by little?)"

Building up res, holding aliens back (you don't expand past onos that are waiting for you)

"and after a significant amount of time, only one marine had made it out."

A JP magically appears and gets past aliens who had become largely bored.

"The JPers would've been going through something pretty similar to that..."

Similar except they can hover, they have guns, and the turrets aren't firing at them, but WITH them.

Sounds like a different thing entirely, to me.

"the marines base was coevered from all sides by kharaa, and its probably safe to say they wouldn't have just watched as the JPs flew over their heads."

Yet you're the first to claim the aliens "let it happen" because they were bored.

"I'd really like it if you could just try to counter my points, WITHOUT throwing in cheap shots in the middle. I really don't want this descending into a flmae war."

I'd like it if you answered mine, and stopped dragging this whole thread further off topic. But we don't get what we wish for, do we.

"And seeing as you haven't quoted what I said in greater context than that, (and as these posts are so long it'd take forever for me to find out what I said before,) I'm going to leave it at that."

Its an easy quote to find. I'm taking my time replying to you, I'd expect the same in kind from someone looking for intelligent debate.

"OK, better strategy; the marines should've never gotten into that situation."

Wait a minute, that sounds almost identical to what I've been saying to you....

"After all, the ALIENS have to win by always being one step ahead of the marines no matter what outlandish tactics they come up with, according to you, so I'm goingto say the same here."

Ah, so thats why - they should have followed the core idea of strategy and ACTED PROACTIVELY. I'm so glad you're catching on to this.

"And seeing as you never put any more detail on exactly how alines should defend every part of the map at once, that presumably means I don't need more detail here."

Seeing how everytime I quote you and tell you in simple terms that aliens need only scout the map, and you ignore me, I can see that you're unable to actually list real strategic details when pressured.

"despite the khjaraa having the superior tactics, did not win..."

Letting rines lame up outside a hive?
Leaving redroom open throughout the game?

Superior? Hilarious.

"Well, for most of that game, that was the kharaa."

You assume.

Or is teamplay NOT the be all and end all? Well then, at this later point, the kharaa had control of most of the map, although the marine teamplay was superior. (arguably, because there isn't actually much evidence of anything past knowledge of a couple decent relocation areas.)

"Those of us with a grounding in strategic gaming will know that ANY POSITION CAN BE FILLED WITH TURRETS. Anywhere on the map that a rine can get to, can be turreted. Yes? The marines can set up anywhere on the map. Do you disagree?"

"Noo, I don't. That's why I kinda brought it up. I'm not in the business of saying things I don't agree with."

So why do you defend a point you disagree with? That sounds like trolling. You agree marines can setup anywhere.... yet you would claim they can't?

"They're not directly opposed, but they DO prevent difficulties for each other. If marines can set up absolutely anywhere, how can it be realistic to say 'defend the places they can set up'."

No, YOU are saying "defend the places they can set up". I am saying "prevent them from setting up defences". In the case of redroom, this means getting there first and dropping OCs to buy time. In the case of every other space on the map, it means watching for building and taking proactive action.

I've said it again, and no doubt you'll STILL ignore it.

"So, what, the kharaa have to be everywhere at once, and if they aren't, it's their own fault they lose... even if, where they DO go, they manage to take?"

"No I haven't. But the more people you have scouting, the less you have actually building the defenses you want"

True if scouting was slow - but its not. Skulks can scout maps very quickly, building noises travel a decent distance, hell even gorges building defences can hear marines a corridor or so away.

"What youu say aplied very well... with *large* teams."

It applies to all teams. I've played on all sizes - its all the same.

"then it's a bit short-sighted to simple assume that aliens deserve to lose because they ddn't perform action X within the first minute"

This is the point YOU are pushing. I HAVE SAID NO SUCH THING. But thats not the first time I've said that to you either.

"Esepecially considering the marines ALSO made mistakes in those first few crucial minutes."

You assume. As opposed to "mistake", in the singular.

"I just want to ask you one simple question:"

Cheap coming from someone who refuses to answer my own, or claims he disagrees with his own comments.

"Do you feel it would be OK if the marines, having owned 90% of the map, tw hives locked down, and cornered the kharaa into a small area, then lost?"

Its all very dependant on how you define locked down and what happened throughout the game. If they lock down the map but lose their CC and IPs in a daring alien rush, then yes they deserve to lose for letting it happen.

"Because if the answer is the marines, but in the situation the guy found himself in the answer is ALSO marines, then, yep, imbalance."

And as you can see, the answer is not marines. But you'll probably claim you agree with me, and thus make yourself more a liar. Or someone who says things they don't agree with. Imbalance? For marines leaving their IPs and CC open to a skulk rush? You'd be laughed out of the forum for letting your base fall to such a simple strat. People would say "build a turret in base to stop it happening" and then some troll would come along and say "no, marines should have a counter to let them win when they have the entire map, all the res, 2 hives and no IPs or CC".

