Had Flayra been meaning Constellation members, I'm pretty sure it would have been spelled out. Since it wasn't, we can assume it at least means some service other than Contellation (though Constellation may be involved as well)
My concern was along the lines of getting a whole bunch of brand new players in at once, who don't know what they're doing, and don't have anybody present to guide them. NS is not an easy game to just jump in and play without someone being willing to help out. I'm still catching flak when the Gorge/Commander is saying "Go <somewhere>" and, frankly, I have no idea where that is or how to get there, so it looks like I'm ignoring him. (When you don't know the map, hivesight/waypoints aren't a huge help either) Imagine this situation with a server full of first time players.
My fear is that this is what will happen, and that the players, not being able to really get their feet under them will simply go, "Huh.. too confusing" and leave. If there's guidance available for these beta-testers though.. a good com, a good gorge, something like that, then you could probably move my vote to the unqualified yes.
has it ever been tested with 12vs12 and "simulated brainless organisation" that simulates publics with "noob gorges and noob comms" <!--emo&???--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/confused.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='confused.gif'><!--endemo-->
<!--QuoteBegin--coil+Jul 21 2003, 08:12 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (coil @ Jul 21 2003, 08:12 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> He's [Flayra] more asking if you'd be upset if NS 2.0 were opened up a few days early to a <b>select group which might or might not include you. </b> <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> What then, may i ask, were the PTs and Vets?
I've been excluded from alot up till now. I dare say my feelings will be hurt if you shuut me out for a whole 3!!!11! more days. As far as being betrayed goes, i hardly feel that letting people that want it the most pay for it is betrayal. It would be betrayal to leave the community over 3 days of letting new people find out about NS. I think its a great idea.
I'll have to give this more thought... but I immediately wondered about this,
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->This beta would get 2.0 out to a wider group for testing (making the 31st public release even better)<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
What improvements can you make releasing a semi-open beta 3 days earlier to a group of people who are only semi-familair with NS? Wouldn't most of these people need at least a couple of weeks to get to know the game before they can become worthwhile beta-testers?
This can only help out NS. There is the whole "selling out" notion that many people subscribe to, but see Coil's comments on that above.
When it comes down to it, I trust Flayra, and more importantly, I *respect* him. As such, I trust him to make good decisions, and if he considering this, then it is probably either necessary, or a good idea. Besides, he's actually asking us how we feel about it.
He has put his heart and soul into this for a long time now, and if it helps to expand the playerbase, and get more people to notice it, then that's good in my book. If this happens to help the Devs recoup some of the blood, sweat, and tears put into this game, then so much the better.
I really don't understand people getting upset or feeling betrayed. So some people might get it a few days earlier. This can only make it a better game, and if you can't hack 3 days, then you've got other problems, I suspect... <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo-->
Lastly, it *is* his game, and he can do pretty much what he would like with it. So many of us have enjoyed it for so long, and free of charge, that I personally have no problem helping out however I can, even if that's just me waiting patiently while some others playtest it for a couple of days. I mean, we watch the PTs and Vets do it all the time, right? <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo-->
Again, I trust Flayra, and will support his decision no matter what he chooses. We already owe him too much for the endless hours of fun he has provided us by letting us share in his own private dream...
I think the best way for Flay to do this would be to release a semi-open beta to all constellation members and gamespy. If he did that, no fan's feelings would be hurt, and there would be an existing community to back up the <b>hordes</b> of newbs as they feel out the game.
I mean, there needs to be more than just vets and PT's who help the gamespy nubs feel out the game, right? There just isn't enough vets and PT's to go around for everyone.
Again, if Flay were to make NS open to all constellation members and gamespy members, it would be an uber sweet move.
For me its kinda like fileplanet giving its decent server space to subscribers. I love NS, a lot but times are rough with me starting college so...no. This might work for people who can spare the loot, but I just can't....and for others in this situation it might be unfair. And so far, NS has always been about BALANCE. See the correlation? <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin.gif'><!--endemo-->
<!--QuoteBegin--Fantasmo+Jul 21 2003, 08:57 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Fantasmo @ Jul 21 2003, 08:57 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->What improvements can you make releasing a semi-open beta 3 days earlier to a group of people who are only semi-familair with NS? Wouldn't most of these people need at least a couple of weeks to get to know the game before they can become worthwhile beta-testers?<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> I think he means compatability issues, crashing bugs, etc. not play balancing.
