<b>1. Occupy three hives before you complain. </b>You had 6 onos and control of 90% of the RTs, yet you had 2 hives? Strange.
3 hives = * Cloaking Onos * Charging Onos * Acid Rocket <i>* Web</i> (extremely good anti-heavy) * Primal Scream * Xenocide (I suck with this, but I see players constantly wear down defenses with it)
<b>2. Devour.</b> The only thing that <i>doesn't </i>inexorably die to Lerk spores are Heavies. And since you had 6 Onos, eating heavies wouldn't have been a problem (as mentioned by others, Redemption isn't exactly the wisest upgrade for Onos). After the heavies are down, the skinnies are entertainingly easy to deal with. Regen/Adrenal/Lerk is easily my single most favorite thing in the game, particularly at 2 Hives.
Devour is doubly powerful because it takes a marine out of action for longer than the standard Reinforce timer - aside from being a sexy one-hit-kill.
<b>3. They beat you.</b> This means they left their base. This means it wasn't just a matter of your team not being able to beat their superior tactical positioning, but your team being unable to beat them even in home territory (where you had a bunch of DCs and OCs...wait, you <i>did</i> have a bunch of those...right?.....right!?)
With no heavies around, a single regen onos would've ripped all but the most insane turret farms to shreds. While that may not have stopped the existing HA/HMG/GL force from rampagin the rest of the map, it would've definitely been a wise tactical move once they left their base.
u can devour the ha if u need health <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo-->
You people hop on anti-redempt bandwagons and claim its the reason anyone ever lost.
The point wasn't that we lost it was that we couldn't DO anything. At some points I had my friend and I try fading and blinking around but the end result was the guy with the welder kept us from doing any real damage.
Regen= 2 extra seconds to attack and 5 extra minutes till next run because of gestating.
The problem is aliens can't do anything to heavies at long range without 3 hives. We couldn't get gorges to place dc closer and run in and out real quick because of their sieges. We couldn't wall the vents because ocs do nothing against ha.
I agree the map has issues, but I think the fundamental problem of being all melee vs all range comes in. Yea scream and xeno would have won the game but...
According to the mission statement flayra had with 2.0 was 30 minute games with resources= win as basic premise.
This is obviously not the case for 2 hive (tier 2) aliens.
With welding a marine base with heavies can stay alive basically until they end up winning one way or another, if the aliens don't have 3 hives.
Another thing about redempt. I basically could get 2 attacks in before I would have died or redeemed. How is regen/cara gonna help by giving me 3? By time we get back (less then a minute later) everything is welded up.
If you get two attacks in with redemption you get at least 4 in with regen.
Redemption is good for when you are losing and the Marines have over-expanded. You can run around and take down small outposts and RT's. When you are trying to finish them, you need regen.
Why are YOU complaining? You used the wrong tactics and lost. Yes, Marines that are allowed to tech up will beat 2:hive aliens. 3-hive aliens will beat Marines that are teched up. That's why people reloc to hives.
I was actually in a simmilar but not as far gone situation today, on Caged. Marines had CP and Gen and our (redemption) Onos couldn't do anything. 4 of us ganged up, 3 gorges and 1 lerk, and just rushed in there. Umbra kept us alive long enough to get a lot of bilebombs in before we died. 3 gorges bilebombing does *massive* Damage. MUCH more then 3 cows. Bases go down in no time. Once we were in there other aliens started trickling in, when we were dead half the structures (all the turrets, TF, PG, Armory) were down and the Cow showed up and... it was soon over.
You lost. That's your teams problem, not a problem with NS.
<!--QuoteBegin--Scuzball+Sep 17 2003, 03:38 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Scuzball @ Sep 17 2003, 03:38 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> The TF was built on TOP of the pillars there, making it onos immune.
