Remeber how TFs used to need obscene amounts of turrets to protect it from skulks?
Well nothings really changed.
As a comm,ive placed turrets aorund a tf(against the wall).So there would be about 3-4 turrets covering the 3 exposed sides of the TF.
2 skulks jsut went ot the same side,and ate the tf.The turrets would be firing,but they werent doing enough damage.
So now,you cant dodge like in 1.04.No,instead,you can siit there with a buddy and eat a tf,while being fired on by 3-4 turrets.
Hell in 3 or maybe 4 trips i could take down a tf while being fired on by 3-4 turrets with hit and run.
Now i dont bother protecting a tf with turrets,unless i know skulks are stupid,and place 2-3 turrets around the room as "Area-denial weapons" which btw they also suck at,and elect the tf.Oh its expensive,but so is 7-8 turrets per TF that cant stop 2 skulks.
Now if i was a marine....and facing 3-4 OCs shooting at me.....
I recently played a game where they stuck 6 sgs, 2 ascs and 2 elec tfs at the double res... Even as a fade it took extreme amounts of blinking in and out just to take the stupid place out and in the end we didn't manage it... between the marines eating our hives and the HAs coming through the phase gate posted at the double res we didn't stand a chance =/
course there was a time earlier in the game we could've took it but someone built an oc while we were mopping up the last bits and... well... the ascs did the rest ^^;
<!--QuoteBegin--Geminosity+Sep 12 2003, 10:02 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Geminosity @ Sep 12 2003, 10:02 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> If you're going to use cost comparisons then remember that that 2nd hive isn't free, it costs 35/40 res so any gorges taking out your rts with bilebome are more like a 45/55 res creature <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif'><!--endemo--> <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> That's not even a fair assesment seeing that hive costs are one time only, unless of course you have to rebuild it, and it's effective for the entire team. It's not like every alien has to contribute to the hive's cost. In comparison to Marine weapon upgrades and cost, alien upgrades and weapons are dirt cheap, as the commander must not only pay for the research but then also pay for the weapons. I don't see gorges having to pay resouces to "evolve" bile bomb.
well MT is a one time magic cost that effects the entire team and upgrades + evolution tend to add up. ok, taking into account that someone else had made the hive; giving up the ability to go a fade and whack pure heck out of your RTs while regening (someone else paid the 30 res for those 3 defence towers and someone else again paid for the 15 res rts needed to really get all this in a reasonable time) it's rare you'll get an un-upgraded gorge so they actually tend to cost somewhere in the region of 12-16 res. Now throw in that you haven't bothered to build a pg there, theres no marines in the area, theres a decent place to actually bb from without getting shredded and the person was either a skulk or gore to begin with (lerk/fade to gorge? bye bye 30/50 wasted res) and yeah, I can see your arguement. After all it's not like the gorge is a specialist who would get utterly frazzled if you even sent one half-way competent marine out to stop them =P
<!--QuoteBegin--Geminosity+Sep 12 2003, 12:51 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Geminosity @ Sep 12 2003, 12:51 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Now throw in that you haven't bothered to build a pg there, theres no marines in the area, <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> Seeing that phase gates fall faster than a TF, the PG is a moot point. It's redicuosly simple to take one down with bile bomb...after which BB everything else with impunity. If all these comments are such viable tactics, why do marines win so very infrequently?
actually I tend to find the games where pgs are built in these minibases <b>and placed well</b> are the ones the marines win. I've never been in a game where the marines win without well placed pgs and if you don't send a marine through to deal with them once they're under attack you deserve to lose them. BBs don't exactly have a wonderful range unless you're higher up and if you're leaving key places with vents in them unprotected and unchecked with marines I don't see why you should expect to keep them. Do you know why most little alien outposts don't go down easy? it's because aliens react to them and get over there, without pgs and with a comm who doesn't pay attention your outpost is the same as an alien one that nobody bothers going to when it's attacked: dead.
I've got to admit we could talk tactics all day but if the marine comm isn't aware of them or up to it then it's the same as having an alien team who doesn't bother with gorges past the initial rt cap rush at the start <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo-->
<!--QuoteBegin--Harry S. Truman+Sep 12 2003, 08:47 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Harry S. Truman @ Sep 12 2003, 08:47 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin--LeetLlama+Sep 11 2003, 04:13 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (LeetLlama @ Sep 11 2003, 04:13 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Sentry Guns don't stop access to an area, they prevent the aliens from holding an area. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Isn't that what "area denial" is? What structures do you ever need to defend? A resouces tower? Once bile bomb comes into play nothing can save marine resource towers.
Here...case point. Just an example...I'm got getting into strategy here just overall effectiveness.