<!--QuoteBegin--JazzX+Jul 21 2003, 08:23 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (JazzX @ Jul 21 2003, 08:23 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->When I first read the poll I assumed, like Forlorn did, that "only be open to paid members of a certain service" was a reference to Constellation. As such I said I thought it sounded like a great idea and voted: "Yes! Anything to help the devs and community!" However after reading Coil's post (and after reading Flayra's original post again) I'm also inclined to believe it is not a reference to Constellation and as such I have far more mixed feelings about the idea.
Looking at it objectively I think you have to conclude that distributing NS 2.0 through one of the paid subscriber sites is a <b>great</b> idea. It would distrubute the game to a playerbase that plays lots of games, otherwise why would you subscribe to one of the services? And as a general rule these are gamers who have the means and motivation that could help spread the word to other players faster than anything else.
However the idea really bugs me on a personal level, as someone who spends hours upon hours playing the game every week, and spends even more time on activities related to NS. Stuff like hanging out with other players in IRC, reading forum posts, dissecting changelogs for my own forums, and helping other players play the game. The idea that a group of gamers that don't do this stuff would be able to play 2.0 before me is aggravating on a purely selfish level.
Mixed feelings indeed, as it makes tons of sense and could be very benefitial to both the community and the game, but it would upset me. For myself I think the benefits would outweigh the costs and say go for it. <b>However</b> I have a feeling that I'm in a minority, among players in a similar situation, in my overall conclusion.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
JazzX, you really couldn't have worded it better. Your post here perfectly describes the dilemma. Yes, it makes sense rationally, but also, yes, it will to alienate die-hard community members.
Call it a beta test or whatever but I think its a pretty simple formula. NS Devs give a pay for play (or download) service some exclusive content for a period of time in exchange for them advertising the heck out of it. Its possibly a win-win in that the service gains subscriber and NS gains publicity. Keeps the old money train rolling.
Personally I find pay for play (or download) services carrying mod content to be somewhat contrary to the spirit of mods. NS is essentially shareware at this point, you can, if you chose, send the developer money that will incentivize him to produce more product similar to the one you enjoyed enough to pay for. I signed up for Constellation myself and its money well spent in my opinion. However, as a contributing member of the community, I would feel somewhat slighted if the new content I helped (in a very small way) to underwrite was available only to another group of people (Gamespy users, Fileplanet subscribers *BLEH*) for some period of time.
All that said I just bought a house and I'll be moving and whatnot for the next week or two so I probably won't get to play until after 7/31 anyway <!--emo&;)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/wink.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='wink.gif'><!--endemo-->
I'm for it if it helps aid the development. But if you're going to do this, you have to do something for all of us. I propose you make those little icons coming in v2.0 available to everyone and even the ability to add custom ones (except the ones that have special meaning, of course). <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin.gif'><!--endemo--> It might sound selfish but it's a small price to pay for avoiding the alienation (alien nation?) of those who can't become constellation members and plus the constellation members are getting an early release anyway.
if this is for constelation members only then im againsted this, its seems to me like its saying pay for ns and u get it a few days early... thought NS was supposed to be a free game?
i dont think alot of you understand this... Its not constellation. It would be released via something like fileplanet, to subscribers only a few days early.
I said No, but I'd get over it. I am 95% certain based on Flayra's phrasing that this is not for Constellation, but something like Fileplanet as coil suggested(Fileplanet has this kind of thing for subscribers a lot). The objective is not to generate income for the devs, but to create exposure for NS shortly before 2.0 comes out and thus hopefully increase the playerbase and popularity overall(Flayra said all this in his post, nothing related to money). Giving it to Constellation members wouldn't do a damn thing for publicity.
All it is is a PR stunt. I'm not saying there's anything wrong with that, but there's no way it would really lead to improved balance due to feedback from beta newbies in the last couple of days. If this sort of thing went on Fileplanet, it would be on the front page in big letters and would serve as an extremely high traffic advertisement for NS, both to subscribers and non. If you want an example go to <a href='http://www.fileplanet.com' target='_blank'>Fileplanet</a> right now and look what they're doing with Planetside. More similar to what Flayra is considering for NS is the AO Shadowlands beta offer a little ways down the page.