"But the marines didn't take any proactive planning either."

I'd call teching up to JP and sneaking out of base fairly proactive to losing. Second, the marines may not have taken any proactive action earlygame.... but that is why they ended up holding one spot on the map.

"either early bad moves should make for a loss, or they shouldn't, and the marines made more early bad moves."

Wrong. You can have it both ways, since dumb early moves can be just as fatal as dumb late moves (ie aliens taking out your IP and CCs at endgame).

"Yes, I read it. You said to see where they're going, and then wait. Wait? *WAIT*? That doesn't sound a whole lotta proactive from where I'm sitting."

So you didn't read it, you just stopped at "wait".

"Quit the insinuations, I doubt anyone is impressed or fooled."

No insinuation - you've copy and pasted several times now without understanding the content. This is another example.

"There, that's the line. "WHEN is discovered by waiting." So you wait, and something happens, and that's when?"

Do explain how you can tell when marines are rushing OTHER than by watching their base for them to leave. Or watching their latest tfarm waiting for them to drop IPs. You cannot crush a relocate if you do not know where it is, thus you must wait for the marines to make their move - else you rush the WRONG place. Second, waiting is the NEXT STEP after watching and observing what the marines PLAN TO DO.

"Or, what, is there something you can look for in am empty room"

Who said wait in an empty room? Oh, thats right, you just did. That sounds like a pretty dumb idea, doesn't it?

"I don't understand how waiting can possible tell you when something is going to happen BEFORE it happens... and if it only tells you after it's started happening, then it's not pro-active."

What is it doing? Countering a relocation before it happens. Do you know what this is? Its PROACTIVE. Consider the non-proactive solution - letting them build it, letting them dig into it, and then, maybe, halfheartedly rushing it. There's a BIG difference that any player with a bit of wit and intelligence can spot. You don't understand much, do you.

Yet another case of barely read C&P taken out of context.

"And not at ALL like telling, in the first few minutes of the game, where the marine team is going to set up camp 15 minutes later."

Thats not being proactive, is it. If thats what you think proactivity is, then you need help.

"You're right, and likewise, deserving to win and winning is a different hing."

Yet you STILL claim aliens deserved to win.

"And his situation, winning was an awful lot more difficult than it would've been if the roles were reversed."

Not really. Aliens can't relocate to outside one of three marine spawns and prevent them from teching to HA by locking down their third spawn. Not in the version of NS I'm playing, anyhow.

"So, we're right back where we've started. And what have we learnt?"

No, we're careening further offtopic, you're learning nothing, and people are getting bored reading it.

"Well, we've learnt that early mistakes by the aliens should bury them but early mistakes by the marines are OK as long as they turn it around, something the aliens shouldn't be able to do."

Thats what YOU say. I disagree. Again. Said this several times now. You're very ignorant when it comes to reading other people's posts.

"We've learnt that it's entirely acceptable for an alien team of, say, average skill,"

Thats a joke, for a start

"to be held at bay by a marine team that has been beaten back and forth by them throughout the map, as long as they do it in a certain location."

That you have no idea about. For all we know, the marines tried a shotty rush then fell back to relocate after their spawn was annihilated.

"We've learnt that there s absolutely no imbalance in alien teams needing exceptional skill to beat sieges that a marine team could beat with a simple SC."

Yes, those aliens need sieges to help take down those three lamed up marine spawns - especially with those darned devour redeem Super-HA. I can arrange for the big padded van to pick you up at the door, you know.

"Please counter what I'm saying, please tell me those things aren't what you're saying."

Been doing so, you keep ignoring it, or at worst misquoting it. That sounds like a certain type of internet behaviour. Can anyone remind me what you call it when someone either ignores your posts or quotes them out of context, then turns around and says that although they said the opposite thing to you, they actually agree with you?

Hmm...... I wish I could remember.

"I want you to, seriously."

You don't. I've tried.

I want you to show me how those thigs aren't what you mean, or how I'm missing some mysterious point that hasn't been brought up yet, that makes those things balance.

"See, the recurring theme amongst everything you say is your insistence that the kharaa team was basically crud"

And in your case, marines.

"and the marine team was overall far superior."

In your case, kharaa. In my case, a BETTER COMM.

"how did the team with no teamplay control the game for so long?"

Anyone can skulk rush.

"Let's say that it was later on, toward the end, and the marines had started to wipe thing out, taking over. Now, let's say a really clever player suddenly swapped into the game, and started taking more charge of the alien team."

And rush the CC and IPs? Good job that alien, pity he'll have a thread about him screaming imbalance.

"Can you think of a clever spot the kharaa could've holed up in in order long enough to make a comeback, as the marines did? Did they deserve to, after the stint of weak teamwork?"

Sorry, I keep trying to think of those three marine spawns, and their med turrets, and the marine cloaking upgrade, and all those other things that make marines marines.

"Ahh, so not content with trying to impune on my character, you're now taking the time to drag out this thread with a dig at my posting style?"

