Speed
Towers
Join Date: 2002-01-26 Member: 100Members
Join Date: 2002-01-26 Member: 100Members
<div class="IPBDescription">How fast is the gameplay</div>Ok i had never thought of this before up until recently when i decided to download a mod for Quake 3 called Invasion.
Now it was a fairly decent mod (although i couldn't play it online as there were no servers) but i played it with bots. The first thing that jumped out at me and he me like a wet fish on a cold monday morning was the speed of the game.
The speed of that game ruined what could of been a very enjoyable game. It played like quake with new levels and skins. I just wanted to know will the speed on NS be slower than Quake 3(I know it is faster than HL anyway) And comparing to Half-life how fast will the marines and aliens be able to move.
Now it was a fairly decent mod (although i couldn't play it online as there were no servers) but i played it with bots. The first thing that jumped out at me and he me like a wet fish on a cold monday morning was the speed of the game.
The speed of that game ruined what could of been a very enjoyable game. It played like quake with new levels and skins. I just wanted to know will the speed on NS be slower than Quake 3(I know it is faster than HL anyway) And comparing to Half-life how fast will the marines and aliens be able to move.
Comments
Whats wrong with quake? Isnt this supoused to be a "lots of aliens attacking" mod? Then quake3 is the reference. If this is a "do lots of structures and camp behind a crate" mod, then look at CS, but i wont be playing your game then.
"NS is planned to be slower then regular HL. This adds to the stratergy element"
ROFLMAO! How can you say that, slowness doesnt increase strategy IN ANY WAY, it only gives you more time to think which means less skill requiered. Slow movement means that even newbies can play strategicly cause they've got time to think, thus good players can take less advantage from thinking. Try to play Q3 with g_speed 240 and if you think its fun or strategic then tell me cause i'd laugh a lot.
"super-high-speed action in games like Q3"
q3 is not a super-speed game in any way, accels are very low compared to those in other games (q1, q2, tribes...) and still they have more strategy, by far, than q3 (and obiously CS, where the amount of different situations that can be given on a match are less than 20).
Quake 3 is good at what it is, A deathmatch mayhem sort of game, it's very fast and is good for it. NS should have a hell of a lot of tension to make it a great mod. Slowing the marines down and making it alot slower than quake 3 will help this a bunch.
I have been crouching behind a crate holding my AK with 4 CTs coming, im the last man standing and they dont know i'm there. I have my chance to kill them if i can kill the first two really fast and then spray&pray. THIS IS TENSION.
I have also been defending q3dm7's RA alone against an incoming quaded plasmagunner, if i can hit the first rail i might have a chance (omg i'm so bad at railing). If i kill it then my team will be able to regroup on RA and we will have 2 mins to equip till the next quad spawns. THIS IS TENSION TOO.
Play invasion and tell me what you think.
www.planetquake.com/invasion
<!--EDIT|MonsieurEvil|Feb. 16 2002,23:17-->
ROFLMAO! How can you say that, <b>slowness doesnt increase strategy IN ANY WAY, it only gives you more time to think which means less skill requiered.</b> Slow movement means that even newbies can play strategicly cause they've got time to think, thus good players can take less advantage from thinking. Try to play Q3 with g_speed 240 and if you think its fun or strategic then tell me cause i'd laugh a lot.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span id='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Now, I'm not trying to be rude here, but do you even know what strategy is? Strategy and thinking are very closely related. The more time you have to think, the better a strategy you can flesh out. And skill will be a very important part of this mod. When the marines are moving slower than the aliens, there's a whole lot of skill necessary to stay alive, and that skill is being able to think strategically. And if you can't think strategically as a marine, then your deathmatch skills won't help you. A single marine will have a hard time against a single alien (even harder if the alien is evolved to at least level 3), and one marine vs. two aliens is almost certainly an alien victory.
You have been rude. From now on i will have the impression that you will ignore all my comments no matter how good they are because you think i am stupid.
"Strategy and thinking are very closely related"
Yup, and the longer the timelimit for thinking you have, the less skill it takes to find good tactics. I've played AoK a lot (in fact, i have played competitively most of multiplayer games you can think of) and there you have plenty of time to think but your strats aren't any better because of that, instead, you just apply pre-memorized strats that someone else wrote. You think "im flushing, 12th and 13th vilager go to wood, 14th builds the house...", and the credit goes for matty cause he invented the flush and wrote it for you.
I have also played turn based strategy games like Heroes (2 and 3), there the time you have got to think is OBSCENE, it takes all the skill out of the game. I can be very good and i can prepare a strat in 30 secs, and lets say my enemy is dumb: he can prepare the same strat but by using 5 mins, great gameplay! :D
"The more time you have to think, the better a strategy you can flesh out"
Nope, the more time you have to think, the less inteligent you have to be to obtain a given strategy.