Give each side 100 resouces to protect an resouce tower. Hive 2 is up so electricity is worthless now. Since any 10 point gorge and take out a 45 point electrifed RT with ease. Have the marines build defenses around the tower and aliens do the same.
Who's tower do you think will fall fastest? I don't even have to illustrate that point.
The aliens could put up 10 OC's or 7 OC's and 3 DC's to back them up if they have defense first.
The marines could put up a TF and 8 turrets or he could electify the TF and put up 5 turrets, but with bile bomb electricity is worthless.
You tell me which is more effective against the other team? <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> Based on the fact that BB is the alien siege weapon, then you would expect a GL to attack the alien chamber farm. Neither would take that long to take down.
As for the GL cosing more rez than bilbebome, it is more useful.
If you think that a Tfarm should kill all lower lifeforms on sight and have a chance aginst an onos, then the cost will have to reflect that.
Comments
Well nothings really changed.
As a comm,ive placed turrets aorund a tf(against the wall).So there would be about 3-4 turrets covering the 3 exposed sides of the TF.
2 skulks jsut went ot the same side,and ate the tf.The turrets would be firing,but they werent doing enough damage.
So now,you cant dodge like in 1.04.No,instead,you can siit there with a buddy and eat a tf,while being fired on by 3-4 turrets.
Hell in 3 or maybe 4 trips i could take down a tf while being fired on by 3-4 turrets with hit and run.
Now i dont bother protecting a tf with turrets,unless i know skulks are stupid,and place 2-3 turrets around the room as "Area-denial weapons" which btw they also suck at,and elect the tf.Oh its expensive,but so is 7-8 turrets per TF that cant stop 2 skulks.
Now if i was a marine....and facing 3-4 OCs shooting at me.....
course there was a time earlier in the game we could've took it but someone built an oc while we were mopping up the last bits and... well... the ascs did the rest ^^;
<!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
That's not even a fair assesment seeing that hive costs are one time only, unless of course you have to rebuild it, and it's effective for the entire team. It's not like every alien has to contribute to the hive's cost. In comparison to Marine weapon upgrades and cost, alien upgrades and weapons are dirt cheap, as the commander must not only pay for the research but then also pay for the weapons. I don't see gorges having to pay resouces to "evolve" bile bomb.
ok, taking into account that someone else had made the hive; giving up the ability to go a fade and whack pure heck out of your RTs while regening (someone else paid the 30 res for those 3 defence towers and someone else again paid for the 15 res rts needed to really get all this in a reasonable time) it's rare you'll get an un-upgraded gorge so they actually tend to cost somewhere in the region of 12-16 res. Now throw in that you haven't bothered to build a pg there, theres no marines in the area, theres a decent place to actually bb from without getting shredded and the person was either a skulk or gore to begin with (lerk/fade to gorge? bye bye 30/50 wasted res) and yeah, I can see your arguement. After all it's not like the gorge is a specialist who would get utterly frazzled if you even sent one half-way competent marine out to stop them =P
Seeing that phase gates fall faster than a TF, the PG is a moot point. It's redicuosly simple to take one down with bile bomb...after which BB everything else with impunity. If all these comments are such viable tactics, why do marines win so very infrequently?
BBs don't exactly have a wonderful range unless you're higher up and if you're leaving key places with vents in them unprotected and unchecked with marines I don't see why you should expect to keep them.
Do you know why most little alien outposts don't go down easy? it's because aliens react to them and get over there, without pgs and with a comm who doesn't pay attention your outpost is the same as an alien one that nobody bothers going to when it's attacked: dead.
I've got to admit we could talk tactics all day but if the marine comm isn't aware of them or up to it then it's the same as having an alien team who doesn't bother with gorges past the initial rt cap rush at the start <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo-->
Isn't that what "area denial" is? What structures do you ever need to defend? A resouces tower? Once bile bomb comes into play nothing can save marine resource towers.
Here...case point. Just an example...I'm got getting into strategy here just overall effectiveness.
Give each side 100 resouces to protect an resouce tower. Hive 2 is up so electricity is worthless now. Since any 10 point gorge and take out a 45 point electrifed RT with ease. Have the marines build defenses around the tower and aliens do the same.
Who's tower do you think will fall fastest? I don't even have to illustrate that point.
The aliens could put up 10 OC's or 7 OC's and 3 DC's to back them up if they have defense first.
The marines could put up a TF and 8 turrets or he could electify the TF and put up 5 turrets, but with bile bomb electricity is worthless.
You tell me which is more effective against the other team? <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
Based on the fact that BB is the alien siege weapon, then you would expect a GL to attack the alien chamber farm. Neither would take that long to take down.
As for the GL cosing more rez than bilbebome, it is more useful.
If you think that a Tfarm should kill all lower lifeforms on sight and have a chance aginst an onos, then the cost will have to reflect that.