Don't look into it any deeper than what it is; an advertisement for NS that a very large number of people will see and could possibly add a lot of popularity and support to the game. Flayra has expressed an interest in eventually taking NS retail like CS and DoD, and something like this is an extremely good way to gain support for the idea. While I have my doubts about letting total newbies to the game into the beta, I honestly doubt that they'll really have any influence on the final product in the last couple of days.
Bah, I can't believe how many people are insulted/offended/gotten their twisties up over someone else getting to play a whole 3 days earlier. We've been waiting for months now.. what's 3 days?
It's lots of free publicity for NS, and it <b>doesn't impact you</b>. So I don't understand why people are muttering sell-out and that NS should be free. NS should be the best it can be.. and if this helps it.. then lets do it.
locallyunsceneFeeder of TrollsJoin Date: 2002-12-25Member: 11528Members, Constellation
*sigh* like everyone else I had a love hate relationship with idea. I kinda hoped Flayra would administer the medicine in spite of the patient, and go through with it. I have no love for fileplanet/gamespot; paying for just information on a product that I'm thinking of buying bothers me. That aside it wouldn't hurt NS. Bugs would be found out, alliances would be forged. Despite my misgivings I voted. Yes, anything to help the community. I had hoped Flayra would do the same, but alas his heart is too strong to turn his back on his supporters.
i think its a very selfish to say that youll be betrayed if the NS team does give v2.0 to a few people 3 or 4 days earlier. I mean, If this is done this way its for the expansion of NS so that it can get more publicity and played by even more pple. You think its wrong to make NS even a popular game if theres a posiblity for it?
Im an old member here and i dont really mind, i want the best for NS and if giving Gamespy NS v2.0 3 days or 4 before public realease will help the mod in ANY way, please doit.
I think this idea could have had other problems besides agitating people who don't want others to play the game first. By allowing complete newbies to the game into the beta servers during the final days, it would be considerably more difficult to get any real testing done. I assume Flayra would know better than to listen to the balance complaints of someone who's been playing the game for 2 days, but adding newbies into the mix would completely throw off balance in the games and make it much harder for any real balance progress to be made during that time(though by then it will probably be more finalizing and bug fixing, assuming any more patches would go in at all).
Bah o well flayra at least you tried.... man if i could only play 2.0 to get some strats <!--emo&::marine::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/marine.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='marine.gif'><!--endemo-->
\o/ coil <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif'><!--endemo--> as long as we still get the same polish for the release im happy <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo-->
Comments
Had Flayra been meaning Constellation members, I'm pretty sure it would have been spelled out. Since it wasn't, we can assume it at least means some service other than Contellation (though Constellation may be involved as well)
My concern was along the lines of getting a whole bunch of brand new players in at once, who don't know what they're doing, and don't have anybody present to guide them. NS is not an easy game to just jump in and play without someone being willing to help out. I'm still catching flak when the Gorge/Commander is saying "Go <somewhere>" and, frankly, I have no idea where that is or how to get there, so it looks like I'm ignoring him. (When you don't know the map, hivesight/waypoints aren't a huge help either) Imagine this situation with a server full of first time players.
My fear is that this is what will happen, and that the players, not being able to really get their feet under them will simply go, "Huh.. too confusing" and leave. If there's guidance available for these beta-testers though.. a good com, a good gorge, something like that, then you could probably move my vote to the unqualified yes.
Sadly Im a poor guy :/
What then, may i ask, were the PTs and Vets?
I've been excluded from alot up till now. I dare say my feelings will be hurt if you shuut me out for a whole 3!!!11! more days. As far as being betrayed goes, i hardly feel that letting people that want it the most pay for it is betrayal. It would be betrayal to leave the community over 3 days of letting new people find out about NS. I think its a great idea.
<b>Yes.</b>
/me poeks Coil <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif'><!--endemo-->
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->This beta would get 2.0 out to a wider group for testing (making the 31st public release even better)<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
What improvements can you make releasing a semi-open beta 3 days earlier to a group of people who are only semi-familair with NS? Wouldn't most of these people need at least a couple of weeks to get to know the game before they can become worthwhile beta-testers?
When it comes down to it, I trust Flayra, and more importantly, I *respect* him. As such, I trust him to make good decisions, and if he considering this, then it is probably either necessary, or a good idea. Besides, he's actually asking us how we feel about it.
He has put his heart and soul into this for a long time now, and if it helps to expand the playerbase, and get more people to notice it, then that's good in my book. If this happens to help the Devs recoup some of the blood, sweat, and tears put into this game, then so much the better.