"When the marines are moving slower than the aliens, there's a whole lot of skill necessary to stay alive, and that skill is being able to think strategically."
Hmm, i had not thought about it before, but if you don't give the marines a chance to escape an alien, then marine's strategy will be staying together (which is the form of teamplay which requieres less skill, thats why its called camping) and spamming (which is the form of shooting that takes less skill, no aim requieres, only lots of ammo).
The only good thing about spam is that a good alien CAN dodge spam, but again, we are giving all the skill to aliens while marines will only be builing things (no skill required), spamming entrances (no skill required) and obeying the commander's orders (no thinking needed, no skill required).
In fact i "play" as coach in q3 very often (i'm my clan's coach :D) and also have SC/AoE experience so i'm very excited about the commander mode, which seems to be the only place in which a marine can use all his skills in a useful way.
"And if you can't think strategically as a marine, then your deathmatch skills won't help you."
Why? Your commander thinks for you, he tells you to spam X door while a teammate builds a structure and then he tells you to attack X hive, you only have to dodge and fire, which still takes lots of skill but has nothing to do with strategy.
"A single marine will have a hard time against a single alien"
This promotes marine camping even more :(
And remember, it takes more skill for a team to coordinate their moves separatedly (qw, q2, tribes, tf...) than together by camping (cs, q3 and other sucky games).
Chess?
how the shiznit can u make teamwork to be camping???
camping: someone or someones are sitting in each of the four corners in a room, guarding same place, shooting wildly into that direction if something is spotted..
teamwork: checking corners two-by-twos, boosting eachothers into vents, covering a building marine while he completes a tower, protecting the flanks and rear of an attacking squad.
u have no idea what ur talking about, and when it comes to what u've played.. well, who gives a ****.. u aint the only one that played all those games and u obviously dont know what skill is.
skill is in fact mostly experience, in order to forsee someones movement, u must know the moves he CAN make, and the probability to execute more difficult moves. U can NEVER just go inte a completley new game, knowing all, and thus, u lack skill and experince. take CS.. that is 60 % experince. if u know the map, u have alot of a better chance to survive and if u know all the hiding spots, its just a matter of time before u win.
And yes, i've also played chess and it happens to be the game which generates more permutations despide of being in a discrete dimension, there are lots of things we have to learn from chess in the gaming comunity.
Kepp in mind that chess without a timelimit is a totaly sucky game <!--emo&:D--><img src="http://www.natural-selection.org/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif" border="0" valign="absmiddle" alt=':D'><!--endemo-->
I don't agree on most of the things you say but I'm not going to waste my time writing here just to read you sayig that i'm stupid again.
I don't care what speed NS will be running at, besides quake 3 isn't fast at all, play UT set on harcore or turbo and gamespeed at 200%, then you'll knwo what fast-paced action is.
Cs is more realistic than quake in every way including speed, People can't run as fast as they do in quake 3 especially with those guns you have. I think NS is going for realism in a sci fi way. That is why it will be slowed down compared to Quake 3.
Actually, I agree with almost everything said here, on "both sides". I think there's a slight miscommunication in terminology.
IMHO, most FPS games are too fast to promote strategy or coordination. Now I'm not saying that no one can do it, because you Quake and Tribers CAN do it. You do it all the time in tournies, and it's damned impressive. With lots of practice, great reflexes and dedication, a team can be very coordinated in a game, of any speed. The difference here? NS hopes to bring teamwork, coordination and strategy to the "average" player. People who aren't Thresh (or possibly Huan).
The way we do this is to allow both the marines and aliens to increase their power and effectiveness both through high-level strategy (building, resources, scouting, upgrades) and low-level tactics (aim, intuition, listening skills, reflexes, coordination). Both sides can use both of these to gain an advantage, but they are on different ends of a continuum. The marines will tend to be more high-level, and the aliens will tend to be more low-level. The aliens will still benefit greatly from teamplay and the marines will still benefit greatly from reaction speed and reflexes, but everything about each side is biased towards it's main type of gameplay.
As far as player speeds, you can guess how the breakdown works. The marines tend to be slower, and the aliens tend to be faster. This is also why the marines have overwatch. It's to allows all marine players to achieve a base level of weapon proficiency.
For the strategy side, the marines get the commander. They have the biggest potential for coordination. The aliens have hive sight, which allows them to be well-coordinated without having to type or send radio commands to each other.
Speed-wise, NS should be both the fastest game out there, and the slowest. A level 1 alien with full speed is faster then anything you've ever seen. A marine loaded down with weapons and ammo won't be going anywhere without dropping something. <!--emo&:)--><img src="http://www.natural-selection.org/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif" border="0" valign="absmiddle" alt=':)'><!--endemo--> I hope this clears up things a bit.
