Bile Bomb Being Addressed In 2.1?
briDge
Join Date: 2003-06-21 Member: 17583Members
Join Date: 2003-06-21 Member: 17583Members
<div class="IPBDescription">please say yes...</div> I feel Bile bomb is the biggest imbalance currently. In fact, I feel it and Onos Devour/redeem are the ONLY alien imbalances (arguable skulk strength without carapace is an imbalance too but not a big one).
When commanding, NOTHING is more annoying than bile bomb. A skulk can climp into a vent, a rafter, anything above an entire marine outpost reinforced with turrets, electrification, even marines and gorge for 10 res and eliminate the entire thing. Phase gate, gone. TF, gone. Turrets, gone. Res node, gone. all without any way of touching the gorge.
the worst parts about bile mob are
a) gorge can be in places on skulks can reach by gorging after crawling there.
b) curved trajectory makes bile bombing turrets way too easy.
c) massive damage with a huge splash area.
Its basically the alien equivalent of siege. At a cost of 10 res and no pinging necessary it is far from balanced. I see two ways of balancing it. Either decrease damage and splash radius as well as make the bile bomb trajectory straight instead of curved, OR make each shot of bile bomb cost 1 res.
When commanding, NOTHING is more annoying than bile bomb. A skulk can climp into a vent, a rafter, anything above an entire marine outpost reinforced with turrets, electrification, even marines and gorge for 10 res and eliminate the entire thing. Phase gate, gone. TF, gone. Turrets, gone. Res node, gone. all without any way of touching the gorge.
the worst parts about bile mob are
a) gorge can be in places on skulks can reach by gorging after crawling there.
b) curved trajectory makes bile bombing turrets way too easy.
c) massive damage with a huge splash area.
Its basically the alien equivalent of siege. At a cost of 10 res and no pinging necessary it is far from balanced. I see two ways of balancing it. Either decrease damage and splash radius as well as make the bile bomb trajectory straight instead of curved, OR make each shot of bile bomb cost 1 res.
Comments
As for gorges in the vents, get a GL.
This would make things much, much worse... Gorges could bilebomb most marine starts with impunity.
Fact is, bile bomb is not a problem. First, the period where aliens have 2 hives is SUPPOSED to be difficult for marines. Second, the moment a base is under attack from bile bomb, you should have a marine phasing in to kick some gorge arse... And, assuming you built intelligently (namely, not right under a vent), the marine can hit the gorge if he tries to bilebomb by jumping on a building (may have to hop between them to get on taller ones).
That and gls and/or jetpacks are great counters... And a counter should not neccessarily be less in resources, as you should have them already (it's called combined arms).
I too am a marine commander. Bile bomb is the least of my problems (it is a concern, though, as bases have to be built accordingly, but not a problem). I'm not sure what you're doing, or why your marines aren't able to defend your positions, but it's not bile bomb's fault.
HHHAHHAHHAHHAAHHA.
Seriously though... If a gorge can take down one of your outposts singlehanded... you have one of two things going wrong.
1. Your marines are horribly unorganized.
2. The Comm is a complete idiot.
A single gorge is easy to take down with 1 rine.
I warn all of you!!! dont relocate there...it's...so...terrible...
IT IS AS I DECREE!
And while we're on the topic of super structure destroyers, let's talk about siege turrets.
About 65 res to get a TF with 3 siege turrets up. It can totally obliterate a hive (35 res), three defense chambers (30 res), one movement chamber (10 res), and about twelve offense chambers (120 res) with very little effort. That's almost 200 res. If marines fortify the siege spot, that may cost ~145 res (electrified/advanced TF, a phase gate, six sentry turrets, and three siege turrets). For that price, you've pretty much forced aliens out of one hive in addition to gaining access to a resource node or two that was previously occupied by aliens... which they can't rebuild until they muster up the strength to take down a siege nest.
It's called tactics - don't build RTs you can't defend. This means don't cap every node you see "just because," it'll get taken out if you don't have marines stationed nearby to kill anything that tries to eat it.
