Long, Cramped Corridor Stalemates (balance Issue)
Verus
Join Date: 2003-10-07 Member: 21494Members
Join Date: 2003-10-07 Member: 21494Members
<div class="IPBDescription">When the marines can to easily defend</div> First, I will cite a specific example, and then, I will discuss why a balance issue exists.
I'm not very good with map names. So, in this example, I am speaking of the map that contains the Hives, PowerSilo, Ventiliation, and Cargo Bay.
This game a finished playing not to long ago went on for a little over two hours. (A long time by any standards) This was because of a stalemate balance issue that was created by a very smart marine commander. The commander immediately relocated his base to the Cargo Bay hive. (A common strategy) However, the ingenious bit of this was that he positioned the base in the thin corridor that exists just to the right of the hive. (There is a small room there between the two RTs in Cargo Bay providing enough room for a base) This tactic immediately set him up with two RTs that were extremely close together and very easily defensible from one position. In the meantime, the Aliens (the team I was on) used this marine idea to their advantage. We kept them bottled up in Cargo, destroyed any RT they attempted to build elsewhere, and we basically dominated the entire map, all except cargo. The resource count for the majority of the game was 2 v 8. Now, given this kind of resource count any player worth his salt would say, well, with that kind of res intake this game is all but over. When, in fact, it was not. At one point our entire team could be have Onos and by the time they died, had another 100 res to do it again. (lots of res) However, due to the nature of the position of the marine base, only one onos could fit down the hallway to attack their base at a time. Furthermore, the Onos had no room to dodge or do damage to the base as they had constructed turrets in the way of the Onos getting to the meat of the base. So simply put, the Marines had their entire team stuck in this little room decked out in Heavy Armor with GL's and HMG's. If you even thought about brining your Onos into that tiny little hallway you would be greated with a very swift death to grenades and gunfire. Even if you all attacked in unison, only one Onos could fit in at a time, and he could be easily crushed. Granted there were two small hallways leading to the Marine Base, but it was no problem for the Marines to cover both hallways as they were so close to each other. Furthermore, since it was equally as easy for them to defend their two RTs they could weather assault after assault, and if anything ever did happen they were constantly bringing in just enough RTs to stay alive, indefinitely.
We tried everything. Lerks with Umbra did little good as only one Onos could fit into the tight space at a time. Grenades and HMGs simply laughed at the Umbra and dealt quick death to any assaults. Any attempt to build structures such as OTs or DTs near their base for support was quickly nullified by siege cannon. In the end, since the Marines were completely unassaultable it was inevitable that they would win the map. Slowly but surely they snuck the same game out of base with a jetpack would would fly about the map looking for a good spot to kill hives. Finally, after two hours, he found his way into the Red Room where they quickly set up a siege turrets, a phase gate, and turrets in a once again nearly unassaultable area to siege out the vent hive. It was then only a matter of seconds before their entire team could use jetpacks to fly to the next hive and quickly destroy it foregoing their base defense since w/o a hive, the aliens were stuck anyways. (This did not happen immediately but over time) Sure, there were things we could have done to keep from losing the game. (Such as placing a billion OTs on every square inch of the map to stop the Jetpacks) What was the point? We couldn't beat them, and then, they wouldn't be able to beat us and this game would have gone on ad infinitum.
The balance issue that occurs here is mainly a map issue. The fact that marines can lock down small corridors with grenade and HMG fire to even the most fierce alien assault is absurd. The fact that the only real way they could have been defeated was if the aliens had a third hive was even more absurd taken into account that their little indestructible base was located within siege range of the third hive. Most of all, the fact that a stalemate is even possible is the most absurd measure of all.
The simple fact is, an Onos simply isn't that useful in a very tight space. Especially when strategic barriers have been placed to keep him from moving. (Such as simple, cheap turret walls) Even with his stop which could stop marines from shooting at him, they could simply leap on top of structures to avoid the stomp or rely on Grenade Launchers around corners to make the Onos's job impossible. Coupled with areas of maps in which only one Onos may advance at a time makes the Umbra useless. Given that Fades didn't have acid rockets nor did we have Xenocide (3 hive requirement) there was no viable ranged attacked with which to use to take down these marines. Simply put, the lerks spike attack is not useful against a heavy armor marine who can simply weld back whatever the lerk is shooting at. This is not the mention all the grenades taht would be flying in the lerks direction.
So, how does this stalemate occur? It occurs when: A. The marines are in a tight corridor that is easily defensible because no more than one Onos can attack the base at a time. B. The marines strategically chose a tight corridor that cover one or two RTs. C. THe marines have upgrades and heavy armor. D. The marines corridor keeps the aliens from acquiring a third hive. (This may seem like a lot, but if you think about all the maps, how unlikely is this to occur? I have already named one example and I can think of at least two more)
The balance issue exists because of the following:
The onos is to large and to easy of a target. He gets stuck easily on marine structures, has little maneuverability, and simply can't withstand any amount of sustained assault from HMG's and GL's. In fact, one Onos takes up a whole corridor thus stopping his other Onos buddies from being useful while they watch their friend die in less than half a second.
The aliens don't get a worthwhile ranged attack until the Fade recieves acid rocket by the third hive. Before that, the only ranged weapon the aliens have are spikes (nearly worthless) and bile bomb (short range). In general, the fade is to weak. (but that is another issue)
The Aliens have no siege equpment. They have no form of a "siege cannon." The marines can always root out aliens from a defended position, but this is not always the case for the aliens.
Maps have resources that are not strategically placed, and not all maps have multiple vantage points to every area on the map.
The onos stun stomp doesn't effect marines who are standing on top of structures. Thus to kill an onos, you sit on top of a turret or structure that is strategically placed behind a cluster of other structures (so the onos can't get to you easily) and blow him to kingdom come with an HMG while he can do nothing back.
The onos in general is to weak. This, I have no doubt, will be hotly debated. The fact is, the Onos is to strong when the marines don't have the proper equipment to deal with him, and he is far to weak when they do. Even if you have a lot of Onoses together, Marines who craftly place themselves inbetween structures so that the Onos can't reach them will easily defeat any amount of Onoses. The Onos is to big and to cumbersome for the confied condition of the game. He either needs to be smaller (say near fade size) or he needs to have his collision detection reworked.
Lerks umbra is largely ineffective against HMG fire and completely ineffective against GL's. It doesn't last long enough either.
If you have questions about how this situation could have occured, think about when you are trying to take down a marine main base in the end game. Generally, if the game has gone on long enough for the Marines to have upgrades, armor, and guns yet they have still fought a losing battle, how hard is it for the Aliens to march in? Even with a third hive this can prove extremely difficult. Now, think about how would you do it if you didn't have a third hive.
Here is another example of this kind of stalemate. Suppose in the map containing the hives of Sewer, Generator, and Vent that the marines set up a base in the large room next to Sewer. From here, they can easily siege out the Sewer hive. Now granted this is not as bad of an issue as the previous example as the marines don't have a very defensible res tower, but the principle is the same. Due to the size of the Onos, you can not cross into that room from the sewer because the Onos has to crawl through the pipes and/or has to crawl through the connection pipe between sewer and that room. One marine on the ladder with an HMG and one marine with an HMG guarding the pipe will blow any Onos to bits before he can even get out of the pipes to attack. Couple this with Grenade Launchers and now you are not only keeping Onos at bay, you are keeping lerks and skulks at bay as well. The only real worry is a fade (which can easily be destroyed by the rest of the marines in the area who aren't guarding against onos with whatever weaponry they choose.... see fade is to weak now comment) So, without acid rocket, xenocide, and web you are pretty much having to go up against a defended postion that you can not destroy. Now, granted, you could take over the whole stage thus depriving marines of resources, but what would happen if in that same room there eixsted one or even two RTs? (This is what happened in the previous example)
I'm not very good with map names. So, in this example, I am speaking of the map that contains the Hives, PowerSilo, Ventiliation, and Cargo Bay.
This game a finished playing not to long ago went on for a little over two hours. (A long time by any standards) This was because of a stalemate balance issue that was created by a very smart marine commander. The commander immediately relocated his base to the Cargo Bay hive. (A common strategy) However, the ingenious bit of this was that he positioned the base in the thin corridor that exists just to the right of the hive. (There is a small room there between the two RTs in Cargo Bay providing enough room for a base) This tactic immediately set him up with two RTs that were extremely close together and very easily defensible from one position. In the meantime, the Aliens (the team I was on) used this marine idea to their advantage. We kept them bottled up in Cargo, destroyed any RT they attempted to build elsewhere, and we basically dominated the entire map, all except cargo. The resource count for the majority of the game was 2 v 8. Now, given this kind of resource count any player worth his salt would say, well, with that kind of res intake this game is all but over. When, in fact, it was not. At one point our entire team could be have Onos and by the time they died, had another 100 res to do it again. (lots of res) However, due to the nature of the position of the marine base, only one onos could fit down the hallway to attack their base at a time. Furthermore, the Onos had no room to dodge or do damage to the base as they had constructed turrets in the way of the Onos getting to the meat of the base. So simply put, the Marines had their entire team stuck in this little room decked out in Heavy Armor with GL's and HMG's. If you even thought about brining your Onos into that tiny little hallway you would be greated with a very swift death to grenades and gunfire. Even if you all attacked in unison, only one Onos could fit in at a time, and he could be easily crushed. Granted there were two small hallways leading to the Marine Base, but it was no problem for the Marines to cover both hallways as they were so close to each other. Furthermore, since it was equally as easy for them to defend their two RTs they could weather assault after assault, and if anything ever did happen they were constantly bringing in just enough RTs to stay alive, indefinitely.
We tried everything. Lerks with Umbra did little good as only one Onos could fit into the tight space at a time. Grenades and HMGs simply laughed at the Umbra and dealt quick death to any assaults. Any attempt to build structures such as OTs or DTs near their base for support was quickly nullified by siege cannon. In the end, since the Marines were completely unassaultable it was inevitable that they would win the map. Slowly but surely they snuck the same game out of base with a jetpack would would fly about the map looking for a good spot to kill hives. Finally, after two hours, he found his way into the Red Room where they quickly set up a siege turrets, a phase gate, and turrets in a once again nearly unassaultable area to siege out the vent hive. It was then only a matter of seconds before their entire team could use jetpacks to fly to the next hive and quickly destroy it foregoing their base defense since w/o a hive, the aliens were stuck anyways. (This did not happen immediately but over time) Sure, there were things we could have done to keep from losing the game. (Such as placing a billion OTs on every square inch of the map to stop the Jetpacks) What was the point? We couldn't beat them, and then, they wouldn't be able to beat us and this game would have gone on ad infinitum.
The balance issue that occurs here is mainly a map issue. The fact that marines can lock down small corridors with grenade and HMG fire to even the most fierce alien assault is absurd. The fact that the only real way they could have been defeated was if the aliens had a third hive was even more absurd taken into account that their little indestructible base was located within siege range of the third hive. Most of all, the fact that a stalemate is even possible is the most absurd measure of all.
The simple fact is, an Onos simply isn't that useful in a very tight space. Especially when strategic barriers have been placed to keep him from moving. (Such as simple, cheap turret walls) Even with his stop which could stop marines from shooting at him, they could simply leap on top of structures to avoid the stomp or rely on Grenade Launchers around corners to make the Onos's job impossible. Coupled with areas of maps in which only one Onos may advance at a time makes the Umbra useless. Given that Fades didn't have acid rockets nor did we have Xenocide (3 hive requirement) there was no viable ranged attacked with which to use to take down these marines. Simply put, the lerks spike attack is not useful against a heavy armor marine who can simply weld back whatever the lerk is shooting at. This is not the mention all the grenades taht would be flying in the lerks direction.
So, how does this stalemate occur? It occurs when: A. The marines are in a tight corridor that is easily defensible because no more than one Onos can attack the base at a time. B. The marines strategically chose a tight corridor that cover one or two RTs. C. THe marines have upgrades and heavy armor. D. The marines corridor keeps the aliens from acquiring a third hive. (This may seem like a lot, but if you think about all the maps, how unlikely is this to occur? I have already named one example and I can think of at least two more)
The balance issue exists because of the following:
The onos is to large and to easy of a target. He gets stuck easily on marine structures, has little maneuverability, and simply can't withstand any amount of sustained assault from HMG's and GL's. In fact, one Onos takes up a whole corridor thus stopping his other Onos buddies from being useful while they watch their friend die in less than half a second.
The aliens don't get a worthwhile ranged attack until the Fade recieves acid rocket by the third hive. Before that, the only ranged weapon the aliens have are spikes (nearly worthless) and bile bomb (short range). In general, the fade is to weak. (but that is another issue)
The Aliens have no siege equpment. They have no form of a "siege cannon." The marines can always root out aliens from a defended position, but this is not always the case for the aliens.
Maps have resources that are not strategically placed, and not all maps have multiple vantage points to every area on the map.
