Why Can Skulks Be Able To Zip Past 5 Sentry Guns?
Harry_S_Truman
Join Date: 2002-11-21 Member: 9568Members
Join Date: 2002-11-21 Member: 9568Members
<div class="IPBDescription">Worthless Sentry Guns?</div> I think there's a real issue here. I was playing tonight and the Com built a TF and 5 turrets to protect a phase gate. This was early game and the aliens had defence chambers. A skulk comes along while I was building a phase gate, runs past all 5 guns, eats me while building and almost manages to escape.
I have serious doubts about the effectiveness of sentry guns. Too slow to stop skulks (they should MURDER skulks) and too weak against anything else. I can easily wade into 5 or 6 as a fade or onos without fear.
After playing many, MANY games they are what I would consider a huge waste of Marine resources and in no way will they ever pay for themselves for what they cost.
I have serious doubts about the effectiveness of sentry guns. Too slow to stop skulks (they should MURDER skulks) and too weak against anything else. I can easily wade into 5 or 6 as a fade or onos without fear.
After playing many, MANY games they are what I would consider a huge waste of Marine resources and in no way will they ever pay for themselves for what they cost.
Comments
And err... Ah crap, so basically the only class still at heavy risk from turrets any kind would be the vanilla marines <!--emo&???--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/confused.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='confused.gif'><!--endemo-->
The faster classes would get owned if they slowed down however (ie to attack something stationary) so I spose it's not that bad.
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Isn't that a sad fact? Try to run past an Offense Chamber and you'll get owned.
Like I suggested...Sentry guns are worthless as an 'area denial' weapon, which is what I would have thought they were intended for. They really don't have the abiltiy to protect anything. I know as an alien player, I have little to no concern about a TF and a few guns.
it's more of a deterent than a real defence and it helps supplement the firepower of any marines shooting at stuff that comes close.
If the Marines KNEW that the Sentry Guns were ineffective against it's enemies, wouldn't they make changes/adjustments to increas their effetiveness? i.e., faster tracking, more powerful shell, increased armor..etc.
Thank you <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo-->
So you are suggesting that a skulk running through (and I certainly didn't whine...just posted an observation..so don't be an ****) a group of 5 sentry guns is ok? So where does that leave sentry guns? I know where sentry guns have been...I've been around and playing since the first day of release so coloring me a "noob" won't work.
I have serious questions about gameplay and issues with balance and you try to protray me as a whiner?
My suggestions is that SG's should murder skulks and do less so as the evolution tree climbs. I can't belive you could post here with a serious comment that Sentry Guns are "about perfect". Do you really even fear them when you are playing aliens? Which, by the sound of your posts, you must do a lot.
I suppose ignoring this stuff is your idea of helping the community.
Games are supposed to be fun, not frustrating.
Games are supposed to be fun, not frustrating. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
You can't just make the Sentry guns "better". I'm not suggesting that....
I'm suggesting they should be changed all together.
Bilebomb alone makes them pretty much worthless.....
I don't know how, but I do know that as they are they are either just plain worthless or a stupid pain in the <b>look ma, I'm cool, I dodged the swear filter!</b>. Can anyone deny this fact?
I've played both sides countless hours since NS has been released and have never seen SG's as any serious issue for the aliens. For the amount of resources they cost and it is a HUGE amount, (Do any of you even realize that a TF with a few guns costs WAY more than a HIVE?) they are very ineffective.
Besides...why should a skulk be a counter to a sentry gun?
what you want to do is replace the sgs with "OMG GIANT MECHA ONII!!!!11!!!one!!!!" THEY HAV3 L1K3 ROKKET LAUNCHERZ AND CAN L1kE EAT TEH HIVE!!!
just place one or two "OMG GIANT MECHA ONII!!!!11!!!one!!!!" around your base and they'll terminate <b>everything</b> that comes by. After that they charge off and lockdown the bases for you before finally using their laser eyes to turn all the aliens into egg fried rice; infact they're so effective the marine team has their player limit capped at 1.
They're also invincible to bile bomb and eat small children.
A single skulk really has to be able to do *some* damage against a well laid out TF + turrets; say a marine or two or a third of a turret. And after a dozen lives should have been able to pull down virtually any unattended defences (and to last that long it really has to be a good layout of turrets, with the TF electrified). A single marine with comm supplying extra ammo can take out almost any unattended OC/DC defences without dying, I'd say that's a fair balance...
As has been discussed before -- automated or mindless defences that are bulletproof are really, really frustrating as a player. There is a reason WOLs and GL spam are nerfed, and turret farms are hated.
Chris
As for your "Try to run past an Offense Chamber and you'll get owned" comment. This is just not true. Personally I can run past offence chambers and come out with about half health, as is the same for skulks running past a turret base.
Hope that helps, my poor 2 cents.
"...and almost manages to escape."
Almost? What happened? Did, perchance, the sentry guns kill him? Even if they didn't, they would have if he'd actually tried to stick around and eat the phase gate.
Turrets force an alien to stay away from them and any nearby buildings. The fact that a skulk *can* manage to get by them (while still taking damage!) means that they're effective, but not frustratingly so.
Ever play AvP? If, as the Alien, you accidentally entered a room on the wrong side of a sentry gun, you were dead. You heard the turret fire, and you were paste. Frustrating as all get out. NS's turrets, on the other hand, are powerful enough to give you a nasty smack, followed by an "and STAY out!" Which, IMO, is perfect. Nobody wants to play Aliens vs. Turrets; turrets are a delayer and a deterrant, but they are not the be-all end-all. Human response is necessary.
I cannot attack them if there is more than 2. Even at 2, if I do not have regen or carapace (which is very likely since I like redemption) I will most likely not even kill one SG. If there's more than one, I'm dead or have to heal up and then run all the way back there and start chomping again. I lose a good quarter of my life before I even reach a WELL PLACED SG. And god forbid I make it out with leap and celerity when I'm low on health.
Just try setting up a couple SGs yourself in a LAN game. Maybe 3 or so, placed as good as you can. Then go skulk and start your stopwatch. See how long it takes you to take all of them out. I gurantee, it's not quick. Heck, even give yourself a second hive, I bet money you still can't take out 3 well placed SG.
Maybe if you shot about 10 bullets (plus sentry fire) it would have killed the skulk.
I would say turrets are about perfect now. They defend bases long enough until aliens get higher lifeforms. They even fare pretty well against them too. They should not be a case of build them and then that's it. They need marines there to shoot any higher lifeforms or sneaky skulks.
If you have a suggestion, I would post it in the S&I art of the forum <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo-->
I have also been the skulk that leaps in, kills the marine thinking he is safe, and leaps away with 1 or 2 health booking my butt back to the local heal and go, to go back and get into the blindspot of the turret farm.
It is all about placement and skill. Skill of the Comm in placement, and skill of the skulk running through the farm.
So Harry, to respond in a plesant manner about your post, I don't see a problem with the turrets, they provide early defense, late game help, and are a good way to keep a nice line between you and the nasty creatures on the other side.
MORE TURRENTS COMMANDO!!!1!!!!1
Anyhow I thought turrets were there to look pretty while you seige...
Exploiting crappy placement of turrets, using vents, leaping, wallrunning, jumping. As Coil pointed out, AvP and AvP2 give you a fine experience in how to dodge turret.
Most comms, in my experience, haven't really worked out how to use turrets, hence turrets are easy to kill and turret farms easy to break. Even easier when the comm has split his res over 6 scattered mini tfarms instead of 1-2 dirty great big chokepoints.
Sieges at chokepoints stop chambers getting too close, but watch for creeping sensories. Look at the overview map and remember that sensories can be placed which have a radius that'll cover areas all around the tfarm but without actually being in LOS or siege range of it. Skulks use these to get past your cordon, and can then evolve to gorge and drop a DC nest - so that subsequent breakthroughs can be healed up. Once the skulks heal back up, they can evolve to any other life form and visit upon you a most heinous raping.
Turrets are a deterrent, something to make the aliens use their brains and teamplay aggressively against. While they're trying to mangle your chokepoints YOU should be pushing right into their hive.
If I see a commaner build a turret factory at the beginning of the game, I usually sigh and say "we're screwed" cause it's such a huge waste of resouces. Early map, electricity is much more useful for protection and hive 2 blie bomb makes them all but worthless.
I've taken down so many VERY EXPENSIVE turret placements as a gorge, without taking a single hit, that Marines have no way to react to such a thing. Two gorges doing the same thing get the job done rediculously fast.
I highly disagree that these things are "about right". Marine commanders use them because they have no other option. I played a game last night as a marine on the map with the "Furnace" hive. We had the RT, and TF with about 6 SG's and a Phase. 2 skulks, 1 gorge (bile bombing) and lerk (with a Fade showing up when it was pretty much over) took down the "mini-base" so fast that it was impossible to recover. Marines went through the Phase but either got eaten on the other side or someone managed to "stand" on the phase gate to slow us down. So basically, 2 free skulks, one 10 resource gorge and a 30 resource lerk took down a very expensive marine emplacement in about two minutes. Something is not right....
I'm not arguing for "insta-kill" turrets. I'm not arguing for turret vs. aliens. All I'm saying is that the things are not cost effective for what they do, which is very little. You people seem to keep harping on the idea that the current system is fine and that making things too powerful or chaning what we have is what I'm suggestings. No....I'm suggesting that something different is needed. I'm not sure what it is, but I don't see what we have now as working. It's more of a hinderance to do sentry guns than it is a help.
Isn't that what "area denial" is? What structures do you ever need to defend? A resouces tower? Once bile bomb comes into play nothing can save marine resource towers.
Here...case point. Just an example...I'm got getting into strategy here just overall effectiveness.
Give each side 100 resouces to protect an resouce tower. Hive 2 is up so electricity is worthless now. Since any 10 point gorge and take out a 45 point electrifed RT with ease. Have the marines build defenses around the tower and aliens do the same.
Who's tower do you think will fall fastest? I don't even have to illustrate that point.
The aliens could put up 10 OC's or 7 OC's and 3 DC's to back them up if they have defense first.
The marines could put up a TF and 8 turrets or he could electify the TF and put up 5 turrets, but with bile bomb electricity is worthless.
You tell me which is more effective against the other team?
How about something like this.
A sentry gun is no longer a buildable "structure" but rather an object that is carried by a marine.
The commander hands out "sentry gun kits to marines" from a building (armory?) and then the Marines have to carry them into the field and set them up. (Why not? The commander can't just plop down mines anywhere he wants) The Marines in the field can make a much better tactial assesment of where SG's should be placed rather than the com. As commander it's almost impossible to get a feel of the depth of a room and vulnerable points from his top down view. The command just tells the marine what he wants to protect and the marine selects placement of the gun.
Sentry guns are very powerful, (to be used as an area denial weapon) but have limited amount of ammuniton that they can fire. They would cost much more than the 10 resouce points they currently are but wouldn't require some kind of turret factory. Aliens can either "run sentries out of ammo then move into an area" or attack them by other means. ONLY once out of ammunition, they could be reloaded by the commaner by dropping a somewhat expensive "ammo pack" on the sentry. Being a rather unstable object on a tripod and non-mobile, they are fragile and IF the alien is powerful enough it can survive a close encounter and take one out with relative ease.
This is just one idea guys. Just to show that I'm trying to think outside the box here, not just rehash what we have. I still can't belive that any serious player can argue FOR the effectives both in combat value and resource cost that the current system has.
I think the best way of doing it would have turrets cheaper and have a limit on ammount of turrets per TF, areas can be protected easy from lower life froms but they cant farm to stop all life forms.
one thing u gotta take note of is alien res is split, so 1 res for aliens is worth more than 1 res to marines
A GL can quite happily take out a chamber wall in little time too so it's not like the aliens have the big advantage; ocs are mainly for deterring, slowing down and blocking. Anyone who thinks OCs will actually stop the marines coming that way if they really want to is seriously deluded <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo-->
while letting the marines drop the turrets and giving them limited ammo isn't a bad idea it does take some more control away from the comms. If you're a comm with a bad marine or two it's hard enough already without having to rely on them to put up static defences in the right position too ^^
Sentry guns are very powerful, (to be used as an area denial weapon) but have limited amount of ammuniton that they can fire. They would cost much more than the 10 resouce points they currently are but wouldn't require some kind of turret factory. Aliens can either "run sentries out of ammo then move into an area" or attack them by other means. ONLY once out of ammunition, they could be reloaded by the commaner by dropping a somewhat expensive "ammo pack" on the sentry. Being a rather unstable object on a tripod and non-mobile, they are fragile and IF the alien is powerful enough it can survive a close encounter and take one out with relative ease. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
What you are describing does not seem to be a viable structure for the marine side in this two-sided game.
Turrets:
Marine turrets are not meant to be instant death machines, nor meant to be simply powerful enough to be truly self-reliant for any amount of time. They are a <b>marine</b> structure and are subject to the marines' greatest strength and weakness... <b>team work</b> on the part of the marines. They serve the purpose of making the area somewhat less hostile to marines, and as an assist making a proper defense require less marines so more can be on the offensive. This in no way means that there should ever be a time when the marines can "forget" about an outpost. They require a central turret factory, but they can be built in large quantities. Look at the similarities to the marine command structure.
Turrets for marines in NS have the same purpose as shuttle craft in starfleet command: Decoys and bit of extra damage.
Alien turrets are the opposite in several ways. They are self-healing, not dependant upon a central energy source, and self building. They are meant to be set up in several key places and all but forgotten until they are attacked by marines. The turrets cannot be built in huge numbers and as such are a rather weak means of defense against an organised marine unit. Look at the similarities to the alien "command" structure.
As it is, I see no problem with the current turrets.
As a marine, I can remove OCs just fine with a buddy, and I'll die (or come very close) if I'm alone.
As an alien, turrets have killed me plenty of times...and it's the marines problem if they don't check on an expansion once in a while so I don't quickly become a gorge and BB it to heck or find some blindspot as a skulk.