Either you'll kill the gorge or he'll redeem or something and think twice about returning. God I hate redemption.
EDIT: the immediate above post was made while I was making this one, now to address it.
You said don't cap ever node just because, well, in 1.0x, I think that was the best thing to do. Now in 2.x, every single alien can cap a res and go back to skulk in minutes, but before, as rines, capping like crazeh was the best thing to do imho because within the first minutes you'll have plenty of res coming in for upgrades, and they used to pay for themselves in less a minute and a half I believe it was. Doubtful that it would get destroyed in that amount of time. <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo-->
HHHAHHAHHAHHAAHHA.
Seriously though... If a gorge can take down one of your outposts singlehanded... you have one of two things going wrong.
1. Your marines are horribly unorganized.
2. The Comm is a complete idiot.
A single gorge is easy to take down with 1 rine. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
ns_hera, marines build in processing, skulk goes gorce in the vent above processing, nothing they can do about it.
ns_hera again, ALL of holoroom is bile bombable from the top of the tunnel entrance that leads to processing (the one with a grate in it). It is also conviniently unable to be shot at by marines.
ns_origin, nanogrid, the double res node, skulk goes gorge in one of the two vents above the res nodes, and can bile bomb anything and everything in there without being touched.
ns_eclipse, computer core, skulk goes gorge and bile bombs everything below
ns_caged, generator, skulk goes gorge on the rafters above the hive and can bile bomb everything below, again, untouchable.
ns_origin, at cargo the double res node, the two balconies above, the hanging box, and the vent off to the upper left hand corner. All are capable of bile bombing everything in the room and untouchable by marines.
I could continue the list but I have better use of my time. You sir are a moron. Try comming a game against a competent team of aliens and you will see where the imbalance in bile bomb appears. and keep in mind before you say "duh, grenade launcher" that the marine armory takes upwards of 5 minutes to upgrade, and that any commander that upgrades armory before weapons one or armor one is just going to get destroyed by skulks.
EDIT: and stop saying jetpacks and grenade launchers. I'm NOT talking about late game. I'm talking about early middle game just after the aliens have achieved the second hive.
That way 1 hive will go down,and suddenly the Gorge has wasted 35 res on a hive
EDIT : Another way is to avoid placing structures near vents :\
NS_veil - you can place a base OUTSIDE in the hall to avoid a bile bomb disaster, but the RTs might bite the dust if the marines don't respond.
Ns_hera - you can place a farm on the upper part of holo room. Now the aliens have to get on top of the roofs to bilebomb but they can still be shot from up there.
Eclipse - in southloop, don't place the base near the vent i.e. near the res tower. Place it further down the hall.
Well, that's a few I can think of. Anyway, bilebomb doesn't need to be nerfed, it needs better range. I knew the range needed work and now it's being worked on. <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo-->
you'll find thats just about everywhere. I'd enjoy taking a map and overlaying opaque colored circles in the areas that are easily bile bombable. I wouldn't be suprised if that covered 90% of the map where you would have any reason to build.
All it really takes is 1 dedicated gorge to go around to every single one of your res nodes that doesn't have a phase gate at it (even that won't stop them sometimes) and no matter how many turrets you have there it's all destroyed in short order.
Even if you manage to kill the gorge 1 or even 2 or 3 times its no big deal because it only takes 10 res to go gorge.... he will be right back into position bilebombing your res's (or just going to another res and attacking it) before you can say "Well we just killed the bilebombing gorge but he just respawned as a skulk........ and he should be done evolving by now so that means... o wait, there he is in that vent spaming our base again."
IMO its not so much that gorges get bile bomb at hive 2... I think that is perfectly fine, the balance issue is that marines cant tech fast enough to keep up with aliens newer abilities. From the way the new betas are sounding it looks like this won't be a problem in the next version due to marines tech speed/cost changes.
I think this thread was answered in the original post.
Bile bombs hurt. The fat little guy that shoots them is easily killed.
Sieges hurt, and they shoot through walls. They are usually surrounded by turret farms.
Onos are huge, gigantic, terrifying beasts with massive amounts of health, armor, and strength.
A group of 5 marines working together with shotguns puts up a veritable wall of destruction that can take out an Onos in two shots.
That's the beauty of NS. Flayra and team achieved a semblance of balance, and a world of fun, with <b>dissimilar</b> races/opponents. Of course a marine hates bile bombs. Skulks hate shotguns.
I don't think bile bomb should be nerfed. But I'm just a guy, you know?
ns_hera, marines build in processing, skulk goes gorce in the vent above processing, nothing they can do about it.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Except that you can build your base out of range of bile bomb, like below; or....
<img src='http://www.dbzoa.net/Masa/ns_hera0002.jpg' border='0' alt='user posted image'>
build in a corner of it that he can't reach, like this one.
<img src='http://www.dbzoa.net/Masa/ns_hera0003.jpg' border='0' alt='user posted image'>
Since if you were doing a siege rush, you would probably be building the TF closer to the hive so that your cannons reach easier, and since there is no point in relocating to processing anymore since the siege can't reach both hives, I fail to see why you would be there for anything besides a siege rush. Still, if something posseses you to actually want to relocate there, you can do it from the latter positions and bb will not be able to hit you.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->ns_hera again, ALL of holoroom is bile bombable from the top of the tunnel entrance that leads to processing (the one with a grate in it). It is also conviniently unable to be shot at by marines.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
That was a very stupid argument. Not only is the ground which the gorge on very accessable and easy to shoot at, all it takes is one guy periodically checking this area out to keep the gorges at bay.
<img src='http://www.dbzoa.net/Masa/ns_hera0004.jpg' border='0' alt='user posted image'>
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->ns_origin, nanogrid, the double res node, skulk goes gorge in one of the two vents above the res nodes, and can bile bomb anything and everything in there without being touched.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
By origin, I'll assume that you mean veil, since you mentioned nano-grid.
Now, for the most part I agree, this is a tricky spot; however, it takes relatively little to guard the two vents, which you can see by my post below are in line of sight from the base.
<img src='http://www.dbzoa.net/Masa/ns_veil0000.jpg' border='0' alt='user posted image'>
On top of this, you can always relocate below the ledge that the two vents come from so that the gorge has to fully expose himself to do anything besides to the res towers.
<img src='http://www.dbzoa.net/Masa/ns_veil0001.jpg' border='0' alt='user posted image'>
Last but not least, let us not forget that the aliens have a little disadvantage in Nano as well, you can siege nano from either of the corner blueish rooms in your base.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->ns_eclipse, computer core, skulk goes gorge and bile bombs everything below<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Firstly off, that BB has an incredibly limited line of fire from that position, as the overhang now limits it's options. It's incredibly easy to get out of it's range, save the res tower, as you can see below.
<img src='http://www.dbzoa.net/Masa/ns_eclipse0000.jpg' border='0' alt='user posted image'>
<img src='http://www.dbzoa.net/Masa/ns_eclipse0001.jpg' border='0' alt='user posted image'>
Secondly, if someone relocated to computer core and allowed them to get a hive up when they have to travel all the way across the map to save an attack on it, I really think the comm in this situation deserves to have some bilebomb problems anyways.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->
ns_caged, generator, skulk goes gorge on the rafters above the hive and can bile bomb everything below, again, untouchable.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Are you like blind or something? Not only do the marines have solid LoFs from nearly every part of the room to those pipes; but you can also actually <b>get up on top of the rafters/pipes</b> relatively easily as you can see in the three pics below.
<img src='http://www.dbzoa.net/Masa/ns_caged0029.jpg' border='0' alt='user posted image'>
<img src='http://www.dbzoa.net/Masa/ns_caged0030.jpg' border='0' alt='user posted image'>
<img src='http://www.dbzoa.net/Masa/ns_caged0032.jpg' border='0' alt='user posted image'>
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->ns_origin, at cargo the double res node, the two balconies above, the hanging box, and the vent off to the upper left hand corner. All are capable of bile bombing everything in the room and untouchable by marines.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
This is by far the most stupid statement I've ever heard anyone say in relation to bilebombing. Good god, do you play in servers with 100000 gravity or something? It's extremely easy to get to the box in the middle of the room by jumping as seen below.
<img src='http://www.dbzoa.net/Masa/ns_origin0000.jpg' border='0' alt='user posted image'>
But no, let us not stop there, you can actually jump onto either of the balconies from the box as seen below:
<img src='http://www.dbzoa.net/Masa/ns_origin0001.jpg' border='0' alt='user posted image'>
Anyone that knows how to use the jump key can make it to that box, and if you do play with 100000 gravity, then you can also shoot at the box or even most of the balconies by peering out of the window above.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->I could continue the list but I have better use of my time.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
It shows in the hasty, slopy, not well thought out style of your arguments. Actually, what I really should be asking is "Then why are you even arguing in the first place?"
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->You sir are a moron.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Duly noted, even though you weren't talking to me in the first place.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Try comming a game against a competent team of aliens and you will see where the imbalance in bile bomb appears.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
No comment necessary.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->and keep in mind before you say "duh, grenade launcher" that the marine armory takes upwards of 5 minutes to upgrade, and that any commander that upgrades armory before weapons one or armor one is just going to get destroyed by skulks.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Perhaps you should work on limiting their hive options then? There are a million and one (metaphorically, ofcourse) ways to prevent your base from getting bilebombed, ranging from restricting their hive options long enough to tech a little more, putting pressure where it hurts them to distract the gorges away, putting your base out of reach of impossible to get (without gls and jps that is) gorge areas, the list goes on.
Don't build near vents, you're begging for ANYTHING and EVERYTHING to come through them. Bilebomb is the least of your worries.
GLs kill gorges.
JPs get into vents rather easily
Marine towers do the same for less extreme vents and allow you to at least place mine stacks in them.
So to be honest it's not as unbalanced as, say, a turret farm with 10 turrets and 2 seiges.
The other solution of course is to have an admin say "some newb gorge is shooting through a wall" and threaten to kick anyone bilebombing through the vent on NS_lost where they'd parked their base.
<!--emo&???--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/confused.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='confused.gif'><!--endemo-->
Naming no names.
Though the bilebomb ban did give you all some respite from the vent, eh Zek? <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin.gif'><!--endemo-->
Order your marines to make a tower,and have 1 marine with mines go in and mine,gg aliens <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin.gif'><!--endemo-->
i admit i do this all the time ..its a fun tactic. and when i comm i always build way from vents. i get so angry when rines relocate to reactor room on tanith and build Turrets and TFs under that vent by the RTs.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->An **** Marine can easily keep gorges at bay...<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->*giggle*
Hmm.. I may not have played enough, but I've never been really annoyed by bile bomb... still, I'd rather they put a limit on the number of turrets in an area (which will probably be more effective anyway) than increase bile bomb power.
Edit: The 2.01c beta prevents aliens from evolving away from the hive, you can play on one of those servers if bilebombs REALLY irritate you.
Read again and you'll notice I said "if you have lots of res".
There are many cheaper solutions to that like using a pack of mines on them and having a base guard that checks each of the vents often enough to detect them.
Please, don't resort to picking out nicknacks with my post if you can't think of anything better to counter with, especially when the point you're making is false or badly-informed in the first place. I never implied that putting a tf next to the vents was the only or even the easiest/cheapest solution. Read my post again and I think you'll see that lack of validity that your post has.
Gorges are easy to kill unless they have backup or cara. The increased health and armor of 2.0 doesn't really help much by itself, since gorges are still fat and slow.
You'd like that wouldn't you?
Lazy, lazy comm.
<!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif'><!--endemo-->