I really don't understand people getting upset or feeling betrayed. So some people might get it a few days earlier. This can only make it a better game, and if you can't hack 3 days, then you've got other problems, I suspect... <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo-->
Lastly, it *is* his game, and he can do pretty much what he would like with it. So many of us have enjoyed it for so long, and free of charge, that I personally have no problem helping out however I can, even if that's just me waiting patiently while some others playtest it for a couple of days. I mean, we watch the PTs and Vets do it all the time, right? <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo-->
Again, I trust Flayra, and will support his decision no matter what he chooses. We already owe him too much for the endless hours of fun he has provided us by letting us share in his own private dream...
Twilight
I mean, there needs to be more than just vets and PT's who help the gamespy nubs feel out the game, right? There just isn't enough vets and PT's to go around for everyone.
Again, if Flay were to make NS open to all constellation members and gamespy members, it would be an uber sweet move.
I think he means compatability issues, crashing bugs, etc. not play balancing.
Max
Looking at it objectively I think you have to conclude that distributing NS 2.0 through one of the paid subscriber sites is a <b>great</b> idea. It would distrubute the game to a playerbase that plays lots of games, otherwise why would you subscribe to one of the services? And as a general rule these are gamers who have the means and motivation that could help spread the word to other players faster than anything else.
However the idea really bugs me on a personal level, as someone who spends hours upon hours playing the game every week, and spends even more time on activities related to NS. Stuff like hanging out with other players in IRC, reading forum posts, dissecting changelogs for my own forums, and helping other players play the game. The idea that a group of gamers that don't do this stuff would be able to play 2.0 before me is aggravating on a purely selfish level.
Mixed feelings indeed, as it makes tons of sense and could be very benefitial to both the community and the game, but it would upset me. For myself I think the benefits would outweigh the costs and say go for it. <b>However</b> I have a feeling that I'm in a minority, among players in a similar situation, in my overall conclusion.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
JazzX, you really couldn't have worded it better. Your post here perfectly describes the dilemma. Yes, it makes sense rationally, but also, yes, it will to alienate die-hard community members.
Personally I find pay for play (or download) services carrying mod content to be somewhat contrary to the spirit of mods. NS is essentially shareware at this point, you can, if you chose, send the developer money that will incentivize him to produce more product similar to the one you enjoyed enough to pay for. I signed up for Constellation myself and its money well spent in my opinion. However, as a contributing member of the community, I would feel somewhat slighted if the new content I helped (in a very small way) to underwrite was available only to another group of people (Gamespy users, Fileplanet subscribers *BLEH*) for some period of time.
All that said I just bought a house and I'll be moving and whatnot for the next week or two so I probably won't get to play until after 7/31 anyway <!--emo&;)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/wink.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='wink.gif'><!--endemo-->
Is my idea pointless? Yes. But it's uber-cool.
EDIT: i am dumb.... or i cant see
All it is is a PR stunt. I'm not saying there's anything wrong with that, but there's no way it would really lead to improved balance due to feedback from beta newbies in the last couple of days. If this sort of thing went on Fileplanet, it would be on the front page in big letters and would serve as an extremely high traffic advertisement for NS, both to subscribers and non. If you want an example go to <a href='http://www.fileplanet.com' target='_blank'>Fileplanet</a> right now and look what they're doing with Planetside. More similar to what Flayra is considering for NS is the AO Shadowlands beta offer a little ways down the page.
Don't look into it any deeper than what it is; an advertisement for NS that a very large number of people will see and could possibly add a lot of popularity and support to the game. Flayra has expressed an interest in eventually taking NS retail like CS and DoD, and something like this is an extremely good way to gain support for the idea. While I have my doubts about letting total newbies to the game into the beta, I honestly doubt that they'll really have any influence on the final product in the last couple of days.
It's lots of free publicity for NS, and it <b>doesn't impact you</b>. So I don't understand why people are muttering sell-out and that NS should be free. NS should be the best it can be.. and if this helps it.. then lets do it.
Sorry, too much crack this morning. I'll not make you all read this.
Im an old member here and i dont really mind, i want the best for NS and if giving Gamespy NS v2.0 3 days or 4 before public realease will help the mod in ANY way, please doit.
<span style='color:purple'>*coil hugs Flayra</span>
'sall good, man. "Just keep swimming." (: