Minstrel_KnightThe truth and nothing but the truth...Join Date: 2002-11-21Member: 9562Banned
edited August 2003
<!--QuoteBegin--SinSpawn+Aug 28 2003, 02:54 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (SinSpawn @ Aug 28 2003, 02:54 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin--Pa1adin+Aug 28 2003, 08:44 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Pa1adin @ Aug 28 2003, 08:44 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Exploit <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> totally <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> I find it difficult to follow the logic in this line of thought when in 1.x the phase did not work/marine teleported in and got stuck in you, and seeing as this was <i><b>extremely</b></i> common knowledge if this was an exploit you would expect the team to change it so aliens got telefragged in 2.0 when standing on a phase like on IPs. So the evidence seems to suggest that this is a feature not an exploit.
<!--QuoteBegin--Minstrel Knight+Aug 28 2003, 10:40 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Minstrel Knight @ Aug 28 2003, 10:40 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->I find it difficult to follow the logic in this line of thought when in 1.x the phase did not work/marine teleported in and got stuck in you, and seeing as this was <i><b>extremely</b></i> common knowledge if this was an exploit you would expect the team to change it so aliens got telefragged in 2.0 when standing on a phase like on IPs. So the evidence seems to suggest that this is a feature not an exploit.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> That's the way I felt about the issue also, however, like I said, and like the response of half of the people who have replied, people claim it is an exploit. I'd really like to get this straightened out before I end up getting banned from a server for doing something that I consider to be a legitimate strategy.
I wish we could get a developers word on this, to put this to rest..
How is it an exploit? I think it rather helps marines <!--emo&???--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/confused.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='confused.gif'><!--endemo-->
i believe its a necessary evil, it either telefrags everyone or it telefrags no one. It's certainly not a "feature"
Flayra opted to have it telefrag everyone. Personally on our server we have a rule that pretty much everyone abides to without question, that you do not step on the PG if you are an alien, and just bite it from the edges.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->i believe its a necessary evil, it either telefrags everyone or it telefrags no one. It's certainly not a "feature"<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
If it only telefragged aliens we'd all be happy. Also in 2.01d, you can just waltz into any base without an obs and just stand on the pg cloaked until your buddies arrive.
<!--QuoteBegin--ZERG!!+Aug 28 2003, 10:58 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (ZERG!! @ Aug 28 2003, 10:58 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->i believe its a necessary evil, it either telefrags everyone or it telefrags no one. It's certainly not a "feature"<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
If it only telefragged aliens we'd all be happy. Also in 2.01d, you can just waltz into any base without an obs and just stand on the pg cloaked until your buddies arrive. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> Yes I realize thats the ideal solution and so does Flayra I'm sure, but for whatever reason it doesnt work that way, Im willing to bet its cause he couldnt figure out a way to get it done.
And if you sit on a PG cloaked you would get banned from our server, posthaste. Standing on it period is lame, but dude.
Exploit? No, I think it's working as intended. Changes needed? Yes, I'd say so.
Completely blocking usage means that once the aliens reach a vacant phase, marines lose that battle by default -- a lone skulk can block access of 6 HA/HMGs. While I understand the emphasis placed on having marines guard their phases, this seems like too much of a dreaded "hard counter". Compare it to a "soft counter", where the aliens would gain a significant advantage from being on the phase yet still allow the marines a chance if they hold enough other advantages.
Whenever someone used a phase in 1.0x, a check would be performed to see if there was anything standing on the other destination phase. If there was, the person/alien would be telefragged. If two people used the phase at the same time, they would both arrive at the same moment and become stuck inside one another, immobile. 2.0x phases are very similar, except that instead of telefragging they will instead deny access. Simultaneous usage still results in becoming stuck.
The way I would envision phases to have a "soft counter" would be to tweak two aspects of the phase. One, phases would only deny access if there was a <i>marine</i> standing on the other phase. An alien standing on the phase would not directly affect usage. Two, phases would <i>never</i> telefrag, friend or foe. <b>If a marine arrives on a phase that an alien is standing on, they become stuck in one another.</b>
It's undeniable that in the great majority of cases, it's a very bad idea for marines to go point-blank with aliens. To remain immobile at that range would virtually guarantee a quick death. Since warping onto a "hostile" phase puts marines into that exact situation, the result is a "soft counter" being created. Protecting the phase would still be very important, since failure could result in marines being fed one by one into a meat grinder. Yet if the marines possess overwhelming forces ready to phase, they will still be able to defend their phase.
That lone skulk sitting on the phase in the previous example would be torn to shreds by the first HA/HMG who came through. A lone Onos could easily devour the first HA/HMG who came through, though the other 5 would quickly wear him down to nothing. Two Oni sitting in umbra with Gorge support, however... meat grinder.
I think it should telefrag aleins. Hell, if an alien is stupid enough to stand on the pg knowing full well that if a marine comes through that the alien would die, then I dont think they would want to stand on the pg. I agree with the last poster in that it should keep you from phasin if a marine is standing on it becuase there are times when a marine goes through and wants to go to the next one and has to wait while another marine wants to go through, then telefrag time.
I do believe this is a cheap way to block a pg, not nessecarily in 2.0, but in 2.01d now with walking cloak, yeah it's cheap. When I comm, I dont want to have to put an obs at every outpost, especially when I need the res.
If a commander places a phase gate in the middle of nowhere, with no surrounding sentries, this is done at his/her own risk. There is no problem here with a single alien walking in and standing on the phase gate to block it. Its part of the gamble.
If the commander decides to set up some automated defenses around the phase gate, however, aliens standing on the phase no longer become an issue. Even if one walks in cloaked and parks itself on top without the turrets noticing, marines will soon realise that this phase gate no longer works and will simply ask the commander to scan it - therefore revealing the alien to the turrets.
This change was obviously made on purpose - if it wasnt it would not exist - and went through months of playtesting. If this was considered an exploit / unfair, I think the playtesters would have noticed.
Sorry but if it isn't an exploit then the is team encouraging turret farming. And with the light damage it will be even worse if this 'feature' stays in.
This happens so often to me that if I manage to get two hives then I immeadiately halt ALL expansion until I have at least 10 turrets in each hive as any less than that is simply shrugged off by an onos. Yes it causes many complaints that 'marines can't finish' but the fact is a single onos can easily cost me 100's of res and alot of game time in a very short time.
If you want this 'feature' to stay don't expect any even moderately short marine wins.
<!--QuoteBegin--THE_DuFfY+Aug 29 2003, 06:42 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (THE_DuFfY @ Aug 29 2003, 06:42 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> If the commander decides to set up some automated defenses around the phase gate, however, aliens standing on the phase no longer become an issue. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> Ahh, but it IS an issue my friend. The "lone skulk" was an example; hyperbole to demonstrate the extreme situations that hard counters can create. Let me give a more feasible picture:
Marines have an outpost at a hive. It consists of a PG (15 res), an RT (15 res, producing income), TF (15 res), and 6 turrets (60 res). Total: 105 res. The location holds great strategic significance, obviously. There is normally a LA marine guard there, but he had to run through the phase to defend elsewhere, or maybe he's getting ammo, or maybe he's been killed, or maybe he's lagged out... take your pick.
A small group of aliens seize the opportunity. A skulk and two gorges make a beeline for the PG. The skulk stands on the phase and begins chomping. The gorges stand on either side of him at an angle -- they can spray and heal all 3 at once, faster than they receive turret damage.
Moments after the attack begins, several marines try to use the other phase. They're equipped with shotguns and HA, more than enough to deal with the 20-res threat. Can they warp to their outpost and defend it? Nope, not a chance.
Well, seems that people say that either this is an exploit or tactics...personally I feel that it's pretty much an exploit/bug as well...
If you for instance had a commercial game out there with a similar problem I can guarantee that there would be a patch that would fix that problem for the sake of game balance.
Thing is that you have to have some boundries set up in any game. Just because someone discovers something which can be exploited doesn't mean that it should become a valid tactic to use. Granted, it can happen on some rare occation that you discover things which actually wouldn't hurt if they remained in the game. But this isn't one of those rare occasions. PG's are there for a purpose. If the aliens don't like a PG coming up then they either should prevent it from being built or destroy it when they get the opportunity. That's it. They shouldn't be allowed to disrupt the PG's functions in any way.
Besides, does any of you really think that Flay and co intended to make the PG blockable in the first place?
<!--QuoteBegin--Skyrage+Aug 29 2003, 03:02 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Skyrage @ Aug 29 2003, 03:02 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Besides, does any of you really think that Flay and co intended to make the PG blockable in the first place?<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Well, it IS in the 2.0 changelog...: -- o Infantry portals and phase gates now check to be sure there is room for spawning-players when placing them.
Though, I guess the Infantry portal checking was removed, as I have been telefragged both as alien and marine from Inf portals.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->-- o Infantry portals and phase gates now check to be sure there is room for spawning-players when placing them.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I do believe that is referring to when actually placing the building as a commander. Since before you could place a phase gate or IP in a place with a low ceiling, so marines coming in would get their heads stuck in the ceiling and have to /kill or /stuck. Now trying to build in a low clearance area would give you the red "can't build here" building when trying to place it.
Perfectly legitimate, IMHO. Think of it this way: if a single marine sneaking into a good location can build a phase gate there, why shouldn't a single alien be able to block that thing?
Also, defend the phasegate properly. I've taken out phasegates with an observatory, tf and five turrets nearby, as a gorge without any backup. Reason? Bad turret placement. I could sneak up to the phasegate without being in line of sight of most of the turrets, once next to the phasegate only two turrets could shoot me, and when I built on the gate those started tracking the OC. 2 more OC's and that outpost started to go down. 44 res total (the 4 is for personal upgrades).
40 res against a tf, 5 sentry guns, phase and obs? Overpowered? Not at all. I've taken out double res nodes with more turrets as a zero-res skulk because the tf wasn't electrified, and the turret placement was bad. If you don't defend a base properly, expect to lose it when a clever alien spots the weakness. Don't want to lose a phasegate to an offence chamber built on it? Invest in sieges. Or you could just get someone to guard it permanently.
It seems to me that people want a zero-cost method to defend phasegates from anything but a rush from many aliens at once. All the benefits without any drawbacks. Forget it. If you want to counter those blocking tactics without having someone to guard the phasegate and with bad turret placement, it's going to cost you some res.
Building in vents is one thing...preventing the function of a building altogether without actually attacking it is another...in that case one could ask for a new alien (or marine) ability like "stasis" or something which temporarely disables buildings...but that would of course never happen right?
I find building sieges ect. in vents completely ok though. There is room there (more or less <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif'><!--endemo-->) so sure...build ahead. There's nothing that's really obstructive and in some cases it's even a high-risk to build in vents.
All I know that it's cheap and definately isn't a "feature" more like "side effect." <!--emo&;)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/wink.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='wink.gif'><!--endemo-->
<!--QuoteBegin--Tempus+Aug 29 2003, 08:53 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Tempus @ Aug 29 2003, 08:53 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Not an exploit, but good strategy.
Phase gates are extremely powerful, and if the marines really care about protecting it, they would put up some turrets.
I would be surprised if anybody other than a n00b complained about this.. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> Yeah what a good idea guard the Phasegate, guard this guard that. Ohh no marines left for attacking, thats bad luck. By the way i also can't block movment Chambers
It's not an "exploit" per sé, since the disabling of phasegates this way was intended. It just happens to be very overpowering and somewhat stupid. Here's what I said in another thread:
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> I've found the PG's to be less then reliable means of transportation, or more iportantly, backup. The reason is simple, a single alien can disable it by standing on it. This makes alone phasegates 100% useless since any half-witted skulk can just sit on it and chew away, which is ok. It however alos makes outposts that *are* defended quite vulnerable...
Unless you want to spend a truly *obscene* amount on resources securing a position (which right now usually isn't an option for Marines most of the time), you will probably lose it if it is more then a short run from base. Why? Because it is almost impossible to protect that oh-so-vital phasegate.
Protect it with turrets you say? Most of the time you end up with a cow standing on the phasegate *while* taking out the TF and turrets. Which is why I tend to buold the PG far away from the TF so they at leats have to *chose* whether to deny reinforcements or take out the current force (turrets).
Don't let them get onos then! Fair enough. But with Umbra, even a skulk can stay alive long enough, sitting on the PG in the middle of the turrets, chewing it.
Well deny them a second hive! Ok then, but a group, actually just two or three gorges with one fatty on the PG and the other(s) healing him will do it too, and a skulk can eat the TF, PG or whatever he likes.
So far the latest attempt has been to put the TF really, really close to the PG and electrify it, to negate the umbra. This of course makes it super-vulnerable to the higher class of aliens that aren't too bothered by electricity.
It just seems like too much effort has to go into this at the moment, for and already stretched, battered and frustrated Marine team. It also doesn't seem 100% reasonable when compared to the IP's. Right now, the thing I fear most as cow is IP's! (well, not really, but they are pretty scary). Why? Because if I slip or lag while goring it, chances are that a Marine will spawn and telefrag me. Now, couldn't this be applied to the Phase Gate (again) as well? I really think it is needed, since PG's are such a vital part of (many) Marine strategies, it doesn't seem right that they can be so easily negated by Aliens regardless of hives or resources. I think that PG's being "allowed" to telefrag the same way as IP's do is a very easy fix to this conundrum.
Ps. Before you say "You need to keep Marines at your outposts" consider that the whole *point* of the PG is to *not* have to have stationary Marines everywhere, not to mention it is impossible on smaller servers.
edit: Forgot to add that dropping a chamber on it will of course also work. I probably forgot this because I think it is a somewhat "legit" way of doing it.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Since then I have realised that:
- Making the game distinguish between who to telefrag is probably hard/impossible. Meaning that most likely, either both Marines and Aliens get telefragged or noone.
- A "bump" would fill almost the same purpose (except it wouldn't make Aliens cautious).
So now I advocate that the current function (or lack thereof) is replaced with a /stuck simmilar "bump" that pushes whatever blocks the PG a bit to the side.
This has got to be the most legit "exploit" I've ever seen.
If you argue that it's an exploit, you obviously don't know all your options as a marine commander. If you did, you'd know that you have plenty of ways to overcome this tatic if you simply do a tiny miniscule amount of planning (just like anything else in the game). One pack of mines, coupled with your normal turrets will keep that phase clear of anything except onos or 2-hive aliens.
With 2-hive aliens, it takes <b>teamwork</b> to block the phase and kill the TF. Why do you think you several aliens working together, who have already secured a second hive, should be countered by one lone phase gate?
<!--QuoteBegin--Teflon+Aug 28 2003, 01:15 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Teflon @ Aug 28 2003, 01:15 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin--MMZ>Torak+Aug 28 2003, 01:14 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (MMZ>Torak @ Aug 28 2003, 01:14 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin--Teflon+Aug 28 2003, 02:11 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Teflon @ Aug 28 2003, 02:11 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> I guess it could be.
Frankly, I think Phase Gates, for the fact that they have the power to instantly reinforce an area with marines in SECONDS have WAAAAY too many hitpoints. It's impossible to take out a well defended outpost if there's a PG there without taking out the PG first. And if you try, suddenly tons and tons of HA marines start pouring through the PG. There's no way to stop it. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> You shoulda seen 1.0 PG's. <!--emo&???--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/confused.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='confused.gif'><!--endemo-->
IIRC building on IP's and PG's is considered an exploit. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> I've been reading this boards for a long time and a few months ago it was more or less agreed that the phase technology is probably the most useful, powerful in the game, and the phase gate should be a delicate, fragile piece of technology.
<span style='color:red'>Did you know the PG has more hitpoints then an ARMORY?</span> <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> It is easier to crush a coke can than it is to crush a pancake, am I right?
It has been said by the dev team that it is NOT an exploit to build on phase gates. Congratulations, you're still beating the same dead horse from a year or more ago. Coil needs to find this and lock it.
If this were a serious problem, developers would/should apply a telefrag to aliens on phase gates. Winning requires "exploiting" weaknesses in how the game is balanced. Just because rines can wax me from 20 meters doesn't they should knife me out of fairness.
“OMG dat haxxor just shot me with a LMG and I DIED!!! This game is so unbalanced whine whine whine”
Comments
totally <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I find it difficult to follow the logic in this line of thought when in 1.x the phase did not work/marine teleported in and got stuck in you, and seeing as this was <i><b>extremely</b></i> common knowledge if this was an exploit you would expect the team to change it so aliens got telefragged in 2.0 when standing on a phase like on IPs. So the evidence seems to suggest that this is a feature not an exploit.
That's the way I felt about the issue also, however, like I said, and like the response of half of the people who have replied, people claim it is an exploit. I'd really like to get this straightened out before I end up getting banned from a server for doing something that I consider to be a legitimate strategy.
I wish we could get a developers word on this, to put this to rest..
Flayra opted to have it telefrag everyone. Personally on our server we have a rule that pretty much everyone abides to without question, that you do not step on the PG if you are an alien, and just bite it from the edges.
If it only telefragged aliens we'd all be happy. Also in 2.01d, you can just waltz into any base without an obs and just stand on the pg cloaked until your buddies arrive.
If it only telefragged aliens we'd all be happy. Also in 2.01d, you can just waltz into any base without an obs and just stand on the pg cloaked until your buddies arrive. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
Yes I realize thats the ideal solution and so does Flayra I'm sure, but for whatever reason it doesnt work that way, Im willing to bet its cause he couldnt figure out a way to get it done.
And if you sit on a PG cloaked you would get banned from our server, posthaste. Standing on it period is lame, but dude.
Completely blocking usage means that once the aliens reach a vacant phase, marines lose that battle by default -- a lone skulk can block access of 6 HA/HMGs. While I understand the emphasis placed on having marines guard their phases, this seems like too much of a dreaded "hard counter". Compare it to a "soft counter", where the aliens would gain a significant advantage from being on the phase yet still allow the marines a chance if they hold enough other advantages.
Whenever someone used a phase in 1.0x, a check would be performed to see if there was anything standing on the other destination phase. If there was, the person/alien would be telefragged. If two people used the phase at the same time, they would both arrive at the same moment and become stuck inside one another, immobile. 2.0x phases are very similar, except that instead of telefragging they will instead deny access. Simultaneous usage still results in becoming stuck.
The way I would envision phases to have a "soft counter" would be to tweak two aspects of the phase. One, phases would only deny access if there was a <i>marine</i> standing on the other phase. An alien standing on the phase would not directly affect usage. Two, phases would <i>never</i> telefrag, friend or foe. <b>If a marine arrives on a phase that an alien is standing on, they become stuck in one another.</b>
It's undeniable that in the great majority of cases, it's a very bad idea for marines to go point-blank with aliens. To remain immobile at that range would virtually guarantee a quick death. Since warping onto a "hostile" phase puts marines into that exact situation, the result is a "soft counter" being created. Protecting the phase would still be very important, since failure could result in marines being fed one by one into a meat grinder. Yet if the marines possess overwhelming forces ready to phase, they will still be able to defend their phase.
That lone skulk sitting on the phase in the previous example would be torn to shreds by the first HA/HMG who came through. A lone Onos could easily devour the first HA/HMG who came through, though the other 5 would quickly wear him down to nothing. Two Oni sitting in umbra with Gorge support, however... meat grinder.
I do believe this is a cheap way to block a pg, not nessecarily in 2.0, but in 2.01d now with walking cloak, yeah it's cheap. When I comm, I dont want to have to put an obs at every outpost, especially when I need the res.
If the commander decides to set up some automated defenses around the phase gate, however, aliens standing on the phase no longer become an issue. Even if one walks in cloaked and parks itself on top without the turrets noticing, marines will soon realise that this phase gate no longer works and will simply ask the commander to scan it - therefore revealing the alien to the turrets.
This change was obviously made on purpose - if it wasnt it would not exist - and went through months of playtesting. If this was considered an exploit / unfair, I think the playtesters would have noticed.
This happens so often to me that if I manage to get two hives then I immeadiately halt ALL expansion until I have at least 10 turrets in each hive as any less than that is simply shrugged off by an onos. Yes it causes many complaints that 'marines can't finish' but the fact is a single onos can easily cost me 100's of res and alot of game time in a very short time.
If you want this 'feature' to stay don't expect any even moderately short marine wins.
Ahh, but it IS an issue my friend. The "lone skulk" was an example; hyperbole to demonstrate the extreme situations that hard counters can create. Let me give a more feasible picture:
Marines have an outpost at a hive. It consists of a PG (15 res), an RT (15 res, producing income), TF (15 res), and 6 turrets (60 res). Total: 105 res. The location holds great strategic significance, obviously. There is normally a LA marine guard there, but he had to run through the phase to defend elsewhere, or maybe he's getting ammo, or maybe he's been killed, or maybe he's lagged out... take your pick.
A small group of aliens seize the opportunity. A skulk and two gorges make a beeline for the PG. The skulk stands on the phase and begins chomping. The gorges stand on either side of him at an angle -- they can spray and heal all 3 at once, faster than they receive turret damage.
Moments after the attack begins, several marines try to use the other phase. They're equipped with shotguns and HA, more than enough to deal with the 20-res threat. Can they warp to their outpost and defend it? Nope, not a chance.
If you for instance had a commercial game out there with a similar problem I can guarantee that there would be a patch that would fix that problem for the sake of game balance.
Thing is that you have to have some boundries set up in any game. Just because someone discovers something which can be exploited doesn't mean that it should become a valid tactic to use. Granted, it can happen on some rare occation that you discover things which actually wouldn't hurt if they remained in the game. But this isn't one of those rare occasions. PG's are there for a purpose. If the aliens don't like a PG coming up then they either should prevent it from being built or destroy it when they get the opportunity. That's it. They shouldn't be allowed to disrupt the PG's functions in any way.
Besides, does any of you really think that Flay and co intended to make the PG blockable in the first place?
Well, it IS in the 2.0 changelog...:
-- o Infantry portals and phase gates now check to be sure there is room for spawning-players when placing them.
Though, I guess the Infantry portal checking was removed, as I have been telefragged both as alien and marine from Inf portals.
I do believe that is referring to when actually placing the building as a commander. Since before you could place a phase gate or IP in a place with a low ceiling, so marines coming in would get their heads stuck in the ceiling and have to /kill or /stuck. Now trying to build in a low clearance area would give you the red "can't build here" building when trying to place it.
Also, defend the phasegate properly. I've taken out phasegates with an observatory, tf and five turrets nearby, as a gorge without any backup. Reason? Bad turret placement. I could sneak up to the phasegate without being in line of sight of most of the turrets, once next to the phasegate only two turrets could shoot me, and when I built on the gate those started tracking the OC. 2 more OC's and that outpost started to go down. 44 res total (the 4 is for personal upgrades).
40 res against a tf, 5 sentry guns, phase and obs? Overpowered? Not at all. I've taken out double res nodes with more turrets as a zero-res skulk because the tf wasn't electrified, and the turret placement was bad. If you don't defend a base properly, expect to lose it when a clever alien spots the weakness. Don't want to lose a phasegate to an offence chamber built on it? Invest in sieges. Or you could just get someone to guard it permanently.
It seems to me that people want a zero-cost method to defend phasegates from anything but a rush from many aliens at once. All the benefits without any drawbacks. Forget it. If you want to counter those blocking tactics without having someone to guard the phasegate and with bad turret placement, it's going to cost you some res.
I find building sieges ect. in vents completely ok though. There is room there (more or less <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif'><!--endemo-->) so sure...build ahead. There's nothing that's really obstructive and in some cases it's even a high-risk to build in vents.
Phase gates are extremely powerful, and if the marines really care about protecting it, they would put up some turrets.
I would be surprised if anybody other than a n00b complained about this..
Phase gates are extremely powerful, and if the marines really care about protecting it, they would put up some turrets.
I would be surprised if anybody other than a n00b complained about this.. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
Yeah what a good idea guard the Phasegate, guard this guard that.
Ohh no marines left for attacking, thats bad luck.
By the way i also can't block movment Chambers
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->
I've found the PG's to be less then reliable means of transportation, or more iportantly, backup. The reason is simple, a single alien can disable it by standing on it. This makes alone phasegates 100% useless since any half-witted skulk can just sit on it and chew away, which is ok. It however alos makes outposts that *are* defended quite vulnerable...
Unless you want to spend a truly *obscene* amount on resources securing a position (which right now usually isn't an option for Marines most of the time), you will probably lose it if it is more then a short run from base. Why? Because it is almost impossible to protect that oh-so-vital phasegate.
Protect it with turrets you say? Most of the time you end up with a cow standing on the phasegate *while* taking out the TF and turrets. Which is why I tend to buold the PG far away from the TF so they at leats have to *chose* whether to deny reinforcements or take out the current force (turrets).
Don't let them get onos then! Fair enough. But with Umbra, even a skulk can stay alive long enough, sitting on the PG in the middle of the turrets, chewing it.
Well deny them a second hive! Ok then, but a group, actually just two or three gorges with one fatty on the PG and the other(s) healing him will do it too, and a skulk can eat the TF, PG or whatever he likes.
So far the latest attempt has been to put the TF really, really close to the PG and electrify it, to negate the umbra. This of course makes it super-vulnerable to the higher class of aliens that aren't too bothered by electricity.
It just seems like too much effort has to go into this at the moment, for and already stretched, battered and frustrated Marine team. It also doesn't seem 100% reasonable when compared to the IP's. Right now, the thing I fear most as cow is IP's! (well, not really, but they are pretty scary). Why? Because if I slip or lag while goring it, chances are that a Marine will spawn and telefrag me. Now, couldn't this be applied to the Phase Gate (again) as well? I really think it is needed, since PG's are such a vital part of (many) Marine strategies, it doesn't seem right that they can be so easily negated by Aliens regardless of hives or resources. I think that PG's being "allowed" to telefrag the same way as IP's do is a very easy fix to this conundrum.
Ps. Before you say "You need to keep Marines at your outposts" consider that the whole *point* of the PG is to *not* have to have stationary Marines everywhere, not to mention it is impossible on smaller servers.
edit: Forgot to add that dropping a chamber on it will of course also work. I probably forgot this because I think it is a somewhat "legit" way of doing it.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Since then I have realised that:
- Making the game distinguish between who to telefrag is probably hard/impossible. Meaning that most likely, either both Marines and Aliens get telefragged or noone.
- A "bump" would fill almost the same purpose (except it wouldn't make Aliens cautious).
So now I advocate that the current function (or lack thereof) is replaced with a /stuck simmilar "bump" that pushes whatever blocks the PG a bit to the side.
By the way, aliens can't block sieges. <!--emo&???--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/confused.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='confused.gif'><!--endemo-->
Comparing what each side can and cannot do is pointless.
If you argue that it's an exploit, you obviously don't know all your options as a marine commander. If you did, you'd know that you have plenty of ways to overcome this tatic if you simply do a tiny miniscule amount of planning (just like anything else in the game). One pack of mines, coupled with your normal turrets will keep that phase clear of anything except onos or 2-hive aliens.
With 2-hive aliens, it takes <b>teamwork</b> to block the phase and kill the TF. Why do you think you several aliens working together, who have already secured a second hive, should be countered by one lone phase gate?
Frankly, I think Phase Gates, for the fact that they have the power to instantly reinforce an area with marines in SECONDS have WAAAAY too many hitpoints. It's impossible to take out a well defended outpost if there's a PG there without taking out the PG first. And if you try, suddenly tons and tons of HA marines start pouring through the PG. There's no way to stop it. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
You shoulda seen 1.0 PG's. <!--emo&???--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/confused.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='confused.gif'><!--endemo-->
IIRC building on IP's and PG's is considered an exploit. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I've been reading this boards for a long time and a few months ago it was more or less agreed that the phase technology is probably the most useful, powerful in the game, and the phase gate should be a delicate, fragile piece of technology.
<span style='color:red'>Did you know the PG has more hitpoints then an ARMORY?</span> <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
It is easier to crush a coke can than it is to crush a pancake, am I right?
It has been said by the dev team that it is NOT an exploit to build on phase gates. Congratulations, you're still beating the same dead horse from a year or more ago. Coil needs to find this and lock it.
“OMG dat haxxor just shot me with a LMG and I DIED!!! This game is so unbalanced whine whine whine”
I really want to know if the developers consider this an exploit or not.