Use The Elephant Gun
Stoneburg
Join Date: 2002-11-11 Member: 8174Members
Join Date: 2002-11-11 Member: 8174Members
<div class="IPBDescription">It's not the shotgun</div> Yesterday, I was victim to a big misuse of weapons on two occasions. The first game we had an Onos problem and someone says "Drop shotguns, they are the best at killing Onos" or something simmilar.
I saw this argument when 2.0 was just released, and seriously, it's one of the most misguided statements made on this forum (well.. not that bad, but it's bad). The shotgun is NOT an onos-killer. Really, it isn't.
Yeah the shotgun deals out decent damage.. if you hit the target.. at close range. Now, the first thing you should realise is that "close range" is not somthing you want to be with an Onos if you can help it. The second thing is that if you've played the game for a while you know that the hitbox on that big cow is actually quite small. About as big as a Gordon Freeman model... hell, it IS a Gordon Freeman model.
Here's how the shotgun vs onos duel usually looks:
Marine fires a shot or two at distance against the approaching cow. Cow is barely scratched. Cow gets closer, shotgunner starts jumping around like on crack trying to hit the cow. The cows "interesting" hitboxes makes that rather ineffective and even if the shotgunner gets a direct hit or two it isn't enough. Shotgunner gets gored and dies. As does his jumping-jack teammate.
This is actually a *good* scenario from the shotgunners viewpoint. More often the long-distance shots are all the guy gets in, then he gets stomped and eaten/gored.
Now, the HMG on the other hand allows you to deal out a HUGE amount of damage while the cow approaches. Twice as much as a shotgun does point-blank (which is a position the shotgun rarely gets to use effectively against an onos). Basically, having a HMG fire at the cow down a hallway, as it approaches, is simmilar to having two shotgunners run alongside the cow shooting it while it runs to get there.
Dropping shotguns against cows is mostly a psychological thing, makes the marines feel a bit more powerful. If you have a decent squad with some LMG's to wear him down as he approaches your shotguns might be enough to scare him off/redeem/kill him, but PLEASE give out HMG's if you really want to get rid of the cow threat, and ask them to *keep their distance*.
Same gaming occasion I also experienced what must have been the worst composed HA squad of all time. I'm dropped a HA to help 3 other HA's set up a siege base on nothing, at the Viaduct hive. I know the aliens have a cow so I ask for a HMG. COM drops a shotgun. I say "We are *really* going to need a HMG, this shotgun won't hold the onos off and the distances there are huge". I'm ignored. Ah well, maybe one of the others have a HMG I think and get over there to help out.
Arrive at viaduct to find that we have *three* Grenade Launchers and me. A cow crawls up from the hive and 1 minute later we're short 4 HA suits. With only one HMG and one GL we would probably have been able to pull it off. I assume that this is the reason they are lowering the HMG cost in the 2.01e patch, people just don't seem to realise it *is* the best gun available on most occasions, and definetely the most powerful one.
I saw this argument when 2.0 was just released, and seriously, it's one of the most misguided statements made on this forum (well.. not that bad, but it's bad). The shotgun is NOT an onos-killer. Really, it isn't.
Yeah the shotgun deals out decent damage.. if you hit the target.. at close range. Now, the first thing you should realise is that "close range" is not somthing you want to be with an Onos if you can help it. The second thing is that if you've played the game for a while you know that the hitbox on that big cow is actually quite small. About as big as a Gordon Freeman model... hell, it IS a Gordon Freeman model.
Here's how the shotgun vs onos duel usually looks:
Marine fires a shot or two at distance against the approaching cow. Cow is barely scratched. Cow gets closer, shotgunner starts jumping around like on crack trying to hit the cow. The cows "interesting" hitboxes makes that rather ineffective and even if the shotgunner gets a direct hit or two it isn't enough. Shotgunner gets gored and dies. As does his jumping-jack teammate.
This is actually a *good* scenario from the shotgunners viewpoint. More often the long-distance shots are all the guy gets in, then he gets stomped and eaten/gored.
Now, the HMG on the other hand allows you to deal out a HUGE amount of damage while the cow approaches. Twice as much as a shotgun does point-blank (which is a position the shotgun rarely gets to use effectively against an onos). Basically, having a HMG fire at the cow down a hallway, as it approaches, is simmilar to having two shotgunners run alongside the cow shooting it while it runs to get there.
Dropping shotguns against cows is mostly a psychological thing, makes the marines feel a bit more powerful. If you have a decent squad with some LMG's to wear him down as he approaches your shotguns might be enough to scare him off/redeem/kill him, but PLEASE give out HMG's if you really want to get rid of the cow threat, and ask them to *keep their distance*.
Same gaming occasion I also experienced what must have been the worst composed HA squad of all time. I'm dropped a HA to help 3 other HA's set up a siege base on nothing, at the Viaduct hive. I know the aliens have a cow so I ask for a HMG. COM drops a shotgun. I say "We are *really* going to need a HMG, this shotgun won't hold the onos off and the distances there are huge". I'm ignored. Ah well, maybe one of the others have a HMG I think and get over there to help out.
Arrive at viaduct to find that we have *three* Grenade Launchers and me. A cow crawls up from the hive and 1 minute later we're short 4 HA suits. With only one HMG and one GL we would probably have been able to pull it off. I assume that this is the reason they are lowering the HMG cost in the 2.01e patch, people just don't seem to realise it *is* the best gun available on most occasions, and definetely the most powerful one.
Comments
A group of shotgunners attacking a "cow" are indeed effective, if they have any skill at all. You speak of psychology, well it works both ways. An Onos with one HMG firing down on it may feel less threatened than two shotgunners running around it. He'll also be more likely to target only one person, and bring him down. Depending on the situation, this might mean the loss of the HMG -- and 20 res.
If you have 30 res, three marines, and one Ono, I'd say three shotguns outdo one HMG any day. I've had a lot of success at killing Onos with shotguns. HMGs seem to redeem Onos a lot more.
The key here being "three Marines". It's not really relevant to compare it with a scenario with 50% more res spent and three times as many people <!--emo&;)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/wink.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='wink.gif'><!--endemo-->
2 LMG's + 1 HMG would be more effective in my opinion. And cost less. About the same damage, but much greater range.
I don't think I've ever died as an onos to shotguns actually. And I've been knifed at least 3 times... staying in HMG fire for more then a second is seriosuly risky health-wise. I'm not saying that shotguns are totally useless against them, but just the idea that you have to get close to kill it should make peopl ethink twice. "Close? To THAT thing?!"
HMG's make cows run away or die, is my experience.
This way and with my perpetual dedication to drop them medpacks I think they are ready to take out any kind of threat pretty fast.
- The shottie opens the way. So he's the first to take the heat and his shotgun at point blank is lethal.
- One HMG stays 4-5meters behind him, because no matter the distance, this babe is *always* effective, unlike the shottie who is a close-range weapon. So putting him a little bit back wont change anything to it's efficiency. He also carries a welder.
- Then comes the GL, because the GL-carrier is the one the team has to protect. He scares big xenomorphs with it's fireballs and fries the little ones. He's the bane of all hives and alien structures so the rest of the team is in fact his bodyguard in most of the trips into infested corridors. He also carries the second welder.
- The second HMG is the rear guard. Because if there's no rear guard, then the squad is almost pretty dead to any ambush aliens may lay down. And I don't wanna see so much rez finish in marinish chili con carne. HMG at rear guard makes fast xeno-steack of any incoming skulks that may have wanted to jump on the back of the GL and may buy enough time for him to provide assistance with a suppressive fire.
My 2cents.
I still consider it the most powerful weapon in the game because I dont really like the shotgun.
I dont know why everybody thinks its so easy to kill with a shotgun, heh I never hit anything with a shottie. <!--emo&???--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/confused.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='confused.gif'><!--endemo-->
Handing out multiple shotguns then sending a group is more effective than handing a marine an HMG and saying to kill an Onos. Which is why I chose 30 res. That's three weapons for three people to act as a team, as opposed to one HMG for one guy and a shotgun for the other, sending them both alone.
The three shotguns can not only take out Onos, but structures as well. Very quickly. And with three of them, there's less of a chance that they'll die or atleast less of a chance they'll die without achieving their objective, etc.
Which is why I, as a commander, usually drop shotguns. Most NS maps aren't full of big areas, but rather smaller corridors. Almost all aliens are melee attackers, so they'll want to close ranks with you fast all the time. You often don't have time to sit and fire at an alien rushing you, but rather must quickly spin around and DO something, fast. Like let off one round and knock out the skulk, or injure an Onos.
Best way I can think of to take down an Onos is with 3 shotties in HA with a whole bunch of normal marines acting as cannon fodder.