So they sat up there, armories built on pillars and all, and kept teams of GL spamming the entrances. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> that's very smooth
however I recall an earlier game also with marines turreted up in biodome. In that case the alien team was clearly too stupid to finish the game, they attacked 1 or 2 at a time and there were long breaks b/t attacks; mostly they just camped outside. If our team had better coordination and if no saboteurs had hopped in the comm chair and wasted all the res on shotties we could have broken out easily.
Instead the game dragged out b/c aliens were too dumb to finish us off. Clearly they could not work together, and by and by they began to complain. This is made worse by the fact that sooner or later we lost a lot of our turrets, and our spammers died in our half assed breakout attempts. STILL the aliens could not break in when our base was defended only by lights and like 3 turrets. Someone had spent all the saved up money for a real breakout on shotguns. No end was in sight.
You might say omg biodome reloc is overpow4r since aliens with 2 hives and all the res couldn't break into a base defended only by lights, but trust me, the aliens as a whole were that dumb. I'm sure even acid rocket could not save them. This is only curable by teamwork.
I just want to address the winnable situations and answer any random complainers from those types of games. Eventually the aliens did win with the ninja build hive, teleport in trick (was funny chasing the gorge; that phatty was running a marathon, at least HE knew what he was doing) altho at first the hive was bugged and invulnerable so we couldn't hurt it and the aliens couldn't teleport in. Naturally we blamed the aliens for that <!--emo&:0--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/wow.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='wow.gif'><!--endemo--> but only this time was it really not their fault <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif'><!--endemo-->
One of the problems with that map is that all of the hives are pretty Onos unfriendly. No matter what hive the marines are holed up in, an Onos will need to climb ladders or take elevators to get at their base. Both are slow, "shoot-me-I'm-a-target" processes. This may have been a mostly map-specific problem. Yes, origin is infamous for long endgames with marines holed up in furnace. I have never seen a game with them being a vent, but I suppose the problems are similar.
I agree with the original premise of this thread, and I am ashamed at all you flamers who say "ohh, If you had only done such and such uber tactic, you would have won111"
First of all, 2 hive aliens have 1 effective ranged attack - lerk spikes (this is against buildings) and even that is no match for 1 welder.
Second of all, v 2.0 was supposed to make 2 hive lockdown ineffective. Now a 1 hive lock down is effective. Marines can turtle anywhere, and if the place they choose is a hive, aliens have a very hard time getting them out - even organized.
Third, it doesn't matter how many onos you have, or what abilites they have (regen v. redemption), there are some situations where onos are useless and will either run away or die before they can do dammage. GL spam is the best way to create these situations.
The proposed solution is to make acid rocket a 2 hive ability, which is a very decent solution. It gives the aliens a way to break a 1 hive turtle situation on a map as difficult as ns_origin. Granted, if the rocket was as powerful as 1.4, this would be unballanced, but as it is, it is a very weak weapon unless hit directly. Aliens need a ranged weapon drastically at hive 2, something that can dammage heavies and destroy buildings when there is no other alternative. End of story.
<!--QuoteBegin--Majin+Sep 18 2003, 02:42 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Majin @ Sep 18 2003, 02:42 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> The more I think about it, I would love to see the AR back at hive 2. I think a fade can live with meta at hive 3 <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> I think a fade could live without meta.
Lets scrap it and add something more orginal and defining.
<!--QuoteBegin--Forlorn+Sep 18 2003, 01:49 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Forlorn @ Sep 18 2003, 01:49 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin--Majin+Sep 18 2003, 02:42 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Majin @ Sep 18 2003, 02:42 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> The more I think about it, I would love to see the AR back at hive 2. I think a fade can live with meta at hive 3 <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> I think a fade could live without meta.
Lets scrap it and add something more orginal and defining. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> Amen. Meta is the only hive 2 ability that does absolutely nothing to improve the fade's combat prowess, expand his range of attack options, and increase his ability to fight upgraded marines (And if you say 'Does too!' I'm going to ask how often you use Meat IN COMBAT). I've taken to use Regen fade just so I can constantly heal when blinking, taking damage, etc, and not have to waste stamina...