The onos stun stomp doesn't effect marines who are standing on top of structures. Thus to kill an onos, you sit on top of a turret or structure that is strategically placed behind a cluster of other structures (so the onos can't get to you easily) and blow him to kingdom come with an HMG while he can do nothing back.
The onos in general is to weak. This, I have no doubt, will be hotly debated. The fact is, the Onos is to strong when the marines don't have the proper equipment to deal with him, and he is far to weak when they do. Even if you have a lot of Onoses together, Marines who craftly place themselves inbetween structures so that the Onos can't reach them will easily defeat any amount of Onoses. The Onos is to big and to cumbersome for the confied condition of the game. He either needs to be smaller (say near fade size) or he needs to have his collision detection reworked.
Lerks umbra is largely ineffective against HMG fire and completely ineffective against GL's. It doesn't last long enough either.
If you have questions about how this situation could have occured, think about when you are trying to take down a marine main base in the end game. Generally, if the game has gone on long enough for the Marines to have upgrades, armor, and guns yet they have still fought a losing battle, how hard is it for the Aliens to march in? Even with a third hive this can prove extremely difficult. Now, think about how would you do it if you didn't have a third hive.
Here is another example of this kind of stalemate. Suppose in the map containing the hives of Sewer, Generator, and Vent that the marines set up a base in the large room next to Sewer. From here, they can easily siege out the Sewer hive. Now granted this is not as bad of an issue as the previous example as the marines don't have a very defensible res tower, but the principle is the same. Due to the size of the Onos, you can not cross into that room from the sewer because the Onos has to crawl through the pipes and/or has to crawl through the connection pipe between sewer and that room. One marine on the ladder with an HMG and one marine with an HMG guarding the pipe will blow any Onos to bits before he can even get out of the pipes to attack. Couple this with Grenade Launchers and now you are not only keeping Onos at bay, you are keeping lerks and skulks at bay as well. The only real worry is a fade (which can easily be destroyed by the rest of the marines in the area who aren't guarding against onos with whatever weaponry they choose.... see fade is to weak now comment) So, without acid rocket, xenocide, and web you are pretty much having to go up against a defended postion that you can not destroy. Now, granted, you could take over the whole stage thus depriving marines of resources, but what would happen if in that same room there eixsted one or even two RTs? (This is what happened in the previous example)
Comments
There you go.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->In general, the fade is to weak. (but that is another issue)
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Roofles.
Anyways, they had electrified turret factories a plenty up there and built a new base, so the aliens punished them by taking over the rest of the map.
Due to their elevated, dark, cramped position onos were only good for keeping them from building on the ground... but luckily, I was around =P
My problem in NS is that I don't like onos... I think they're smelly, fat and ugly and I never want to be one so I always go the way more elegant fade. The team held the marines pinned but couldn't do anything so I blinked happily in through all their bullets cutting them assunder and trying to gut their stuff but the elec TFs would zap me every time. On my last run in after a small 'leak' had to be dealt with (they got into RR so we bounced in and killed them) somebody went 'woah gem! how did you get up there?'
Soon, we had 3 fades running around =3
With 1 fade we'd never have taken them out but with 2 fades working together while the other kept them busy we slowly broke their base apart, electrified RT after electrified RT.
The onos might be the bashing hardcore unit of NS but for that match it was the fades with help from ever vigilant gorges, lerks and skulks that saved the day =D
The moral of the story; marines in a onos-unfriendly area? USE FADES! LOTS OF THEM!!! XD
Yes, if you had THAT many res, you should have secured red room, heck they should have never been able to get out more than one marine at a time.
There are many issues in NS such as the one explained here.
Mostly, in the beginning, the Kharaa wil pretty much wipe out the Marines in a straight fight. The Kharaa doesn't have to worry about the burden of creating a respawn point or running out of ammunition. Imagine a map in which marine start and the hive were next to each other. Who'd win first? The Kharaa would...
However, it is quite the contrary once the Marines have gotten their upgrades. Upgraded marines can quickly take out evolved Kharaa forms. This is partly because the Kharaa doesn't have many viable long-range attacks, while all of the Marine weapons are long-range. A small Marine base can quickly expand by way of sieges and advanced marine weaponry.
In my opinion, a perfect resolution would be an equaling curve of upgrades. First generation alien attacks are equal to first generation marine attacks, 2nd to 2nd, 3rd to 3rd, and so on. If one team lags behind on their upgrades, they will not be the race to continue existing.
There are many issues in NS such as the one explained here.
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I don't think people are "criticizing" this guy, they are instead stating gameplay strats that would have prevented this scenerio.
When Marines are holed up in a corner with little res, that's the perfect time to drop OC's all over the place to protect your hard fought ground. You don't want a marine sneaking out and ruining your day.
As far as 'many issues', I don't think so... all situations including this one, have ways to counter them. That's what makes NS so great. We aren't dealing with version 1.04 JP/HMG rushes which were almost impossible to stop.
NS is almost perfect, the things that need to be addressed are minor %'s of objects.
You just need the right mix of alien races and some co-ordination... 2 onos meet in the hall, they file in single file and all attack the same object. How long is that object going to survive? not long.... Follow that up with a gorge or two flinging bile and it will take the marine team significant time to rebuild (plus cash they don't have). Include a lerk sporing and umbra'ing from the vent and they should be able to take most things out..
Co-ordinated attacks are what's needed... and sometimes yes, it takes time but patience goes a long way in NS..
My 2 cents
Z
What I would have done in your situation would be to use onos simply to stomp the marines while gorges bile bomb the structures. Of course that requires team work. <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin.gif'><!--endemo-->
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->The aliens don't get a worthwhile ranged attack until the Fade recieves acid rocket by the third hive<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
That nails it.
I think this is the key to achieving balance in the endgame stalemate situation. A ranged attack that can deal with heavies.
- Spikes own light marines, but do nothing against heavies.
-Bile bomb is excellent the way it is, but again nada against heavies.
-Gorge spit is not effective in the late game.
-Parasite... <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif'><!--endemo-->
Thats is for alien ranged attack.
Acid rocket remains the only ranged attack that could potentially stop heavy armor. I think the damage and radius are fine now. One fade should not be able to kill ha easily using only acid rocket. En masse its a different story, like an endgame situation.
I propose that acid rocket come as a 2nd hive ability. Metabolize is not extremely useful as it exists right now. It has been suggested and i think accepted that metabolize well be improved with the next patch.
But it would probably suck as a 3rd hive ability. Honestly I don't know what the 3rd hive ability should be if acid rocket were moved.
In the situation Verus described, with the marines in a cramped location loaded with fully equipped ha, I don't think Geminosity's approach would be as successful. Powersilo offers plenty of blinking room, which is not the case near cargo. Massed fades would be ripped to shreds.
A turtling situation like Verus' example practically screams for acid rocket spam. The splash damage of acid spam by multiple fades with lerk support (primal) will anihilate even ha marines in a cramped hallway.
After saying all that, I don't know how badly my proposed solution would unbalance things. Most of the time endgame stalemates do prolong the game, but end after relentless alien pressure. And if the marines manage to hold off the aliens through their/comm's skill, stock up, and go on the offensive, more power to them. Its a great game experience either way.
Is it the right thing to alter the game dynamics by messing with hive ability order to deal with one relatively infrequent game situation? I don't know. That's up to Flayra.
Marines dominate in corridors...
Because they get outright PWNED if Aliens are mobile. Rines only get toasted in corridors if they're nublars who decide clustering is the win.
You lost because....
Onos aren't endgame material. They're HA killers, TF smashers, not base rapers. Second, noone in their right mind leaves red room open to marines. Noone. If red room wasn't locked down, that indicates inexperienced player, which leads me to
Fades are underpowered...
If you've no idea HOW to use them. Get a clan demo. Get any experienced player on a server. Observe how the fade not only kills but RAPES marines with terrifying regularity.
How to stop small corridor lockdowns?
CRUSH the rines before they dig in, and keep crushing them till they relocate somewhere you like. If they get dug in, take celerity carapace skulks, and xeno their base mercilessly. They were just next to cargo? Push them out of cargo, then lame up the area so no rine gets LOS to the hive. If your res is huge you can afford to keep putting the hive up.
Xeno/Spore the base remorselessly until at least half the marines are dead. At this point, and this point only, do you rush in with EVERYTHING - this specifically means the onos you've been saving. Get in, gore gore gore gore (bring gorges with BB and redeem/adren if you can't afford onos) then redeem/run back to a hive when the rines spawn back in. Rinse and repeat. If third hive is up you can web any rines still standing, onos can stomp the IPs long enough for skulks to bite them down - its all coordination. Chip chip chip then rush with all force - works a charm.
Rines die, buildings can't be replaced, and eventually you'll be able to run in unhindered for the grand final rape.
And on a final note, if you do all the above and LOSE, then do so with dignity because you were beaten by the better team. Rines in a defensive position thats hard to crack, with full upgrades and coordinated play is called a winning strategy, not unbalanced play.
Preventing the situation is beyond the scope of this. I agree, some preventive measures could have been taken in the first example. Some preventive measures could have been taken in the second example (if you even read that much of the original post). I'm not interested in preventive measures, I'm interested in a solution to a problem IF it so happens to occur. If the only solution is to this problem is "Don't let this problem happen" then I have a great marine strategy for this particular map and a few others. <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif'><!--endemo--> Saying, "don't let them dig in" once again is beside the point, for a multitude of reaons beyond the one I just mentioned. As always, saying something and actually doing something in a situation are two different things.
Fades blinking is easy in theory. When you are battling in a corridor that is barely the height of the fade and you have to surrmount a few turret walls WHILE being shot at by HMG's and Grenade Launcher spam in the hallway itself, you won't survive. Even if you do survive to take a single swipe at a marine before you get dusted, what good prevailed from this? This is not to mention that the hallway in question is only wide enough to allow only one fade to blink up at a time. If you think you can do this with a fade you either aren't playing against Marines who would be in this situation in the first place (i.e. they suck) or you aren't in the situation in the first place. (much like the jetpack example from above)
Secondly, attacking a base to slowly do damage over time to it is of course a viable option and was tried. A point in this particular discussion (and an important one) was that the Marines had 2 unattackable RT's. So, you manage after 3 or 4 attempts to finally kill that one turret. They will just rebuild it. They can weld, rebuild, etc. etc. So long as they have these resource towers (as was also aforementioned in the above requirements) you will not be able to slowly deteriorate their defenses.
This is purely a stalemate scenario and it could/does happen. Once again, I reiterate, even if the entire map had been locked down with offense chambers so we didn't lose, what good would that have accomplished? We couldn't beat them, and they wouldn't have been able to beat us. So the game then becomes who can stay in the game the longest. I'm not arguing this wasn't a very effective strategy on the marines part (I even mentioned that it was), but that it is unfair to the aliens to have no means with which to deal with a situation like this.
As for rebutting other statements:
I mentioned onos stomp (see above as to why it doesn't work)
I mentioned fades blink (see above as to why it doesn't work)
I mentioned umbra (see above as to why it doesn't work)
I mentioned bile bomb (see above as to why it doesn't work)
As for building the 3rd hive and continuously rebuilding it as they sieged it. (LOS or no LOS they can simply ping it) This might have been viable and wasn't tried. This isn't a pretty solution, and it would take forever yet I would not say it would be impossible. Once again however, if we had had three hives, we wouldn't have been in this situation in the first place. So, you are correct in that aspect.
When mostly regulars were on the games with that relocation on ns_nothing lasted no more than 50 minutes or so. Basically 3 guys went Onos and we had 7 skulks and 2 gorges. 2 Onos ran in from the Cargo Side, 1 Onos from the other (towards Marine Start and Miasma kinda...) with skulks running on the ceiling and dropping into the Marine base. The single Onos was Regeneration and rushed in with 3 or 5 skulks 5 seconds after the others rushed (we had great communication and had run into this tactic so many many times it was just intution half the time) and the Cargo side had 2-4 skulks (cant remember exactly how many skulks were on each side) and 2 gorges healing. One Onos had Redemption and the other Regen.
Now because the 2 Onos ran before the other side most if not all the 10 available marines (1 was comm for a game of 11v12) ran to that side to shoot at the Onos. Now the Redempt Onos whent in first and Jumped onto the turrets and ran around goring like mad as the Regen Onos stomped. and then gorged turrets. The gorges heal sprayed with Adren and the Skulks just hit the IPs and Marines like mad.
5 seconds into that the Redempt Onos redempts and the Regen Onos is being healed by 2 gorges, and there are only 2 skulks left. The Other side comes in. Regen Onos number 2 and around 5 skulks rush in. The turrets barley injure this Onos and the skulks came in after him and they took out all the turrets along the back and made it in no problems.
By the time the Redempt Onos came back after gettin 3 kills the base was gone and the Comm was dying. This worked every time. All that really matters is your approach. You have to have most the Aliens willing to just run in there and hit the TF with onos and skulks take care of marines. Its the only way that the game wont last 2+ hours.