Course, the absolute best for almost any situation for rines are 3 shotties, 3 HMGS and 2 GLs all in HA. Not much can take down that type HA train.
you *want* 1 or 2 shotties for anti structure and close-combat....you *NEED* at least 1 hmg for that incoming cow.......my fav onos kill of all time was when with 4 HAs 2 SG and 2 HMG....it was a redem ono (had already redeemed himself 203349834 times)
me (hmg) and the other hmg were shootin him as he can down the upper part of Reactor room....as soon as he got in range he stomped and stunned about 3 of us (was our screw up we were way too close too eachother).....then 2 shottie blasts later from the unstunned SG he died *as* he was redeeming (lag-redem-death)
that was just dumbarsed luck..
now imagine if people would cooperate...see a known REDEM onos.....take a chance and soften it a bit with your HMG....then when it gets close try to dance in front of it for attention while your shotgun palls go for the double dose kill
I know its unlikely because when you see a cow charging you think *SHOOT SHOOT*.......but it just sounds so good <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif'><!--endemo-->
But the main reason, i am sure, is the shotgun beets redemtion, plain and simple, i have been killed by an hmg once as an ono (i devoured the wrong guy, so while i ate a gl, the hmg got me)
no one said anything about making a 6HA-8HA HMG squad that can't take out buildings worth crap
The Best part is that you don't need to all be close to an onos at the same time and generally in the same spot. If a comm is smart he will remind the HMG to follow and try to be to the side a bit aways.....or hell nevermind....that's the MARINE'S RESPONSIBILITY to KNOW to do that as he is long range power of his group
I love it when SGers clump up like morons (and sometimes they have to due to the area....theres quite a few narrow hallways/paths)
weeeeeeeee.....stomped 'rine burgers mmmmm, mmmmm good!
So basically the argument isn't that 'SGs are teh suq' and 'HMG pwn j00', but that mixed arms are usually better then just spamming SGs which happens from time to time.
One lvl3 HMG has a chance of killing the redemption cow. 2 have a *good* chance. Besides, that redemption cow is gonna spend 90% of his time in the hive healing anyway.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Point of my reply was to emphasize teamwork. A single HMG may be more effective than a single shotgun, but the HMG shouldn't be alone.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Yes, of course. But this thread was ment as a debate about the individual guns usefulnes, so that's what I focus on.
Once when I was in HA a cow suddenly appeared around the corner. I crouched and aimed for center mass as he attempted to devour me. Ever since learning about the true cow hitbox, I've been able to kill cows very easily, and this one died in about 3 seconds of fire. It didn't even have time to get a devour in.
A level 3 HMG does more damage than the shotty across all distances. HMG is already an awesome deal at 20 res; I shudder to imagine the number of marine wins on good servers running 2.01e.
A favourite strategy of mine is if I get stomped, to crouch just when the onos is about to devour, and sidestep, all the time firing my HMG. I've caught lots of onos off guard with that, and it can usually result in a kill, if it doesn't have redempt. The main thing when firing is to aim in the centre, for it's small hitbox, usually does the trick.
A HMG has a ROF of 1200 rpm (20 rounds per second) and a damage of 20 per round. (it could be 18 but I'll stick to 20). Thats 400 damage in the space of 1 second. The damage slowly decreases as the distance between target and firer increases. The magazine empties itself in 6.25 seconds of continuous firing.
The HMG takes a long time to reload and slows the user down by a large extent
A shotgun has a ROF of 120 rpm (2 rounds per second) and a damage of 20 per pellet (estimated, could be 16). Each round contains a total of 10 pellets. Thats 400 damage too. The magazine empties itself after 4 seconds of continuous firing. The shotgun takes a long time to reload but does not slow down the much. On paper, the shotgun seems to be as effective as the HMG while costing only half as much!
However, the damage of a shotgun decreaes dramatically at any range in excess of point blank. That means a HMGer will be able to deal much more damage than a shotgunner unless engaged at point blank range, in which case the marine is dead unless he has a jetpack. Even stomp has a longer effective range than the shotgun. That means a shotgunner will be unable to deal any significant damage at an onos so long as it remains at a distance. A 2-hive onos will therefore be able to kill the shotgunner before he deals out any significant damage.
Buy the HMG. Despite being neglected by the community, its really much more effective than its competitor the shotgun.
Thats just my personal opinion, flame it if ya like <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin.gif'><!--endemo-->
There was this one guy who I definately suspected of cheating, but nevertheless still taught me something about how weak the big cow really is... By himself, as a lone HA/HMG I was afraid of him. I was trying to take out the marine buildings on the raised part of Data Core by the tunnel, when HE phased through. I didn't think much of him as I ran behind the pillar to heal up a bit. Once I was ready I ran towards the ramp, and by the time I was half way up I realised I had lost half my health and needed to heal up again (This was in the space of 1 or 2 seconds...). This guy was standing under the hive, on the other side of data core, and had almost killed me in 3 seconds flat... I stayed alive for a good extra couple of minutes using the scenery to block him, but eventually he got me as I tried to jump across the gap and devour him.