Here's how I view speeds (various levels and times not factoring in one-hit weapons or explosives)
Quickest aka realistic- DOD, once someone pulls the trigger and doesn't misses you're gone. Example: Call of Cthulhu (Cthulhu eats you)
Quick aka Heroic- After you've been hit, you're hurting majorly but you could still make it. You know you're under attack and maybe if your lucky you'll see the person. Example: Legend of the Five Rings (you can survive a good hit with a katana but you're not going to do much else for a week)
Standard- You usually can take some bullets and can retreat if a fight does not go well. Longer battles
Example: Shadowrun (as long as you don't go munchkin)
Slow- You're able to take huge amounts of damage and don't feel a thing. You're a Gundam (my phase for anything excessivly powerful till the point of pure munchkinism). Example: High level D&D and electronic RPGs
Also the best statregy game I;ve heard is Diplomacy. Unlike chess and other mainstream games, you don't have fight, fight, fight and run over everything. Turns take a long time because you have to actually <i>talk</i> to other players, sometimes in sercet. Thankfully you've never see it online. The longest games are play-by-mail games.
Anyway i had to write here thanking flayra for writing my name next to thresh's <!--emo&;)--><img src="http://www.natural-selection.org/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif" border="0" valign="absmiddle" alt=';)'><!--endemo-->
And I'd just like to comment on one thing Huan said... He mentioned something about the Marines moving slower causing them to stick together which leads to 'camping'.
This is intended. The only way the Marine team can survive is through this tactic.
"This is intended. The only way the Marine team can survive is through this tactic. [camping]"
Sad to read that <!--emo&:(--><img src="http://www.natural-selection.org/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/sad.gif" border="0" valign="absmiddle" alt=':('><!--endemo--> i tought there was already a HL mod designed by and for campers.
"the players ultimately choose the game speed"
Yes and no, when a player has a certain skill he discovers what tactic is the most effective to win and sticks to that tactic, if marine camping is the most effective tactic then you will see all the marines camping allways, thus all the speed will be lost (camping promotes more camping, see cs_assault on pubs).
Camping is such a great tactic at counterstrike, because the round is over when everyone is dead, or when the mission is succeeded. In clan games, this is important, but in public servers this is worth nothing, people go for their own scores. So when they camp, they get to shoot a lot of the enemy, and then they win (or the team loses, but face it, nobody cares). In a game of NS, when a player/group camps, the enemy will know where they are after they are killed two times in the same spot. This is the ideal thing they want to have: they have 2 advantages: 1. they can easily set up an ambush, killing the marines, and 2. they can leave the camping ####### sitting their, while they go and destroy the commander console. A marine camping a spot, and all the aliens knowing it is there, is not a real good tactic (when an alien sees a camping #####, all aliens see it and know where it is).
Only someone who is afraid camps.
They are afriad of turning the corner and having bob right in their lap before they even get a step down the corridor.
They are afraid that if they go off away from the group then they wont survive.
They are afraid that in order to kill an alien you need at least a hallways length to fire at it and more than 1 marine.
It all boils down to fear gentlemen, if you dont fear the aliens down that corridor you wont sit and wait for them, its absurd to think that camping will win games of NS givin that the longer you wait the more hives will spawn and the more aliens there will be running down that corridor, but, fear is very short sighted, when ones life is on the line you think in the here and now only, Did I survive that attack? good.
Will i survive the next one?
If youve ever played a marines vs aliens version of AvP, holed up in the little bunker on Stranded at 4 in the morning, youll know that what could be mistaken for camping in other games is just an attempt to save your ### and cover the objective for the team.
If youre waiting for reinforcements and are hiding behind a box, will this be camping? Who knows. There will be some who will tell you to stand up and fight, others who will encourage your behaiviour. And yet you must not forget that deaths cost resources, and that running in like Rambo isnt always the best way to stay alive <!--emo&:)--><img src="http://www.natural-selection.org/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif" border="0" valign="absmiddle" alt=':)'><!--endemo-->
And I remain behind, guarding (camping) the bomb. Now, if I was afraid, would I be telling the only backup I have to go away? (And more often than not, they die, I remain, the T's find the bomb, and I kill 'em. <!--emo&:)--><img src="http://www.natural-selection.org/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif" border="0" valign="absmiddle" alt=':)'><!--endemo--> )
Camping is a -tactic-. Often times a necessary one. As it will be in NS. Though not quite in the way you might be thinking. The marines will be 'moving campers'. They'll camp, covering a guy as he moves forward a bit, then that guy will stop, and camp, as another guy moves forward.
Why is this necessary? Because in many of the locations in the map, the aliens could be coming from any one of about ten different locations. En masse.
So you've got one Bob from one vent, one Bob from another, another coming from behind that pipe on the ceiling, a guy trapped in a web built by a builder, and a class 4 bouncing off the walls coming down the hall way -just- before it blinks and skewers your buddy. If you aren't moving slow, and covering every possible entrance, you're dead meat. The whole squad is.