Only time I remember in 2.0 having a 3 hour game there was when I was stuck with noobs that all were Onos and wouldnt rush in at all. I just switched to the marine team after the Admin said that I should so we could end the game quickly. That was just annoying.
[Caught in a tough situation? Become a mindless killing machine and slaughter all them Marine-e-woos!]
-Red
The point is the fade moves fast and if you've got carpace they're surprisingly hardy (though still not an onos).
You say blinking fades wouldn't work but by your own words you talk about them being weak when most people are aware they're the most lethal thing that appears in the 'big clan games'. Did you have any experienced fades even try to blink down there? Do you have the experience, skill and knowledge yourself to say without a doubt that no fades could blink down there and cause some damage?
Judging by the fact your only mentions of them were being 'weak' and talking about their acid rocket (which I honestly forget exists most of the time ^^; ) as the only viable tactic using them I don't think you're really in an apt position to talk about what a fade can or can't do =/
Maybe you're right... maybe even an experienced fade would've been shredded before doing anything worthwhile but it doesn't like you had anything of the right calibur there to make that judgement off <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif'><!--endemo-->
I'm just a little tired of how underestimated/underused fades can be sometimes that's all <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo-->
Aliens rely HEAVILY late game on attrition, that is constant attacks that wear down stuff so it can be wiped out quickly. Welders make this irrelevent
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->When Marines are holed up in a corner with little res, that's the perfect time to drop OC's all over the place to protect your hard fought ground. You don't want a marine sneaking out and ruining your day.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
OCs do nothing against HA+GL, and jp can fly around them. One JP + GL can quickly chuck 12 grenades into redroom and claim it if aliens aren't right there.
Again there are certain circumstances to be considered but in general, the reasons aliens LOSE any endgame is because the marines take very little damage from attrition, meaning they either repair or replace faster than aliens can kill it.
And fades do work well... in open areas. Doesn't matter how fast a fade is closing down a straight corridor at ha/hmg, if its right at it hes gonna die.
The only way to inflict constant damage in late game is via RANGED attacks. The aliens lack very powerful ranged attacks to begin with, but they are certainly laughable before hive 3.
And yes, relocating to a hive location, 'digging in' and teching up can work on a pub.
It would have helped you not lose. Which is the next best thing.
"The point is, the ALIENS have to have a way to WIN in this situation."
Imagine, if you will, having only one RT, no chambers, you're outnumbered, you're all skulks, the rines have HA HMG GL Motion Tracking L3 Arms and Armour. How do you win?
You don't.
Its not a balance issue, you got creamed by the superior team who dug in hard at a smart spot and took advantage of sheer alien slackness. NO ALIEN TEAM OF MODERATE ABILITY LEAVES RED ROOM OPEN. EVER. It should have been locked down or at least heavily policed LONG AGO. The fact that you didnt lock it down AT ALL reveals a woeful lack of experience on the part of your team.
Preventative measures are the BULK of strategic play. You don't win by letting the enemy get dug in like ticks THEN trying to break them. You break them EARLY, you get them on the ground and you don't stop kicking till they stop moving.
"Fades blinking is easy in theory. When you are battling in a corridor that is barely the height of the fade and you have to surrmount a few turret walls WHILE being shot at by HMG's and Grenade Launcher spam in the hallway itself, you won't survive."
Crouch jump blinking will get you virtually anywhere. If you don't know how to use this you've not played as fade long enough.
"Even if you do survive to take a single swipe at a marine before you get dusted, what good prevailed from this?"
Chip damage. They'll have to medspam, or die. And if they die, you've a window of opportunity to kill others. And eventually half the team are near death and they're relying on their IPs.
One onos can fit at a time, and magically one fade? 2 crouch blinking fades could get in. Fades that have experience (as fades NEED to have). Its not a matter of width, but HEIGHT.
Why were their RTs "unattackable"? It sounds to me like they were in Room With Things, which is out of LOS of cargo hive itself. So you push the rines back till they're out of LOS of cargo, and can only just see the rt - which you can bilebomb from cargo hive. Thats it killed, or at least having to be perpetually rebuilt. The other side could be trickier, granted.
"So, you manage after 3 or 4 attempts to finally kill that one turret. They will just rebuild it. They can weld, rebuild, etc. etc. So long as they have these resource towers (as was also aforementioned in the above requirements) you will not be able to slowly deteriorate their defenses."
Depends exactly how slowly you're hitting rine base. If EVERY player can afford onos, as you claim, then it doesnt take a lot of hits to grease a turret. Arguably faster than they can actually BUILD a replacement if you're keeping the pressure continually on. If you can push them out of LOS of cargo hive you can put it up and annihilate rine spawn. Two gorges could sit literally in the hive and bile turrets one by one. That and ons will destroy anything LOOKING at cargo, so your next concern is their obs and siege turrets.
"but that it is unfair to the aliens to have no means with which to deal with a situation like this. "
Unfortunately thats what losing is. Sometimes the rines get in the right spot and you cant touch them. Sometimes aliens get onos before you can counter. You didnt act proactively to prevent this outcome, so you lose. *shrug*
"I mentioned onos stomp (see above as to why it doesn't work)"
Do read people's posts fully. Stomp is to be employed when they're half strength or less, or spawning AT THEIR IPS WHICH ARE ON THE GROUND as you flee their reinforcement.
"I mentioned fades blink (see above as to why it doesn't work)"
Crouch blink the win. I checked your post for any mention of the word blink. IT DOES NOT EXIST. In this post, you claim there's only space for an Onos. Two crouchblinking fades fit the onos space, and IIRC as they blink they are immune to fire. If you can't crouchblink, you can at least use skulk leap.
"I mentioned umbra (see above as to why it doesn't work)"
And I mentioned spores, which force the rines to the back of their base or force them to medspam. Spores on both sides of the base means massive chip damage to the rines. Only one onos fits in? Excellent, because only one goes in to hit the turrets when the rines are down to half strength.
"I mentioned bile bomb (see above as to why it doesn't work)"
You said it was short range. That was all. Short range is fine considering you're meant to be biling from friendly territory. For being "short" ranged bile goes a hell of a distance.
"As for building the 3rd hive and continuously rebuilding it as they sieged it. (LOS or no LOS they can simply ping it) This might have been viable and wasn't tried."
They can ping but if you can put a horde of DCs closer to the obs AFAIK it'll hit the nearer first. So as long as they're out of LOS you're ok. And once the hive's up, youThere are a lot of places to put chambers that are nearer than the hive. Once the rines are out of sight, they have to rely on ping, and if I'm right then the hive will be very safe. Instead of onos, spam drop DCs after every ping attempt and healspray them as need be. The hive will be untouched. DC and adren gorges can keep the hive in relatively good health if they have only one Obs. Its not pleasant, I agree, but if rines are dug in at a hive then you have to rely on ugly solutions.
Once the third hive's up you have acid rocket, and the all important xeno and can move to full implementation of the above strats.
Though IMHO I still think its foolish to allow rines to dig in and expect to counter it at a later point. I hope this info helps you!
The only exception is 'prevention in redroom'.
In most games you only need someone to keep an ear out for welding noises or run through the vents to make sure they're clear every now and then.
I've yet to be in a game since 1.04 where you couldn't wipe them out of there before they finish setting up with just 1 or 2 waves of skulk/fade hoardes =3
As for the actual corridors in question I managed to kill a group of 3 marines in them without taking a single hit and that's with the fact they knew I was there and was coming. blink is your friend and if you don't crouch when you're blinking I don't know what the heck you've been doing ^^
Imagine, if you will, having only one RT, no chambers, you're outnumbered, you're all skulks, the rines have HA HMG GL Motion Tracking L3 Arms and Armour. How do you win?
You don't. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
But I don't think that's an accurate counter-point to what he said.
The marine team wasn't helpless, like the skulks in your example, but they WERE pretty much contained. But, like he said, they didn't seem to have a way to break through.
Let's switch roles, properly. The marines control the entire map, apart from one hive point. (Because, unlike the marines, the Kharaa can't set up base just anywhere.) Yeah, the marines have most of the map controlls, heavy weapons, HA and JP, Motion Tracking, the works... but the Kharaa have had time to save up plenty of res, whatever evolutions they want and, mysteriously, appear to have all three chambers and ,somehow, abilities from all three hives. Maybe the server glitched, maybe they actually do have the other hives built and the Marines have made some kinda pact not to destroy them, I dunno. To make this an accurate role reversal both sides need all abilities, same as they had in his example.
Now. Who would win in that situation? Well, it'd be the marines. The TSA could keep them contained long enough to build siege, and then it's just a matter of time. The Kharaa would either sit and wait to die, or be forced out to fight them. The TSA are equipped to deal with a heavily encamped force.
But, with the Kharaa on the offensive, controlling the whole level, and the TSA being encamped, it doesn't work. The TSA, in a clever position with full tech, managed to hold off the aliens, also with all evolutions and chambers, for as long as was needed... and for some people to state that a super-fade could've broken through and done some damage is a little odd. A complete n00b marine team, if they had a single clever marine to be comm, could've pulled off that defense effortlessly, but the marine would need some super-star clanners around to break through it? Even though the aliens held all the cards... and the rest of the map?
And this isn't an imbalance?
Please, don't mistake me. I personally DON'T think any changes should be made here. I also DON'T think NS is particularly imbalanced overall. I love the game, it's fantastic. Sure, the marines can relocate here for a fairly easy win... but then, Aliens have particular factors, and in certain situations, they too can set themselves up fora simple victory. It evens out.
But please, let's not pretend that these situations don't exist, that there's always a get-out clause... because there isn't. Stalemates happen. This was one of them. The aliens had no realistic way to win, and the marines only won because the alien team simply couldn't be bothered to draw it out.
The only real question is, does it matter? These things do exist... but they generally don't get used, because few people know of them, and fewer care. 9/10 NS games end in a fair win for one team over another... lengthy end-games, yes, but it's very rare for a true stalemate to occur. It'd be nice to put a stop to them somehow... perhaps a hard-coded time limit of two hours?... But I don't think it's a major issue. (Which is ironic, considering the length of this post about it!)
So, yeah. My point (yup, I'm finally getting to it) is, please, this may not be a big issue... but let's not pretend the issue isn't there. Verus does have a point, AAA fades being able to perhaps break through nonewithstanding.
--
As someone already said you made a big mistake by giving them all the res they needed to tech/dig in the 3rd hive location before starting fullscale attacks. Its not impossible for 2 hive aliens to kill full teched marines, Expecially if they are contained in rather small corridors. And you say it was 6 vs 6? So basicly there were 1 commander, 5 ground guys, well seriously. Even there you have a 1 guy advantage. Only thing you should have done was a somewhat organized attack from both sides and by slowly eating up their buildings.
Anyhows .. if your not going stand the thoughts of what others have wroten, then why debate on the matter any further ? You obviously lost the game, but you lost it after a long hard battle, So it must have been frustrating and fun at the same time. Dont debate on the matter anymore, just adabt to the strategy's you saw and be ready for them in the upcoming games your going to play.
What I would have done in your situation would be to use onos simply to stomp the marines while gorges bile bomb the structures. Of course that requires team work. <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin.gif'><!--endemo--> <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
if the marines camped up the corridor between room with things and ventilation, only one onos could attack from one direction and then a gorge wouldnt fit...
Also remeber they had GLs, resulting in an ability to cause serious damage from around corners...
Just why in god's name are alien hives more friendly to marines than a marine's own base?
FFS, can't the mappers fix obvious things like this? Jeez...
It would have helped you not lose. Which is the next best thing.
"The point is, the ALIENS have to have a way to WIN in this situation."
Imagine, if you will, having only one RT, no chambers, you're outnumbered, you're all skulks, the rines have HA HMG GL Motion Tracking L3 Arms and Armour. How do you win?
You don't.
Its not a balance issue, you got creamed by the superior team who dug in hard at a smart spot and took advantage of sheer alien slackness. NO ALIEN TEAM OF MODERATE ABILITY LEAVES RED ROOM OPEN. EVER. It should have been locked down or at least heavily policed LONG AGO. The fact that you didnt lock it down AT ALL reveals a woeful lack of experience on the part of your team.
Preventative measures are the BULK of strategic play. You don't win by letting the enemy get dug in like ticks THEN trying to break them. You break them EARLY, you get them on the ground and you don't stop kicking till they stop moving.
"Fades blinking is easy in theory. When you are battling in a corridor that is barely the height of the fade and you have to surrmount a few turret walls WHILE being shot at by HMG's and Grenade Launcher spam in the hallway itself, you won't survive."
Crouch jump blinking will get you virtually anywhere. If you don't know how to use this you've not played as fade long enough.
"Even if you do survive to take a single swipe at a marine before you get dusted, what good prevailed from this?"
Chip damage. They'll have to medspam, or die. And if they die, you've a window of opportunity to kill others. And eventually half the team are near death and they're relying on their IPs.