In many other games with this individual with impossible accuracy I realised that WHEN the marines actually hit you, you go down FAST. I can handle squads of 4 vanilla marines as a regen/celerity fade, and yet I couldn't handle this guy alone. (and neither could anyone else on my team)
But I digress, the point is that even at long range this single HMG was owning the space cow. Even if you had somebody with "normal" aim, hitting an onos at long range isn't all that hard (its close ranged combat that's tough), and so 2 normal HMGers would have owned me easy (yeah I coulda stomped em normally, but we only had 1 hive remember?)
"nyhahaha" --> <!--emo&::asrifle::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/asrifle.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='asrifle.gif'><!--endemo--> <!--emo&::sentry::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/turret.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='turret.gif'><!--endemo--> <!--emo&::onos::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tiny.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tiny.gif'><!--endemo-->
Come to think of it, there was a gorge healing them, which *may* have screwed it up for the redemption cow. Anyway, they both went down, redemption cow was redeemed but died in the hive, regen cow stayed alive longer but 1-hive cows really aren't a problem to HMG's in any way. No stomp, no umbra.. no more onos. <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo-->
[...]
A shotgun has a ROF of 120 rpm (2 rounds per second) and a damage of 20 per pellet (estimated, could be 16). Each round contains a total of 10 pellets. Thats 400 damage too.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I have conducted extensive rate of fire tests, so I can safely say those numbers are not quite correct. The HMG fires one bullet every .067 seconds, or 15 bullets per second, and the shotgun fires one shot every .67 seconds, or 1.5 shots per second.
Also, if mp_drawdamage displays the correct numbers, the shotgun does 17 damage per pellet at level 0, not 16 or 20.
Heck, if you have the range, a few LMGs that can aim can drive off or kill an onos. I've occasionally caused an onos to redeem with an LMG and pistol with no upgrades, one clip from each. L3 weapon upgrades can mince up an onos using any weapon.
Shotguns are useful, in my mind, for the rapid damage dealing. Yes, you have to be able to aim, so? If you can't aim, it doesn't matter what you are armed with. I've seen _many onos and fades die to shotguns (I think I play too much).
But, get any range, and the shotgun rapidly loses effectiveness. We knew they were going to try a second shotgun rush, since the first one had been overwhelming. Instead of Cargo Bay hive, we got Power Silo hive, and I ran up top to place two OCs. The shotguns couldn't take them out, I didn't even need to healspray, one shotgun rush dead on the floor.
Had they gotten an HMG, it would have been much different.
For the most part, I'm happy with a shotgun. The ability to reload a single shell and fire has saved me a lot of times, when yet another skulk whips around the corner. I've died more than once due to the delay reloading, and while reloading you can't use a phase gate. (Tip of the day, switching weapons stops the reload, letting you use the PG, so get that knife out)
So, each of the weapons has its uses, and situations where its the 'best'. And situations where its definately not the 'best'. Just part of the NS fun.
Yeah, if I'm onos (with regen always), I just attract attention and keep dissapearing around corners until I figure the hmgers have wasted enough bullets for me to charge in with little damage, since they take ages to reload. I've killed groups of 4 hmg heavies doing just that, at hive 1. Just devour whoever can still shoot, and smack around the rest on the reload. With shotguns that can be trickier.
But playing as marine, I'd still rather have an HMG, especially for defending hive areas, where you can take down lots of enemies as they are trying to hop over structures to get to you.
think dod or cstrike for a min (yeah, flame me, like i care). what happens if your whole team goes sniper? you can't advance, and you slowly get pushed back. all thompson/shotgun? you get owned at range. all mg's? you can hold positions, but get destroyed in cqb. the same goes for ns, i know ns is mostly cqb-med, but aliens are mostly melee, so that extra 20 feet of effective range goes a long way.
mixed arms are ALWAYS better than all of one weapon. period. end of discussion. fin. *fat lady sings*
The HMG is clearly superior against aliens, but is very weak against structures. The GL is extremely strong vs. structures. Obviously, if you are going for mixed arms, HMG's should make up the bulk of your force (I prefer 1 GL per squad, then twice as many HMG as SG. The perfect 4-man squad is 1 sg (point man), 1 gl (in the middle, welds most of the time, takes down lame), 2 hmg (1 on either side).
140 res worth of near-unstoppable fury (until they stop welding <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif'><!--endemo--> )
A fun time is we tricked an onos into thinking one guy alone was trying to weld Western Entrance vent shut, but when the onos realized it was too late it was already dead.