Yea, i'd say AR back as a hive 2 ability would be a good idea. Makes the fade more accessible, because as it is, until hive three its just a big skulk, and for 50 res... holding out for onos or going lerk are generally more effective alternatives.
I suggest the co-ordinated effort of the COMM CHAIR RUSH... lerk support needed....
Basically get REGENERATION/Celerity ONOS's.... and lerk umbra support.. and RUSH AND ONLY GORE THE COMM CHAIR.. NOTHING ELSE..... once that is done get out of there...
DONT LEAVE AND EXPECT TO LOSE SEVERAL IF NOT ALL THE ONOS..... its worth it if you take out the chair fast.. before the comm see's and drops a replacement (3 onos can gore a chair in like 3 seconds) most comms cannot drop a new one that fast.
Phase 2 is to rush in and gore to death in similar fashion.. the armory.... This equals gl spam USELESS..... from there take out the tf.... and win........
As it has ben said, some hives are neerly impossible for an onos to get near, and if the com chair was built on said pillars... well... onos ain't gona help much. Never mind the fact that it is usually difficult to get any large number of an alien team to work togeather on such a complex plan - especially one that likely involves them being suicidal meat shields to get their team mates further in.
That, and I find that many commanders can tell if the alien team is concentraiting on the chair, and will sneak out a jet packer into a vent to build an auxilary Comm chair (though this happens less now with the sensory chamber's popularity boost, and the resulting SoF) in such an event.
So uh regen or cara onos wouldnt have worked either.
But i seriously question what the hell were you doing to let them get has for their entire team,a TURRET FARM TO HURT ONOS WITH LIGHT DAMAGE,3/3 upgrades and the whole works.....
And it is a MAP PROBLEM.
Also 6 onos with stomp SHOULD have wiped out 8 has with no difficulty....1 onos spamming stomp and a couple of skulks would also have done it.....yes......it is THAT powerful.
And he did mention they were turtled in a hive location....why did you guys ask him to get 3 hives?
<!--QuoteBegin--Majin+Sep 19 2003, 10:07 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Majin @ Sep 19 2003, 10:07 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> "Stab: The fade extends his claws out in front and uses a burst of speed (half blink) to ram them into the target. (Think Blink Swipe all in one)" <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> This is worthless to a skilled fade.
I think AR should be 3 hives but at hive two he should have an attack called "Disable", which hits the marine with a weak swipe for 15 points of damage but knocks the marine's gun out of his hand. The marine can pick it up immediatly, but only if he can find it fast enough.
To make this attack balanced and not cheese, it takes roughly .5 seconds to 'warm' it up, then it executes. If the fade doesn't time it properly, he will be blown away.
Comments
3 hives =
* Cloaking Onos
* Charging Onos
* Acid Rocket
<i>* Web</i> (extremely good anti-heavy)
* Primal Scream
* Xenocide (I suck with this, but I see players constantly wear down defenses with it)
<b>2. Devour.</b> The only thing that <i>doesn't </i>inexorably die to Lerk spores are Heavies. And since you had 6 Onos, eating heavies wouldn't have been a problem (as mentioned by others, Redemption isn't exactly the wisest upgrade for Onos). After the heavies are down, the skinnies are entertainingly easy to deal with. Regen/Adrenal/Lerk is easily my single most favorite thing in the game, particularly at 2 Hives.
Devour is doubly powerful because it takes a marine out of action for longer than the standard Reinforce timer - aside from being a sexy one-hit-kill.
<b>3. They beat you.</b> This means they left their base. This means it wasn't just a matter of your team not being able to beat their superior tactical positioning, but your team being unable to beat them even in home territory (where you had a bunch of DCs and OCs...wait, you <i>did</i> have a bunch of those...right?.....right!?)
With no heavies around, a single regen onos would've ripped all but the most insane turret farms to shreds. While that may not have stopped the existing HA/HMG/GL force from rampagin the rest of the map, it would've definitely been a wise tactical move once they left their base.
<!--emo&::onos::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tiny.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tiny.gif'><!--endemo--> + carap <!--emo&;)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/wink.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='wink.gif'><!--endemo-->
u can devour the ha if u need health <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo-->
The point wasn't that we lost it was that we couldn't DO anything. At some points I had my friend and I try fading and blinking around but the end result was the guy with the welder kept us from doing any real damage.
Regen= 2 extra seconds to attack and 5 extra minutes till next run because of gestating.
The problem is aliens can't do anything to heavies at long range without 3 hives. We couldn't get gorges to place dc closer and run in and out real quick because of their sieges. We couldn't wall the vents because ocs do nothing against ha.
I agree the map has issues, but I think the fundamental problem of being all melee vs all range comes in. Yea scream and xeno would have won the game but...
According to the mission statement flayra had with 2.0 was 30 minute games with resources= win as basic premise.
This is obviously not the case for 2 hive (tier 2) aliens.
With welding a marine base with heavies can stay alive basically until they end up winning one way or another, if the aliens don't have 3 hives.
Another thing about redempt. I basically could get 2 attacks in before I would have died or redeemed. How is regen/cara gonna help by giving me 3? By time we get back (less then a minute later) everything is welded up.
Redemption is good for when you are losing and the Marines have over-expanded. You can run around and take down small outposts and RT's. When you are trying to finish them, you need regen.
Why are YOU complaining? You used the wrong tactics and lost. Yes, Marines that are allowed to tech up will beat 2:hive aliens. 3-hive aliens will beat Marines that are teched up. That's why people reloc to hives.
I was actually in a simmilar but not as far gone situation today, on Caged. Marines had CP and Gen and our (redemption) Onos couldn't do anything. 4 of us ganged up, 3 gorges and 1 lerk, and just rushed in there. Umbra kept us alive long enough to get a lot of bilebombs in before we died. 3 gorges bilebombing does *massive* Damage. MUCH more then 3 cows. Bases go down in no time. Once we were in there other aliens started trickling in, when we were dead half the structures (all the turrets, TF, PG, Armory) were down and the Cow showed up and... it was soon over.
You lost. That's your teams problem, not a problem with NS.
So they sat up there, armories built on pillars and all, and kept teams of GL spamming the entrances.
<!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
that's very smooth
however I recall an earlier game also with marines turreted up in biodome. In that case the alien team was clearly too stupid to finish the game, they attacked 1 or 2 at a time and there were long breaks b/t attacks; mostly they just camped outside. If our team had better coordination and if no saboteurs had hopped in the comm chair and wasted all the res on shotties we could have broken out easily.
Instead the game dragged out b/c aliens were too dumb to finish us off. Clearly they could not work together, and by and by they began to complain. This is made worse by the fact that sooner or later we lost a lot of our turrets, and our spammers died in our half assed breakout attempts. STILL the aliens could not break in when our base was defended only by lights and like 3 turrets. Someone had spent all the saved up money for a real breakout on shotguns. No end was in sight.
You might say omg biodome reloc is overpow4r since aliens with 2 hives and all the res couldn't break into a base defended only by lights, but trust me, the aliens as a whole were that dumb. I'm sure even acid rocket could not save them. This is only curable by teamwork.
I just want to address the winnable situations and answer any random complainers from those types of games. Eventually the aliens did win with the ninja build hive, teleport in trick (was funny chasing the gorge; that phatty was running a marathon, at least HE knew what he was doing) altho at first the hive was bugged and invulnerable so we couldn't hurt it and the aliens couldn't teleport in. Naturally we blamed the aliens for that <!--emo&:0--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/wow.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='wow.gif'><!--endemo--> but only this time was it really not their fault <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif'><!--endemo-->
First of all, 2 hive aliens have 1 effective ranged attack - lerk spikes (this is against buildings) and even that is no match for 1 welder.
Second of all, v 2.0 was supposed to make 2 hive lockdown ineffective. Now a 1 hive lock down is effective. Marines can turtle anywhere, and if the place they choose is a hive, aliens have a very hard time getting them out - even organized.
Third, it doesn't matter how many onos you have, or what abilites they have (regen v. redemption), there are some situations where onos are useless and will either run away or die before they can do dammage. GL spam is the best way to create these situations.
The proposed solution is to make acid rocket a 2 hive ability, which is a very decent solution. It gives the aliens a way to break a 1 hive turtle situation on a map as difficult as ns_origin. Granted, if the rocket was as powerful as 1.4, this would be unballanced, but as it is, it is a very weak weapon unless hit directly. Aliens need a ranged weapon drastically at hive 2, something that can dammage heavies and destroy buildings when there is no other alternative. End of story.
I think a fade can live with meta at hive 3
I think a fade can live with meta at hive 3 <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
I think a fade could live without meta.
Lets scrap it and add something more orginal and defining.
I think a fade can live with meta at hive 3 <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I think a fade could live without meta.
Lets scrap it and add something more orginal and defining. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
Amen. Meta is the only hive 2 ability that does absolutely nothing to improve the fade's combat prowess, expand his range of attack options, and increase his ability to fight upgraded marines (And if you say 'Does too!' I'm going to ask how often you use Meat IN COMBAT). I've taken to use Regen fade just so I can constantly heal when blinking, taking damage, etc, and not have to waste stamina...
Its got splash effect, its a projectile, and its pretty powerful. Its okay for me though if HAs were to cost like, 10 res.
Basically get REGENERATION/Celerity ONOS's.... and lerk umbra support.. and RUSH AND ONLY GORE THE COMM CHAIR.. NOTHING ELSE..... once that is done get out of there...
DONT LEAVE AND EXPECT TO LOSE SEVERAL IF NOT ALL THE ONOS..... its worth it if you take out the chair fast.. before the comm see's and drops a replacement (3 onos can gore a chair in like 3 seconds) most comms cannot drop a new one that fast.
Phase 2 is to rush in and gore to death in similar fashion.. the armory....
This equals gl spam USELESS..... from there take out the tf.... and win........
~Jason
As it has ben said, some hives are neerly impossible for an onos to get near, and if the com chair was built on said pillars... well... onos ain't gona help much. Never mind the fact that it is usually difficult to get any large number of an alien team to work togeather on such a complex plan - especially one that likely involves them being suicidal meat shields to get their team mates further in.
That, and I find that many commanders can tell if the alien team is concentraiting on the chair, and will sneak out a jet packer into a vent to build an auxilary Comm chair (though this happens less now with the sensory chamber's popularity boost, and the resulting SoF) in such an event.
So uh regen or cara onos wouldnt have worked either.
But i seriously question what the hell were you doing to let them get has for their entire team,a TURRET FARM TO HURT ONOS WITH LIGHT DAMAGE,3/3 upgrades and the whole works.....
And it is a MAP PROBLEM.
Also 6 onos with stomp SHOULD have wiped out 8 has with no difficulty....1 onos spamming stomp and a couple of skulks would also have done it.....yes......it is THAT powerful.
And he did mention they were turtled in a hive location....why did you guys ask him to get 3 hives?
BASIC : Swipe
HIVE 1: Blink
HIVE 2: Meta
HIVE 3: AR
<u><b>FADE 2.1</b></u>
BASIC: Swipe
HIVE 1: Blink
HIVE 2: AR
HIVE 3: Stab
"Stab: The fade extends his claws out in front and uses a burst of speed (half blink) to ram them into the target. (Think Blink Swipe all in one)"
This is worthless to a skilled fade.
I think AR should be 3 hives but at hive two he should have an attack called "Disable", which hits the marine with a weak swipe for 15 points of damage but knocks the marine's gun out of his hand. The marine can pick it up immediatly, but only if he can find it fast enough.
To make this attack balanced and not cheese, it takes roughly .5 seconds to 'warm' it up, then it executes. If the fade doesn't time it properly, he will be blown away.