One onos can fit at a time, and magically one fade? 2 crouch blinking fades could get in. Fades that have experience (as fades NEED to have). Its not a matter of width, but HEIGHT.
Why were their RTs "unattackable"? It sounds to me like they were in Room With Things, which is out of LOS of cargo hive itself. So you push the rines back till they're out of LOS of cargo, and can only just see the rt - which you can bilebomb from cargo hive. Thats it killed, or at least having to be perpetually rebuilt. The other side could be trickier, granted.
"So, you manage after 3 or 4 attempts to finally kill that one turret. They will just rebuild it. They can weld, rebuild, etc. etc. So long as they have these resource towers (as was also aforementioned in the above requirements) you will not be able to slowly deteriorate their defenses."
Depends exactly how slowly you're hitting rine base. If EVERY player can afford onos, as you claim, then it doesnt take a lot of hits to grease a turret. Arguably faster than they can actually BUILD a replacement if you're keeping the pressure continually on. If you can push them out of LOS of cargo hive you can put it up and annihilate rine spawn. Two gorges could sit literally in the hive and bile turrets one by one. That and ons will destroy anything LOOKING at cargo, so your next concern is their obs and siege turrets.
"but that it is unfair to the aliens to have no means with which to deal with a situation like this. "
Unfortunately thats what losing is. Sometimes the rines get in the right spot and you cant touch them. Sometimes aliens get onos before you can counter. You didnt act proactively to prevent this outcome, so you lose. *shrug*
"I mentioned onos stomp (see above as to why it doesn't work)"
Do read people's posts fully. Stomp is to be employed when they're half strength or less, or spawning AT THEIR IPS WHICH ARE ON THE GROUND as you flee their reinforcement.
"I mentioned fades blink (see above as to why it doesn't work)"
Crouch blink the win. I checked your post for any mention of the word blink. IT DOES NOT EXIST. In this post, you claim there's only space for an Onos. Two crouchblinking fades fit the onos space, and IIRC as they blink they are immune to fire. If you can't crouchblink, you can at least use skulk leap.
"I mentioned umbra (see above as to why it doesn't work)"
And I mentioned spores, which force the rines to the back of their base or force them to medspam. Spores on both sides of the base means massive chip damage to the rines. Only one onos fits in? Excellent, because only one goes in to hit the turrets when the rines are down to half strength.
"I mentioned bile bomb (see above as to why it doesn't work)"
You said it was short range. That was all. Short range is fine considering you're meant to be biling from friendly territory. For being "short" ranged bile goes a hell of a distance.
"As for building the 3rd hive and continuously rebuilding it as they sieged it. (LOS or no LOS they can simply ping it) This might have been viable and wasn't tried."
They can ping but if you can put a horde of DCs closer to the obs AFAIK it'll hit the nearer first. So as long as they're out of LOS you're ok. And once the hive's up, youThere are a lot of places to put chambers that are nearer than the hive. Once the rines are out of sight, they have to rely on ping, and if I'm right then the hive will be very safe. Instead of onos, spam drop DCs after every ping attempt and healspray them as need be. The hive will be untouched. DC and adren gorges can keep the hive in relatively good health if they have only one Obs. Its not pleasant, I agree, but if rines are dug in at a hive then you have to rely on ugly solutions.
Once the third hive's up you have acid rocket, and the all important xeno and can move to full implementation of the above strats.
Though IMHO I still think its foolish to allow rines to dig in and expect to counter it at a later point. I hope this info helps you! <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
Necrosis:
Dont overestimate your own or other players abilities. If you have one skilled HA with a hmg, he can kill 2 onoses in a situation like the one described.
Turretwalls stop all but lerks and fades, and lerks are not in the game at this point.
Fades are NOT immune to fire when blinking and 12 turrets will kill one before he has a chance to kill a marine. The fade needs to deal roughly 400 dmg with swipe to kill one HA, one that is welded at 50 armour per second and gets medspam whenever. 400 dmg / 80 per swipe is 4 swipes. 4 swipes with 100%a accuracy takes alot of time, enough to kill you several times over.
If the onos cant get as close as to the turrets, youre in deep...the fade has half the health, and will probably not be able to kill a ha without serious backup, and thats one HA for 3 or 4 fades, and maybe a lerk...
With 1 lvl 3 hmg you deal ALOT of damage, and in difference from the SG, it does it constantly and with a long range...GLs cost 20 and are able to spam entrances clean in seconds, not counting on chambers that go down just as fast. HA dont loose much health when attacked, only armour, and with a full HA team you get welded fast. medspam + HA = killed onos
The poster stated redroom was undefended cause noone cared...and I understand his argument. Games going on for 4 hours with the same thing over and over, is boring and unproductive.
With medspam, one JPer can get from cargo to RR fairly easy.
Please dont act like it isnt a problem, you see dug in marines kicking elite players to, really elite players...
While that marine base may be <i>close</i> to a pair of res towers, neither one is actually IN the base. That means if you stop focusing on killing the base itself and focus on hitting the res towers, they will eventually go down, without you ever having to get in range of a turret. Yes, the marines can still attack you, but to do so they have to venture out from their protective wall of turrets, meaning your Onos can eat them (if HA) or your lerks can spore them (if LA). Either way, the marines lose res fast.
Once you have both res towers taken out, wait a bit. The marines will have to try to rebuild them, and when they do, you kill the building marines and take out the res towers again, and each time the total amount of marine res goes down.
When they are too broke to afford a res tower, <i>then</i> you can go eat their turrets, and even if a 3-Onos rush dies after killing just two turrets, the marines are once again losing money. Just make sure there are living aliens still near the area all the time to prevent the marines from rebuilding the RTs.
1) grenades (my arch nemesis >< )
2) walk around the rt aswell (this brings them into slashing range pretty easy and unless you're slow off the mark you should be able to kill them before they kill you =3 )
No idea why, but I've yet to have someone successfully hit me through the legs of the RT in that place with enough damage to overcome regeneration yet o.O
Anyhoo, about the long post, sorry, I'm quite long winded becuase I like to be as accurate as poosible.
I think my position on the whole matter was best summed up from above in that this situation is not really that big of a deal, but it is quite possible for it to occur. I would even go so far as to say that 9/10 games is not really accurate. It probably occurs with even less frequency than that (although I have no statistical analysis to prove this). Although, just because something happens very rarely does not mean it should not be taken seriously. Rarley do we have natural disasters, but that does not mean we should not be concerned with them, as an example.
Another point that was mentioned, which was a much clearer representation of what I was trying to say, is that a balance issue exists because the Aliens have no comparable means of competing with the Marines in a standoff situation. More succintly, the Marines will never find themselves in a standoff situation because they were given the means with which to combat a stalemate, but the Aliens (given that they do not have a third hive) do not have an equally comparable method of dealing with the situation. Perhaps a time limit is a viable solution, or perhaps, the only viable solution is to never get in this situation in the first place. (And as I have said before, if the only solution is prevention then this produces a very upsetting and yes, unbalancing situation) Also along the lines of the latter option, prevention is never a guarenteed method of dealing with a problem, only a way to make a problem less occurent.
As far as the Leet Fade players of the world, I would stand to say that for every person who is so good with a fade as to be able to win in this situation there is a marine who is better.
Perhaps (as was said by another) it is correct that if the Aliens ever find themselves in this situation that they deserve to lose the map. (Afterall, if the Marines ever find themselves in the situation of having no infantry portals, it is their own fault.) Perhaps it is a balance issue that occurs so rarely that few people have experienced it enough to gather any opinion on it. Either way, the idea is present, and it is of course for you to decide on how you feel about it.
As for one more added statement towards the validity of this: (also forementioned by another) if no balance issue occurs then why would it take Marines only a matter of minutes to dig out a fortified Alien position and take the Aliens 10's of minutes or even hours to do they same to a Marine position?
Corrections:
As was mentioned, you are correct. I didn't mention the fade blink in the original post, and I apologize for this. What I meant by the statement was that I mentioned it in the post that contained the erroneous statement.
<!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo-->
"But I don't think that's an accurate counter-point to what he said."
Counter point? No, its a *comparison*. If you have ZERO tech and the enemy have EVERYTHING, you SHOULD NOT WIN NO MATTER WHAT. No tactic, no strategy on this earth will save you.
If you made a thread saying "rines had two hives, full tech, we had skulks and noone dropped chambers at all, this game is unbalanced" people would laugh at you because its not a balance issue, but crappy play.
Putting yourself in a losing position is bad. Half the game is AVOIDING the losing position. Once you're in a losing position, you're screwed. And thats the way it is.
So in effect you've misinterpreted or misunderstood the entire content of my post.
On your "aliens had all the cards" note, I have to say that NO, aliens did NOT hold all the cards because EXPERIENCE and TEAMPLAY was lacking. Aliens PERMITTED rines to dig in at a good location, and thusly put themselves into a losing position. Unbalanced? No.
In a game where aliens have decided never to upgrade, and just skulk rush, then they effectively give themselves no way to win. Thats not imbalance, its poor play.
Poor play has no place in determining game balance.
Forlorn-
"Just why in god's name are alien hives more friendly to marines than a marine's own base? FFS, can't the mappers fix obvious things like this? Jeez..."
Same way 90% of rine spawns are wide open for alien assault - its to make the game playable. If everyone's spawn could be lamed up to the roof and made impregnable, the game would be all but unplayable.
Geronimo-
"Dont overestimate your own or other players abilities. If you have one skilled HA with a hmg, he can kill 2 onoses in a situation like the one described.
Turretwalls stop all but lerks and fades, and lerks are not in the game at this point."
With respect, I know what I can do and I know what people on my server can do. And neither them nor myself would frankly be dumb enough to rush a dug in pile of HMG monkeys using Onos. I set out to you EXACTLY what I would do, which only involved onos at the last minute AFTER the base was at least half strength.
"Fades are NOT immune to fire when blinking"
No I'm pretty sure they are. You can see them, shoot AT them, but it wont count. Fade's not meant to kill HA, he's meant to hit turrets and buildings, possibly LA of opportunity. And again, two crouch leapers can buzz in right before the onos - so you've 2 fades, and onos, and our lerky friend dropping SPORES. Bye bye LA, bye bye turrets. Onos dies? You've res for more. Fades both die? Wow, still tons of res left.
Chip chip chip, with a dedicated team.
"Please dont act like it isnt a problem, you see dug in marines kicking elite players to, really elite players..."
Yeah, wanna know why? Because of the alien TEAM's crappy play. The entire situation in this thread would have been avoided with competent TEAM play. TBH I care very little for trying to find solutions for problems that only arise because EARLIER ACTION WAS NOT TAKEN. If you are not on the clock for the entire duration of the game, then you DESERVE to lose for being so slack. Thats how the game works.
So IMHO the best solution to breaking ANY defence is not letting them put it up in the first place. This strategic dogma dates back forever. I fully sympathise with people who've dug their own grave, but the fact of the matter is you allowed it to happen in the first place - the ultimate responsibility relies with the player to SPOT the patterns and ACT before the enemy does.
Redroom is all but impenetrable once marines lame it up. So do you:
A) Claim the game is unbalanced because you let rines lame up a room you know to be impossible to break
B) Kill the lone JP rine and put up some OC to stop them trying again.
Personally I'd pick B, because A to me is rather foolish. Proactive strategy will win everytime.
"You shouldn't have let them put up defenses in the first place".
Do you realize just how absurd this sounds? If a marine team can make a good game by dropping very minimal base defenses and then going out to gather res, and <i>still</i> not lose thier base, how exactly do you intend to crush their base that early in the game if all they are doing is putting up defenses there and teching? Simple: You don't. You gather up the rest of the res on the map, get some hives and chambers, get higher lifeforms, and come back later to exactly the situation this thread has described.
Now, I will grant you that preemptive action can stop the marines from laming up extra-tough places like Red Room and the Power Silo roof, but that's only because the Marines cannot even begin to build a base there until they have advanced to the top of their tech tree for Jetpacks, so you have plenty of time to stop them. But there is no way you can prevent a marine team from laming up their start base. It's just not possible.
So stop complaining about how no action was taken earlier, and try thinking about the actual subject of the thread: how to handle a successful marine relocation to a defensible place. And yes, I know it's possible to stop the marines from relocating in the first place, but its by no means guaranteed even if your entire team rushes to meet them at the very beginning.
GET OVER IT <!--emo&:angry:--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/mad.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='mad.gif'><!--endemo--> !!!!!
In any case, all you needed to do is attack with a couple of gorges. Stick cara and adren on them and throw over a few bile bombs, the turrets will fall like flies. Just make sure you keep them behind a wall when theyre not attacking with a fade (or onos saying it was a long game) close. Maybe a couple of lerks for umbra. But yea, bile bomb, it works.
Of course you need to be working as a team. A lone gorge isnt going to be much cop now is it...
- Kar