C&Ping out of context? I'd say thats related to the character style.

"I find it ironic that you can talk about teamplay, frankly."

How so? If you're trying to quote people out of context, saying you disagree and then saying you agree, making comments that prove you to be either a liar or confused, how does that make you a part of the "team" that makes up the community? Is that even the teamplay you're talking about?

Considering you're calling good marine play substandard, I'm rather confused.

"I continue to challenge you to produce a BETTER strategy for the losing marines than to turtle at one of the most easily defended points before breaking out to ANOTHER easily defended point in siege range of a hive. "

"Well, I have done now. I've taken a leaf from your book, and just said they shouldn't have let it happen in the first place. After all, prevention is better than cure, right?"

So you agree with me after all. Or, more accurately, you've failed to provide a better strategy - instantly negating any sort of chance that you're interested in a genuine debate.

"Oh, I ididn't gnore that at all. I just argue the validity that they got that chance in the first place."

Nope, you keep ignoring it, and you're not arguing the validity - you're complaining that strategic play should lose to a team with little strategy and just a lot of res.

"Not... quite. This is a topic on the percieved imbalance in itself."

It is now.

"This contains solutions, but is not limited to it."

Not anymore. We've had the "aliens need a new weapon" brigade and now we have the "misquote and spam" battalion.

A lot of posters were implying this mbalance did not exist; my original post was simply to say that, in fact, it does. You seem to have taken it as something much more than it was.

"Yes, it's amazing how people can sometime achieve things without really trying, isn't it?"

Oh I suppose thats that "blind luck" thing again, isnt it.

"Oh, I agree the solutions many people have made exist, I just argue whether the difficulty of the solutions is warranted... Or to put it another way, I argue if this is an imbalance."

No, you are screaming that it IS imbalance. If its an imbalance, there is no solution.

"have neither the humility nor honesty to admit that the marine comm made a tactically sound move"

"Except, you know, I have. *Several times.*"

But you refuse to leave it at that, don't you. You say its blind luck, and now its all because aliens can't counter siege. Can you stay on one topic? If you wanted to make a thread about how you can't counter sieges, why not make a new one? Or did you try and people just didn't read it?

"it's a little hypcritical of you to sugeest I'm trolling when I'm just doing the same thing you're doing, except I'm being more polite about it!"

I'm not editing people's words out of context, saying I'm agreeing with them then disagreeing ON THE EXACT SAME SUBJECT, nor am I saying one thing which I say the opposite of elsewhere.

"If you wish, (and this is entirely your choice,) you can bring this to e-mail"

Frankly I don't see the point, considering your continous attempts at twisting quotes, shifting your viewpoint, and apparent inability to keep on topic. Secondly, I already know aliens don't have sieges, and I'm satisfied with the reason for that - I don't need to spend half my life explaining why DIFFERENT RACES CAN'T BE DIRECTLY COMPARED in thousands of FPS and RTS games.

"I can be incredibly long-winded"

Empty vessels.

Anyone care to move this back on topic?

Geminosity · October 2003

~gives necro a cookie~
You made a post so long nobody in their right mind would read it in anything less than paper-back. Congrats, you win <img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/wink.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='wink.gif'>

~audience cheers, que flashing lights and confetti~

Cold_NiTe · October 2003

</span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Necrosis @ Oct 9 2003, 08:22 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>There's a long version, and a short version.

Short version first -

You're still dragging the topic OT, as I predicted. You've nothing productive to offer as a real solution to whats evidently a situation that arose due to poor play.

"You obviously haven't read my posts very well, because I've admitted, several times, that locating there WAS a good move. But it was *a* good move, and I DON'T agree than one single good move should blah blah blah blah blah, I own you, you are teh g@y... Blah blah blah...

</td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'>
Dear God! Now <i>thats</i> what I call <span style='color:red'><b>flame!</b></span>

(No offense intended, I thought that was a creative length to respond with.

Forlorn · October 2003

</span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Forlorn @ Oct 9 2003, 06:49 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> So you admitting that if the aliens make <b>one</b> slip up, then the marines will win?

Sounds a lot like failing to prevent/stop a JP/HMG of 1.04 to me. Skulks aren't going to be 100% succesfull at stopping marines from getting to just ONE area. If it were that easy for the skulks, then this game would be horribly unbalanced.

And another point:

This game is about res and hives. If the aliens get 2/3 hives, and only 2 out of the total amount of nodes on the map are marine controlled, then the aliens deserve to lose? Something is not right. And, the part that is not right is crappy map design. Every area should have a weak point for both kharaa and marines.  </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> 
Necrosis, answer my earlier post. And for lands sake, use the quote function, easily accessible by alt+q, it makes your posts look a lot more neat then the mess you have right now.

Drewbar99 · October 2003

yeah, dam, that was one big post back there <img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/wow.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='wow.gif'>

Long, Cramped Corridor Stalemates (balance Issue)

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